Round flat for huntiing

[white eagle]

I have a Lee 210 gr RF mold for my 44 special
the combo is so accurate I was considering using that boolit
for hunting but wasn't sure if I would be wasting my time
with it or not
anyone use this design for hunting? [smilie=b:

[Cowboy_Dan]

Did you mean the 200 RF or maybe the 210 SWC? Either one looks like it has enough meplat to be an effective hunting boolit.

[DougGuy]

Those are great boolits, BUT hunting with .44 Special, at standard velocities, is questionable on the ethics side of the board. Why would you subject a game animal to the anemic .44 Special loading when there are SO MANY better choices for taking game? .44 Special isn't even a good manstopper let alone a cartridge I would want to shoot game with. You might have seen a PD issuing the .44 Special as a duty gun, in 1932!

Same boolit loaded to 1,000 ~ 1,100 fps from a Flattop Blackhawk or Vaquero? Different story all together.

Edit: OP your question was about the boolit. There is NOTHING wrong with the boolit. Personally I would NOT go in the woods with the same boolit, loaded to 735 ft/sec and expect to hunt humanely with it. You did not specify whether you are hunting with a handgun or a carbine but standard pressure handgun loads in .44 Special? No way. Yes it will harvest game. No I will not use it loaded to standard pressures for this caliber. This is about one notch up the ladder from .38 Special and I would not consider hunting with this an ethical decision.

I repeat: Same boolit loaded to 1,000 ~ 1,100 fps from a Flattop Blackhawk or Vaquero? Different story all together.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Seems like it would be ever bit as good as the original .44-40 round, which was deemed adequate for a very long time. Still works today.

[white eagle]

Those are great boolits, BUT hunting with .44 Special, at standard velocities, is questionable on the ethics side of the board. Why would you subject a game animal to the anemic .44 Special loading when there are SO MANY better choices for taking game? .44 Special isn't even a good manstopper let alone a cartridge I would want to shoot game with. You might have seen a PD issuing the .44 Special as a duty gun, in 1932!

Same boolit loaded to 1,000 ~ 1,100 fps from a Flattop Blackhawk or Vaquero? Different story all together.

a lot of game has fallen to the 44 special and I doubt that
not ever being a police issue has less to do with hunting and the
capabilities of the cartridge than your opinion of it
how many have issued the 22 rimfire for their carry
seems to do pretty good for hunting though

[rodwha]

Quite frankly a ball from a .50 cal muzzleloader has an equivalent energy figure as a common .44 Spl bullet with much less mass/sectional density and gives complete passthroughs (broadside) out past 100 yds.

I'm at a loss for why the .44 Spl couldn't be considered a viable weapon as it's not too different from the .45 ACP ballisticly and no one would ever begin to sell others that it's woefully worthless.

[nagantguy]

The bullet your speaking of put in the vitals of deer sized game at resonable ranges =venison in the freezer!

[DougGuy]

I'm at a loss for why the .44 Spl couldn't be considered a viable weapon as it's not too different from the .45 ACP ballisticly and no one would ever begin to sell others that it's woefully worthless.

The state of Virginia considers the .44 Special inadequate for deer. They very thoughtfully set a 350ft/lbs as a minimum energy requiirement on handgun hunting. The 200gr .44 Special loaded to standard velocities and pressures falls short of this.

I did not say it was worthless, I said there are much better choices for hunting, and that in standard loading for the caliber, choosing to hunt with this anemic round is basically not an ethical decision.

[white eagle]

glad to see there are more forward thinking areas of the country
where they let hunters choose there own style and weapon in which
to hunt with
what next can't use anything but a compound bow for bow hunting deer

[runfiverun]

the 44 special is equal to the 45 acp with a slight bump up in velocity.

come to Idaho and hunt we have an any weapons season.
wanna sneak up on it while it's asleep and bonk it with a rock?
legal.
AR with 100 round drum?
legal.
sit in a tree with a knife between your teeth and drop on it's back?
legal.
probably not very effective, but legal.

[BigMagShooter]

that bullet will work just fine for hunting, stop fretting and go to it!

[Thumbcocker]

It should be possible to push that boolit to 950-1000 fps with modest pressures with some propellents. I am giving serious consideration to using. A 250 or 265 grain boolit at 950 - 1000 I .44 Special for deer. A great and under appreciated cartridge.

You didn't mention what you are planning to hunt.

[rodwha]

Some of the standard loadings produce 400 ft/lbs.

I'd about agree with their assessment that under 350 ft/lbs is marginal. 400 might do well enough, but like you, I'd prefer to see something closer to 500 ft/lbs.

[runfiverun]

I haul one of my 44 specials around when hunting deer [shrug]
if I have the opportunity to use it, I have no problem pulling it out.
the 429241 on top of 7.2 grs of unique is pretty hard to stop out to 40-50 yds.

[smokeater]

White Eagle,
According to one of my reloading books, one can push a 200 rfn to over 1100fps and anywhere from 1025 to 1040fps with a 225 swc-gc cast bullet and stay within the pressure of a 44 spec (data is from The Complete Reloading Manual for the 44 Special. Special. I use a 44spec for hunting our Alabama deer but have not gotten one into MY comfort zone of 40 yds yet. I don't use the 210gr bullet but the 429421 atop a load of Unique or Power Pistol and I don't feel undergunned in the least. Like any firearm, shot placement is more critical than horsepower (that's just my take) and from what you say you already have the accuracy part down pat. Just take your time and put it thru the heart/lung area and you should be eating fried tenderloin for supper. The good people on this forum will give you honest advice gathered from real field experience. Good Luck and Good Hunting

[white eagle]

memory of the velocity of my 250 gr.Keith type boolit is just shy of
1000 fps like 950-975 or close use the same charge weight and powder
under the Lee RF Just never crono'd that load sure is accurate though
Yep I be hunting Wisconsin Whitetail on my land from an elevated stand/house

[Outpost75]

I have found that the .44-40 with blackpowder loads effective on deer from either rifle or revolver, at realistic woods ranges. We are talking about 900 fps from 5-1/2" revolver or 1200 fps from a 20" carbine, using a soft lead, flatnosed bullet with meplat 0.6 of the bullet diameter. I would consider pure lead bullets in full charge. .44-40 loads more effective than a .30-30 within 50 yards.

This performance is easily obtained with suitable loads in a strong,modern .44 Special.

I think the Virginia 350 foot-pound standard is marginal, and should be considered a floor limit. A skilled hunter who gets close, has a knowledge of animal anatomy and shoots accurately can bring home the venison with such a load. Indeed, my father did during tbe Depression.

But in my own experience I feel more confident with kinetic energy not less than four times body weight of the game hunted. So 400 ft.-lbs. is more realistic for deer, unless they are small.

[HABCAN]

'Tis said the .44 Spl. will do anything the old 1873 vintage .44-40 will.....and I never heard anyone say the .44-40 wouldn't kill deer. It's classic boolit is a 200 gr. RF. (DUH!)

[44man]

I can't find a listing for a 210 RF. There is a 200 and 310 gr. I know the 310 with my .44 mag at a little over 1300 fps, best deer stopper ever. It will not shoot slower but I don't know the twist on the special. It should be 1 in 20" so a heavy boolit will not do well unless shot faster then a special can do.
Now the 200 will work and a softer nose or boolit will sure do the job as long as you get penetration.
Many shoot the mag at snail speeds to kill deer. Hit right, kill right but I still believe in energy placed over a hole any day myself.
Hundreds of deer with a RB in a .45 flinter has done it every time. I never recovered a dead soft RB either.

[DougGuy]

memory of the velocity of my 250 gr.Keith type boolit is just shy of
1000 fps like 950-975 or close use the same charge weight and powder
under the Lee RF

You could have included this in your original post. Good luck with it, the RF boolits are ALL I hunt with. HP not needed nor recommended.

Edit: I have a .45 Schofield cylinder that I reamed from a .45 ACP for my medium framed Vaquero. Will be working up loads for this caliber, it is pretty much a .44 Special with a .45 boolit. I could even interchange load data with the .44 Special for most loads. For hunting, I have some 240ish gr RF style boolits with gas checks that I intend to push at the 23,000psi limit of this gun, I am thinking it would hit 1100 fps and still be within the .45 ACP+P pressure the gun is rated for. Gas checks aren't needed but I was given these boolits by a member and they won't sit on a shelf to be forgotten.

What gun are you planning on using?

[white eagle]

I will be using a blackhawk flattop with a 4 5/8"barrel
didn't include the above info because I wanted info on the
rf design itself not velocity, a bit of concern over the size of the meplat on
the Lee RF

[Outpost75]

I will be using a blackhawk flattop with a 4 5/8"barrel
didn't include the above info because I wanted info on the rf design itself not velocity, a bit of concern over the size of the meplat on the Lee RF

Meplat on the Lee is adequate.

[44man]

I will be using a blackhawk flattop with a 4 5/8"barrel
didn't include the above info because I wanted info on the
rf design itself not velocity, a bit of concern over the size of the meplat on
the Lee RF
The meplat itself does not do the killing. A RN or ball has killed forever. It is what the boolit or ball does when going through. You adjust it. If you think a WFN kills faster, I have bad news, it is the alloy for the velocity. Exactly the same as using a "J" word wrong for the game hunted.

[DougGuy]

I will be using a blackhawk flattop with a 4 5/8"barrel
didn't include the above info because I wanted info on the
rf design itself not velocity, a bit of concern over the size of the meplat on
the Lee RF

Are you thinking the meplat is too small? I don't have dimensional data on it but by the photos it looks smaller than the meplat on the 430-310-RF. The 310 I have here measures .340"

[44man]

My best deer killer in the .44 is a WLN and the Lee 310 equals it. It is how you shoot it. How you cast and load.

[white eagle]

yes I see my typo it is the Lee 200 gr.RF
my concern was I thought it may be a touch small
I use this mainly plinking and range work hadn't really given
to much thought to using it for hunting till now that is

[DougGuy]

Sadly, I have to report that if you google 44 caliber flat nose, you will see that nearly all of the RF/WFN designs in the weight range for the .44 Special, seem to have come from the shadow of the 44-40 which has that round nose/smaller meplat boolit profile made for a levergun. I could not find any with the wider meplat unless they were on up in the 300+gr weight range.

There is the 429352 and it's variables, if you could get one to group well you would certainly have a hammer to hunt with. Not many people were successful in getting these to shoot, because the front band was too small. Maybe a Mihec has an improved front profile over an Ideal mold I dunno.

Also, there is the question of barrel twist. The .45 caliber barrels are 1:16 and .44 magnum twist rate is 1:20 so I am thinking Ruger in all their cost cutting wisdom, wouldn't bother with changing the twist rate for the flattop. But, you never know, I think the Lipsey's runs were specific in cylinder throat sizes, they run much better than production guns, so they might have specified a faster twist as well.

If you push the RF as you spoke of earlier I doubt a deer would notice the difference in meplat or twist rate..

There was a thread some months back about the same flattop you have, and it was speculated that since the .45 caliber flattop was rated to .45 ACP+P pressures of 23,000psi, that the .44 flattop *should* be good to at least that much and possibly even safe at 25,000psi since it had slightly thicker cylinder walls as opposed to the .45 caliber guns.

That said, if you did find a few samples of the 429352, you have enough gun to drive it to stability if velocity is what it needs to be stable. You would be beyond standard .44 Special pressures, but probably very doable in the Flattop.

[jlchucker]

Seems like it would be ever bit as good as the original .44-40 round, which was deemed adequate for a very long time. Still works today.

I agree. Although I wouldn't use my 44 special revolver for hunting deer, it's got nothing to do with it being 44 special, and everything to do with me being habitually a user of lever action rifles in 30-30, 35 Remington, and 45-70. I'm not an expert with a handgun, and admit it. I have, and use several, but trust my abilities with a levergun much better. Now, if someone made a 44 special levergun, I'd no doubt hunt with it.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

doug I wondered how you knew what load he was using, white eagle, like most say hit it in the right spot at a reasonable distance, that'll do 'er just fine, though if it was me, I might bump it up to 1,050 or so, but I don't know what is accurate in your gun. if that is its sweet spot, so be it! best of luck to you, and wish me luck on my continuing quest for a north east Oklahoma hog!...The OKkidd aka Travis

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Wow. I can't believe this is still lingering. The original .44-40 round was something like a 210 RFN (of whatever meplat) at like 1300 fps from a rifle. Maybe 900 - 1000 from a revolver. It worked. Still does. Has anyone on this thread lost a single deer from a factory .44-40? How about a .45 Colt RN (almost no meplat)? Large and slow. It works. Those with real world experience in this arena, please post your results.

[Fenring]

Not deer, but shot a few pigs with a hardcast 205gr RNFP 'cowboy' type boolit as an experiment. Rifle speeds of 1800fps or better (estimate based on the load I was using).

No probs if the heart a large shoulder bone was hit so's to send frags into the chest cavity, but those hit too far back ran off like they were hit with a .223 FMJ load.

No shocking power and no expansion of course with this hard boolit. I can't see how a slow load with a softer boolit would be any better really.

Any bullet will kill an animal on the spot or close to it if it's put through the brain or heart.

[5.7 MAN]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?306815-pistols-for-deer

check out this topic in this very forum, lots of deer taken with 44 special and similar loads.

[44man]

Not deer, but shot a few pigs with a hardcast 205gr RNFP 'cowboy' type boolit as an experiment. Rifle speeds of 1800fps or better (estimate based on the load I was using).

No probs if the heart a large shoulder bone was hit so's to send frags into the chest cavity, but those hit too far back ran off like they were hit with a .223 FMJ load.

No shocking power and no expansion of course with this hard boolit. I can't see how a slow load with a softer boolit would be any better really.

Any bullet will kill an animal on the spot or close to it if it's put through the brain or heart.
I had the same problems with hard but only if too fast or heavy, 45-70 and .500 JRH. Poked a hole.
By just casting a soft nose on the JRH, deer are on the ground before recoil is over. I made a mess out of a few with it.
My BFR 45-70 is going 1630 fps and I lost a few deer, found a few over 200 yards. Lungs pink with a small hole. I made a mold for a WFN a little heavier and it failed the same.
I will never hunt with it until I cast soft noses. The difference is so dramatic between a hard boolit and just half the nose softer.
I don't soften the whole boolit because I could never group soft so I keep the drive bands hard.
My best killers ever were RB's of pure from ML's. With around 250 kills with ML's, I never lost a deer. Never recovered a ball or Maxi.
I was cautious with the .500, did not go pure for the nose, used 3# of pure with 1# of WW metal. Only half the nose.
At 1800 fps I would not use a full soft. You sure will not need a meat grinder!

[BAGTIC]

What different states consider adequate for hunting has little to do with reality. It is based strictly on politics and who is supporting or opposing specific calibers. My former home state of California considered the .25 ACP adequate. The hunter is far more important than the cartridge.

[dougader]

The Keith 250 and 255 WFNPB from Cast Performance would be great for deer. I don't get all the quibbling over this.

[44man]

The Keith 250 and 255 WFNPB from Cast Performance would be great for deer. I don't get all the quibbling over this.
No doubt, I used a lot of their boolits, they are a little softer then what I cast. The .44 will work with any alloy you can shoot good, even rock hard.
A meplat is important but even a WLN or Keith has enough.
I will go out on a limb to say my idea, that the meplat slows the boolit as it passes through allowing better energy transfer or "dwell time."
Get a boolit too fast or too slow and some expansion is best.
A slow boolit still has tremendous penetration and most times MORE then a fast boolit. But it starts with less energy and just keeps trucking.
My .45 Colt has taken many deer at 1160 FPS with a 300 to 335 gr boolit but there is a very large difference in deer reaction. Some just jump and walk a ways, stand and bleed out. I shot those boolits through a 16" tree, cut a 1" grape vine in half and I could not find it in the ground.
The same kind and weights from my faster 45-70 are sad.