jacketed bullet data for cast bullets

[charliek]

Can I use the loading data for jacketed bullets with cast bullets of the same weight?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

That's one of those "maybe yes, maybe no" questions. Sometimes they interchange, but in general they don't. Many jacketed bullet loads for rifles are of too high a velocity for cast bullets. This is gotten around to some extent by using gas checks which lets you drive them at higher than just cast alone without them, but there is still a practical limit beyond which jacketed bullets can be driven and cast can not. If your question pertains to handgun bullets the crossover rate is much better, but there is usually a point where bore leading becomes a problem, and the top end loads are better off reserved for jacketed bullets. You will be best served by using only loads published in the many reloading manuals that are available.

[claude]

I have, and I have found the velocities to be higher and the tendency to lead the barrel somewhat greater, but to no great extent.
As an example30-30 data in the Lyman 48th lists two 170gr bullets, jacketed and cast gc;

jacketed 3031 start 25.0gr max 28.5gr

Lead 3031 start 22.5gr max 28.5gr

In pistol cartridges the overlap is even greater, proceed with common sense and enjoy.


FWIW this reply was being composed before the above post, which I agree with was on screen.

[JSnover]

Can I use the loading data for jacketed bullets with cast bullets of the same weight?
It is safe, if that's what you're asking.
As per usual don't start with max loads. Keep an eye out for leading or groups that go from good to terrible.

[Hick]

I interchange the loads frequently-- but ALWAYS start at minimum load until I know for sure that it is working OK

[GhostHawk]

I have done it but the rule is start small, work up and watch for pressure signs or problems.

Better in the long run to get something like the Lyman cast bullet manual, I have had #4 for almost 2 years and recently scored a #3 which has loads of loads for Red Dot and similar powders.

I think there is still lots of room for improvement with better mold coverage. And perhaps a wider range of "safe" loads. Not everyone chases speed.

[robg]

Depends how fast your pushing them ,lead slips down the bore easier so speeds can be a fair bit higher ,your safe all things being equal but accuracy won't happen if lead is pushed too fast.

[Don Fischer]

Get a cast bullet reloading manual!

[Wayne Smith]

Can I use the loading data for jacketed bullets with cast bullets of the same weight?

In all honesty it totally depends on cartridge. 30-30 probably yes across the board, my 32-20 probably yes across the board, .308 or 30-06 no way. Pistols probably yes, but some of the extreme ones perhaps not. I'm thinking the Tokarav cartridge, some of the hotter 9mm's and the like as 'extreme'.

[warf73]

I have used jacketed load data for cast pistol boolits where I was using a new powder that isn't listed in my cast reloading manual. Or a boolit weight that isn't listed but IS listed using a jacketed bullit. As always I started with the min load and worked up till I found accuracy. In about 98% of my reloading cast boolits over the years I reach accuracy or the accuracy I want below max. I ran into a situation where max for a jacketed bullet just started getting accurate with a cast boolit (480 Ruger).

Common since does play a roll in reloading cast boolits.

[MT Gianni]

No problem in 32 Long, big problems in 338 Lapua.

[toallmy]

I am trying to do some research on charges with power like imr 4350 or 4831to fill up case volume in a smaller case , but having no luck , I have always found that a charge that filled the case up to the neck seamed to burn more consistent with jacket bullets , but with cast I am trying to figure out how to archive same . Their is very little information on loading charges of say imr 4350 in a 223 for cast shooting .

[blackthorn]

You may find researching the use of filler on this forum interesting and informative.

[Blackwater]

Yoou've gotten good answers to your question above.

Genrally, soft lead boolits at lower pressures will require less powder, slightly, than jacketed. I have an older Colt Detective Special in .38 Sp. that is pristine and is not rated for +P loads, and simply changing bullets in it CAN raise pressures to the point that I wouldn't be very kind to the gun doing that, so ... I just don't. But the DEGREE to which it'd damage a gun wouldn't be a danger to you or to bystanders. It's just a matter of judgment and knowledge of what the effects are over the long term. And any gun that's abused by excessive loads WILL, over time, show up, and aren't readily apparent until it gets serious, and very possibly irreparable.

On the other hand, extremely hard bullets CAN, at least occasionally, produce more pressure than some jacketed, so it can potentially go either way. One useful way to think of it is that at lower pressures, soft bullets are more easy to shove down the bore by the powder, because they're just softer, and good lube helps ease that job also. Jacketed are harder on the outside, and therefore, more difficult to shove through the bore, so more pressure is expended just getting them down the bore. The jacketed, at lower pressure levels, will also usually give lower velocities because of that. It's a very mechanical process for pressure to drive a bullet through a bore.

Think of a higher pressure situation now. With a big "hammer" (high pressure) pushing the bullet, inertia demands that the front of the bullet try to remain stationary, while the pressure on the base demands it move. The result is that the softer bullet tends to "squish out" and try to expand, pushing harder on the sides of the bore as it makes its way down the barrel. At this point, the lube generally loses at least some of its effectiveness in easing its path, overcome by the sideways "squishing" out of the softer bullet's alloy. A harder bullet, though, resists this "squishing out" better at higher pressure levels. That's why one easy and pat (even if not always complete) answer to driving cast faster is going to a harder alloy.

Hope this makes sense to you, but if not ... oh well, I tried.

[toallmy]

Blackthorn , and Blackwater I thank you for a hand . I will dive into a little research on fillers along with powder choices .

[JSH]

I have had good success on several military calibers using jacketed data with cast. I start at a 10% reduced start load. Some times it was good there, other times I worked up a ways. One of the best 30-30 loads I use is a jacketed load.
I have not been casting as long as a lot of folks here. I don't tolerate leading. Size is king as always. Then there is design, alloy and lube.
Lead projectiles can and do get up to jacketed speeds with no leading at a full range session, not just one or two shots and say it is a success. Also with acceptable accuracy, groups not patterns.
Top speed of XXXXX for pistols and XXXXX for rifles, has been proven to be bull butter too.
I am not a "plinker" I dislike the term. I try for the best every time I go out. I prefer the term practice. I can beat on a coffee can to make noise.

CB's are capable of shooting just as good as a jacketed bullet on demand, no it may not be easy but it can be done and am proud to say I have several. I was told by many when I started on this journey almost 20 years ago I expected to much and they are only good for a few rounds, will lead the bore. I proved a lot to folks wrong and serve them bumps pie every chance I get get.

The loading manual comment is a good one. Problem is I have seen darn little NEW useful load data for cast. I suspect thus the OP's question.

Sorry for for the rant, but this is the last place I would have thought some of the old wives tales would still be lingering.
Jeff

[Shiloh]

Yes, at least some of the time. Start maybe 5% less than starting loads.
The good thing about thhe forum, SOMEONE is in the know.
Put the question out there and ask away.

Shiloh

[toallmy]

Well I gave lmr 4350 a try in the 223 this morning and it went just fine . I found the 20 gr load to be interesting enough to do it again . Best load was lc brass , fed small rifle primers ,20 gr charge of imr 4350 , seated just not touching . I'm shooting a 1 in 9 twist .

[Jon.Moore]

I find it interesting that no one mentioned using epoxy or powder coated bullets in this thread.. Could they also be pushed to jacketed bullet velocity?

[toallmy]

So far I have had my groups open up before alloy not holding up with gas check , so I don't think p c is called for in my situation . But on plane base would probably be helpful .

[popper]

epoxy or powder coated bullets Yes but boolit design and fit are still top dog.

[Harter66]

I can't speak to any of this actually. It seems I'm in/on book numbers or out in the weeds.

I've found in working with 222,223,6.8 ,32 Remington and 30-30 that as these go jacketed data is a fine cross over by bullet weight and OAL using the slower listed powders and starting a gr or so below start . In the case of the 32 Remington it is universally advised to use 32 Winchester data at 3.0 gr under the 4350 start load I had reached my best consistency and was at the listed maximum velocity of the data . With the 6.8 not so much but in the AR platform there are other considerations H322 @ 23.6 under a 279-124 at 129.7 gr check and lube is the apex of consistency and would put all the brass in a 5 gallon bucket. ....... at 1:00 . A little over gassed but 2150 fps +-17 . The book shows a jacketed 130 around 2250 fps max.

The 222 shows middle 2300s with a 63gr NOE 22-55 dressed over H322 @ 18.0
Jacketed shows a start load for a jacketed 62 gr at 19.0 and 24?? .

Being new in the 30-30 I haven't run it over the Chrony but I expect and have seen .... er..... felt comparable recoil from cast to jacketed . It is however the only rifle cartridge that I have exact bullet /case /primer /powder exact matches in.

The 358 Win seems to be happy but so far forget the rest of the 308 , x57 and 06' family.

About playing out in the weeds .
4350 in a 7.62 x39 with a 200gr CAST spire point in a paper patch works . BUT it is at very low pressure and makes a combination of a compressed load wit a small case and a powder so slow you can't get enough in the allowed space to get hurt . 4350 IMR cleans up about 30 kpsi and that load is just barely over that .

Use good sense and chase groups before speed .

[firefly1957]

I will make one note on this and that is about bottle necked cartridges With high pressure loads you should never seat the bullet deeper that the case neck as it can deform. I have done this in a 357-44 B&D pressures did not get to high but the bore, the muzzle brake, and the front sight were coated with lead!