Lead Ingot Motherload mystery.

[mkj4him]

A good friend recently discovered that an old gunsmithing aquaintance of ours had passed away. The gentelmans son was selling all his reloading/gunsmithing equipment and accessories in an estate sale. My friend purchased the entire setup. Since he is working in Alaska right now, everything went into storage, all except for the supply of lead ingots. He asked me to relocate them to my house for storage until his job contract ends in another year. I would be allowed to use as much of the "lead?" as I could. Here is a picture of the lead at the older gentleman's residence before moving to my house.
171125
The BIG question is what the heck kind of alloy is it. I know the older gentleman shot high powered rifle with his lead cast bullets, so he used a lead/tin mix of some kind. I just don't know what amounts. Some of the lead is supposed to be pure lead, or at least pure WW. I just ordered a Lee hardness tester to help identify some of it I hope. I'm hoping some on here might help me identify what alloys I am dealing with. One thing that has me baffled is the ingot colors. They range from dark grey, as I would expect pure lead, or WW would be, to a shiny silver with hints of a yellow/gold color. Some are more yellow/gold than others. I weighed several samples that were approximately the same size and got significantly different weights, telling me there are definitely different alloys involved.
Here are some pics of the sample ingots. I wrote their weights in black on their sides.
171126
Both are about same size, but darker ingot weighs 15 oz while silver/gold ingot weighs 10 oz. Any ideas?
171128
Here's a good picture of several ingots in daylight showing some dark grey/silver and some silver/goldish yellow.
171127
None of the ingots had smoothly filled bottoms, if that matter. Some ingots were even cracked across bottom. A few were even broken in half.
171129
Some ingots had different markings stamped into them besides the SAECO mould mark. I'm guessing the "T" means some degree of TIN added. Any possibility if some of these ingots might be pure TIN? How would I tell?
171130
These darker ingots could be pure lead or WW's. You can see the one slimmer ingot has "PL" stamped on it. I would guess "Pure Lead," maybe? Again, how can I tell if it is Pure and not WW?

I used my Cramer and Lee moulds to cast several 458 bullets with a handfull of the shiny silver/gold/yellow ingots, quenched in water. At first I was getting very shiny, but unfilled out bullets. Then some where coming out filled out, but frosted and none had very sharp edges. Then I noticed that some were coming out frosted and having the yellow/gold tint to them. Since all these "colors" were coming from the same ingots, I am thinking I may have turned the heat up too much. I ordered an RCBS thermometer along with the Lee hardness tester. They should be here in a couple days.
171131
So...someone please chime in and help me determine what all these different color ingots might be, and what use I might put them to! Thanks for any help.

[montana_charlie]

Because the 'T' is so 'visible', and the ingots so silvery, I would not be surprised if they are tin.

Melt a small piece and see if it liquifies at a much lower temperature than lead.
If you can't measure temperature, place a piece of 'lead' and a piece of 'tin' in the same cold, empty, pot, then see which one melts first.

[RogerDat]

That gold tint is typical of pewter ingots. As is the high gloss finish. Or possibly some of the high tin printers lead. Which because of the antimony can cast differently in pure form.

171133

In the casting alloys lead is the heaviest ingredient. Thus your 5 oz. difference in weight for same size ingot indicates the one has a higher lead content. The other more of something else which is less dense than lead. The melt temperature will help but is most effective with alloys of only two metals or a single metal. Tin does drop the melt temp so melting at lower temp is an indicator.

Lead oxidizes and gets the black and grey coating, tin reduces that tendency. But then more or less moisture exposure can also make a difference, but in general more corrosion = more lead. Plain vs. WW's the difference in corrosion may not be all that striking, either one against pewter or linotype the difference will be more noticeable. Printers lead with high tin content stays shiny in garage, plain lead is black and chalky in a matter of weeks. 50/50 WW's and plain + tin is someplace in between.

You might try and sort some ingots by weight that appear to be same size. Then have a sample from each weight group pile tested with XRF gun. There are members that will do this for a pound of any lead per sample. As will some scrap yards for free. You should then by weight and appearance be able to sort the rest with a fair amount of accuracy. By appearance I mean the way the bottoms formed and shine, when combined with weight should allow you to end up with a fairly decent supply of sorted lead and alloy. Or at least sorted well enough for a government job.

To my eye much of that looks like very good alloy.

[RogerDat]

I would add something else that P looks like it is from a potter brand mold. Hard to see in my pictures but I have the same P from a potter clone I use for pewter, now the stuff stamped on yours in addition to the P from the mold indicates something the original caster wanted to note, at least enough to stamp it into the ingots.

[bangerjim]

Since they are cast by an individual, you have no idea what is in there.

Best thing is to sort by weigh/color and take a sample of each to a scrap yard and have an x-ray done to get the exace % contents. The only REAL way you will ever know for sure.

Too bad the old guy did not mark them like I do...with metal stamps! And have a key posted on my shop wall as to the letter coding. But I could care less when I am 6 feet under if my kids know what they are made of. They are not into casting or guns at all.

Good luck figuring out what those are!!!!!!!! You're gonna need it. Pictures do not really help in metallurgy identification.

banger

[runfiverun]

that gold color is for sure a sign of a high tin content.
if he was using lead and tin for rifle shooting [30-06 type rifles] I would guess at 1-10.
if it was more like scheutzen shooting I'd guess 20 or 30-1.
the gold ingots could just be mixed alloy that was poured at high temperature.

I'd give the P marked ones the drop test and listen for the TUD sound.

[mkj4him]

that gold color is for sure a sign of a high tin content.
if he was using lead and tin for rifle shooting [30-06 type rifles] I would guess at 1-10.
if it was more like scheutzen shooting I'd guess 20 or 30-1.
the gold ingots could just be mixed alloy that was poured at high temperature.

I'd give the P marked ones the drop test and listen for the TUD sound.

I have an idea, but could you please expound upon the "thud" test?

[RogerDat]

Second to last image in OP, there are what looks like two letters stamped in one end of the P ingot. Along the lines of what Banger has described. I just can't make out the letters. Could be PL except the L is facing wrong way. Or R and something. PL makes me think printers lead but the picture angle is wrong to really read those two stamped letters.

[mkj4him]

Second to last image in OP, there are what looks like two letters stamped in one end of the P ingot. Along the lines of what Banger has described. I just can't make out the letters. Could be PL except the L is facing wrong way. Or R and something. PL makes me think printers lead but the picture angle is wrong to really read those two stamped letters.

It is a PL but the L is turned. I was assuming it meant Pure Lead. So is Printers Lead different from Linotype?

[Drm50]

If the bottoms are different out of same ingot mold, it means mold was not totally filled. Totally filled on level surface ingots will be joined by thin flash. This probaly has more to do with weight
varience than the alloy.

[mkj4him]

Ok. I cast some with both "PL" and "Tin=Silver/Gold" alloy, using Lee C457-500-F mould.

Not sure if I got the temp right, but was able to get some bullets to compare.

"TIN?" alloy dropped bullets with average L=1.204", average Diameter = .461", average weight= 336 grains

The "PL" ingots dropped average L=1.203", diameter = .460", weight= 482.5 grains
So the PL is obviously heavier. Does this help with any of the guess work?

[bangerjim]

I still tell you........x-ray analysis......if you really MUST know. ONLY way to know. Sorry. There are those on here that will do the analysis for a price. All my scrap yards do it for free.

You will spend lots of time scratching and weighing and dropping and measuring and color analyzing and measuring melt temps....but you still will not know for sure. Just do the analysis.

banger

[mkj4him]

I still tell you........x-ray analysis......if you really MUST know. ONLY way to know. Sorry. There are those on here that will do the analysis for a price. All my scrap yards do it for free.

You will spend lots of time scratching and weighing and dropping and measuring and color analyzing and measuring melt temps....but you still will not know for sure. Just do the analysis.

banger

Thanks for your suggestion. I will look into it. Not sure where around here to take it for X-Ray, but I can ask around. No idea what or if they charge for the service. I'm inclined to just cast bullets, and test with Lee hardness tester to get within range needed. My only concern is if I ended up casting bullets made out of pure tin, or a higher than 1-10 ration of tin. I'm loading mainly for 458 socom, heavy bullets going subsonic. I'd prefer softer so as to get some expansion, if possible. All that tin is going to mess that up.

[scottfire1957]

Banger is correct. Everything else is a guess, some probably close, but still a guess.

[Cowboy_Dan]

If the boolits cast of the "PL" sample are well filled out, I would guess it more likely stands for "printer's lead" than "plain lead". Printer's lead, though, could refer to a range of alloys, so an xrf analysis is still warranted. Just call the local scrap yards and ask if they have an xrf gun and if they will analyze some lead samples for you.

[Frank46]

Saeco used to sell tin in the exact same ingots 1lb's as you have shown in your pics. Reason I say this as I found three in my goodie cabinet. Even after all these years they still have the silvery gold color. Frank

[mkj4him]

If the boolits cast of the "PL" sample are well filled out, I would guess it more likely stands for "printer's lead" than "plain lead". Printer's lead, though, could refer to a range of alloys, so an xrf analysis is still warranted. Just call the local scrap yards and ask if they have an xrf gun and if they will analyze some lead samples for you.

I've been calling around to the local scrap yards, and while they do have an xrf gun, they are, shall we say, less than enthusiastic to provide help.

The bullets I cast with both the "tin" ingots and the PL ingots both came out frosted. I tried lower and higher temps, but none came out shiny and crisp. Also, I looked up melting point of tin and lead. Tin is much lower, but what would be the melting point of a proper tin lead alloy (1-10) or say, WW's? I'm just trying to determine if I have alloy ingots with high tin content, or if they are pure tin.

[JimB..]

For simplicity you could assume that they are Tin, lead, or a mix of those ignoring other potential components. Weigh each one carefully. Determine the volume of each carefully (I'd do it by dropping them into a graduated cylinder and seeing how much the water rises). The resulting density will tell you the proportion of elements. If nothing else you can sort by density and then have samples tested.

[DerekP Houston]

this solution brought to you by redneck laziness

Mix it all up in one giant batch then send a sample ingot + 1 lb for payment to orisolo. Adjust from there! :D :D :D.

[OS OK]

I have an idea, but could you please expound upon the "thud" test?

Lead sounds like thump, drop it from waist high to concrete...lead= thump or thud
Tin or Antimonial lead= tink...has a higher pitch like...once you drop a few the sound will be distinctive.
Won't tell content other than one is harder than the other.

Drop them so they will hit on long narrow end, drop all of them the same way.

[John Boy]

Since you have many hardness tests to do, the Cabine Tree tester will be your fastest one to do tests ...
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=159279&CAT=3903

[runfiverun]

the TUD drop test would differentiate between plain lead and printers lead.

the real test would be to have it XRF checked.
it might cost you a pound of tin or a couple pounds of lead to get it done but it would surely let you know what you have.

most guys store their stuff separate.
lead over here, tin in that crate, mixed stuff piled up under the casting pot.
I keep lino-type and lead bricks together but it's easy to tell the difference between a 25 lb 2' long triangle and a 12X4X1 brick of lead.
the ingoted lead, mixed alloys, and other alloys are separated physically and have a note in the bucket.

[bruce381]

send a bar to BNE on this site he will run do X-ray for price of a ingot.
fast and good guy very helpful

[lightman]

Whatever you have, thats a good score! Just more reinforcement that all of us should consider a way to mark our ingots and have a legend close to them. I would be real tempted to sort the best I can, make a large batch of simular types and have them tested. There is a member on here that was testing samples for members for a pound of lead per sample.

[OS OK]

Whatever you have, thats a good score! Just more reinforcement that all of us should consider a way to mark our ingots and have a legend close to them. I would be real tempted to sort the best I can, make a large batch of simular types and have them tested. There is a member on here that was testing samples for members for a pound of lead per sample.
171266Harbor Freight has the letter sets cheap and you can put all the info on the ingot that represents the rest of them in that row/stack/area/however you put them away, one of the ingots has all the info you need to remember that batch.

[spfd1903]

Several years ago, I contacted a large metal recycling company in the city 20 miles from home. Their non-ferrous division sells 50/50 solder and 96/2/2 alloy, which I have purchased in the past. Talked to the non-ferrous manager about XRF testing. He suggested sending any samples (they only needed to be small 10-20 grain slivers) in the mail with a SASE envelope for return. He would not charge me as I was a buying customer. Have sent over twenty samples in and sometimes it may take a month, but he comes through. Recently bought a lot of ingots from a garage sale. The ingots either had an "L" or a "W" marked on them. They both rang when dropped, but rather than guess, I sent them in. The "W" were wheel weights, and the "L" was linotype. No unknowns.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Years ago when I started amassing piles of different types of lead I started seperating them in large auto parts trays. They are marked for linotype, monotype, wheel weight, and of course pure lead. I keep the tin/pewter in a seperate smaller tray and the isotope cores and smelted into ingots into yet another tray. I have each tray marked as to what is in it. As has been already said, when I`m breathing dirt others can figure out what type it was.Robert

[PBaholic]

Measure their hardness:

171302

[scottfire1957]

Measure their hardness:

171302"


Measuring the hardness tells you the hardness, not the alloy, if the alloy matters.

[Budzilla 19]

Mark your stuff legibly and then you will know for sure. Not going to help in your current situation, but when you DO find out, just mark them accordingly and no more guessing. (last time I suggested marking with metal stamps, on this forum, I got my macadamias roasted!! Was told that " if I couldn't remember 1,2,3, or A,B,C, then maybe reloading wasn't for me!!!!) HAHAHA!!! Good luck.

[DerekP Houston]

Mark your stuff legibly and then you will know for sure. Not going to help in your current situation, but when you DO find out, just mark them accordingly and no more guessing. (last time I suggested marking with metal stamps, on this forum, I got my macadamias roasted!! Was told that " if I couldn't remember 1,2,3, or A,B,C, then maybe reloading wasn't for me!!!!) HAHAHA!!! Good luck.

Ehhhhh they all go bang in a nice soft pistol round :D, worst case scenario for me is I'm spending more on the alloy than I need to. I've actually had better luck leaving them in the nice packaged USPS MFRB boxes and just writing what it is on the side. Takes up a bunch more room for sure, but it is like opening a present each time I need more as well.

It appears as one gains interest in this hobby, the associated "tools of the trade" seem to accumulate quickly and require more strict alloys. I am not quite there yet, so I keep it simple. When/if I start casting for 30 cal rifles I will probably start over like I did with my pistol work up. Purchase a foundry/known lead source and test with that, and see how far I can cut it with my scrap until it doesn't work for the purpose I need. I suppose like anything you can make this as complicated or as simple as you like.

[lightman]

I agree, the hardness does not tell you the alloy. But, the hardness and the melting temperature will get you close enough for what we do. While new, exact alloy is nice to cast with, we don't have to be that exact.

[PBaholic]

Measuring the hardness tells you the hardness, not the alloy, if the alloy matters.

The hardness tells you a lot.

BHN 5-6 = nearly pure lead
BHN 10-12 = Wheel weights
BHN 18-22 = Linotype
BHN 25-35 = Pewter or Tin
BHN 50 = Foundry lead

Since we are talking about casting boolits here, I don't really care what the alloy is exactly, as long as my hardness is correct.

I cast at BHN 10, and PC. I take all my alloys, and melt them into ingots. Then I measure their hardness at 1 hour and 24 hours, and mark them with a Sharpie. I then mix them to get my BHN 10, which I cast in 2.5 lb ingots, cause they fit in my Lee pot well. I use simple math here. 1 lb of BHN 6 and 1 lb of BHN 14 will make 2 lbs of BHN 10. (6 + 14 = 20 / 2 = 10)

1 lb of BHN 20 and 2 lb of BHN 6 works like this: 20 + 6 + 6 = 32 / 3 = ~ 10. That's pretty EZ.

[mkj4him]

Now that kind of math I like. My biggest question is whether my "gold" ingots are an alloy with a high Tin content, or actually pure Tin.

So once my hardness tester arrives, can I just shave a flat surface on the old ingots and test, or should I melt and cast a few bullets with it, shave a flat surface and test then? I currently don't have any ingot molds. I assume I should test after 1 hour and 24 hours? All air cooled I assume. No water quench.

[PBaholic]

Now that kind of math I like. My biggest question is whether my "gold" ingots are an alloy with a high Tin content, or actually pure Tin.

The gold ingots are pure tin or pewter.

I test for hardness right on top of the ingots. Yes, you will be more accurate if you cut it in half, and test it, but so what.....

I do the 1 hour, as I want to see some ballpark figures. 24 hours is usually only 1 or 2 higher. Yes air cooled. You will change the hardness if you cool it quickly. I used to water drop my boolits before I powder coated, and got an EZ 2-3 BHN harder.

[Comrade Mike]

If you can sample your ingots I can run XRF on them for you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[nagantguy]

send a bar to BNE on this site he will run do X-ray for price of a ingot.
fast and good guy very helpful

This is sound advice BNE has done great work for me, his price used to be a small amount of lead, so you won't be out any loot if that's still the case. Then you know.for.sure, and could separate and use appropriately!!! What a score, you won't have to.scrounge for a while!

[4719dave]

The pl could be plumbers lead..i had a bunch turned purple blue and looks like those ingots do .

[mkj4him]

I'm thinking getting the ingots sampled will be the best bet in the long run. I was thinking of sending several representative ingots in a small flat rate box. How much would you charge?

I'm a bit confused about the "gold" ingots. There are actually more of those than the darker "lead" ingots. Unless they are a very high Tin content? I know the original owner shot a lot of 30-06 competitions. Maybe he needed high Tin to get higher velocities? I know that would make the bullets much lighter.

[DerekP Houston]

I'm thinking getting the ingots sampled will be the best bet in the long run. I was thinking of sending several representative ingots in a small flat rate box. How much would you charge?

I'm a bit confused about the "gold" ingots. There are actually more of those than the darker "lead" ingots. Unless they are a very high Tin content? I know the original owner shot a lot of 30-06 competitions. Maybe he needed high Tin to get higher velocities? I know that would make the bullets much lighter.

Yes, especially if he was casting for rifle rounds those would be higher tin content. My "pure" tin was a nice goldish hue when I was casting it out to smaller parts.

[mkj4him]

Was your "pure" tin actually pure tin? Or just a very high tin content alloy? What percentages did you use?

Other than cost, is there a negative to using pure tin to cast bullets? I know it's lighter.

[runfiverun]

umm yeah there is a down side.
tin will stick to your barrel.

I'd just contact one of the XRF guys here and send him a sample then you'll know what you have.
melting tin into boolits is silly when you can trade it for ww alloy at a pretty good exchange rate.

[mkj4him]

Lead Hardness tester just arrived. Getting ready to run tests.
Following instructions, but have seen where people don't wait the 60 seconds. How critical is the time?

[HangFireW8]

I'm thinking getting the ingots sampled will be the best bet in the long run. I was thinking of sending several representative ingots in a small flat rate box. How much would you charge?

I'm a bit confused about the "gold" ingots. There are actually more of those than the darker "lead" ingots. Unless they are a very high Tin content? I know the original owner shot a lot of 30-06 competitions. Maybe he needed high Tin to get higher velocities? I know that would make the bullets much lighter.

Maybe.

Or he may have been like me, who happens to find pewter and tin more easily then wheelweights.

[RogerDat]

Lot of people have used BNE for testing.
Use your hardness tester to sort, then chisel off a sample piece from each hardness grouping for testing.

The people who point out that having the right hardness and flow characteristics are the real goal are correct but since tin alloy is more expensive by a lot compared to an antimony alloy to get the same hardness it just makes sense to test so you can minimize costs.

[mkj4him]

So I spent some time testing several samples of the mystery ingots, some of my old WW ingots, and several bullets I've cast with all of the above. Here's what I found...please give me your opinions. (Flat spots filed on all surfaces, or tested on bullet tip flat)

"gold" alloy with T marking - BH 7.4
Lee C457-500F bullet cast with T alloy - BH 13.4 (I think I quenched this one in water)

"frosty" looking alloy with T marking - BH 11.4

"PL" marked dark alloy (pure lead?) - BH 5.0 (I think that makes it pure lead)
C457-500F bullet cast with PL - BH 9.2 (cast several days ago and air dried) why would BH be different from ingot?

My old WW ingots - BH 14.3 and another sample was 13 (??)
32 Mag bullet cast with same WW's - 14.3 (water quenched...couple years ago)

A Meister 32 cal bullet I have - BH 17.9
Another cast lead 458 bullet I purchased - BH 17.9

So what does all this look like?

[DerekP Houston]

So what does all this look like?

lead! sorry couldn't resist. Antimony hardens with age, i'm not sure if your other blends would be softer or harder being fresh cast vs however old the ingots are. I think the "7.4 BH" on the gold ingots would be an anomaly considering the BH after cast, but I haven't used the tester myself.

[RogerDat]

So I spent some time testing several samples of the mystery ingots, some of my old WW ingots, and several bullets I've cast with all of the above. Here's what I found...please give me your opinions. (Flat spots filed on all surfaces, or tested on bullet tip flat)

"gold" alloy with T marking - BH 7.4
Lee C457-500F bullet cast with T alloy - BH 13.4 (I think I quenched this one in water)

"frosty" looking alloy with T marking - BH 11.4

"PL" marked dark alloy (pure lead?) - BH 5.0 (I think that makes it pure lead)
C457-500F bullet cast with PL - BH 9.2 (cast several days ago and air dried) why would BH be different from ingot?

My old WW ingots - BH 14.3 and another sample was 13 (??)
32 Mag bullet cast with same WW's - 14.3 (water quenched...couple years ago)

A Meister 32 cal bullet I have - BH 17.9
Another cast lead 458 bullet I purchased - BH 17.9

So what does all this look like?

It means you can sort them by hardness and find out the alloy for a batch with the same hardness from an xrf test. Nothing else will give you a real answer. You might try taking 3 or 4 ingots from each "pile" of assorted hardness and melting them together and getting your test from that mixed sample. Have found an individual small ingot can have a patch that is different than the batch or a single ingot from the pot might be different by a percentage or two. Consider your own old WW's had a 14.3 and 13 hardness test.

Scrap lead just like whiskey will be more consistent if blended in larger batches. On the plus side those samples seem hard enough to use for the most part. Or a good source. Plain lead that will water quench harden? Hmmm will be educational to hear what folks think that might be. Maybe stick on WW's?

[osteodoc08]

I see a common theme with everyone recommending XRF. If you can't find someone local, send to one of our members here that does it. You're making this way more complicated, time consuming, and expensive than it needs to be. You have been given hundreds of years of collective experience. But you can do with it as you wish.

[mkj4him]

I see a common theme with everyone recommending XRF. If you can't find someone local, send to one of our members here that does it. You're making this way more complicated, time consuming, and expensive than it needs to be. You have been given hundreds of years of collective experience. But you can do with it as you wish.

I greatly appreciate all the wisdom shared. I am new to this alloy testing gig. Casting, in general, is new to me as well. Been hand loading for over 20 years, with both lead and Jacketed bullets. I will get the hang of it, but I tend to ask many questions in the process. Please forgive my ignorance. I will be boxing up a small flat rate box to send for XRF. That is the next step. But of course, I will cast some bullets and shoot them. For fun.

[osteodoc08]

Just retread my post and it could have come off rude, that was not my intention. I just wanted to impress upon you that we are recommending XRF for a reason.....to get a near absolute of your alloys instead of just guessing......and possibly wasting valuable resources.

[DerekP Houston]

I greatly appreciate all the wisdom shared. I am new to this alloy testing gig. Casting, in general, is new to me as well. Been hand loading for over 20 years, with both lead and Jacketed bullets. I will get the hang of it, but I tend to ask many questions in the process. Please forgive my ignorance. I will be boxing up a small flat rate box to send for XRF. That is the next step. But of course, I will cast some bullets and shoot them. For fun.

Heh, I would've already melted into large batches and started casting but Im notoriously lazy about record keeping. No harm in asking questions, some people get a bit irate repeating themselves. To me...I would've mixed up all the types you had except the "Pure lead" ones and made a huge batch of alloy for shooting.

I guess we never did ask what is your intended use for these? Your answer will let us know more about what you need, than my guessing based on what I do. If I start casting for rifles (when?) I'll be just as new and starting over again. Will probably repeat a number of questions if you hadn't been kind enough to post yours and share the wealth!

[mkj4him]

Heh, I would've already melted into large batches and started casting but Im notoriously lazy about record keeping. No harm in asking questions, some people get a bit irate repeating themselves. To me...I would've mixed up all the types you had except the "Pure lead" ones and made a huge batch of alloy for shooting.

I guess we never did ask what is your intended use for these? Your answer will let us know more about what you need, than my guessing based on what I do. If I start casting for rifles (when?) I'll be just as new and starting over again. Will probably repeat a number of questions if you hadn't been kind enough to post yours and share the wealth!


Current project is subsonic loads for my 458 socom. If I could figure out a way to cast bullets that would actually expand at those velocities, that would be great. Otherwise, I'm just trying to find a good allow that gives me the weight I'm looking for (as close to 500 gr as possible) and accurate, without leading...or tinning.
I also have moulds for 9mm, 45, 38/357 and 32. Loading for those would be desirable.
I might start casting bullets for my various rifles, like 6.5 Swiss, 7.5 Swiss, 30-06, exc...

[RogerDat]

wow, sort of covering all bases with those calibers and cartridges. If that 32 is an auto pistol NOE mold has some 312-75 molds that they just did a group buy on. Repeat of an older mold, supposed to be good for .32 auto, short enough to not compress case space while COAL will still fit in the magazine. Makes purty little baby bullets very well but I have not yet had a chance to try them out.

For the rifle you might want to do some reading of the threads on powder coating. You can get some electrostatic paint to stick to a bullet by shaking them in a #5 plastic bowl with black air soft bb's. Static charge + rolling around coats them then you bake. End up with a super hard and slippery coat on the bullet, done right you can pound the bullet flat and the paint won't come off. Coated will tolerate softer lead without leading too. Sort of like making your own jacketed.

[mkj4him]

wow, sort of covering all bases with those calibers and cartridges. If that 32 is an auto pistol NOE mold has some 312-75 molds that they just did a group buy on. Repeat of an older mold, supposed to be good for .32 auto, short enough to not compress case space while COAL will still fit in the magazine. Makes purty little baby bullets very well but I have not yet had a chance to try them out.

For the rifle you might want to do some reading of the threads on powder coating. You can get some electrostatic paint to stick to a bullet by shaking them in a #5 plastic bowl with black air soft bb's. Static charge + rolling around coats them then you bake. End up with a super hard and slippery coat on the bullet, done right you can pound the bullet flat and the paint won't come off. Coated will tolerate softer lead without leading too. Sort of like making your own jacketed.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll have to read up on the powder coats. Been seeing a lot of it in the forums lately. Just haven't taken the plunge yet.

It's not a 32 auto. It's a Russian 1885 Nagant revolver (7.62x38R). Funky little critter with an atrocious trigger pull, but what do you expect for $99? Actually, even with the terrible trigger pull, I find it shoots quite accurate. I have to modify my finger placement on the trigger to accommodate for the heavy pull. Anyway, I cast a 312 bullet (tumble lube style) semi wadcutter and size down to 311.

[PBaholic]

So I spent some time testing several samples of the mystery ingots, some of my old WW ingots, and several bullets I've cast with all of the above. Here's what I found...please give me your opinions. (Flat spots filed on all surfaces, or tested on bullet tip flat)

"gold" alloy with T marking - BH 7.4
Lee C457-500F bullet cast with T alloy - BH 13.4 (I think I quenched this one in water)

"PL" marked dark alloy (pure lead?) - BH 5.0 (I think that makes it pure lead)
C457-500F bullet cast with PL - BH 9.2 (cast several days ago and air dried) why would BH be different from ingot?

My old WW ingots - BH 14.3 and another sample was 13 (??)
32 Mag bullet cast with same WW's - 14.3 (water quenched...couple years ago)

So what does all this look like?

Water quenching doesn't do much to low BHN alloy. You can not get pure lead any harder with any heat treating. That is why wheel weights contain a little arsenic, so that they can be hardened cheaply. Any alloy with antimony will harden with heat treating. Make sure you are testing multiple times on the same piece, as hardness can vary depending on where you test. I have also had hardness change depending on where the ingot was in the pour. I haven't figured that one out yet, as I had 75 lbs of mixed lead, and I poured 2.5lb ingots. Some came out in the high 10's, and others came out 8.3. It was all the same batch, but I only have 2 molds, so it took me a while. I pissed me off to, as I only tested the last few, and they were the 8.3's, so I re melted the whole thing with some linotype added, and came out way to hard....

I'm a little surprised about the "gold" alloy. I would not have thought it would be that low.

COWW's should be in the 10-12 range, before water dropping. Simple water dropping out of the mold will get you 1-2 BHN.

Aging also changes the BHN. I test mine at 1 hour, and 24 hours to get a good sense of where they are. Usually the BHN increases 2-3 BHN between 1 hour and 24 hours.

Welcome the the strange world of lead hardness!

[HangFireW8]

An alloy with even a little tin can yield gold color ingots if overheated.

[scottfire1957]

"I'm a little surprised about the "gold" alloy. I would not have thought it would be that low"

And THIS is why it is all simply a guess. As banger and others have noted, analysis is the answer, and the ONLY way to know what your alloy is. We are looking at a pic of something, nothing else. Could be metal, could be plastic. We can't tell. we can only guess



Edit: I trust you know it is metal. I am saying that that is all we can tell you. It's metal, because you know it is.