Colt Arms 1862 pocket police repro, POI issues

[DrDucati]

Having a lot of difficulty sighting this in. My research yielded some interesting commentary.

From sixguns dot com:
The ideal situation is a sixgun that shoots low with a front sight that can be filed to the proper height. Unfortunately the ideal rarely exists in the real world. Both 1860 sixguns shot high with the EMF Hartford Model printing groups two to three inches high and the Navy Arms .44 going six to eight inches high. Both have blade front sights that can be replaced. Some gain can be made by filing down the rear sight, which on all Colt replicas is found as a notch on the hammer.

and: (wysiwyg editor-forced bold for some reason)


All is not perfect however as this sixgun shot five to eight inches high at fifty feet. Its inherent accuracy makes it worth adjusting the sights to hit dead on. The rear sight will be corrected first by filing and deepening the notch in the hammer face that serves as a rear sight. If this does not result in a suitable lowering of the point of aim, the front sight will be replaced by a higher blade that can be filed down to point of aim

and:



During the period from 1848 to 1862, Colt developed several five- shot pocket pistols. The best of these, at least to my way of thinking, is the last cap-n-ball from the Colt factory, the 1862 .36 caliber New Model Police, the Colt Cobra of the nineteenth century.
This trim little five-shooter was very popular as a concealment handgun. Grips are one piece walnut, the frame, hammer, and loading lever are all case colored, and the action is tight with a somewhat heavy mainspring. The front sight is a very tiny shotgun style gold bead that allows this little gun to shoot eighteen inches high at fifty feet! Since this is a belly gun designed for across card table distances, I do believe I will leave it alone and use it for point shooting black powder style.





The last bit is pretty much my exact situation, only I would really like to remedy this (I don't play cards).

from gunsoftheoldwest dot com:

As it was on the originals, the sights on the Uberti 1862 Police revolver are crude, but effective. The front sight is a low brass cone, and the rear sight is simply a notch cut into the hammer nose. As was the case with the original 1862 revolvers, the Uberti’s front sight is much too low for the up close and personal sort of shooting this gun was designed for. In my tests the gun shot over eight inches high at 15 yards, and 10 inches high at 25 yards.

So, after deepening the rear sight notch, it seems I need to replace the front sight. Not sure how feasible this really is. The other question is: the muzzle seems mildly out of square in the vertical plane, like " \ " when viewed <o) ---> as shooter. Anyone know if a couple degrees of error in the muzzle would cause it to shoot high? Wondering about whether I should file it down.

[bubba.50]

most common remedy is to put a dovetail in the barrel & install a tall, thin blade sight that you can file down to point-of-impact.

[Mr Peabody]

I just aim low.;)

[Earlwb]

Hmmm. If you shoot Center of Mass on a silhouette target, you are probably right in the ball park then.
Now then, if you use a circular target, then aim at the 6 o'clock bottom point on the target. Using iron sights on a rifle, that is what they do with round targets too. That should have you setup for a good aim point then. Also these pistols tended to be used at very close range, point blank likely, so aiming probably wasn't on the user's mind much. The sights wind up being next to useless then.

[Nobade]

I just pulled the sight out of mine and replaced it with a piece of brass wire the right size. I think it was a brazing rod. Then filed it until the revolver hit where I wanted it to. As for the crown, that's what gunsmiths are for.

-Nobade

[DrDucati]

Difficulty finding a good gunsmith in these parts--well, good and trustworthy.

[John Taylor]

One of the things that can be done on Colts if they are shooting high is to install a longer trigger. This holds the hammer back a bit more so the rear sight is lower. Finding a longer trigger may be a little difficult. I have had many Colts come in with broken triggers and end up building them up with weld. Trouble is I don't know how the gun shot before and I usually don't get a chance to see if it will group on the target on target after.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Wouldn't that require shortening the hand as well? An alternative I have used on other firearms when a hammer notch was in bad condition, was to silver solder a tiny piece of high speed steel toolbit into the hammer. A replacement front sight is probably the best solution for eight inches at 15 yards, but for eighteen inches at 50 feet, probably not.

My only cap and ball Colt now doesn't use cap and ball, as it is a factory rimfire conversion of the Pocket Police. I've never fired it, but the backstrap should permit eight inches' worth of raising to the hammer, but not eighteen. I think a spare cylinder would have been quite important to have, as the metal over the rear of the chambers is frighteningly thin. Well not frightening exactly, as with the open top a blowout would probably have been harmless, and most likely allowed you to go on shooting. For that conversion I would much have preferred the 1849 model.

It points beautifully, and must have been just concealable as many fat little derringers. It is a shame to see obstacles in the way of the accuracy a good one could surely have provided. But it is on the .41 derringer end of the market that it would surely have competed, and I think the man with one would have been much better armed.

[bedbugbilly]

I don't think I've had a C & B revolver in the last 50 + years that didn't shoot high (mostly 1851 Navies but a couple of 1860 Army, '61 Navy, Remingtons and yes, one '62 pocket police). Several good suggestions have been made. You will find may originals which have had front dovetailed sights installed so that is one option - if you can find someone who knows hoe to cut dovetails. The second option is to pull the pin sight and just replace it with a piece of brass brazing rod of the right diameter and then file down to what's needed. The third? Mr Peabody (Bert) hits it on the head - change your POA. That is all part of learning to shoot a SA without adjustable sights whether it be a C & B or a SAA. Establish the load you are going to use - be consistent with the load and learn where your particular pistol shoots - and at what distance.

If you are always shooting at the exact same distance then you'll learn where the POA should be in regards to POI. However, if you are carrying it for plinking in the woods or just plain plinking on the range - you will always be shooting at different distances. Learn to judge those distances and where to aim for those distances. This not only includes elevation, but windage as well - especially if you have a cross wind.

Shooting these BP pistols is no different than shooting a round ball rifle. Too many people practice at 25, 50, 100 yards, etc. and then when they hunt, they have never practiced estimating distances and shooting at odd distances such as 40, 60, 90 yards etc. and then they wonder why their POI is "off".

One match that will really impress this on a person is the gunmaker's match at Friendship. You get one shot at an unknown distance and often with a cross wind unless it is a dead still day. It's a fun match. The first time I shot it with a newly built Virginia rifle in .36 caliber that I had built from scratch many years ago, I learned very quickly that I needed to practice at different and odd distances under various weather conditions and learn to "adapt" my elevation and windage.

I'm not being critical at all so please don't take it that way. If your pocket needs to have a new sight put on that is taller - and that is not uncommon at all - get it replaced and then determine a good consistent load and adjust the sight height for the distance you will be shooting most. Then . . . practice, practice, practice at the distance you will shoot most. After you have it sighed in - then start playing with it at different distances and learn how to adjust your sight picture in terms of POA - you'll soon learn your POI and can adjust your POA to match. That's part of the fun of shooting these revolvers. And do't think for a minute that our ancestors didn't have the same issues with the originals - they did.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Didn't Wild Bill say you should always aim for the middle, as you can afford to go a little bit wrong?

I wish I could remember who I read about getting surprisingly good results with a Navy Colt at very long ranges. It might even have been Elmer Keith. But almost no revolver shooting was done at ranges where the trajectory much mattered. A low point of aim, low by the same amount if you measure it in terms of the width of the hammer nose, would seldom lead anyone wrong.

[pietro]

.


Keep in mind that, sometimes, the POI can be moved via adjusting the loading charge, wads/no-wads, and/or powder granulation.

For instance, although YMMV, I use only Holy Black instead of a BP substitute.


.

[John Taylor]

Wouldn't that require shortening the hand as well? .

Ideally the bolt should drop into the cylinder notch at the same time as the trigger engages the full cock position. I have seen many come in that the trigger drops in first and some so bad that the cylinder is not lined up with the bore. This is not the same as the bolt release from the hammer which should happen just before the cylinder is lined up, ( to early and you end up with an unsightly ring around the cylinder). It's always fun when I get one in that someone tried to do their own timing.

[DrDucati]

A good many great points made and ideas there, from all of you. It is really appreciated.

[Omnivore]

Here's my solution in the form of a picture tutorial;
http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php?topic=10160.0 (http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php?topic=10160.0)

Only a few, basic tools required.

You want to make sure the barrel-to-frame fit is all proper and solid though, before you attempt to regulate your sights. That's a whole other tutorial though. In short, the arbor should bottom out against the bottom of the arbor in the barrel, leaving the cylinder gap right where you want it. That way you have a consistent REPEATABLE cylinder gap, but just as importantly you have a repeatable Point Of Impact relative to Point Of Aim. In my case it required a new barrel wedge, and shimming the arbor (All my Ubertis have required shimming the arbor to make it effectively longer - if pushing the wedge in tight locks up the cylinder, you need to shim the arbor). Also make sure your barrel fits square and even against the bottom of the frame, with good pressure and full contact surface. If any of this stuff is not right, your accuracy will suffer as your POI will wander.

My standard for the little "pocket" models (including the Police) is golf balls at ten yards. I don't want to have to hold off to hit a target of that size. If it can't do that, it's just not near as much fun. I don't get any enjoyment out of aiming at the belt-line on a silhouette to hit "somewhere in the torso" at ten yards. No thanks, and anyway there's no reason you can't have a Police model that shoots to POA. Soup cans at 25 yards, aiming dead on using your prefered sight picture, should be no problem.

I opened up the rear notch in the hammer too, and flattened it on top, so I now get a modern open sight picture. That's optional.

If you don't feel like doing the work yourself, Goons Gun Works can help.

An aftermarket, dovetailed front sight on an open top Colt was not an altogether uncommon thing during the 1860s & '70s either (we see surviving examples), so clearly some people back then also wanted a gun that shoots properly, as opposed to the factory setup.

[45 Dragoon]

Thanks Omnivore! You splain it good!! Good job on the dove tailing tutorial also!!!


Mike

[Ragnarok]

I own a Pietta Navy .36 that you couldn't even see the front sight bead with the hammer cocked when it was brand-new! It had some functional issues when new too. Anyhow..I had to fit it with a new taller front bead to get it shooting(plus work over the timing). I had needed to fit a new front bead to an old FIE Navy .36 I owned as a kid too...plus file the hammer notch off-center to get it regulated.

The Uberti third model Dragoon I bought a few years ago does shoot rather high. It's about perfect for 75/80 yard shooting but you have to hold rather low for close range plinking. However I don't think the old Colts or the newer repro Dragoons were really designed as close range handguns but rather as carbine substitutes.

The Cimarron(Uberti) Navy I bought a year or so back is about as close to perfect as any 'Colt' style percussion revolver I've owned. The front brass bead is a bit big for the width of the hammer-notch...but the regulation is perfect.

[Omnivore]

Ragnarok; you got lucky then. I have two Cimarron Uberti Colts ('61 Navy and '62 Police - both purchased new within the last two years) and both needed what would be considered gunsmithing to correct multiple issues. Both needed the cylinder arbor shimmed, one needed the hammer cam drilled out and replaced, and they'll both eventually have new front sights. Lots of other little issues besides. The Police model needed a ton of work, and is still in progress - it's grip was fit so poorly it hurt to fire it, and it shot feet high at ten yards.

At around three hundred dollars, these are SUPER cheap guns, and to expect them to be ready go in all respects, with good fit and finish, is just unrealistic. You may get lucky, but chances are you won't.

[KCSO]

I have two fixes fro the poa problem in the cap and ball revolvers. My favourite is a shallow dovetail with a Marbles bead front sight installed. This gives you windage and by substitution you can set the elevation to dead on at your desired range. The number 2 for very thin barrels is a machined brass blade with a heart shaped base contoured to the barrel and soldered on with Brownell's Hi Force solder. This needs to be done with the owner shooting as you need to solder the sight on so the windage is right. You then file the blade down to suit. I also open up the rear hammer notch to a square sided notch. This setup on my 36 shorty was a prize winner in our summer shoot and will group 5 shots into 2" at 25 yards with full loads. I have done a couple of these for members here but I don't have any pictures handy just now.

[koger]

similar to what KCSO said, I have taken old, tiny front sights that dovetail in the base on the front of Mauser rifle barrels, I had kept them from gunsmith sporter jobs and off old scrap barrels,and did some fine file work, dovetailed them into the front of the barrel. I either made a rear blade, L shapred that I silver soldered onto the rear of the barrel. These were octagonal Navy models. With about 2-3 cylinders, and filing, sights were set, and the revolvers shot better than ever. These were used in competition in local and state matches here in KY.

[DrDucati]

my gunsmith is going to crown the muzzle, and add a larger front bead site. He does not believe there is sufficient depth to dovetail a front site onto the pocket police.

[Omnivore]

There is more than ample depth. Just ask those of us who've already done it. Maybe you need another "gunsmith". For example; the dovetail I cut in my Police model is less deep than the factory front sight (which you can see in the photos I posted). I bet your "gunsmith" doesn't know that, but you'd know it if you'd followed and read the links I provided you.

For another example; how do you think the loading lever latch is attached to the barrel? It's dovetailed in, that's how, right below the front sight. Apparently your "gunsmith" didn't notice that.

Having been in the business for some 18 years, some of the silliest things I've heard have immediately followed the words "my gunsmith". Sorry, and I wish it were not so, but it's a fact.

You can dovetail in a front sight, same as the factory dovetailed in the lever latch, or better. If your "gunsmith" balks at the prospect in any way whatsoever, you need a to find a real gunsmith*, or, as is detailed in the links I provided, you can do it yourself.

*A gunsmith is someone who can take a random lump of steel, and a slab of wood, and turn them into a fine firearm. Someone who is scared of cutting a little old dovetail is certainly not a gunsmith, by any stretch. Someone who might be able to assemble an AR-15 or a Colt Peacemaker from parts, or mount a scope to your bolt action rifle, and get it right, and know that it's right, the first time, would be known as an armorer, which is a far cry from being a gunsmith.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

There is more than ample depth. Just ask those of us who've already done it. Maybe you need another "gunsmith". For example; the dovetail I cut in my Police model is less deep than the factory front sight (which you can see in the photos I posted). I bet your "gunsmith" doesn't know that, but you'd know it if you'd followed and read the links I provided you.

For another example; how do you think the loading lever latch is attached to the barrel? It's dovetailed in, that's how, right below the front sight. Apparently your "gunsmith" didn't notice that.

Having been in the business for some 18 years, some of the silliest things I've heard have immediately followed the words "my gunsmith". Sorry, and I wish it were not so, but it's a fact.

You can dovetail in a front sight, same as the factory dovetailed in the lever latch, or better. If your "gunsmith" balks at the prospect in any way whatsoever, you need a to find a real gunsmith*, or, as is detailed in the links I provided, you can do it yourself.

*A gunsmith is someone who can take a random lump of steel, and a slab of wood, and turn them into a fine firearm. Someone who is scared of cutting a little old dovetail is certainly not a gunsmith, by any stretch. Someone who might be able to assemble an AR-15 or a Colt Peacemaker from parts, or mount a scope to your bolt action rifle, and get it right, and know that it's right, the first time, would be known as an armorer, which is a far cry from being a gunsmith.

There is much in what you say, but you make it sound as if there are no gunsmiths in the world. Even the old frontier muzzle-loader builders, whose work with primitive facilities verges on the miraculous, frequently bought in the locks, and it has always been virtually unknown for any one person to make all of a breech-loading firearm. Even the best British double shotguns were virtually always a compilation of the work of specialists within the firm, outworkers, subcontractors and bought-in parts.

Plenty of gunsmiths could make a firearm from raw materials, by an expenditure of time and effort which would be impossibly uneconomical to make a living by. But actually doing so would be a point-scoring exercise akin to building a model Empire State Building out of matchsticks. Nobody actually does it.

[Omnivore]

Nobody actually does it.

Not that someone would have to, but a gunsmith would be able to perform any required service, which means having the ABILITY to build a gun from scratch.

Anyway, here's a young lady who did it, including making her own screws and springs, and rifling her own barrel, all with more or less "basic" machine tools (not CNC). Contrary to the text in the OP, she also made her own grips;
http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php?topic=9958.0 (http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php?topic=9958.0)

There are those now building 18th Century-style flintlock rifles from scratch also, including their own hammer-welded, wrought iron barrels. They start at over ten thousand dollars, and people buy them.

The old builders did indeed often buy locks and other parts rather than build them themselves, but more for economics reasons rather than being unable to make them. If you needed a new part made for a lock, there were those builders who could fabricate it when necessary, and thus they were gunsmiths in every sense of the word.

Anyway; my point holds, that someone who balks at dovetailing in a new front sight is no gunsmith. I'm no gunsmith, but I found it fairly easy to do, and so can you.

[DrDucati]

yes, I've not been thrilled with this guy's service, but as I suggested above, some challenge finding a good gun guy around here. Not to say there isn't one; he's just hiding somewhere.

[DrDucati]

Update: I had gunsmith crown the muzzle and the gun shoots dead-on now.