Who was it that made Star sizer dies here?

[Adam10mm]

I am getting a mini lathe soon and would like some guidance on how to make these dies for my Star sizer myself.

[HeavyMetal]

Buckshot has made a few.

Had a thread a few weeks back looking for a way to streamline production of these dies.

Don't know what happened.

Used to be a fella named stillman(?) who also made these but he has retired and no current e mail address is available.

[454PB]

I've made them for my Star. What specifically do you need to know?

Star dies use a two diameter lube hole. The outer hole is large (so that it can be filled with shot if not used) and the inner hole is very small. I'd have to check my records to give you their actual diameter. The first one I made was an exact copy, and a PITA!

I've since started making them without the two diameter lube holes, and without the relief cut behind the top flange.

Here's a picture of one of my homemades:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v16/eddard49/100_0450Small.jpg

[Adam10mm]

Well, basically the steps involved.

Seems to me this is what needs to go down:

Take round stock (what alloy?) and turn it down to form the body diameter OD.

Turn down a middle section for the lube band; tapering on ends to meed the body diameter.

Drill the holes for the lube.

Drill and ream the bullet hole.

Then polish it.

I'm getting a mini lathe (Grizzly 8688 7x12) in the next few weeks. I have no machining or lathe experience and was wondering if this is a decent start to make basic stuff for myself. Figured if I could make the dies myself, I could get a bigger variety for cheaper than if I just got the Magma ones. I had a bad experience with .358 dies sizing to .355!

[454PB]

yes, you have the right idea. Turn the stock down to the diameter of the flange, then to the greater diameter of the die body, then to the reduced diameter of the lube recess. That taper at the lube recess ends looks nice, but isn't really necessary.

I use mild steel, I've used it for many years for my Lyman dies. I've never had one change inside diameter. Others use harder alloys, and Star factory dies are extremely hard. I think they are heat treat hardened after production.

If you have no experience running a lathe, I strongly suggest you either get some help and tutoring from someone that has, or take some adult education/Votech classes. You can certainly teach yourself, but it takes a lot of time. I learned more from a machinist instructor in 5 hours than I taught myself in a year. There used to be a book available called "How To Run A Lathe" published by South Bend Lathes with very good instructions, although somewhat dated.

Does your new lathe come with any carbide tooling?

[IcerUSA]

Not too hard to do freak , just take your time . Take a look at my post on needing a star sizing die , a couple of prints in there from one of the members and alot of info to boot . Here is the link :http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=28135

Keith

[Adam10mm]

yes, you have the right idea. Turn the stock down to the diameter of the flange, then to the greater diameter of the die body, then to the reduced diameter of the lube recess. That taper at the lube recess ends looks nice, but isn't really necessary.
I was wondering about that taper.



I use mild steel, I've used it for many years for my Lyman dies. I've never had one change inside diameter. Others use harder alloys, and Star factory dies are extremely hard. I think they are heat treat hardened after production.
I used to work in a steel mill that made cold drawn bar stock. What is considered mild steel? I handled 12L14, 1042, 1045, 11L37, 4140/4142, some crazy wicked stuff they called T865. Must have been some experimental Roswell stuff, cause that sure didn't like to bend. Springback like you wouldn't believe. Carbon content was a lot. Used to wreck the carbide dies all day long. We'd have an order for 5000 pounds of it and go through 3-4 dies just on one coil.


If you have no experience running a lathe, I strongly suggest you either get some help and tutoring from someone that has, or take some adult education/Votech classes. You can certainly teach yourself, but it takes a lot of time. I learned more from a machinist instructor in 5 hours than I taught myself in a year. There used to be a book available called "How To Run A Lathe" published by South Bend Lathes with very good instructions, although somewhat dated.
I saw that book in a tool catalog I have. I've been hanging out on some websites called littlemachineshop, mini-lathe, and virtualmachineshop.com. Learned a bunch of stuff. My BIL can run a lathe and is going to show me some stuff.


Does your new lathe come with any carbide tooling?
No. It does come with a steady rest and I have a list of things that make life easier. I'm looking into tooling as well. Most sources state to use hi speed steel as it is better than carbide. I have an account with MSC Supply so I can get pretty much anything.

This is the mini lathe I'm getting.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/g8688.jpg

http://www.grizzly.com/products/7-x-12-Mini-Metal-Lathe/G8688

It comes with a steady rest and face plate, which I'm told is pretty nice to have. I have a catalog from Little Machine Shop with a bunch of stuff circled in it. I found a turret style tool holder that might make tool changes very quick. Might help out on things like this.

http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1877

[Buckshot]

.............freakshow10mm, if you really get into it you'll soon have to have multiple photo's to show the 'neccesities' you'll have accumilated :-)

http://www.fototime.com/0BC9ECC796F51F9/standard.jpg

When I made Star sizer dies I made them as exact a copy to the sample I had, as possible. If you notice in the photo that the corners are rounded? To do these I used two 1/8" square lathe bits and with a Dremel I ground left and right hand radius form tools. This was one of the details about these dies that pissed me off.

Another was the 7/8" top flange and the 3/4" body. That's 1/8" differance in OD. While I have no problem taking off 1/8" in one pass (.0625" infeed) the 3/4" body is a critical dimension as it has to seal to the press casting to contain the lube. So for me I have to creep up on it and take it down in 3 passes to assure myself I hit .750" exactly. To my way of thinking, an 'O' ring around each should suffice. As a consequence the .750" shoulders can now have a couple thou tolerance.

Anyway, the 1/8" removed is an issue due to the length of that 1/8" being removed, and all because of that 7/8" flange. An idea I had and posted the question about, was to use an 'E' clip to retain the die in it's bore, to replace the flange. If that would work you could buy ground and polished .750" stock. That would be a MAJOR time and cost saver. Instead of taking off 1/8" of steel for a 1.5" run (or whatever it was) to a critical OD, all you'd have to do was cut the groove for the 'E' clip.

Another time saver and simplification would be to eliminate the radiused edges and subsitute simple angles as 454PB showed. You could do both right and left bevels with one tool having the angles ground into the opposing sides of the bit. Straight angles are a lot easier to grind then quarter circles.

Finally, and the killer for the deal of me making any more Star dies is the lube holes. I have a jig I made up for drilling the lube holes in Lyman/RCBS dies. This goes into a compound vise on the DP table. Drill all the way through the die body, advancing the compound vise each time and you shortly have 6 lube holes (3 holes drilled all the way through). Rotate the die body 90* and drill 2 more centered between the earlier 3. See photo below:

http://www.fototime.com/5323B9CDF1A9125/standard.jpg

I've since tightened up the hole spacing, but you can see what I mean. I used the same fixture for the Star die, but each hole has to be done individually, and touched twice!!!!! What tedious BS. Drill, advance, drill, advance and drill. Swap out bits and drill, retract, drill, retract and drill. Then rotate the die and repeat for however many rows the customer wants.

After a half dozen Star dies I said the hell with this [smilie=b: I'm sure you could find taper bits that would work, but you're STILL drilling each hole one at a time. Sucks.

..............Buckshot

[Buckshot]

....................How I made the dies is the same as how I make Lyman or Lee die body blanks. That is to setup the tools in the tool blocks and then zero each one to the zero on the crossfeed dial. Tools setup as below:

http://www.fototime.com/6A7B4820DA9AEED/standard.jpg

If you don't have a quick change toolpost, you'll be a tool changin' maniac :-) Those tools are setup in sequence of operation. The one closest in the photo being the first one used, as below:

http://www.fototime.com/AC67BD08BC34BC3/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/065AEE68C7DAC46/standard.jpg

Left Photo First step is to face off. Right Photo Traverse the carriage toward the headstock 1.560", plunge the tool to set the length. Then retract back out .148"and power feed to the right to turn the die body to .702" OD .250" short of the end and back out .020" to finish. The upper end of the die is .720" OD.

http://www.fototime.com/2BD3B326BC7EEC5/standard.jpg

Next step is to cut the 60* bevel on the base (no photo), then cut the 'O' ring groove as is being done in the above photo.

http://www.fototime.com/37F8EF0616265BF/standard.jpg

The final op is to part off the completed blank. I can make a blank in about 5 minutes and when I make them I usually run two 36" sticks of .750" W1 steel for about 40 blanks. There are only 2 dimensions on the Lyman-RCBS die bodies that bear watching. One is the length but +/- .005" is fine and I aim for 1.560". The other is the upper end of the die that goes inside the retaining nut and it's a nominal .720" to .715".

Since you'll be working from a jawed chuck, you'll need to scribe an index mark on the die body indexed to one of the chuck jaws before parting it off. This way you can put it back exactly as it was before. You will have to remove the die body at least once before it's finished to drill the lube holes. Since this causes pig's ears on break though, you'll want to do the drilling before you ream or bore so either of these OPS will remove them easily.

..................Buckshot

[Adam10mm]

Thanks a lot for your insight and pics.

I have my book marks filled with a lot of goodies for the mini lathe. I have live centers, countless tool bits, quick change tool holder, a DRO, a knurler, various tailstock chucks, center gauge, and a host of upgrades that should make life easier.

I'm keeping my out at local auctions for lathe goodies. I'll be getting a mini mill too, from Grizzly, and have been working on a wish list for that too.

The main reason I'm getting into this, is I'm starting to make firearms and will be paying the special occupational tax to make NFA weapons. I'm looking at making sound suppressors, so I'll need a lathe and mill for that. I figure while I have the tooling, I can also make my Star dies and other little reloading projects. Maybe tweak a swaging die or two. I have one that needs a bullet punch so I can make that easily.

[miestro_jerry]

I would use 4140 for the die steel, keep you tools sharp, drill sub sized holes and use reamer to make them round.

I use a 14 x 40 metal lathe for doing such things.

Good Luck

Jerry

[Adam10mm]

I have an account with MSC, so I can get reamers from them. 4140 is easy to get online. I have a few metal suppliers saved.

[cuzinbruce]

I bought a copy of that book from Brownells a while back.

[Marine Sgt 2111]

I used to supply Magma and Ballisticast with star type sizer dies 18-20 years ago. I shall see if I still have the drawings I made them from.

I used to use O-1 steel, have it vacuum heat treated (so there was no scale on the dies) after the dies were made to a 60-62 Rockwell (that's harder than woodpecker lips).

They were then O.D. ground with a +.0005" -.0000 tolerance, the I.D. honed with a 5 micro finish. I allowed for a certain amount of "alloy" pop when the sized slugs came out the other end depending on the bore diameter.

That's for what it's worth.[smilie=1:

[garandsrus]

Dwight,

It's amazing the variety of folks that have found their way here...

I have a couple questions if you don't mind:

o How did you drill the multi step holes? Did you have a stepped drill bit?
o What did you use to hone the dies? I purchased some brass laps and diamond paste which worked well on the one die I have made so far. I didn't heat treat the steel though.

Thanks,
John

[Irascible]

I went looking for Stillwell tool and die to ad the link. He seems to have dissapeared? Is he gone or just moved

[Buckshot]

I went looking for Stillwell tool and die to ad the link. He seems to have dissapeared? Is he gone or just moved

..............Stillwell has retired, folded up the tents and moved off down the road.

..............Buckshot

[Marine Sgt 2111]

Dwight,

It's amazing the variety of folks that have found their way here...

I have a couple questions if you don't mind:

o How did you drill the multi step holes? Did you have a stepped drill bit?
o What did you use to hone the dies? I purchased some brass laps and diamond paste which worked well on the one die I have made so far. I didn't heat treat the steel though.

Thanks,
John

What I did, since I made all of the dies with the same spacing was to make up a octagon fixture into which the die was put and held in place by a set screw (this reads don't wrench on the screw because it's just holding the die from rotating not steady during the drilling process).

I drilled the three rows of holes, for drill bushings. The first and third were inline with the holes space every 90 degrees around the outside of the fixture. The middle row was drilled again every other flat (90 degrees) but rotated 45 degrees (one side of the octagon). The drill bushings were for the larger hole, I believe .088" and drilled to a depth (the tip of the drill point) of within .03 of the I.D. bore.

The dies was then removed from the fixture and placed in a v block on a bridge port and drilled through freehand. I tried in the beginning to center drill, drill the .088 holes and then the smaller vent hole on a machining center using an indexing head. It just took to long and took up CNC machine time. With the fixture, you can do the whole thing on a bridgeport.

Considering the fact that your dies are not hardened a brass lap should be fine but I would recommend using Clover Lapping compound instead of diamond lapping compound. The clover compound can be easily cleaned from the die inner surface as you change grades and achieve size. Diamond lapping compound tends to embed itself into the surface of the steel and more so in un heat treated steel.

Also remember I was making from 200 to 500 of these dies at a time so making them in a timely fashion was paramont.

I hope that answers your questions....any further ones ask away.

[garandsrus]

Dwight,

Thanks! I like the idea of an 8 sided fixture to index the holes.

John

[IcerUSA]

OK guys , I took buckshot's idea and played with the idea of O-rings and this is just a ruff blank as I wanted to check to see how well it would hold lube and it did a very good job of it as it pressurized to the point that the plunger for the lube would stop as soon as it got past the lube port from the tube . I just wish I had the small diameter O-rings but I don't so the ID might not be able to be made as one would like with say a .500+ dia. .

I made the body of the die a couple thou undersize is all so if it moves any at all it would only be about a thou float which should be acceptable .

Here are a couple pic's :
7566

7567

Keith

[Buckshot]

..............Looks good! If you could substitute an 'E' clip for the flange to retain the die, you could use .750" ground and polished stock. This would save time, as it would eliminate turning down the OD from the flange to the body. Plus you'd only have to put in a simple groove for the 'E' clip. You would save money via the reduction in machining time and tool changes. Plus you would save by buying .750" stock instead of the larger OD material.

......................Buckshot

[IcerUSA]

The flange only keeps the die from going thru so the E-clip should work also .
Doing a leak test now , went back to the lathe and finished the sizer to .431 . Sized a few boolits with GC , left 1 in the sizer with the pressure handle cranked down on the lube , will see if it leaks out overnight .
Looks promising so far.
Might give the E-clip a try if I have any that size .
Sure will make it easier to make sizers for the Star.

Keith

[Marine Sgt 2111]

Oh hey you are very welcome. THe only problem is that the fixture leaves you no latitude (unless you manually retract the die from the fixture check the spacing with a depth mic) to space the holes at different distances. You have to remember one thing the understide of the flange governs the placement of the holes location on the die. Whether or not the holes are exactly 90 degrees indexed around the outside of the die or whether the middles row of holes is exactly rotated 45 degrees to the first and third rows is again really not that important.

On the plus side of all of this is that while in the basement going through some boxes looking for the original drawings I made years ago to make these dies, I found several bags of different sizes of brand new dies that I must have oiled, bagged and put in an ammo box and forgot about. I will check the sizes and put them up on the board later this weekend.:drinks:


Dwight,

Thanks! I like the idea of an 8 sided fixture to index the holes.

John

[Marine Sgt 2111]

Hey Buckshot, remember you must maintain the .7500/.7505 O.D. so that you don't damage the luber's I.D. where the die sits. I would recommend against using a clip and stay with the flange design for several reasons.

First and fore most is that the flange under surface takes the full thrust of the bullet being pushed and swaged through the die. The flange tolerance thickness is .120/.124. At least that is what I held them to for the magma and ballisticast auto sizers. for your own personal use, in a manual sizer you could get away with making the flange as thin as .100"

IMHO:Fire:

[Buckshot]

you must maintain the .7500/.7505 O.D. so that you don't damage the luber's I.D. where the die sits. I would recommend against using a clip and stay with the flange design for several reasons.

First and fore most is that the flange under surface takes the full thrust of the bullet being pushed and swaged through the die.

IMHO:Fire:

...............Right, I understand the need for the flange. I also understant the need for the close clearance between die and press body, as there is no other seal to keep lube from escaping. I'm curious as to how a die body of the correct diameter is going to damage the bore of the press by being retained by an 'E' clip vs a flange.

Is it that under the pressure of forcing a boolit through die would cause the 'E' clip to damage the mouth of the bore?

.............Buckshot

[IcerUSA]

Test results on the overnight test was a success , no leakage .
Have been thinking about the E-clip but think a cir-clip might do a better job as the force against it would be in the 90 to 95 % range .
Might even try it with a reusable moon clip that could be slid out and the next die used to push the die in the sizer out , slip the moon clip on just before setting the new die , should stay in place as there is no movement other than the downward pressure .
Just ideas at the moment . :)

Keith

[Marine Sgt 2111]

Roger that Buckshot. An e clip will be fairly thin conpared to the flange, a clip can flex and "chew up" the edge of the bore that the die fits into. That is the very reason there is a relief groove on the die body, to avoid damaging the edge of the bore.

IMHO

[lathesmith]

Freak, looks like you have a nice new toy headed your way. To me, those mini-lathes are a lot like a 410 shotgun; they are often dissed as a "beginner's" or "kid"s" tool, when the truth is that both are very effective tools that are better utilized in the hands of experts rather than beginners. It is alot easier for a beginner to learn the basics with either a 12 gauge or a larger lathe. But that don't mean you can't learn machine work with a mini-lathe--you just have to have more patience and learn the craft within the limitations of the smaller tool's work envelope.
Hopefully, you will be able to find a local mentor to get you started with the basics; you can learn more in a few months this way than probably a few years on your own. Also, you are in good company here; ask lots of questions, and don't be afraid to try new things. The internet is a wonderful source of info for learning this and other skills; spend lots of time reading and researching, it will be time well-spent.
As far as specific tooling recommendations, I have plenty, as I have just outfitted my own garage in a similar fashion in the past few years. I opted for the slightly larger 8x12 lathe, and have been very happy with what I can do with it. I won't bore or bog you down with gobs of recommendations, but I don't mind sharing a few insights that are rather unique to smaller machines. To get started, I assume you don't have any HSS tool bit grinding experience. Based on my recent experience, I would recommend you get one of those inexpensive carbide-insert tool holders from Grizzly (or others) that use those TCMT 2151 inserts. This will get you cutting metal quickly and rather easily, and with a minimum of hassle. The great thing about these insert tools is that to get a new sharp edge, just rotate the insert; nothing else is required. This is perfect for a beginner.
Happy turning,
lathesmith

[chrisx1]

Would any of you guys turning these out be interested in selling some of your work?
After reading this thread, you may not be able to sell it for under the $40 that Magma sells them for.
If you could sell them for $30 they would probably go like hotcakes!!