Pedersoli Berdan Sharps

[Bent Ramrod]

I was at the Gun Show this weekend and fell for a Civil War-style Sharps breech loader, a .54 caliber Pedersoli. I got it all apart for cleaning and lubrication except for the plate at the front of the breech block. According to the schematic on the Pedersoli site, this is removed with a wrench that resembles a musket nipple wrench, applied to a cone in a round hole in the breech block.

On the other hand, the N-SSA forums say there were several different attempts to get a gas seal on the breech block, another being a cylindrical tube that either rattles around loose in the block, or is permanently attached to the block, or sticks in the block from the fouling until it is nearly impossible to remove.

Taylor's seems to only offer the removal tool for the cylindrical gas check and I can't find the T-handled removal wrench on VTI's or DGW's web site. Does anyone know if this is the right tool for my rifle, and where I can get one? Can you order direct from Pedersoli?

Thanks in advance.

[Hiwall55]

You might try Dixie gun works

[rmark]

I think you are referring to the movable chamber some makers used in percussion sharps reproductions. it was supposed to slide back against the breech block when the gun is fired. I think some of the original early sharps used this and it only works so-so. I think the movable chamber is captive, that is it can't be removed unless the barrel is, and tends to stick in place as residue builds up.

The most common way to tighten up the breech block to barrel fit is to insert a rubber o-ring inside the breech block, behind the plate that meets the barrel.

Check on the North South Skirmish Assoc. forum, I think there are some threads about this.

[Bent Ramrod]

As mentioned, I did check the Dixie site and apparently they only offer the 1874 models any more.

Another look at Pedersoli's exploded drawing shows two breech block plates, both facing away from the viewer, for lesser clarity :|. One is a single part, 47a, "Gas Seal Plate Washer (Old Version)" and the other is the three piece version, Parts 81, 82 and 83, the "O Ring For The New System," the "Touch Hole For The Removable System" and the "Seal Plate For The New Removable System," respectively.

Unless you look closely, the Plate (or System) on mine looks like an integral part of the breechblock. The parting line is barely visible, and extends halfway down the block, where the plate rests on a step or mortise in the block face. It doesn't loosen when tapped with a plastic mallet, so I figured it was the New System. The gun has been fired, but there was no trouble getting the nipple or the cleaning screw out of the breechblock, so I wouldn't think the plate was frozen or rusted into place.

I've been reading through the Small Arms section of the N-SSA site. There is certainly plenty of trouble with these Sharps blocks, and several cures, but I haven't yet been able to distinguish which plate or seal system is the one I have, or what the removal tool looks like.

[varsity07840]

Go on Pedersoli's website. Click on news and events at the top. Scroll down and click on magazine.
Click on archive at upper right. Scroll down to issue 5 with the Sharps on the cover. The article will
show the newest breech block system with a description.

[.22-10-45]

Are there small cut-outs on each side of plate? On my Shilo Sharps 1863 military, a screwdriver blade..I use a brass pry bar can be inserted and plate pried off breechblock.

[Bent Ramrod]

Thanks, varsity07840! It appears that I have the older version, not the "new solution" in the magazine. The wrench is obviously one of those two prong spanners used to remove firing pin plates in shotguns. There are indications that my plate is not fully removable, but should be loose, and may loosen up after a couple shots.

No cutouts on the side of this one, .22-10-45. I'll try to get some Kroil into the joint and see if anything loosens up.

My arrangement looks like the Conant gas check illustrated in Winston Smith's Sharps Rifle book.

[varsity07840]

Thanks, varsity07840! It appears that I have the older version, not the "new solution" in the magazine. The wrench is obviously one of those two prong spanners used to remove firing pin plates in shotguns. There are indications that my plate is not fully removable, but should be loose, and may loosen up after a couple shots.

No cutouts on the side of this one, .22-10-45. I'll try to get some Kroil into the joint and see if anything loosens up.

My arrangement looks like the Conant gas check illustrated in Winston Smith's Sharps Rifle book.
No problem. If your Sharps leaks and binds the action, there are several different approaches to fix the problem. Check out the forum on www.n-ssa.net. Lots of percussion Sharps info there. Also check out Charlie Hahn's site at www.charliestubes.com. He does excellent breech block mods and supplies cardboard cartridge tubes for easy, reliable reloads. He did my Pedersoli Sporter. Call him. He'll set you straight.

[Bent Ramrod]

Thanks, Varsity. I'm through the N-SSA Small Arms section and going through the Tips and Techniques one now. Charlie Hahn's name comes up frequently, and I'll keep him in mind if the un gives too much trouble. I don't think I'll be firing at the rate their "skirmishers" do, so the problem of seizing up might not be as severe for me.

[Bent Ramrod]

So, just to bring "Closure" to this thread:

I went through the N-SSA forum and the links that some of the membership posted to other sites frequented by Civil War re-enactors and skirmishers. The 1863 section of the Shiloh forum was also very informative. If anybody has a "capping breech-loader" of any vintage and manufacturer, there's a ton of good info out there.

It appear that my rifle is Pedersoli's first design, which garnered many complaints for its tendency to freeze up in the heat of "battle." The breech block would quickly become immobile after as few as five or ten shots. Or gas and flame would burst out the top and bottom of the breech block mortise, burning the operator's hands and scorching his uniform.

There were several work-arounds for this condition. The main one was prying the Pedersoli version of the Conant/Lawrence gas check out of the breech block, grinding clearance in back and putting a washer or O-ring behind it. This allowed slick operation for 40 shots or so, until the O-ring cooked, so extra O-rings needed to be stored in the rifle's patchbox, for a quick replacement.

Pedersoli devised a putative improvement on the original Conant/Lawrence system, a stainless steel floating chamber with a slight gap ahead of it in the barrel. This would act as a reverse Conant gas check, the pressure in the barrel pushing the floating chamber backwards against the breech while the breech pressure drove the Conant gas check forward. This latter device was judged an invention of the Devil, quickly gumming up and becoming useless, and impossible to keep clean because it slid out of the barrel only as far as the back of the block mortise, unless the barrel was taken off. If stuck, it could be loosened and partially withdrawn with a specialized tool, which was kind of expensive.

The recommended Final Solution to this epic disaster was to send the whole thing to Charlie Hahn for a complete rebuild of block and chamber. People who had this done said they could shoot all day without sticking the block or burning their hands.

Pedersoli's effort to fix this problem was a variant on the O-ring fix, with three different O-rings (or three steel washers) behind a three-piece gas check, which could be dismounted for cleaning or changing out washers with a spanner wrench. The chamber sleeve was shortened and fitted with an O-ring so it could be taken out for cleaning with a special tool. This was also denounced as no good, and the user was urged to send the mess to Charlie Hahn to fix.

I'd gotten my Berdan Sharps at a pretty decent price and figured I'd try to deal with the shooting problems as well as the other "issues" it had before giving up on it. It didn't seem to me that Pedersoli's engineering on the gas seal was any worse than that on original Sharps guns, and, by and large, they reportedly worked well for their users.

Somebody had bent the rear setting trigger, and, to get to that, I had to take the gun apart. It had been fired, and a generous layer of black powder soot covered the underside of the barrel under the forend. Wiping this off showed the bluing was fine with nary a trace of rust. The lever spring, like all Italian Sharps, was way too stiff, but leaving the screw slightly loose fixed that. The block and lever came out much more easily than any of my cartridge guns, and the nipple and clean out screws came out without trouble. Everything visible had been well cleaned, and the bore, bluing and case hardening looked good. Following the directions of mtnwinds on the Shiloh site, some judicious tapping on a sharp wood chisel carefully positioned against the almost invisible joint freed the breechblock gas check, which is a "press fit" in the block, and normally only slides forward a few thousandths under the pressure of firing. It pushed back tightly into position, with the gap in the metal again hardly visible.

As in many of the early Italian guns, the barrel was not quite up to the witness marks. I took the receiver off to clean the threads and check for burrs, and, by tapping a wooden dowel into the chamber and twisting, got the floating chamber out with no effort. I cleaned, dried and anointed all the metal parts with Frog Lube, and left them out in the 110-degree sun for a couple hours, as per direction. Then I put the chamber back in, tightened the receiver to the witness mark, observed that the ladder sight still listed slightly, decided to live with it, put the rifle back together and made up some paper cartridges.

I'd gotten the Shiloh Products cartridge rolling kit, with former and nitrated paper, at a Gun Show eons back, and a "ringtail" boolit mould at another Show some time later. (Obviously, now I "needed" the rifle. :mrgreen:) I loaded ten with 52 gr GOEX FFg and ten with 58 gr Elephant FFFg, the same volume. Five of each were painted with "New-Skin" to see if a sort of Duplex loading could be made. Making those twenty cartridges took as long as the siege of Vicksburg, but they were plenty Cool.

Today it was off to the range. I took some Navy Arms (RWS) musket caps along on the advice of Southron, Sr. on the N-SSA site, who says that CCI caps won't fire reliably around the requisite corners. I popped a couple to clear the channel, dropped in a cartridge and had at it. Five shots with each powder charge at 50 and 100 yards.

The gun worked slick as...Frog Lube; no problem opening and closing the block. With both powder charges, the 50-yard groups were one or two holes separate from one big hole; at 100 it was 4-1/2 to 6-1/2 inches. I think some of the verticals I saw at 100 were a function of the nonexistent rear sight notch, and the varying amount of powder that was wasted when the block snipped off the cartridge end. I "cheated" only to the extent of ten puffs in the blow tube between shots and a couple wet and one dry patches between five-shot groups. There were two misfires in the last string which went off when the next cap was fired, and a slight hang-fire on a lot of the shots, but nothing that a flintlock shooter doesn't experience worse. All the paper cartridges burned up completely and there was no leading in the barrel. The barrel looked cleaner after a shot than my cartridge guns, but of course 58 grains isn't a lot of powder.

Like a big cap-and-ball revolver, it's kind of a mess to clean up, but the floating chamber loosened up quickly and everything wiped down OK. I'm pretty impressed with that Frog Lube; black powder fouling buildup has to be one of the worst "challenges" to any lubricant, and it seemed to work well in this application. I don't have any tie with the company, except for the free frog they gave me when I bought a bottle of the stuff to try out. I'll have to try 40 shots next time, and I need to get the cartridge lengths set so I can close the block without snipping the ends off.

[montana_charlie]

Good show.

[Bent Ramrod]

Loaded up some more paper cartridges and went out to get the windage tapped in at 100 yards. Tapping the sight back and forth was pretty straightforward, but retightening the spring screw would move the sight slightly, in the opposite direction of the last movement. This was as close as I could get off the bench, with that little blip and blob on the battle sight. It is definitely a sight for 18-year-old eyes.

173702

That is 6 shots in 3-3/8" vertical by 3-3/4" horizontal. (The sixth shot, to the right, was just the rifle telling me it doesn't love me yet.) I got another group of five in 5-3/4" vertical by 2-3/4" horizontal. The Rapine ringtail boolit wrapped in nitrated paper with 52 gr. GOEX FFg. Mutton tallow/beeswax for lube.

Total cartridges fired was 25 this time. Had a few misfires at first. I had shortened the paper cartridges and crimped them so they could fit in the chamber, so as to get a standardized powder charge with no wastage when the block snips off the end of the cartridge. The percussion caps would not fire the charges unless I poked holes in the back with a pencil after stuffing them in there. The humidity is up here in the Monsoon Season; there was a high incidence of "paper fouling," i.e., unburned cartridge paper, which might be because of moisture absorption by the paper. Last time, the cartridges burned completely.

Had to take out the block a couple times in the course of firing and wipe it down; opening the lever became a little sticky but not too difficult and I got 15 or so shots before the first time I noticed anything different. The Conant gas check was obviously working, as was the floating chamber in the barrel, as they both came loose on cleaning. The Conant gas check protruded slightly from the block because of the fouling, but judicious tapping of a knife blade into the crack got it out for cleaning and after that it went back to its normal near-invisible joint. The gas check needs to go forward only a few thousandths and the floating chamber back a few thousandths to effect the seal. It loses less gas than a cap and ball revolver; a little leaks out but is directed upwards and the shooter does not notice it; at least I didn't.

These rifles are not for everyone, for sure, but they are a lot of fun if you don't mind a certain amount of fiddling, and a lot of cleaning at the end. And some of the fiddling should go away with practice and familiarity.

[dromia]

I am awaiting delivery of a new one early next week, interested to see how Pedersoli's current iteration of the gas seal works.

My ringtail moulds from Moose moulds should be imminent so hopefully I should be making smoke with it soon.

[Bent Ramrod]

I'll be interested in reading your impressions and results, Dromia. The rifle is terminally Cool. I got the impression from reading about the travails of some users on the N-SSA site that the people who had the most trouble were the ones who fired blank charges in re-enactments. They develop all the smoke and fouling without the requisite pressure to make the gas system work.

Pedersoli also offers a special, non-traditional brass case for the percussion Sharps they sell, but I would think that would engender more problems than it solves. I'll stick with the paper cartridges, myself. When I run out of the paper in the kit I have, I'll try the hair curler papers that are recommended by many of the successful shooters. They allegedly work, nitrated or not, and the fire of the cap burns through the crimp in the back so no hole punching is necessary.

I wonder if one of the derelict shotshell presses, in a smaller gauge, might be modified to make a more professional looking crimp in the back of the paper cartridge. A 20-gauge might be too big, though, and a .410 would, I think, be too small.

[dromia]

I find rolling the cartridges easy enough just using a plastic tube as a former, I use the 100% cotton rag paper I use for paper patching and it works just fine, with water glass for a glue. I used to have an original carbine and they functioned well in that however the bore was problematic with pitting so I sold it on to a collector who wasn't interested in firing it. I have felt bereft ever since and have been awaiting a shipment form Pedersoli with one in and after a couple of years one has finally landed on these shores and the wholesaler is shipping it out to me on Monday.

[Bent Ramrod]

I feel your longing, Dromia. I have waited for that slow boat from Brescia myself for over a year, since VTI didn't have a replacement stirrup for the lock on my Pedersoli caplock Kentucky rifle. They keep sending in orders until there is a sea container full, and then it ships, sooner or later. The saving grace is that VTI generally orders multiples of any part ordered, in case some other hapless individual is in the same boat as the original requester. If they're sold out, it's another year or so wait.

Is that tube you use as a roller a standard diameter? I found the 0.5" aluminum rod in my kit was workable, but too small. I turned a dowel down to a size such that the cartridge is as fat as the bullet, and slides into the chamber without a lot of clearance. The powder charge has plenty of room without needing extra length that the block snips off anyway. Does the tube allow you to fold the paper inside to start the crimp, or doesn't the fact that it's hollow affect the finished cartridge?

I use something called Aleene's Clear Gel Tacky Glue to seal the edges. It comes in a pen, so it's easy to "write" a bead down the edge of the paper. Seems to burn up completely, and dries pretty quickly.

[Hickok]

I have a Pedersoli Sharps Berdan too. After shooting the rifle "as is", stock from the box, the blow by was too much to put up with. I sent the rifle to Charlie Hahn and let him do his modifications. Charlie does outstanding work. He redid my breech block, chamber, using his "o-ring" fix.

The rifle now has no blow by, as is a pleasure to shoot.

I would also recommend Charlie's card board tubes for making your cartridges. They cost little, and work great for making rounds. I use a ring tail mold from Moose Molds, which perfectly fits Charlie's tubes. These cardboard tubes are also more durable than just nitrated paper rounds, and they can take more rough handling and abuse.

My Berdan will group 3 shots into 2-2.5 inches @ 100 yards consistently from a bench rest when I do my part. But, the sights are very "fine" and hard to see for my 61 year old eyes.

I have taken deer with this Sharps, and it works well.

[Hickok]

Just a heads up on the Pedersoli brass cases, they suck!

Fowling makes them want to stick in the chamber.

[Bent Ramrod]

Hickok,

I kind of figured they would be the case. I'm already having all the fun I can stand with the Gallagher brass cases. When they stick in the barrel, they can be pulled out. When they stick in the breech, shooting is usually over for the day. Couldn't imagine the Sharps brass cases would be much easier to extract, especially if they rode back into the gas check cavity slightly and jammed the breechblock.

I may try those Hahn tubes somewhere along the line; most of the users say they improve accuracy. For now, I think I'll leave the rifle itself as-is. I did order a spare mainspring from VTI; my rifle's hammer fall seems a little "soft," compared to my cartridge guns.

[Hickok]

My results with a Pedersoli .54 cal. Sharps Berdan. (I also have a Moose Mold for Sharps boolit, results are same as Rapine boolit)

Rapine Mold, 50/50 WW/pure lead, 475gr.
Hahn paper tube, Len's lube


60 gr. Goex 2f 969 fps.



60 gr. Goex 3f 1030 fps.


50 gr. Goex 2f 885 fps.



+5" high @ 50 Yards, Dead zero @ 100 yards.