Whitington Buffalo Strategy

[TXGunNut]

I've rushed this project a bit and have no idea my chances of success but I've run out of time. Latest load looked pretty good at the range today but the wind was swirling around and made my group a bit wide. Best guess is this load is good for 2moa at an average of 1173 fps, 20 fps ES using the BACO Money 459-530 boolit. Would have liked to tweak this load but it's what I have.
Here's what I've figured out; I have maybe 50 minutes of adjustment available on my Shaver long range sight. Looks like I'll need about three times that. I was able to hit the buff several years ago with a 30-06 by holding way up in the trees but was wondering if there's a better way to go about it.
Any suggestions?

[Mk42gunner]

Any windage adjustment on the rear sight? Failing that, what about drifting the whole front sight?

With a threaded sight pusher, you may be able to move it a repeatable amount.

These are just ideas, and they may be stupid. I have not fired in any long range competitions.

Robert

[sharpsguy]

You will probably need another rear sight to reach the buffalo. It will take somewhere around 139 to 141 minutes of elevation ABOVE your 100 yard zero to reach 1000 yards. IIRC, the buffalo at Raton is a bit beyond 1K. A viable alternative is the buckhorn and blade ladder sight that comes on a Shiloh Sharps. I can reach 1200 yards with mine with my 45-70.

[TXGunNut]

Any windage adjustment on the rear sight? Failing that, what about drifting the whole front sight?

With a threaded sight pusher, you may be able to move it a repeatable amount.

These are just ideas, and they may be stupid. I have not fired in any long range competitions.

Robert

Windage is fine, elevation is where I'm up short.

[Nobade]

A piece of tape with a line marked on it, somewhere on the barrel to line up your rear sight with while you hold the front on the target? Quick and easy, works surprisingly well.

-Nobade

[TXGunNut]

You will probably need another rear sight to reach the buffalo. It will take somewhere around 139 to 141 minutes of elevation ABOVE your 100 yard zero to reach 1000 yards. IIRC, the buffalo at Raton is a bit beyond 1K. A viable alternative is the buckhorn and blade ladder sight that comes on a Shiloh Sharps. I can reach 1200 yards with mine with my 45-70.

I think the Whittington buffalo is 1183 yards and I think I'll need just over 150 minutes to reach him holding on steel. Not sure what the BC of this boolit is, I suspect my Labradar can tell me but I'm still learning all it's tricks.

[TXGunNut]

A piece of tape with a line marked on it, somewhere on the barrel to line up your rear sight with while you hold the front on the target? Quick and easy, works surprisingly well.

-Nobade


Nice adaptation of an Uncle Elmer trick, hadn't thought of that. Will definitely see if I can make that work, thanks!

[Chill Wills]

I think the Whittington buffalo is 1183 yards and I think I'll need just over 150 minutes to reach him holding on steel. Not sure what the BC of this boolit is, I suspect my Labradar can tell me but I'm still learning all it's tricks.

The Buffalo is 1123y and I will guess you will need 150 - 160 minutes over 100y zero. We can start a pool :-) :kidding:
You are right about the Bc affecting what you need to put in but you can climb your way into the hits.

There are about two classes of 500+ grain 45 cal bullets and their Bc's. Regular noses at .400Bc and the newer longrange DanT money (or something almost like it) making Bc's in or near the .5's


You write you have a LR rear sight - a Shaver. That will get you there in spades. Did I misunderstand?

[Gunlaker]

If there is a betting pool I'd say 160 or so over the 100 yard setting :-)

I would be really surprised if your Shaver LR sight cn't do that though.

I shoot a few of the different BACO money bullets. Are you using the 459535M1 by any chance? In my .45-90, in 16:1 I seem to get decent setting estimates using .490 as a BC in the free JBM Ballistics software. At least out to 880 yards at our gongs it is within a couple of minutes for elevation. I'm launching them at around 100 fps or so faster than you though.

Chris.

[country gent]

The Lee shaver long range sight should have plenty of elevation I think the long ranges staff is around 5" tall the mid range version may leave you short of 1100 yds. the Mid range staff is around 3"There are ballistics programs on line that allow you to punch in bullet shape and weight along with velocity at 2 or more distances to get an accurate BC for the bullet then you can use the velocity and BC in the program or another to make a drop chart. The big issue will be the front sights hieght and where the rear sight is at for 100 yd or 200yd zero. Also before going to raton crank the sight uto your proposed zero and a little and set up in position. Sometimes working at the "upper end" of the staff the staff needs to be adjusted a little farther forward to see a round appeture due to hieght and angle of sights from rear to front. My one rifle was fine at 500 but much farhter and I could barely see thru the apeture. I dont care for holding off ( its to hard to duplicate the sight picture each shot, but sometimes its neccesary. Another trick when you get the numbers is to also get how high the shot is above zero at the longest range available and make a tall target with aiming bull at bottom and a line at the bullets path above sight line. This will give a good idea if you can reach it with your sight by shooting groups and adjusting up to bullets impacting at the line above the aiming point. These bullets loose little velocity over distance but do require accurate range estimation and trajectory.

[TXGunNut]

I'm using the BACO 459535M3 mould. Don't know the BC but suspect my Labradar does; it measured velocity at three points and @ 100 yards so it should be able to determine BC.
For pool purposes I'm taking 40 rounds and my spotter's kitchen pass got revoked. ;-

[rfd]

how's the tang sight mounted - facing forward on the base for maximum height?

http://i.imgur.com/QUWJais.jpg

[Don McDowell]

You're going to have to be able to adjust that sight up to 250 at minimum.

[Chill Wills]

You're going to have to be able to adjust that sight up to 250 at minimum.

Hey Don, Happy 4th of July! So, I know you mean a sight with 250 usable on the staff. But, to get you in the "pool" :-) give us a number up from 100y.

For me I guessed 150 - 160 but now knowing the bullet is a money I would go with my lower range 150 minutes above 100y zero.

So TxGunNut, you gotta let Brent know before leave Raton because I don't get there for the BPCR events until the 13th - 14th of July.
-Michael Rix

[TXGunNut]

Hey Don, Happy 4th of July! So, I know you mean a sight with 250 usable on the staff. But, to get you in the "pool" :-) give us a number up from 100y.

For me I guessed 150 - 160 but now knowing the bullet is a money I would go with my lower range 150 minutes above 100y zero.

So TxGunNut, you gotta let Brent know before leave Raton because I don't get there for the BPCR events until the 13th - 14th of July.
-Michael Rix

That's what I SWAG'd as well, Chill Wills, good to know I'm in the ballpark. Looking forward to meeting Brent, always a pleasure to meet board members. Meeting Freightman for lunch in Amarillo tomorrow. Pretty sure I'll run out of elevation on this sight so a better pool would be how many shots it takes for me to walk a round in on the buff...or IF I even pull it off. ;-) I'll probably be passing thru again on the 12th, not sure I'll stop. Will be last leg of my journey and it will be a long day.
One thing I've learned in the past few months is these BPCR rounds are a labor of love to manufacture and range test. I simply didn't have the time to properly develop a load for this rifle. I'm thankful for all the help I got here but bottom line is it takes a lot of loading bench time and range time to get to know one of these rifles and I'm only beginning to understand how they work.
Guess I better get into the loading room, those cases aren't going to load themselves!

[country gent]

TX Put together a good load as consistnt as you can, make sure it is right with your testing and notes. Then the rest is up to you have confidence that you can do it and run with it. Mindset and confidence are more important that having the very best accurate load on the line. Once you decide in your mind something is to hard, you cant do it, or its to much for you it is. The mind mkes it true. Your going to Raton Your equiped with a rifle and load more than capable of doing it, you are more than capable of hitting that buffalo and your going to do it. That is the mind set you need to go in with. Above all have fun make new friends and enjoy yourself.. Do your best and let it go at that. Getting upset or frustrated is a downhill spiral that never ends well.

[TXGunNut]

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Country Gent. That's my approach but on paper I'm in a bit over my head. That's what makes it a challenge and will keep it fun. If I didn't think I could pull it off I wouldn't have put this much time into the project.

[Don McDowell]

Chill wills Happy 4th! Sounds like you had a good match Saturday. Never shot at 100,,, so my Wag would be 200-230 above the 100 setting.

[Gunlaker]

Ok, Michael, can I re-enter my guess for the pool? I'm going to go for 170 above the 100 yard zero. I just put the numbers into JBM ballistics and given that it's well past 1000, and a relatively low velocity, I revised my guess. :-)

TXGunNut I wouldn't worry too much about the exact BC. If you can get your first shot to be correct elevation-wise to within 5-10 minutes you'll be on pretty fast as long as your velocities are consistent. For my standard groove Money bullet .490 seems to be a good guess, and for my .45 cal paper patch bullets .510 seems to give very close results.

What is your 100 yd zero anyway?

Chris.

[Mk42gunner]

I've rushed this project a bit and have no idea my chances of success but I've run out of time. Latest load looked pretty good at the range today but the wind was swirling around and made my group a bit wide. Best guess is this load is good for 2moa at an average of 1173 fps, 20 fps ES using the BACO Money 459-530 boolit. Would have liked to tweak this load but it's what I have.
Here's what I've figured out; I have maybe 50 minutes of adjustment available on my Shaver long range sight. Looks like I'll need about three times that. I was able to hit the buff several years ago with a 30-06 by holding way up in the trees but was wondering if there's a better way to go about it.
Any suggestions?


Windage is fine, elevation is where I'm up short.

Boy do I feel foolish. Some how I got the idea you were fine for elevation but needed more windage adjustment, and had a windage adjustable front sight.

A shorter front sight will give more elevation with your present rear sight. Whether this is an acceptable option or not, I don't know.

Good luck,

Robert

[Gunlaker]

Ok, Michael, can I re-enter my guess for the pool? I'm going to go for 170 above the 100 yard zero. I just put the numbers into JBM ballistics and given that it's well past 1000, and a relatively low velocity, I revised my guess. :-)

TXGunNut I wouldn't worry too much about the exact BC. If you can get your first shot to be correct elevation-wise to within 5-10 minutes you'll be on pretty fast as long as your velocities are consistent. For my standard groove Money bullet .490 seems to be a good guess, and for my .45 cal paper patch bullets .510 seems to give very close results.

What is your 100 yd zero anyway?

Chris.

[725]

This way cool. Best of luck on the range. If you are looking at 160 +/- MOA for a 530 gr boolit at 1120 fps at 1,000 yards, what do you figure as a ballpark MOA adjustment for that boolit at 500 yards? (same velocity)

I'm just as new as a newborn babe in this long range game and cast boolits. My first attempts will be a 500 gr boolit at 500 yards with about that same velocity. Probably have to paper patch my mold as it's too small for a good fit.

Good luck at your 1000 yard buffalo.

[country gent]

On a 34" barrel its probably around .010 - .013 movement per minute so 160 mins is arounf 1.920 movement up I figured .012 for this number. A shorter front sight may help some but wont be able to make up for all of it. And getting the new sight and rezeroed in time will be hard to imposible. Even a very short post in the appeture and shorter appeture may only be good for 10-15 mins reduction. At this point learn what the sight picture needed looks like with the front appeture baove the target. I might try a cross hair insret or post for this. A post from the top down apeture might be really nice since it wouldnt block out the target when holding high. The tall traget mentioned earlier might help some here but wont give the true look of full distance. 10' -12' tall target at 200 yds should allow for you to raise sight and see where you are elevation wise though. Aiming point at the bottom groups above to point given by ballistics program as to bullet path above 200 yard zero or 100 yard zero. I have done this before for new long range rifles and it does get you very close. It also shows if the sight is out of square as windage mkes a big change going up that much.

[Lead pot]

I put several shots on that buff using my .50 so I have a unfair advantage :smile: but keep in mind your shooting at an incline on him and that will lower your elevation some :smile:

But I will say that my .44-77 using the Lawrence barrel sights the slide is a hair above the #5 on that staff and that will put 6 out of 10 on that buff :-)

Kurt

[TXGunNut]

Gunlaker-my 100 yard zero is about 3.5 minutes above the bottom of the sight.
I loaded 20 of the Money boolits, 20 of the Lyman 457125. Lyman boolit allows me to load an additional 2grs of powder for the same OAL and compression.

[TXGunNut]

Forgot to mention, Sharps Collectors will be at the Winchester Arms Collectors' Assn show in Cody next weekend. Will be nice to see some old original Sharps rifles.

[Gunlaker]

Gunlaker-my 100 yard zero is about 3.5 minutes above the bottom of the sight. I loaded 20 of the Money boolits, 20 of the Lyman 457125. Lyman boolit allows me to load an additional 2grs of powder for the same OAL and compression.You should have piles of elevation to reach that buffalo then I would think. Even if my guess was right then you'd need 173 minutes. I just dug my deluxe Shaver LR sight out of the parts box and the staff goes up to 3.25". I think someone mentioned that you are shooting a 34" barreled Sharps? That would put your sight radius at around 38", so one minute of angle is not much more than 0.01" on the sight. My guestimate would put you around 1.73x38/36=1.83 on your sight staff. Sometimes its easier to spot misses that are short, depending on the backstop so you might want to start 10 points lower.Chris.

[Lead pot]

My sight setting with the .50 was 208. I don't have a 100 yard setting for my .50 but the 200 is 43 that would make it 165. Take off another 11 to get down to 100 from 200 that would make 176 pretty close added to a 100 yard setting.

[TXGunNut]

Barrel is 30", Gunlaker. Was relying on the instructions included with my Shaver (Economy) sight for MOA available. I have right at 3" of adjustment available above my 100 yd setting. Using that formula I need to come up 1.63" from my 100 yard setting? My 457125 load starts out a bit faster but suspect the POI will be close to the Money boolit.

[Don McDowell]

You would be well advised to start at about 190 on the staff, and hope who ever is spotting for you can pick up the bullet strike. My 45-90 doing a touch over 1300 needs 195 give or take just to get to 1000. After 1000 yds. those bullets really start to drop.
Will be interesting to see what you come up with for sight settings.

[Don McDowell]

Forecast looks like temps will be in the 90's and humidity running about 20 %, mirage is going to make trying to see that thing really fun. The one thing going in your favor the winds are forecast out of the south at 15 give or take, so that should give you a bit of bullet lift. It's also liable to give a couple of weird vortexes coming off the trees to the west of the silhouette range.

[Chill Wills]

Up to this point I have been going off the top of my head - pointy as it is.....
So, this got interesting.

What follows is filed in the for what it is worth department.


I looked up a year (2001) in my notes, I shot a Winchester highwall 45-70 with 30inch barrel in the Creedmoor Nationals with a bullet that might of had a Bc of 0.45 - NEI bullet known as the 349J

My 200meter chicken sights are 36 so back at 100y might be 25 (I don't shoot 100y and don't have records)
My 800y is 125
My 900y is 138
My 1000y- 156
maybe another 25 to get to the 1123y buffalo is 181

181
-25
-----
156 minutes from 100y to 1123y with my rifle and loads of 2001

It sure could be something else for someone else but that is about as close as I can apply facts to.
All the best of luck and fun - and walk them in - it's easy.

[Don McDowell]

It would be quick enough to take a couple pokes at a ram swinger get a good zero on that then add about 12 minutes per 100 yds, or 72 minutes from that setting and watch for the bullet strike and walk then on in.

[kokomokid]

I used my ram setting, had to as my adjusting screw got bent in comptetion day before. Picked out a rock and tree above and was on the buff in three shots and three in a row hits on a calm morning. In hindsight I had a big advantage over my shooting partner as I had a cheek rest and he sort of had a chin rest with his mouth wide open.
As for the sight I gave it to Baldwin and six days later when I got home it was in the mail box good as new.

[Gunlaker]

Well we have lots of guesses anyway :-).

Michael your highwall's sight settings at 1000 are within a couple of minutes of the settings for my 32" .45-90 highwall. I've never shot any of my Sharps rifles past 880 yards, but based on the comeups, it would take about 1.65" for my .45-110 at 1000. Both shoot money bullets at 1350-1360 fps.

Either way, the comeups will still be good for either rifle.

TxGunNut, you have a number of guesses from a few sources. Don's idea of shooting at a ram to give you an idea of how close you are to the predicted values is a good thing. If you have a spotter with a good scope they should be able to get you on target pretty fast. Even if you are low by 20 minutes elevation, it'll just take a few extra shots.

With your 30" barrel you should have a sight radius of about 34" which means that each minute of angle will take just little less than 0.01" on your sight. Regardless, I'm sure you'll get on target fast and have fun doing it :-)

Chris.

[Chill Wills]

As for the sight I gave it to Baldwin and six days later when I got home it was in the mail box good as new.

I know what you mean about the Baldwin good service - we are IN the good ol' days or Golden Age of great sight makers. There are so many to choose from. Well made and often small shop produced.

I have a bunch of Steve Baldwin sight. I am not sure how I ended up with them all except I don't like swapping them around or I got them with a rifle I picked up. A few as prizes given at a match.
Anyway - the point is; Steve Baldwin and his sights are great and your story is like every other one I hear about Steve. He will send a stranger a sight on a phone call and ask for payment after you receive the sight in the mail. If it has a problem, or more likely, we damage it, he will fix it free, what ever it takes. He is personally always cheerful and it is just hard not to want do business with him.
And his sights, he only makes one grade of sight - best quality.

Hmmm - do I sound like an infomercial or what? Man - did I ever get off topic!

[Tom Myers]

Gunlaker-my 100 yard zero is about 3.5 minutes above the bottom of the sight.
I loaded 20 of the Money boolits, 20 of the Lyman 457125. Lyman boolit allows me to load an additional 2grs of powder for the same OAL and compression.

I might as well put my 2 cents in.

Using the Precision Cast Bullet Design ~ Advanced (http://www.tmtpages.com/#advanced) software, these are the dimensions of the BACO Money bullet that I scaled from the Buffalo Arms catalog.

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/BufArmsBulletTraj/Buffalo_Arms_.460-_525_gr._Money_Sketch.Jpg

I set up the bullet dimensions in the Precision Ballistics (http://www.tmtpages.com/basbal/bal.htm) Cast Bullet database.

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/BufArmsBulletTraj/MoneyBulletEditBullet.png

Then Used the Precision G1 Ballistic Coefficient Estimator (http://www.tmtpages.com/cast_bc.htm)to estimate the ballistic coefficient.

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/BufArmsBulletTraj/MoneyBulletCalcBC.png

And set up the Sight Radius, sight height Ranges, some wind vectors and Elevation in the Precision Ballistics Software Module (http://www.tmtpages.com/#ballistics)(note the considerable increase in the ballistic coefficient at Raton's 6,680 ft. elevation)

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/BufArmsBulletTraj/MoneyBulletInitData.png

The Bullet Drop and Trajectory at various ranges out to 1200 yards.

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/BufArmsBulletTraj/MoneyBulletTraj.png

Using your 100 yard Zero or 3.5 minutes (3.25) points, These are the estimated sight setting values for the ranges up to 1200 yards.

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/BufArmsBulletTraj/MoneyBulletSightSettingst.png

The Estimated wind deflection values for 90 degree side winds at the various ranges.

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/BufArmsBulletTraj/MoneyBulletSideWind.png

Estimated Head and Tail Wind effects on bullet strike values at the various ranges.

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/BufArmsBulletTraj/MoneyBulletHead-Tail-Wind.png

Hope this is of some help.

[Chill Wills]

Tom - your input is always great. The software is over my head.
The Buffalo yardage value is a little long. At Raton the distance to the target is 1123 if I am not mistaken. Which is often the case as I slip into senility. So, perhaps something between 149 and 164 less 3.

I'm sticking with my guess.....

[Tom Myers]

Tom - your input is always great. The software is over my head.
The Buffalo yardage value is a little long. At Raton the distance to the target is 1123 if I am not mistaken. Which is often the case as I slip into senility. So, perhaps something between 149 and 164 less 3.

I'm sticking with my guess.....



When I went back to re enter the target range, I discovered that I had, by mistake, entered the barrel length in place of the sight radius. Sorry 'bout that.
Correcting the two values increased the estimated sight setting for 1123 yards to 173 points.
All of the images now reflect the result of the changes.

It's going to be interesting to learn the results of the actual sight settings at that distance.

[Gunlaker]

Thanks Tom. It looks like you results are quite close to what I get with th JBM software, so I'm sticking with my guess too :-)

It's interesting to see the estimated G1 BC on that bullet. It makes me think that my guess of .490 is pretty close for my slightly heavier bullet. My BC estimate combined with the JBM software gave predictions that were extremely close for my new .45-90 on targets from 500m to 800m. It's always a bit tricky in the real world when you have a little bit of wind and maybe some temperature changes of course.

Chris.

[Chill Wills]

I am probably in over my head on this! :-)

I have not shot the buffalo for 10-15 years. When I am down there ten in days I will have to shoot it after one of the matches just to see what is what. I will be shooting my silhouette rifle. 45-70, 73.5gr FF Swiss and Paul Jones Money Bullet. Should be close to what we are talking about too.
I would also like to try the 40-60 Maynard and see how that compares.

One thing to remember - Bc is not linear through all velocity (muzzle to target) and changes dramatically, low to high as the bullet slows below the speed of sound. With the 45-70 there is not much velocity to sluff off to reach this point. Most of the bullets trip to the buffalo will be subsonic and Bc will be very high, comparatively.

[Don McDowell]

I'm still thinking he's going to be close to 200 points on the staff. I am also wondering if starting below 1200 if that bullet will stay stable enough past 900 to make consistent enough strikes to make corrections off of, especially if there's any crosswinds.
Going to be interesting to see what happens.

[TXGunNut]

.....after a fashion, lol. Got to WC at about 5 local time and headed straight for the range. Lighting was pretty tricky until the sun started to go down a bit; I could see the buff in my spotting scope but the white paint blended into the mountainside. I was finally able to use the boolit impacts on the buff for an aiming point. Wind at the firing line was 10-15mph from L to R but when I held left I hit left. [smilie=b: Vegetation on the mountainside didn't give me anything solid so I went with no windage and just let the wind catch one now and then.
No spotters available, closest guy was clueless and too busy fighting with his wife to be much help. I figured I had about three seconds to get on the scope after the shot and it actually worked quite well.
Actually hit the buff inside of my first six rounds, boolit dropped between his feet and I heard the gong but didn't realize what I'd heard. Adjusted up & shot over him next shot. Next hit several shots later I didn't see the boolit hit but heard the gong. Still clueless, lol. Ran out of Money boolits but had 20 457125's loaded up over a load I haven't taken to the range yet but it's a slight tweak of a load this rifle seemed to like. It was hitting about 10 ft low so walking it in was pretty simple, hit it again after about 8 shots and this time the wheels started turning. I saw the boolit drop between his feet, then heard the gong about three seconds later. [smilie=w:
While I was letting that soak in I fired a few more shots until I hit it again just to confirm.
I'll try to post a pic of my rear sight but left my dial calipers at home so won't be able to give you a precise measurement. Pic isn't very good but I'm enjoying a sip of whiskey so a better pic will have to wait.

[TXGunNut]

Phone and laptop are fighting, best guess I had about a third of the upright left. I didn't run out of windage after all. I'd SWAG it at about 2" above my 100yd setting.

[TXGunNut]

I'm still thinking he's going to be close to 200 points on the staff. I am also wondering if starting below 1200 if that bullet will stay stable enough past 900 to make consistent enough strikes to make corrections off of, especially if there's any crosswinds.
Going to be interesting to see what happens.

You were correct, Don. The 457125's were probably closer to 1300fps and the crosswinds seemed to toy more with the Money boolit than the Lyman. I saw indications of L-R and R-L winds so if a boolit went flying off to the side now and then I just wrote it off. Some went 10 ft to the right, some 20, some flew true.

[TXGunNut]

You should have piles of elevation to reach that buffalo then I would think. Even if my guess was right then you'd need 173 minutes. I just dug my deluxe Shaver LR sight out of the parts box and the staff goes up to 3.25". I think someone mentioned that you are shooting a 34" barreled Sharps? That would put your sight radius at around 38", so one minute of angle is not much more than 0.01" on the sight. My guestimate would put you around 1.73x38/36=1.83 on your sight staff. Sometimes its easier to spot misses that are short, depending on the backstop so you might want to start 10 points lower.Chris.

You were right about the elevation available and your calculations were very, very close. Possibly within .1". I'll know when I get my rifle a bit closer to my dial calipers.
Good job, thank you!

[TXGunNut]

Hope this is of some help. -Tom Myers

I think I actually have that software, mainly been using the firearms log for now. I can now see how useful it can be. Hopefully I'll be able to figure out how to use it. ;-)

[Don McDowell]

What is the 0 mark on the slide lined up with on the staff. How many hash marks above or below the #2 stamped on the sight?

[Tom Myers]

You were right about the elevation available and your calculations were very, very close. Possibly within .1". I'll know when I get my rifle a bit closer to my dial calipers.
Good job, thank you!

Without using calipers, you can actually read the vernier scale on the sight and be accurate to within 1/100" when determining, sight adjustment values.

A link on my website should give a fairly good explanation of how to read, record and adjust a vernier sight.

Click on the vernier slider image or here > How to Read a Vernier Sight (http://www.tmtpages.com/vernier.htm) to open the webpage

http://www.tmtpages.com/vernierimg/Vernier1.gif (http://www.tmtpages.com/vernier.htm)

It may take some time to become familiar with a vernier sight, but once the skill has been acquired, very precise, accurate sight adjustments can be made.

I recall that, when I first started in the BPCR game, I was consistently and totally confused when making sight adjustments but, after I finally decided to really try to understand the vernier measuring method, The light bulb turned on and I was amazed at the simplicity and accuracy of the process.


With a 30 inch barrel, the sight radius is usually right at 34". A 34 inch sight radius means that the sight adjustment points translate quite closely into Minute of Angle adjustments.

A sight radius of 32.9 inches will translate point adjustments directly into M.O.A. adjustments.

With a 32 inch barrel, the sight radius is usually right at 36". A 36 inch sight radius means that the sight adjustment points translate directly into inches of impact adjustment at 100 yards.

When you are on the shooting line and your spotter calls for an elevation adjustment of 3 M.O.A., you don't need to worry about how many revolutions of the adjustment screw are required. Simply re-aligning the next third sight staff mark above or below will adjust the sight 0.03" or 3 points which, with a sight radius between 33" and 36", will be quite close or dead on for bullet impact displacements of ~ 3 M.O.A. ~ 3" @ 100 yd ~ 6" @ 200 yd ~ 30" @ 1,000 yd ~ etc.


When using the Precision Ballistics Software (http://www.tmtpages.com/basbal/bal.htm) you can observe that the sight adjustment chart is marked off in inches, M.O.A., points, and Staff/Slider alignment values. These comparisons may be used to ease the process when learning to make the transition from adjustment measurements to adjustment points.

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/BufArmsBulletTraj/MoneyBulletSightSettingst.png

[TXGunNut]

What is the 0 mark on the slide lined up with on the staff. How many hash marks above or below the #2 stamped on the sight?

0 is one mark below the "2", 100 yd zero was 3.5 marks above the bottom of the scale.

[TXGunNut]

Thanks, Tom. Excellent link and explanation. At one time a few decades ago I actually learned how to read a Vernier caliper, must admit I didn't recognize the markings.

[Don McDowell]

0 is one mark below the "2", 100 yd zero was 3.5 marks above the bottom of the scale.
That would be called 195.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

[BrentD]

TXGunNut,
When you started this thread, i just assumed you were getting ready to go to the BPCR Nationals since it is only a little more than a week away. Is there any chance you will still be there, or will come back for the matches?

I am working on getting things ready, cleaning out boxes, reorganizing, making piles of things that have to go. I leave on Friday and will shoot the Lever Gun nationals starting on Monday and staying through and entire 2 weeks. If you weren't planning on it there is still time to change your mind, but you need to load fast!

[TXGunNut]

TXGunNut,
When you started this thread, i just assumed you were getting ready to go to the BPCR Nationals since it is only a little more than a week away. Is there any chance you will still be there, or will come back for the matches?

I am working on getting things ready, cleaning out boxes, reorganizing, making piles of things that have to go. I leave on Friday and will shoot the Lever Gun nationals starting on Monday and staying through and entire 2 weeks. If you weren't planning on it there is still time to change your mind, but you need to load fast!


I may stop in Tuesday on the way home. In Cody now for the WACA show and a bit of gawking at the Cody Museum. Sharps Collectors will be here as well. I retired from the shooting comp game over 15 yrs ago; too much travelling and expense. Must admit I'm toying with playing the BPCR game but if I do it will be on a very limited basis. Casting and loading and load testing for that Sharps is a lot of work, I have a whole new respect for you guys that do this on a regular basis.

[BrentD]

Let's see, Tuesday of this coming week, we will be down on the pistol silhouette range, one range to the East of the High Power Silhouette range and down the hill. We will be shooting the second day of lever gun rifles.

I'll be shooting a Marlin 93 with black powder. I will probably be the ONLY one shooting black, so look for smoke, or look for a new, white F150 with Iowa plates.

[TXGunNut]

That would be called 195.



Thanks, Don. Haven't had time to sit down and figure it out, that's helpful. It's all beginning to make sense now.
And thanks again to all who helped me pull this off. Couldn't have done it without you.

[TXGunNut]

Let's see, Tuesday of this coming week, we will be down on the pistol silhouette range, one range to the East of the High Power Silhouette range and down the hill. We will be shooting the second day of lever gun rifles.

I'll be shooting a Marlin 93 with black powder. I will probably be the ONLY one shooting black, so look for smoke, or look for a new, white F150 with Iowa plates.

Sounds like fun, looking forward to watching a bit before I head home. I'm the old guy with a beard driving a new red F150 with TX Horned Toad (conservation) plates.

[BrentD]

Old guy with beard... :) might be one or two of those around...:). Will look for ya.

[TXGunNut]

LOL. Long day, just having a bit of fun. Shoot straight, I'll find you.

[TXGunNut]

I hope I can make this work. My pics are poor quality and IT skills are even poorer.

[TXGunNut]

One more, this one shows the extreme angle of the rifle to reach the buffalo.

[TXGunNut]

The bare spot in the draw above the sillywet range is where the buff is. Last row of targets is 500 meters.
171880

[Tom Myers]

That sure is a beautiful rifle.

It appears, from your image, that your 1123 yard sight setting for the Raton altitude and ambient conditions was 196 points.
If you remember the temperature at the range, that would also be good. Also wind velocity and direction. And ever better, would be if you also knew the barometric pressure at the range.
When you have a chance, adjust your sight to your 100 yard zero and send us a picture.

With the additional knowledge of your chronograph velocity, we can determine the muzzle velocity and the exact ballistic coefficient of the money bullet.

Then, before your next trip to a shoot, you can use your Precision Ballistics Software (http://www.tmtpages.com/Ballistics_Ver-4_Help/hlp_topic_26.htm) to enter those values and print out charts that will display sight settings, side-wind and head/tailwind adjustments at any range and ambient conditions that will always be within one or two point of dead on for your rifle.

It is hard to describe the feeling of elation that one feels when arriving at a shooting match with a new bullet and load, sitting down at the 800 yard line, glancing at your notes, adjusting the sights, placing the rifle on the sticks, taking careful aim, breaking the shot and then hearing your spotter exclaim, "8 ring - 3:00 O'clock - give me 2 minutes left windage".

Oh, and by the way, the angle of inclination for your rifle barrel to launch the bullet out to the 1123 yard mark (depending on the determination of your 100 yard zero) should be 184.74 minutes of angle (184.74 M.O.A. / 60 = 3.079 degrees) and the angle of impact should be 3.838 degrees X 60 = 230.28 M.O.A.

The angle of inclination of that particular target above the firing position would certainly increase the inclination of the rifle but, at that range, would be a negligible factor in the sight adjustment.

[TXGunNut]

Incredible wealth of information, Tom. Thanks. The sight setting shown is for the 457125, IIRC it's two marks higher than the Money boolit setting but I can't say for sure. I think the Money boolit was a bit unstable at that distance and velocity. I have not chrono'd the 452125 load I fired Tuesday, it's a variation of a load I measured @ 1322 IIRC. I'm sorry, not much useful info there.

[Chill Wills]

I am probably in over my head on this! :-)

I have not shot the buffalo for 10-15 years. When I am down there ten in days I will have to shoot it after one of the matches just to see what is what. I will be shooting my silhouette rifle. 45-70, 73.5gr FF Swiss and Paul Jones Money Bullet. Should be close to what we are talking about too.
I would also like to try the 40-60 Maynard and see how that compares.
.

I was wondering about the "come-up's" discussed in this thread. Yesterday, sight in day before the scope match today, I shot my 40-60 Maynard at the 1123 yard Buffalo to see how my estimate would stack up against real life. The only difference is I shot the much smaller 40-60 Maynard instead of the 45-70 I use. It worked well! I may try the 45-70 later this week when I know how much extra 45-70 silhouette ammo I have.

Moot really.

I would guess it would be close to the same.

40-60 Maynard come-ups:
200-yard sight setting - 52
*300y-63
*500y-91
*600y-105
1123 -yard -188
====================
200 to 1123 137

The question was how much to come up from 100y to the buffalo.
In my case, 137 minutes from 200y to 1123y

I would estimate 10 minutes from 100y to 200y

100 to 1123y 147

That would make 147minutes up from 100ys to the buffalo - this, from the 40cal. Good eh?
Here is a picture of the 40 made from a blown out cut down 30-40 Krag case. Maybe the smartest BPCR cartridge going.

Well - I can't make the 40-60 cartridge picture stick.

[Chill Wills]

172725The only picture I could attach of the 40-60 Maynard ( right ) was included with a comparison with the 38-50 Remington-Hepburn on the left.

Interestingly enough, this 40 cal is fully the equal of the 45-70 shooting as flat or flatter to the buffalo. It also placed well in the NRA National Silhouette championship match this week.

[TXGunNut]

Sounds like it's a fair bit flatter than the 45-70 or 45-90. Congrats on a good showing in Raton! Looks to me like the .40 is the hot caliber for this game. I know it would be more comfortable to shoot and easier on the lead and powder supply.

[Chill Wills]

TXGunNut,
I think you worked out what the number of Minutes you needed to come up from your 100Y setting to the 1123y Buffalo. If so, I missed it - which is often the case.
Can you report that number again? I think you used the two different bullets too.

[Gunlaker]

That's pretty good for a .40. I've never tried my .40-65 past 600, but the come-ups are nearly identical. Actually mine has been shooting a little flatter this year than last, I think because I have better fouling management. I'm guessing you are shooting a 400gr-ish money bullet at around 1300 fps?

My .40-65 shoots flatter than my .45-70 to 600, even though the .45 bullet has a better BC, but I think it's just because the .40 shoots them 150 fps faster. I'm pretty sure my .45-90 shoots flatter than the .40, but it's shooting a little slipperier bullet at a higher velocity of course.

Chris.

[TXGunNut]

TXGunNut,
I think you worked out what the number of Minutes you needed to come up from your 100Y setting to the 1123y Buffalo. If so, I missed it - which is often the case.
Can you report that number again? I think you used the two different bullets too.

Best guess is 190 minutes for the Lyman and a bit less for the Money. I didn't chrono my second load and I put a very slight crimp on the first load so that data is questionable as well. Second load likely started out at least 100fps faster than the first but BC and mass were significantly different. Considering I changed horses midstream and SWAG'd a bit here and there I didn't really gather much useful data. I'm sorry, as I mentioned before I simply ran out of time on this project and had to do it quick and dirty. Still haven't sat down with the sight and taken a refresher on Vernier principles.
I may be able to figure it out If I can recreate the first and take the remnants of the second load to the range with my LabRadar.

[Chill Wills]

Best guess is 190 minutes for the Lyman and a bit less for the Money. Still haven't sat down with the sight and taken a refresher on Vernier principles.
I may be able to figure it out If I can recreate the first and take the remnants of the second load to the range with my LabRadar.

OK. Thanks! If that Lyman bullet is the Gov. Round nose - 457 125 I would guess that sounds about right. It is a good bullet for some things and everyone should have one. When I did two chronograph Bc testing at Raton one year that was one of the bullets tested. From the top of my head that bullet when fired at about 1175 fps muzzle velocity gave a Bc of just under 0.4 - really something in the 0.39? Bc range.

[Chill Wills]

That's pretty good for a .40. I've never tried my .40-65 past 600, but the come-ups are nearly identical. Actually mine has been shooting a little flatter this year than last, I think because I have better fouling management. I'm guessing you are shooting a 400gr-ish money bullet at around 1300 fps? -Chris.

Chris - I am sorry but for some reason I just now see your post so had not replied to your question.

That 40 can shoot as flat as anything in its velocity class (maybe close anyway - we get liberal with superlatives) and I launched those mini-groove bullets as it was called back then, at 1265fps average velocity. I have never shot the 40-60Maynard in a long-range match but our friend DanT used to try to get me to do it. Although, he thought the results should be better for 1000ys by boosting velocity closer to 1300fps by using a load of Swiss 3F powder. It was his belief that no one would ever know what I was shooting, in other words, not shooting a 45-90 and the little round would be very competitive due mainly to the bullet. At present I shoot this as my Mid-range and Silhouette load.

If I had a brain in my head, I would sell all my other rifles and just stick with rifles chambered for the little 40.
But - unlike marriage - I like some variety in rifles and cartridges to keep the world interesting.
:razz:

[Lead pot]

Beware of the man with just one rifle :)

[Gunlaker]

I know what you mean about keeping it interesting with cartridge and rifle variety. I'm pretty guilty of that. At our local gong shoot, a number of shooters have had better success than I'd have thought at 880 yards using 1:14 or 1:16 twist .40's. On a calm day, a friend managed several consecutive hits on a tiny 2 MOA sized gong at 1000 using a standard Shiloh shooting the Snover bullet. I haven't been brave enough to try :-).

I might try that sort of thing one day, but first I have to really get comfortable with Creedmoor shooting using a vanilla .45-90. I have quite a ways to go yet.

BTW, my .40-65 shoots the Kidwell 400gr Money bullet at 1300 fps. This is with 60.6gr of OE 1.5 which seems to have decent SD's.

See you in Byers.

Chris.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

you guys reflect my own experience.
having a 45/2.4 and a 40/72, I find myself reaching for the 40 more and more.
it is just easier to shoot, and uses less powder and lead.
with its 13 twist it can shoot bullets as long as 1.55" which are capable at long range.
if these bullets are patched to bore the case will hold 84 gns of swiss 1.0 or 1.5, delivering bullets at over 1300 fps which have a b.c. over 0.5 calculated from trajectories.
you can also seat greasers deep enough in the case to use 65 gns of powder for mid range and sil.
a wonderful compromise.
I have wondered about necking up 9.3x74 brass to make 40/85 ballard cases which might be about 2.9" long as opposed to just under 2.6" for the 40/72.
this would trade off a bit of mid range for a bit more long range.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Gunlaker]

Bruce I wonder how many have taken a run at long range with .40's or less? Obviously Dan did, and I know that Steve Rhoades shoots a .40-82, but they still seem pretty uncommon so far. I'm sure that at least some of that is because many shooters try to emulate the shooters at the top of the game rather than take risks and try to innovate.

I know that on paper, rounds like Dan's fast twist .38's should do very well, but then I think of what I hear of fast twist .223's in the FT/R game vs. the standard heavy .308's.

Chris.

[BrentD]

Although I'm building a 40, many .40 shooters and spotters will tell you the calling wind, take your .45 cal estimate and double it.

Last year, I spotted for an Aussie with his .40 and it (the expression) made a believer out of me. I would never take a .40 to a long-range match, and probably not even to a windy silhouette match.

There is only one reason why a.40 might be preferred over a .45 and that is not relevant to LR shooting.

[Chill Wills]

I do not have any experience with a 40 past 600y

[Chill Wills]

It would take a non-match day, pair firing with two shooters to get a true impression - 40 v 45 at LR.

I believe Bc should tell the whole story. Two 0.500 Bc bullets, one 40 Cal and the other 45 Cal should perform the same - should it not?

I am open to logic. Maybe I can pair fire with Jack Odor at the Oct. Byers match and test this out.

To do it you only need have your rifles front sights in agreement. I did this in 2004 with Dave Gullo at the World Creedmoor Championships in the team shooting match.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

any bullets with the same b.c. at the same velocity will have the same wind deflection.
the trick with a 40 is to get the same b.c. as with a 45.
this will require a faster twist than most 40s have, particularly ones from the day.
I have a 40/72 and a 45/2.4", and deflection is so similar that I use the same wind chart.
if the 40 has one disadvantage over the 45, is that 12' and 13' twists required impart 1 moa more spindrift at 1000 yards, 3 moa as opposed to 2 moa.
if your deadwind zero is set for 1000 yds, this makes no difference, but this is hard to do reliably, so it is better to set it for 100, or at 100 zeroed a bit to the left.
in the old days they used a windage foresight, and set it 2 points left for long range.
while a 38 would be even easier to shoot than a 40, the 40 is a compromise between a 45 and a 38..
there are now more people picking up the 40 cal for long range shooting, so it will be interesting to have this discussion in another 10 years.
keep safe,
bruce.

[BrentD]

Bruce, I'm not at all sure I agree with you about wind drift being equal for all bullets with the same BC. Certainly, it is a part of that, but so is simple inertia, and the .45s have a lot more of it.

I don't really see any upside to shooting a .40 at long range. I don't know why anyone would want to do it, other that was the only rifle available. I do see an upside to the .40s with silhouette.

Various people have campaigned .40s for long range and none have done consistently well with it. Some of those shooters were well established shooters also.

FWIW, the King of the .38s is unarguably Rick Moritz. Rick does not use a .38 for midrange, nor does he use a .40 for long range. There is a reason for that.