A verse for the pit

[rl69]

I love discussing doctrin. I love too talk with people are not sure about their salvation.but more often then not, at least in the pit, those discussions get out of hand. So here is a vers we need too keep on our harts when talking with unbelievers.

14 (http://biblehub.com/2_timothy/2-14.htm)Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen

we are led by the spirit we know the truth we don't have to justify our fath to anyone.

just my two , take it for what it's worth

[johnson1942]

when you go to the pit it isnt church, its the open door to anyone with a finger that moves before their brain. they have no life but their they can bay and bay and bay. they can over whelm by rambling words. thats the way it is. they have no interest in Christ and why he came from God. here maybe their is a chance to discuss the reality of God and his Son. maybe. or is this place just for prayer request? im comfused as to where christians can discuss to each other God and his Son, is this the place or not?

[rl69]

We can and should discuss Christ everywhere. Just when the discussing turns to arguing we need to shake the dust from our feet and move on.

[Boaz]

Discussion doesn't bother me until it causes division . This is a non denotational gathering of Christians . Talking theology could be beneficial in understanding others opinion , method of worship , etc . It can also cause a lot of problems and hard feeling .

I don't discuss theology here I suppose it's fine , if done with respect to others involved . We all adhere to basic Christian principals here . Not my call , follow your conviction .

[Boaz]

We can and should discuss Christ everywhere. Just when the discussing turns to arguing we need to shake the dust from our feet and move on.


Your right rl69 , no one could argue with your suggestion under most conditions. However there is a time to say ....Get behind thee Satan .

[rl69]

Is that our place?

The he way we deal we believers is different then how we deal with the lost.

[Blackwater]

I dunno, guys. RL, I love ya', but I think I'm gonna' have to differ with you on this one. That probably wont' surprise anyone who hangs out in the pit very much, but to me, we Christians have used that "shake the dust" passage for far too long to justify our abandoning an arguement because it simply doesn't please us to stay in it. And all the while we've been using that verse as an excuse to disengage when the going gets rough, we've simply allowed the non-believers to dominate the conversation when we leave.

IMO, and it's just my opinion, of course, we've been WAY too lax in picking and choosing where we show our faith, and often, in how we do it. Meanwhile, look at what's been happening all around us, and to our nation! Does anyone here think that's just a coincidence? It's been said for many years now, that all that's necessary for evil to overcome good, is for good people to sit and do nothing. You can add sit and remain silent to that, too. And that's exactly what we've done for many years now.

I'm old enough to remember when Baptists and Methodists would argue until they were red in the face and their blood vessels stuck out so far you just knew they were about to explode! But not one ever came to fisticuffs, and in a few days, they were back to being friends. I marvel at how delicate we Christians have become today! We can't even (or won't) engage in a simple, spirited argument! And as a result, what do our kids think when they see us disengage the very moment when we're most tested?

Christ encouraged us to have heart, and I think this applies even (if not especially?) when we are engaged with loud-mouthed deniers and other haughty types. Would Christ abandon US if he weren't provided with an easy way? Nope. And I don't think he expects us to drop the issue the very minute things get "tough," either! For heaven's sake! He DIED ON THE CROSS FOR US! Can we now not even stomach a spirited and dogged arguent????

Too often, we use the Bible and its many verses to justify what WE want to do, and we never consider the consequences of doing what WE want, vs. what God needs us to do. Do we REALLY have "the courage of our convictions?" For far too long, we haven't shown much courage or tenacity, or defiance of evil and evil ideas. So, when we look around, how can we explain and justify how WE have LET things get THIS bad???? If we'd done our due diligence for Christ better and more completely and more often, do you REALLY think things would be this bad now? Really???

When Christians lose faith, and just walk away, it's always taken as a weakness, and usually as an admission that our case is weak. Onlookers who might be considering learning more about our Savior may be disuaded from even inquiring. Are those souls not on OUR conscience? Really?

We too often today, no matter what our religion or beliefs, simply walk away from any sort of difficulty or dissension. That's PC theology, NOT Christianity!!! And we can use the Bible to justify it from now to the end, but the REAL question is, "Am I my brother's keeper?" Not all will be won, of course, but I am firmly and pretty well incontrovertibly convinced that we've all failed in many, many ways to do our due diligence to the Christ who gave his very life's blood for OUR sins on the cross. And we can't even uphold or abide a good, spirited argument in return for him???? Sheesh! No WONDER so many discount Christianity as an effective belief! If we can't even argue in a good, old fashioned argument, then what use is our belief? To us it may serve, but Christ never said for us to sit and keep salvation to our own selves, did he?

I know nobody seems to enjoy arguing these days, but again, that's PC and personal convenience, and it's NOT Biblical to disengage UNLESS there's no hope for anyone involved. In that case, we may well be justified and wise in "shaking the dust," but when there are many onlookers, and we can't know who might be examining our performance and considering making real inquiry that might save THEIR soul, should we disengage then, and leave them to the wolves???? Essentially, "am I my brother's keeper?" We all know the answer to that question, but when it requires something strenuous of us, and challenging, what do we do? Just find the most convenient and best sounding excuse we can come up with, and .... do what we want to, and disengage, but it's for our OWN benefit and satisfaction, and NOT something Christ ever meant in his advice and counsel to us.

That's my view, anyway, and YMMV, and probably will. I too was, for years, avoiding the pit for the very same sentiment expressed here. But it always irked me to see the "wolves" getting away with all that they've so long gotten away with there, and finally, I said to myself "Somebody ought'a DO something about that!" But when I looked around, there was nobody standing but me! I kind'a trapped myself, really! I knew I wasn't the best one for the job, but I knew SOMEBODY needed to step up and step in, and at least SEE if they could counter the dominance that the non-believers had so long enjoyed in the pit.

And brothers, there's not a one of you here who can't and shouldn't contribute your own little bit there to keep our faith defended, and defended to the very best of our ability. No, it's not the kind of thing we can call a "pleasure," but it's our due diligence, is it not? Can we not even endure a simple argument for Christ's sake? Can we not even defend our faith with simple words? Are we so delicate and spoiled that we don't even have the stomach for THAT???? With all Christ suffered for US????

C'mon, guys! It ain't fun, but neither was the humiliation, scourging and crucifixion. We're getting off mighty light, I think. Don't you???

[rl69]

Don't get me wrong, my faith and my doctrine or unshakable by man. I will gladly go to my death for my beliefs.the point of the verse is that arguing with the lost profits no one,the lord has put a vail over their eyes so they cannot see .

[rl69]

2 Corinthians 2:14-16 But thank God! He has made us his captives and continues to lead us along in Christ’s triumphal procession. Now he uses us to spread the knowledge of Christ everywhere, like a sweet perfume. Our lives are a Christ-like fragrance rising up to God. But this fragrance is perceived differently by those who are being saved and by those who are perishing. To those who are perishing, we are a dreadful smell of death and doom. But to those who are being saved, we are a life-giving perfume. And who is adequate for such a task as this?

[johnson1942]

we already have a ya butter here who is a master at it. it would be sweet if the rest of us could have a nice talk about God and his Son here and not in the pit.

[Pine Baron]

I have ambivalent feelings about getting involved in the "Pit".
On the one hand it's an opportunity to reach out to some of those who are sincerely looking for answers and direction. I feel like we MUST provide a gentle, loving nudge in the right direction, it's a duty to God.
On the other hand there are those that just seem obligated to cause consternation and distress. They are the ones hiding behind their keyboards. I feel mostly sympathetic and sad for them. My feeling is that those lost souls have suffered some trauma that has hardened their hearts and turned them cynical. Those are the ones that need the most gentle and careful consideration.
I just let the Holy Spirit speak for me as my faith is strong and I only wish peace for all. Their Salvation, well that's their choice.

[johnson1942]

your very kind, thank you for that. i also will after many years of mental health care work also can pinpoint a few who have personality disorders. they thrive on attention, good or bad, makes no difference to them, they will do anything to get it. its one fire that cant get enough fuel. they even can be educated and very articuate but they still have personality disorders. i had one recently pm me and tell me i had to stand in front of a mirror and recite the lords prayer thousands of time looking at my self while doing to get right with God. im not going to name anyone here that has this problem, but they are here. they are not like those seeking or just like to argue, they are more sly than that. one of them is very out in the open. again, we are open to the world here, these are not behind closed church doors. again, it would be wonderful to talk to fellow believers here on the chapel with out the personality disorders ruining the whole thing like a cloud of grasshoppers. a clue, look for the ones with the big i box that they stand on. its all about I, I, I, I, I. Lets have church and see what happens.

[Preacher Jim]

Witnessing is not arguing like some do in the pit. it is sharing what Jesus did for you. when you go in to tirades to impress the masses you are not sharing Jesus and what he is doing in your life today. i might post something if the Lord leads me but i am not going back and dedating it because then they win and you lose no matter how wordy or elequent your speech.
my dad always said beware of those who try to baffle you with words cause they are usually trying to baffle you with el toro pute.
say what Jesus is doing for you and let the Holy Spirit do the convicting. He does not need your help.

[montana_charlie]

Witnessing is not arguing like some do in the pit. it is sharing what Jesus did for you. when you go in to tirades to impress the masses you are not sharing Jesus and what he is doing in your life today.
Are you referring to tirades like this one?


i also will after many years of mental health care work also can pinpoint a few who have personality disorders. they thrive on attention, good or bad, makes no difference to them, they will do anything to get it. its one fire that cant get enough fuel. they even can be educated and very articuate but they still have personality disorders. i had one recently pm me and tell me i had to stand in front of a mirror and recite the lords prayer thousands of time looking at my self while doing to get right with God. im not going to name anyone here that has this problem, but they are here. they are not like those seeking or just like to argue, they are more sly than that. one of them is very out in the open. again, we are open to the world here, these are not behind closed church doors. again, it would be wonderful to talk to fellow believers here on the chapel with out the personality disorders ruining the whole thing like a cloud of grasshoppers. a clue, look for the ones with the big i box that they stand on. its all about I, I, I, I, I. Lets have church and see what happens.

[Pine Baron]

"el toro pute". Now that's funny right there I don't care who you are.:lol:

[Blackwater]

This issue has long been a subject of controversy among Christians. It was first to rise among the desciples as they walked with Jesus. Christ's answers to them seems always to have been primarily focused on the specific situation at hand at that time, but could be broadened out, at the hearer's pleasure, to other areas. This is where Christianity gets difficult. G. K. Chesterton, in one of his many, many defenses of Christianity, once commented that, "Christianity has never been tried and found wanting; it has simply been found difficult, and left untried."

All of us here believe in the 100% Truth in the Bible and its verses. How we interpret them has always varied. This is, I think, one of the great reasons why Christ admonished us all to "study to show thyself approved." At least that makes sense to me, and who among us can simply adopt another's views by an act of simple will? If there's one here who can do that, then they're not filled with real faith, but with a sense of submissiveness.

We all have to find our own ways, and the most unfortunate part of Christianity is the way we tend to think ONLY we are "right," and anyone who disagrees with us is wrong and a fool. T'ain't necessarily so, boys! We all see through the glass darkly. I think we can all agree on that? That being so, then, could it not be that we were from the first, INTENDED to differ, even devoutly, so that Christ can use us in various ways that a mono-faceted body could never be used? That makes sense to me to, if to no other. The task of living in and making this world better is many faceted, and a never-ending struggle.

I still think - and will do so unless and until someone shows me the error of my ways - that we Christians all to often serve our OWN wills and preferences rather than actually serving Christ. And we use the Bible as we WANT to to justify ourselves. Given mankind's natural tendencies, how could we not do this? Is it not logical and rational that Christ would want and need, and thus provide, each of us with differing talents and traits, so that we could fulfill some purpose He has in mind? We all know how diverse we all are, even within any given group, like among Christians. Why would anyone thing there were NOT a purpose in this?

And yet, the foremost and near consistent thing we hear about anyone who doesn't accept our particular brand of group-think, is that they're not even Christian!!!! REALLY???? What a farce!

In my experience, it's those who don't want to accept anyone who doesn't think like them, who are the biggest and worst danger to our faith that there is. Is Christianity as narrow as the Jihadis believe Islam to be???? It's the very self-same principle, just applied in a different way toward a different religion, is it not?

Self-righteousness is a trait that we have been rather sternly warned against, is it not? And yet, it's often one of the first traits non-believers notice about us, or at least many of us, when we're commenting about some issue and aren't aware that a non-believer is forming their sense of Christianity by the behavior and ideas we portray.

Like Chesterton said, all too often, we fall prey to finding real Christianity difficult, and making up our own rules for our responses, that serve us rather than our Lord. Is there anyone here among us who hans't done this? And the more common it becomes, the easier it is to get away with it, is it not? And once it becomes an established way of responding, and heads nod in approval of this tactic, how could evil do anything BUT grow? Evil does NOT respond to our will. It only fears the Lord's. It is ONLY diminished by advancing the LORD's ways, not by our own wishes or desires.

Truly, if we Christians falter, and adopt our own wills as a substitute for the Lord's, will we not merit the growth of evil all around us? We know that because we are not really fighting islamic extremism, it has grown virulently, and its effects increase. If we Christians start giving in to our own wills, and calling it "God's will," have we not lost the whole battle even before the first shot is fired?

There'll be widely varying views of this and my above post. That's OK. That's as it'll always be. But when some declare passionate responses to the attempt to spread evil and evil thooughts, I think it's time for some real soul-searching all around. I've searched mine, and I know whereof my insistence in the pit originates and springs. Those who differ in the issue are welcome to do so, but it'd probably be appropriate to question whence these views come, I think.

Christianity was never, from the first, intended to be a monolithic aggregation of human robots, all spouting forth the same tired old verses on command. We were always intended to be very much human, but the very best of humanity. Maybe not perfect - who here is? - but the best there is on the earth. Instead, we do like the Republicans do in the political realm, and argue and fight among ourselves, and all too often about the mote in another's eye while disregarding the log in our own. It's just what we tend to do, because we WANT salvation AND to have our own way and serve our own needs simultaneously. In a way, the best way to identify the most devout among us is to see who it is who serves their own wishes and needs the least! Find someone like that, and you're probably on the trail of a true believer, and one who serves the Lord before they serve their own wills and desires. That's been my experience, anyway, and it's an easy factor to miss, simply because we so often view everything that surrounds us from the perspective of only our own will and desire. It's just how we typically tend to work as humans.

But I'm happy to be a part of such a diverse religion, personally. It keeps me fascinated and searching, and once in a while, learning. But the choice of whose will it is we're serving at any given moment will always be a matter for much debate and conjecture among us. It's not wrong that we question each other, PROVIDED it's an honest inquiry, and not an effort to tear down another just to build our own selves and our particular views up. Some, it seems, can't or don't distinguish between trying to tear someONE down, vs. tearing down their IDEAS they espouse and try to ram down other's gullets. There IS a clear difference, usually, but it's not fashionable now to notice these things. If it's a choice between fashion and truth, I'll take truth every time, insofar as I'm given to see it. And if I pursue a matter and get shown an error in my ways (not just against the fashions that exist), then I'm perfectly happy to admit it. It's one of the reason I jumped in at the pit to start with. If my ideas couldn't stand up there, then it would be evident it's time to restructure them until they did. Not much of that goes on in the pit, of course, and it's often a quick degeneration into contests of sheer will. That's when most Christians decide to just walk away. But then the bullies are allowed, and we have a part in it, to dominate. I simply refuse to let bullies, who always seem to represent some facet of evil, to dominate. Why would that be a wrong or bad thing? Remember, all that's necessary for evil to overcome good is for good men to sit and do nothing (or simply walk away from a "discussion" that is no longer pleasurable).

No, it's not much fun, but if we don't do it, who will? I've been very heartened to see more and more Christians chipping in there to defend our faith and beliefs. It matters when we do things like that. No, it's not the more pleasurable part of Christianity, but Christ himself promised us a very hard time in this world, but that He'd always be there for us in any trial we might face. Can we then just walk away from these bullies and evil precepts, and just leave many of our brethren to those dogs, who MIGHT be saved? Gimme a break, here! If it's not given to someone to have the wherewithall to counter people like those who have so consistently dominated in the pit, then at least, we ought to support those who at least give it their best, do we not? Christianity wasn't given to us for us to hide it under a bushel. It was given to us so that we might spread it, and save as many as might be saved. And turning away from a good argument just because it's not pleasurable for us, is putting US first, and our Lord LAST, isn't it? It's a question each of us has to decide for our own selves. And the concept of Christians as pious, quiet, self-absorbed "angels on earth" is one we need to shed from ourselves. We've NEVER been like that, EVER! And we're not likely ever TO be, either. We're a bunch of redeemed sinners, struggling to find Truth as best as we can know it, and to spread the Word as we're able and get the chance to do that. It's really simple, and not glorious at all. All glory rightfully belongs to Christ, who died for all of us, but many seek glory for themselves instead. Were the apostles themselves not dealt with rather curtly when they showed any signs of judgmentalism among themselves? How much more should we, now, be dealt with when we get more "uppity" than other believers?

This is a question we almost consistently forget to ask ourselves. Baptists once were taught to look down on Catholics as a "sect," and toward Methodists as strange and inexplicable, and at Presbyterians as extremists. And what has that gotten us? Just like with the Republicans, a fractious, ever smaller and ever less effective band of believers who fight among themselves rather than against evil!!! THAT is what it has gotten us!

Who cares whether somebody sees some point differently than we do? I'm just thankful for my salvation, and for the One who purchased it for me. Nothing I could ever do or have done could merit it. It was given so freely, so lovingly, and so devotedly to us, that we OUGHT to be humbled by it forever! But sadly, we so often allow pridefulness and self-grandiosity arise within our own selves, and we begin tearing at each other, and tearing each other down, instead of doing what Christ always intended for us to do! Are we the most unruly lot possible, or what???

But every Christian MUST decide for THEMSELVES what they believe and how they'll show it, and whether they're up to standing against evil or just want to graze on the green grass that the Lord has provided to us .... for now. Some will always take up arms to try to maintain that green grass, and those are often looked down upon, it seems. There is no real justice in this world, but justice IS coming, and most of us don't think it's going to be long in getting here now. Play your own game as you will, but stay out of others' games, and don't tell those who aren't afraid of a good fight how "bad" they are for that. It's rather idiotic and short-sighted to do that, isn't it?

[Preacher Jim]

Ask your self the question, if I were reading this would I see the Lord at work in lives Today?
All the Answers to prayer here show the lost Jesus is real and helping that person who was prayed for. If he can do that, he can change my life if I am borned again into God's family. I need that.
Religion is not Christianity, Christianity is a relationshipwith the Father through the Son.
Religion is doing the same thing religously.

[rl69]

your very kind, thank you for that. i also will after many years of mental health care work also can pinpoint a few who have personality disorders. they thrive on attention, good or bad, makes no difference to them, they will do anything to get it. its one fire that cant get enough fuel. they even can be educated and very articuate but they still have personality disorders. i had one recently pm me and tell me i had to stand in front of a mirror and recite the lords prayer thousands of time looking at my self while doing to get right with God. im not going to name anyone here that has this problem, but they are here. they are not like those seeking or just like to argue, they are more sly than that. one of them is very out in the open. again, we are open to the world here, these are not behind closed church doors. again, it would be wonderful to talk to fellow believers here on the chapel with out the personality disorders ruining the whole thing like a cloud of grasshoppers. a clue, look for the ones with the big i box that they stand on. its all about I, I, I, I, I. Lets have church and see what happens.

This is what I was trying to get at. We are called to speak the truth boldly in love. We are not called to be silent, but if someone will not except the truth,it is better to move on then to sit and fight with them.it only makes us look bad to those who are truly searching.

[Hickory]

Don't get me wrong, my faith and my doctrine or unshakable by man. I will gladly go to my death for my beliefs.the point of the verse is that arguing with the lost profits no one, the devil has put a vail over their eyes so they cannot see .

I think this is a more correct statement.

[Boaz]

I don't think there is enough 'controversy' among us to warrant debate at this point . We are all on the same page . However this is a good thread in the respect of affirming our common thought on the subject . Only solidarity has been shown here . There are non arguable issues here such as .....we are to spread the gospel , we are to testify , we are to obey the second commandment , etc . There is continuity in our thoughts and conviction in our hearts .

For a group of individuals from different churchs , different places , different lives to seek the work together proves and confirms commitment to our Lord . Our common thought , conviction binds us together .

Affirmation of our Lord Jesus Christ is shown through our words , acts , and lives .

[Pine Baron]

rl,
While I don't disagree with your observation, I would make mention, that a discussion with those that provide contentious and "veiled" views may seem to be casting seed on barren ground, when in reality they are viewed by outside eyes. These eyes may indeed be the ones that God intends to allow us to reach out to. Recently we have witnessed a member of this forum, who after 40 years has returned to church. Hallelujah, God is indeed working through us.
We cannot be deterred by the deceitful, lying, angry devil. Only diligence, patience, love and faith in God will overcome the crooked path that WE allowed to develop and that others have chosen to follow.
BW, you are right, it's not easy and never was meant to be easy.
From a personal level, I am renewed, humbled and thankful to ALL of you. This "Chapel" of ours, open to all, accepted by some, is a testament of God's will and fellowship of men gathered and strong in Jesus name.
Go in peace.

[Freightman]

The Apostle Paul admonished the young preacher Timothy to 2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
The phrase in season(when it is popular) and out of season (when it is unpopular) tell us to preach the gospel. Read the two books of Timothy and the book of Titus, a child of God is not going to be popular and he will suffer because of Christ, but count that as a blessing. I try not to have an opinion answer all questions with the Word. My opinion is not any better than anyone's and with my opinion and a $1 I might be able to buy a cup of coffee.

[rl69]

rl,
While I don't disagree with your observation, I would make mention, that a discussion with those that provide contentious and "veiled" views may seem to be casting seed on barren ground, when in reality they are viewed by outside eyes. These eyes may indeed be the ones that God intends to allow us to reach out to. Recently we have witnessed a member of this forum, who after 40 years has returned to church. Hallelujah, God is indeed working through us.
We cannot be deterred by the deceitful, lying, angry devil. Only diligence, patience, love and faith in God will overcome the crooked path that WE allowed to develop and that others have chosen to follow.
BW, you are right, it's not easy and never was meant to be easy.
From a personal level, I am renewed, humbled and thankful to ALL of you. This "Chapel" of ours, open to all, accepted by some, is a testament of God's will and fellowship of men gathered and strong in Jesus name.
Go in peace.

i agree 100%. we just need to be mindful of when we start turning people away from Christ.

[claude]

We can and should discuss Christ everywhere.

Not so, one must protect their credibility. Meaning trying to discuss Jesus in a crowd that has no use for Him will quickly brand one "that crazy bible thumper" and everything you say after that is no longer credible. Furthermore, EVERYTHING has a time and a place;

Ecc 3:17 (https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/ecc/3/17/s_662017) I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

Veils..


the devil has put a vail over their eyes so they cannot see .



So Has God;

2Th 2:11 (https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2th/2/11/s_1118011) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Why would God send them delusion (cast a veil)?

2Th 2:12 (https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2th/2/12/s_1118012) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Why waste your wisdom on those choosing not to believe?

Mat 7:6 (https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/mat/7/6/s_936006) Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

I know you are zealous, and am not poking a finger in your eye, rather offering enlightenment, additionally we are admonished to exercise moderation;

https://www.blueletterbible.org/assets/images/copyChkboxOff.gif Phl 4:5 (https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/phl/4/5/s_1107005)
Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.


ἐπιεικής epieikḗs, ep-ee-i-kace'; from G1909 (https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1909) and G1503 (https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1503); appropriate, i.e. (by implication) mild:—gentle, moderation, patient.

Simply put, you can do more harm than good by insisting on stuffing Jesus in every face you meet without regard to the second parties reception. The apostles surely didn't corner people at the local market and expound on Jesus to the extent that those people would say damned near anything to get away from them, or catch them in their truck hauling down route 66 doing about 80 and start firing up the Jesus talks.

Jer 13:10 (https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/jer/13/10/s_758010) This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.

There is a lot of that out there today.

[rl69]

Claud you and I are saying the same thing,more or less. What seams to be getting lost is who we are talking to. You quoted me in that" we should discuss Christ everywhere" and I stand by that, but I agree with you, it does no good to discuss Christ with people who don't want to hear it. It only makes us look foolish. But if there is just one in that crowd with ears to hear we must speak boldly,wouldn't you agree?

There are three types of people in this world. the lost, the saved,and the soon to be saved.we need to learn how to tell the difference. Actually, we need the spirt to show us the deferance

[Blackwater]

Some good points made, but no sane man (and I don't think anyone here is insane) is going to just spout off for our Lord where ONLY evil dwells. But when confronted with a situation where innocents are looking on as evil is spouted forth profusely, what about those innocents? Do we just allow the bullies and non-believers to dominate, and thus, take those innocents, and not put up a good and challenging fight for them?

Let's try to remember that Saul was a hater of Christians and loved seeing them stoned, until on the road to Damascus, God struck him blind, and he became the apostle Paul, taking his new name because the old Saul was now dead within him, and the new person, Paul, chief writer of the New Testament, had been born. For him, it took the literal hand of God to make the conversion.

Then, look at C. S. Lewis, who was an atheist after WWI, and went back to college to learn how to PROVE that all religion, and Christianity in particular, was a bunch of hocus pocus willful thinking. Instead, by what he found (he was at least honest), he became a Christian, a catholic, and one of if not THE best writers of Christian apologetics.

How many more COULD be saved if we simply were in the battle? Not one of us here knows the answer to that, and too often, we don't even try to find out!

Political correctness, rather than the love of our Lord, has entered WAY too far into much of our thinking and our interpretations of the Bible. It's really easy to agree with what we WANT to do. It's hard to do what we don't want to do. But Christ never promised us we could munch on the green grass of the pleasures of this world, without a struggle also involved. We have to comply with what the Lord tried so diligently to teach us, and he did NOT promise us we'd always be able to have our way, and justify it by "interpreting" the Bible to suit our own wills. We're supposed to try to WIN souls. Not just let whichever will drift to us! And winning souls ain't easy, guys! And it's not even always pleasant. I know. I've seen it when I was working with criminals. It's like pulling teeth sometimes, and they fight you tooth and nail. But just as Christ said, persistence and a confident air CAN eventually get through to them. What they do at that point may not be what we expect, but once the mark is made, it's there and can't and won't generally go away.

If you've never brought anyone to Christ who was antagonistic towards it, you've really been just waiting for the tide of the day to drift whatever it will towards you, haven't you? Is that what we were charged to do as followers of Christ? I don't think so, but each person has to answer that question for themselves. It's not given to us to answer it for anyone else.

Political correctness, with its urging toward "group think," denies our very individuality, that was instituted by God himself, wasn't it? If God made us so varied, should there not be a purpose in that? I have a notion that nothing has so weakened Christians as Political Correctness today. It invites us to "see" things as we WANT to "see" them, whether in fact, that's what it really means or not. Think about it. Is there one among us who has NOT been influenced by PC? If there is, I salute you, and bow to your superior will! But I have yet to see a single person I can remember, who has been totally devoid of PC. And nothing weakens and waters down our faith like something that diminishes OUR efforts. PC does that, and makes us turn away from opportunities that arise that we simply don't WANT to deal with. It makes us put OUR wills before God's, and there's not a person here who can possibly support that, is there?

The amazing thing about atheists, is that IF they convert, they convert and behave like real Christians are supposed to. Those of us who came to belief much easier in our lives, tend to take it more lightly, and put forth the minimum effort necessary to make us think well of ourselves. My reading of my Bible doesn't indicate that this is quite what our Lord had in mind for us. I don't think he intended for us to go around like blithering idiots, pounding our Bibles and spouting forth verses like a coin-operated machine. I think He intended us to look whoever we meet in the eye, when the situation calls for it, and as Freightman said, "Timothy to 2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine."

It's SO easy for us to throw Bible verses at each other in support of any particular view we may have, but that's quarreling, not genuinely debating, as we were admonished to do when we were instructed to "study to show thyself approved." I still maintain, and will until someone shows me different, that we Christians all too often suit ourselves rather than our Lord's will. How could things be the way they are today if we hadn't done that?

So I'll let the issue lay with this, and anyone who wants to post further is welcome to. I'll read it, but can't promise I'll be swayed by it just because someone posts a verse and interprets it in such a way as to "prove" their point. We're supposed to read the Bible for UNDERSTANDING, not to use as swords to duel amongst ourselves with! We have our wills, given us by God himself, and the Lord has His will. At every point in our lives, we must choose which we shall serve. Sometimes we err. It's just what we seem to do.

We have prayed for a revival of real faith in this country in our thread on prayers for the nation. If we want a revival, shouldn't it begin with us ourselves? If there's any jot or tittle that we need to attend to, shouldn't we do that first, and thus prepare or "gird" ourselves for the battle that is raging all around us? How can we fight if we're unarmed? And how can we become armed except by increasing our knowledge of what the Bible really MEANS, and how can interpreting its words to suit OUR purposes help us in that battle?

The battle around us is already raging. We can either enter the fray for the sake of our Redeemer, or we can sit pat on our own belief, and "let them eat cake." I think we're intended to get in the battle. But that's my decision, and each one here must make their own decision for themselves. I just hope enough of us decide to enter the battle to make enough of a difference, that the nation might be saved from what looks to be our future now. But that's not something that I or anyone else can decide. That's something we each must answer. And like learning to fight with our fists, there's some training involved, and only with experience in fighting do we get better at it. And I just hope we've not waited too long now to begin our fighting for our Lord and our faith.

The Lord promised that if we who call ourselves by His name, would repent, and turn away from our own wills, and follow His, He would heal our land and restore our country. Thus, the fate of our entire nation is in the hands of we believers. I pray we handle it better than we've BEEN handling it! Look around and see what what we've BEEN doing has wrought! I think it's TIME to change our tactics, and likely as not, way PAST time we changed our approach. It seems obvious enough to me, but .... as always, that's an individual decision for each of us, and I think it's a great test of our real faith in making that decision.

The mild, mousy, avioding approach is what has resulted in what we currently have in this country now. Do you think that's pleasing to God? If not, then isn't that proof enough that WE need to make some changes? Your decision entirely. I've made mine.

[rl69]

I'm not talking about political correctness. I'm not saying water down the word. What I am saying is arguing with the lost is futile. Bug slug is a perfect example.arguing with him just drives a wedge between us and someone like Tim.who believes in something he just not sure what it is.

BW you asked "do we let the lost dominate" isn't that what Christ did as he was beaten,spit on, and nailed to the cross? All he said was "father forgive them". And in doing nothing more then showing love he brought one more home.

[claude]

throw a few verses around... or quote the living God.

I catch your spirit, and I don't much care for your pompous pontificating, but at least I tell so to your face and don't subtly "hint around" about it. In my eyes, you come off as an over vociferous hypocrite, others may feel differently, they may enjoy 1500 word long posts that show zero documentation and rely on "this is what I believe so you should too", I don't.

Enjoy your day sir, I respect your right to be a braying ***, respect mine to offer excerpts from The Living God of whom we speak.

claude

[Boaz]

throw a few verses around... or quote the living God.

I catch your spirit, and I don't much care for your pompous pontificating, but at least I tell so to your face and don't subtly "hint around" about it. In my eyes, you come off as an over vociferous hypocrite, others may feel differently, they may enjoy 1500 word long posts that show zero documentation and rely on "this is what I believe so you should too", I don't.

Enjoy your day sir, I respect your right to be a braying ***, respect mine to offer excerpts from The Living God of whom we speak.

claude

And you are teaching how to witness ? I think you derailed a couple of posts back brother. You made some good points but...
Please rethink this .

[Boaz]

I haven't contributed much to this thread . Not intentionally just curious as to comment and possible methodology that could be more effective than my own .
I witness constantly , it's a habit . I deal with the public and have the opportunity to talk to many people . Most of my witnessing is done in a normal conversational manner . Simply asking (after talking a bit) what church they attend . response is wide open after that . Some readily want to talk about their church and we swap telling of the works and things that our church is trying to do , we have in common as far as being Christians . These are the great witnessing conversations you hope for , they are beneficial to both of you . Inspiration and like mind of glorifying our Lord .

Unfortunately all witnessing is not that easy . Two Christians witnessing to each other is a dream come true , an amazing no loss glory to our Lord . Generally we require confirmation and association of fellow Christians to provide the momentum to propel us to the next level . We need each other , as his word tells and encourages us . Correct me if I'm wrong .

.................................. Having to think/work at it
When you get a lukewarm response , a non committal/iffy reply to any kind of question of pertaining to belief in GOD what then ? I use gentle conversation and personal witnessing in a true sense , no hard pressure . Just trying to stimulate thought and perhaps remembrance of the things they miss in their lives of now compared to the time they actively worshiped . There are many backsliders now . Popular society has taken hold and encouraged it . Many have been wooed away by the social media , family , trendy current materialistic moral values , paranoia , etc . I just try and encourage remembrance of a better time , better life with GOD in it . You hope you have planted seed that will grow .

Self professed atheists . Tough nut to crack . If they have openly and venomously declared themselves part of the anti Christ it's a different situation . They are possessed by Satan . No need to rationalize the why or reason . Hate will rule their mind and you are hated when you state you are a believer . Sanity and rational thought leaves them . They will attack you .
You still have the obligation to tell of or explain the consequences of their choice . They will be forewarned , they can still find GOD but it is their choice . I will refer to the Russian Roulette topic in the pit . I tried to fulfill my obligation , some will not agree but I'm good with it .

Witnessing is rewarding and hard at times but it is required .

[Blackwater]

I'm not talking about political correctness. I'm not saying water down the word. What I am saying is arguing with the lost is futile. Bug slug is a perfect example.arguing with him just drives a wedge between us and someone like Tim.who believes in something he just not sure what it is.

BW you asked "do we let the lost dominate" isn't that what Christ did as he was beaten,spit on, and nailed to the cross? All he said was "father forgive them". And in doing nothing more then showing love he brought one more home.

I actually understand, RL. I just see what that approach has wrought, and I realize that we have the upper hand in facts, logic and any other element on which people can base their beliefs. Christianity is a huge jigsaw puzzle and all the pieces fit very precisely. There really aren't any "contracictions" in it. Only failures to understand the distinctions that make it appear so. Appearances are not the same as reality, and for too long, I think, we Christians have taken the easy way out too please ourselves, and have justified it with Bible verses interpreted so as to allow us to do as we desire rather than as the Lord tried to tell us to. After all, is anything more common than people fooling themselves so they can continue doing what they really want to, rather than doing the more difficult things that MIGHT (no guarantees) make a difference to perhaps many, at least over time?

When we disengage with non-believers, they have the floor by themselves, and they can't help but spread THEIR influence in that situation. So, logically, are we not doing our own wills instead of the Lord's? What is lost in arguing in a very spirited and insistent matter when we have the Truth on our side? Are people everywhere not impressed by real courage in faith? Are they not disappointed when people of faith simply walk away and abandon the "good fight?"

Like I said, there's some leeway here for those who simply don't feel as I do, and God made warriors and he made farmers. Each has their place in the Grand Scheme of things, I think. How could it not be so, when He made us all so varied, one from another?

And we're all at differing stages of our "study to show thyself approved." Thus, it's inevitable that we should vary in what we do with it as well. We spend WAY too much time arguing among ourselves about the things that are ultimately indecipherable to any of us with certainty. Much of our belief and faith is based, ultimately, in our separate interpretations of the Word. And our experiences vary so widely in this world that there's really no way we could ever see eye to eye on every point in the Bible. But yet, we so often cast aspersions at one anohter as in post 28.

There's an old joke about Buddah contemplating his navel. Is that not an apt description of us when we set ourselves and our interpretations up as the ultimate view? Is it not rather un-humble, to say the least, when we do that? A good argument is good for us. Quarrels not so much. Quarrels make us look bad to others who are looking on, and who might be touched if we did something far more potentially productive.

There's no way to win if we're not in the battle, is there? That's all I've ever really thought was really important - that we Christians win the battle. If we don't, evil will flourish, and we'll have allowed it to grow, even if we have salvatention within us, ourselves. How is this not plain to more of us? I honestly don't understand, unless it's our tendency toward "ideological momentum," which is nothing more than settling in with a comfortable level of understanding, and ceasing to really diligently seek further and deeper meanings within the scriptures, and more instruction within them.

I have for decades seen and heard people I know to be Christians, say and do things that were convenient to them, rather than what we all know and recognize to be our duty and responsibility as believers. Has anyone not noticed this? We've been promised that if we'd repent from our (usually self-serving) ways, and correct our paths, God will bless our land and restore it to what it was meant to be. Thus, how could it be any other way, than that it's our own short-comings that have led us to the place in the world where we find ourselves now?

I'm no prophet, nor even an immitation of one. I'm just a simple country boy who's long been honest enough to recognize my own faults and errors and shortcomings. That's really all it takes for us to recorrect ourselves and, at least potentially, "heal our land." This wasn't a recommendation by our Lord. It was a PROMISE. Are we now to take it lightly because it interferes with what we want to think about ourselves? That again, is something each of us has to answer for our OWN selves, and as usual, the answers will vary, I know. But my ideas and beliefs and convictions are mine, and they've been hard won, and unless and until someone can show me an error in it, what could or should I do but continue with what I believe to be the right? What would you think if I told you you were wrong for trying to fight the battles you choose to fight?

The thing about Christ's rules are they apply to all of us equally. No special favors here or there. And He gave us all unique talents and experiences to learn from and with. Thus, it pains me to hear folks who think I ought to just sit quietly and conduct myself in a more PC sort of way. That'll never make sense to me. I've been way too quiet for way too long, and it's time, I think, that we all should find our voice, and use it more and more definitively. That means we'll be taking the risk of erring some time. But how are we to learn if we sit afraid of erring???? Therefore, it seems our tendency to sit complacently, enjoying our own salvation, while others languish and grow and propagate, is simply not what Christ would want us to do. And I may be less than good at it, but so what? At least I'm in the fight. Those who shake the dust and go away aren't. And that, I believe, is a large part of the reason that evil has flourished as it has in our country and our time and our world. We simply haven't done our due diligence.

And I know some will resent this being said, but what does a believer do when he's challenged, but give his reasons, and invite any who can to challenge them, and show a better way. I simply can't see that it's a better way to sit silently as the world, literally, "goes to hell." If you can, you have different vision than mine, which is entirely possible. Have we lost the true courage of our convictions? Or have we simply laid it down in preference to just "going along to get along?" If the latter, when did Christ admonish us to do so? If you can show me that, I'll concede, and gladly so, because it's not a whole lot of fun countering the non-believers and their lies and half-truths and cynicism. Has cynicism crept into many of our own lives? How could it not, at least at times?

I've long said that I thought humility is the chief characteristic of a Christian, but that "mousiness" is NOT the same as humility. If anyone can counter that, other than by simply declaring their own opinions and analysis, and do it with scriptures, in any clear sort of way, as I said, I'll gladly lay down this "crusade" of sorts. All I've ever done is said what I honestly think and believe. I'm open to anyone who can to show me the error of my ways, but as with non-believers, all anyone seems to do is just declare their opinions, and walk away. How is that serving the Lord, when I'm as open as anyone can be to being shown to be wrong. Point it out to me. That's all I ask. And as in post 28, do it with something of substance, and not just an expression of displeasure in hearing what I have to say. That's as honest and truthful as I know how to be. If that makes me a braying a**, then so be it. I'm not afraid of being wrong. I know I'll correct myself if needs be. Many who call themselves by our Savior's name like to express and opinion and then walk away. If that's not a willful act based in our own psyches, what could be? And if we don't do better than we've been doing, are we not lost already, as a nation? And if the USA falls, where will Christianity be then? What other nation is devoutly Christian? Who would replace us? Answer = NOBODY!

Fellas, we're in this fight whether we want to be or not, and it's for all the marbles now! Conduct yourselves as you see fit. Unless someone can point out to me a real error, and not just the fact that they don't like what I say or disagree with my analysis or interpretation, then why would I or should I do anything different?

The ball's in your court. If you think I'm wrong, show me.

[Boaz]

I actually agree with you rl69 . Jesus Christ was our living example and you advocate that example and live it . I agree . But extreme examples of possession require a different tact . I know you do your best ...period . We all are called , follow your conviction . Take into consideration the call of others but ultimately we follow what GOD puts in your heart . I wish witnessing was an easy cut and dried procedure but it isn't . Jesus himself cast out demons , unfortunately we lack his power . You do the best you can . You are living up to his word , I thank you for that .

[rl69]

As always I thank you for your encouragement.you truly lift my spirit with your posts.
as you say we must follow our hart.we also must keep our harts open to his word to test if it is convicting us.

This post was derected at no one. I posted it just to give us a reminder as to how the lord has derected us to deal with the lost. If your hart leads you deferantly carry on we all have deferent skill and gifts wich means God uses us deferantly

[Boaz]

Thank you for the reminder .

[Blackwater]

This post probably should more rightfully have been made in the pit, and for my part in it, being a sort of "lone dissenter," I herewith apologize. It has never been my intention to bring dissension to the Chapel. It's far too valuable to all of us. I am considering making a post in the pit about what we Christians might be doing that we may need to address better and more fully in order to actually do what we've been charged with doing. If anybody cares to follow me there, that's fine, and if not, that's fine too.

Self-criticism is something that always causes dissent, and there's nothing any of us can do to stop that. It's just our nature to not want to criticize our own selves, though Christ encouraged us to constantly re-evaluate what we do. With our tendency to serve our own needs, and look around for reasons or excuses for doing that, I think it was critical good advice for all of us, and each of us as individuals. After all, it was my own self-criticism that caused me to awaken things within me that I'd long been suppressing, for the very same reasons and excuses we Christians usually and habitually choose to explain them with.

After facing my own mortality rather abruptly and unexpectedly, it's totally rational to do this. And I found myself lacking in some areas that I was ashamed of. I had not the courage of my convictions in the way that I felt I should have. I recognized that if Christ loves even the worst of sinners, then I'd fallen FAR short by assuming they were unredeemable, and proved it from past experiences.

Nobody here or anywhere else "knows" who is redeemable and who isn't. I've many times been surprised to the point of being pretty shocked at who responds to the Word, and who doesn't, and in what it took to reach them. It's not all pat and cut-and-dried as we like to suppose. So, I just struck out, with much doubt about my own abilities and knowledge, and decided to at least give it my best shot to see what I could do, and where my limits really were. We often like to limit ourselves to our comfort zones. In so doing, however, we abandon much that COULD be accomplished if we simply thrust ourselves into the job of trying to make an impression on those who are VERY difficult to make an impression on.

The Word of God is WAY more powerful than we often give it credit for being, and it CAN reach far more people than we often prefer to assume it can. It's as though we had an elephant rifle and confine it to being used as we would a .22 RF! The power of God is MUCH more powerful than any of us realize, I think. I know it's not just me who has made an impression.

I also knew from the start that anyone who departs from the herd would be panned and called everything but a child of God. I could not, in good conscience, allow that to enter into my decision. After all, it's not for our own agrandizement and benefit that we were charged as we have been charged. It's for Christ's, and Christ's alone, and if we're not willing to sustain the slings and arrows of our own kind, in doing what we feel deeply compelled to do, then are we not serving our own wills instead of Christ's?

Going it alone is tough, but if we really have the love of Christ in our hearts, we're never alone, even if no other humans, including fellow believers, refuse to join us. It has been heartening, though, to see many Christians contributing more and more in the pit, and they are the key that I was hoping against hope that would make a difference in the pit. As has been noted, one man resumed going to church after 40+ years of not attending. I cannot take credit for it, but expect others' influence and words there had a lot more to do with it. No man, in my view, EVER "saves" another. Only the truth and Christ can do that, and each person has to accept it or turn away from it.

Many read the stuff that's posted in the pit who might be saved, and some may well be in a state of flux, looking for SOMETHING to believe in in this crazy, mixed up world we live in today. You guys are all needed there. It won't be fun or easy or pleasurable at times. It'll be challenging,a nd at times frustrating, but are we to turn away from it, and serve our own wills, rather than diving in and casting whatever pearls we have so that whosoever might, might take them up, and grow them in their hearts, and thus, maybe be saved? Look at what Christ suffered for us! Are we now to shrink away from a simple debate for his sake? God forbid it!

It might suit our own purposes and desires to "shake the dust off" whenever we're challenged, but if we can't sustain being challenged, doesn't that indicate that we've got a lot left to do to get to where we CAN reach people with the simple Truths that God has given us to spread? Have we become so complacent and self-satisfied that we are no longer willing to confront evil wherever we find it, and give it our best effort to cast it out and overcome it? Again, I refer back to that old truism, "All that's necessary for evil to overcome good is for good people to sit and do nothing."

It's for each of us to decide the answers to these inherent questions that come with our belief. And not everyone is given to spread the word in the same way. As I noted above, we're a diverse set of people, each with individual talents and traits that CAN contribute to our overall effectiveness. Some are good at citing scriptures. Some are good at simple reasoning that often gets through when Bible verses are simply batted away as a matter of course, like a trained seal balancing a ball on its nose. Others are good at incising into the emotions. I learned a long time ago in sales, that nothing good happens unless and until you can motivate people's emotions. The intellect can be appealed to 'till the cows come home, but unless and until you can spur the emotions, and make people WANT what you have to offer, you're just spinning your wheels and really getting nowhere.

We humans are strange critters, and do NOT respond to logic nearly as much as we like to think we do. As the old song says, "The wise man can reason away," and we do that a LOT! We generally decide what we WANT to do, and THEN look around for "reasons" with which we can justify ourselves and OUR wants. Being Christian does not un-do this within us. It tends to make it more subtle and stealthy, but it's far from gone from within us. Becoming Christian does NOT convert us into something that's not fully human. It just makes us redeemed in spite of our human tendencies! This is a fact that's long been recognized, but seldom dealt with because it's not pleasurable to us. But it's still essential if we're to be the KIND of Christian we're supposed to be, and that we CAN be if we're just a little more humble, and open to the Truth instead of what our own wills usually leads us to.

So with that, I'd like to close this thread, at least on my part in it, and anyone who wishes is welcome to add their own thoughts after this. I've learned from everyone here, and plan to continue to do so, so long as our Lord gives me the ability to do so. And I thank God for each of you, even the detractors here. Where would any of us be without our detractors to keep us humble, and more aware of how we're perceived by others, particularly fellow believers? I value the detractors as much or more than I do those who agree with me. It's from them that I can glean what I might need to improve, so really, they're some of my very best friends.

I dropped most of my own grandiosity quite a ways back, though none of us is entirely 100% free from it. I think God gave us a healthy self-interest so we could and would survive in this world, but we so often take it WAY past that. That's when we err, and if anyone here has never done that, my hat's off to you and I bow to your perfection. I've never seen anyone like that, save One, though, but I keep looking.

I know some tremendously great Christians, but they're special, and not that great in number. Some of those don't much like it when I break from the herd and put forth an idea that differs from traditional Baptist theology, but theology, unless it can be backed up with good interpretation of the scriptures, is very unconvincing for me. I've asked questions that I really wanted an answer to, and got theology thrown at me, and when I questioned why it was interpreted that way, I was told to just believe, and not ask questions! But asking questions is part of "studying to show thyself approved," and if there IS no logical answer to the questions I've had, then it seems obvious that I'd uncovered a "weak spot" in theology that needed to be addressed. It never shook my faith, but it did make it less pleasurable than it's supposed to be. So I began seeking REAL answers myself, and it took many years for some of them to be answered, and they'll never ALL be answered, but I have enough answers to really enjoy my faith MUCH more than I ever could have had I not found these answers. Is it not rational that the more we know and realize, the better we can and will enjoy our faith?

Some seem to carry their faith around as though it were a burden! That simply cannot be what Christ intended for us, can it? I love my faith even more, the more I've learned about it, and the more questions I've found answers to about it. Not one of us gets all the answers. I doubt our mortal brains could hold it all! But we CAN learn enough to really, truly enjoy our faith SO much more than many of us tend to do. It's taken me a lifetime, practically, to find some of the answers I've found, but it was SO much WORTH every wretching and frustrating moment of the search! I cannot now imagine NOT having kept the search up for so long.

It's kind'a funny, but it's always the most hard-earned things that we value and cherish the most, and understanding our faith is one of those things that, if we want to, we can limp along with, but if we really give it our all, we CAN learn SO much more, and therewith, become SO much more satisfied with and grateful for our very real faith.

Christianity has been receiving all manner of assaults from every angle possible for a very long time now. I just think we need to re-arm ourselves with more than the tools and "weapons" we've traditionally used, if we're to win the battle that now rages all about us. Am I doing it just right? Probably not, but if I'm not, then I need good instruction to show me a better way. At least I'm in the battle, and NO battle can be won without fighting it. I think we see clear evidence of this in the way our gov't is "fighting" the battle "against terrorism" today, don't we? Are we to fight the battle for our faith in such an insincere manner? That's the question that I think we all face today. But whosoever will, let them take up the arms available to them, and join me in the fight, and let those who have not the heart for it sit and watch, and make whatever comments they will.

Those in the fight will receive a great blessing, but it'll come at a sometimes great price, just as it usually has throughout our history. God never promised us the easy way out. We may take it for ourselves, but it was not something He ever promised us. It's just what WE want.

[Pine Baron]

"God made warriors and he made farmers"... BW you have exactly nailed it. I would add though, we are not only warriors but also farmers and vice versa, as whatever the case may warrant. I have advocated gentle persuasion, compassion and patience. This of course is MY way, as I feel guided by MY convictions. YMMV.
Go in peace.

[Preacher Jim]

This thread is good you all are saying basically the same thing.
I. We need to be better witnesses
2. We all have a different style of sharing
3. The Holy Spirit better be in control of the situation
4. It don't matter where you worship as long as you have a personal relationship with Jesus.
5. We needy to quit writing and get out and reach the lost.
Just my summery of all this lengthy discourse
Like Boaz I have not had much to say just reading

[Boaz]

Good summation Jim , agreed . We all know what to do , just need to get it done .