Primer impact reqirements ?

[Naphtali]

All of my carry guns are 357 Magnum revolvers - one S&W "J" frame and two SP101s. My carry ammunition has been Remington HTR 38 Special +P 158-grain LSWCHP.

Reloading to replicate this ammunition in practice form, I intend to use TiteGroup.

I also intend to create HEAVY 357 Magnum 180-200 grain hard cast bullets with gas checks for my long-barreled SP101 using H110.

TiteGroup will ignite reliably with standard small pistol primers. H110 requires magnum small pistol primers.

Both SP101s need action jobs to smooth their workings and reduce double action "pulls." Emphasis will be to render the revolvers for best use of Remington HTR 38 Speical +P ammunition rather than 357 Magnum handloads.

Anticipating first-class gunsmithing that will have furnished reliable smooth functioning, will primer impact now be unreliable with magnum primers?

Will I be able to use magnum small pistol primers for all handloading - that is, will required primer impact for magnum primers require the SP101s (and possibly "J" frame) to need heavier double action "pulls" than were the revolvers using only the Remington ammunition?

[rancher1913]

not really following what info you need. I've been using regular small pistol primers with h110 and all the other powders listed for 357 mag and have never had a problem. I do use the magnum primers in our "carry" ammo just because.

[44man]

You walk with Angels that lost a wing. Primers need struck and most gunsmiths do not get it right. JUST ignition is not accuracy.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Wow! When you ask a question you ask a lot of them! First, you can find different loads in different manuals. I'm sure you can find some that recommend small pistol magnum primers for .357 magnum loads, but I've reloaded and shot them for about 40 years and have never found it necessary to use them. I usually use CCI brand, but regardless the brand have found regular small pistol primers up to the job. As for H-110, that is one that I've never loaded in .357, but I've shot a large number of .30 US Carbine loads over the years using H-110 and used standard small rifle primers. On occasion I've run out of the small rifle primers and have used small pistol primers with satisfactory results. So I'm not saying it ain't so..just doubtful about the necessity of using the magnum primers. Again, not saying "don't"--if that's what you want to do, do it, but if you're going to load at the top end of the scale the magnum primers can make a difference in pressure. As a retired gunsmith who did a lot of revolver action jobs I have to say that the part of your question that "anticipates first-class gunsmithing" would of necessity assume that hammer fall would be sufficient for your purposes. I mean, that's what first class gunsmithing is all about, giving you the performance that you desire, and it's really a matter of tuning the mainspring that powers the hammer fall to do what you want it to do. There is a balance between "smooth pull" and "heavy pull". If you want reliable ignition under all circumstances you may have to settle for a "heavy smooth pull." This latter condition is what I used to do for Law Enforcement Officers whom depended on their revolvers to perform every time. Somewhat less critical for target shooters who were more interested in smooth and could handload with the most sensitive primers. So there is a balance to be had there......if you're going to be reloading for defense you'll want your revolvers' actions smoothed, but not lightened very much. The last part of your question (last paragraph), if your un-tuned, as-issued, factory revolvers will reliably fire Remington factory ammo no adjustment should be required to fire handloads using magnum primers.

[Idz]

I believe the all-fire-energy is about the same within the groups of primers SPP,LPP,SRP,LRP and is about twice as much for the rifle primers as the pistol mainly because rifle primers use a thicker material for the cup.

[M-Tecs]

Federal primers tend to be the most sensitive if you are experiencing light primer hits from reduced spring pressure trigger jobs.

[GONRA]

GONRA sez for semiauto rifles, ALWAYS use CCI Military primers or Remington 7 1/2 to avoid SLAMFIRES!!!!!.

[Outpost75]

The non-toxic, lead free primers used in some range ammunition can cause misfire problems, because they are less sensitive than standard primers.

Back when DA revolvers were first-line service weapons bought by the feds and large police departments who bought tens of thousands, the striker indent of revolvers produced on contract orders was routinely measured, using a max. cartridge gage "holder" chambered to accept a .225"x400" size "C" annealed copper cylinder where the primer would ordinarily be. The striker indent was then measured using a surface plate and dial indicator, taking two strikes, one each end of the copper cylinder, one taken holding the gun muzzle up, then knocking the copper out, turning it around and striking its other face with the muzzle held down.

The minimum copper indent for a .38 Special is 0.010" using the government gage and size "C" copper cylinder. A striker indent of 0.009" was accepted as a "minor" category defect IF the gun would otherwise pass functioning and accuracy tests with the test ammo provided as government furnished material. Guns which produced "light strikes" were isolated for additional function tests and fired 100 rounds with the contract ammo specified.

Lacking the ability to this sort of testing, I would shoot not less than 100 rounds of the ammo you intend to carry.

If your gun runs 100 rounds of your carry ammo with no "drips, runs or errors," then you are OK. A new gun will smooth up with use. But if you get even ONE misfire, repeat the test, firing another 100 rounds. Then in the pooled 200 round sample the received product test standard was "accept on 1" misfire in 200 rounds , and to "reject on 2."

Guns having after market spring sets to lighten trigger pull, or which have bobbed hammers which reduce hammer energy, or DA-only conversions which reduce hammer throw may only produce only 0.008-0.009" on the copper, which causes problems. Minimum copper indent for .357 guns was 0.011", for 9mms, 0.012" - the indent being measured the SOLID ANNEALED COPPER CYLINDER, not on a fired primer. This method equates to striker ENERGY, not driven firing pin protrusion.

The gage holders are readily available and the drawings are in the public domain. Getting the coppers is the problem. The last time I bought any Olin was the only supplier to the firearms industry and government labs. They came packaged in boxes of 500, the minimum order was 1000, and they cost about $1 each in the year 2000!

A clever mechanic could make the coppers on an automatic screw machine from heavy gage pure copper wire, strike them in a cold header to form and square the ends and then gas anneal them, to then use them in the government gage. When you are building guns by the thousands and must subject a sample to government acceptance tests under Mil-Q-9858A, selecting random serial numbers in a quantity based on using a Mil-STD-414 sampling table for each shift's production, over the long run smacking coppers and measuring them in the lab is cheaper than shooting multiple pallet loads of ammo and the labor to train and supervise the testing needed to otherwise satisfy the government standards.

My Ruger Service Six and Colt OP have stock service springs in them and run the CCI primers as well as Federal 200 small rifle with no issues. Their copper indent on the government gage is 0.012". This is what you want in a carry gun.

THE GUN MUST GO BANG~!

Aftermarket springs which give you a light trigger pull and wimpy striker indent will get you killed!

[Drm50]

Speaking particularly on S&W revolvers I have had to replace a lot of main springs in K frames,
resulting from home gun smithing. I have got guns in that misfired due to light strikes. Also had
a guy bring in a 19, 6", telling me it was worst gun he ever shot. He put in aftermarket spring
kit. Gun stuck hard enough to detonate primers, but to light for uniform ignition. With stock S&W
main spring it shot fine. Guy was stupid and said he didn't trust it, now in my gun room, my
favorite 19 shooter, with stock spring. The tension screw can be wound out to where trigger pull
is like a dream, but that isn't the way to smooth up your trigger pull. Also have guys bringing in
ks that their buddy "thinned" for them on grinder. It will break in a very short time because load
on Spring has been changed, will snap at point right ahead of factory demensions.

[Scharfschuetze]

I routinely carry a 3" Model 60 in 357 Magnum.

I shoot a lot of mid level 357 magnum out of for plinking and practice and I've never found it to be finicky about primers. I normally use either the Remington 5 1/2 SP or the CCI 500 SP primers and I've never had a misfire in the 16 years that I've had the revolver.

For the 180s over H110 powder, the routine answer will be to use SP Magnum primers. I do this with Remington or CCI SP Magnum primers sparking Lil'Gun powder with fine results. No misfires in either a Model 28 Revolver or a Marlin rifle.

Outpost is spot on though with his advice to fire a bunch of your loads through your revolvers before trusting them for social work.

[runfiverun]

I'd be more concerned with using titegroup as a PLUS-P load in a 38 case than with the primer I was using.

[44man]

I have much experience with hammer springs from shooting IHMSA. Ruger springs will take a set after while. Accuracy would fall off big time so I bought springs by the dozen.
Then I went to Wolff over power variable springs of 26# in my SA's, factory runs about 22-23#.
First thing I do with a new gun is change the spring and do the trigger.
S&W's have come in that would not shoot good, I check the strain screw with no luck, then find someone ground it off. The spring MUST be tight against the frame. Found a lot of ground springs too.
DA must have a stronger pull because the hammer throw is shorter then SA.
Anyway to make a primer JUST ignite is not good enough.
SP primers are not very different between a mag and standard and I have interchanged them forever in the .38 and .357 so I would say to use what you have.
To help a S&W, change the rebound spring, tricky to cut one because the trigger might not reset. Then polish the surfaces and use a good lube. Leave the hammer spring alone!
On Ruger's and BFR's I get triggers to 19 oz with over power hammer springs but need to make sure your finger is not kicked or the transfer bar can drop so I make longer bars to stay on the firing pin. With mine the bar covers the whole pin at full cock, some factory bars only cover half.

[Naphtali]

Outpost75:
Many thanks for the information. Now I have "numbers" to measure rather than use the "by guess and by gosh" method.

Runfiverrun:
Your comment regarding TiteGroup interests me - that is, why would you have concern to use TiteGroup in 38 Special +P handloads?

[Sasquatch-1]

I have replaced the springs in my GP100. With the lighter springs I don't always get reliable primer ignition with CCI. I think, out of the NON RUSSIAN MADE primers CCI is the hardest cup material and therefore take a harder hammer hit to set off. This is just from personal experience.

As for magnum primers in handguns I only use them when I can't find standard and I shoot a lot of 296/110 powder in 44's where you have a lot more powder to ignite.

[farmersamm]

Thinking that a light trigger was the Holy Grail, I lightened the hammer spring on my GP-100. Got light strikes. And I didn't like the lighter trigger pull. I prefer a healthy single action pull so that I know when the gun is going to light off. I don't like it to be a surprise.

Smooth vs. Light.......After opening the thing up, I noticed a healthy burr on the hammer sear. Hit it with a jewlers file, and all was well with the world. Back to a factory weight spring, and HEAVEN. Trigger is now heavy, smooth, and predictable....crisp I guess you'd say. It also has discernible creep. There is considerable takeup before the sear breaks. This allows me to apply a nice slow increase in pressure until the hammer drops. I now know exactly when I'm sending the bullet downrange. This is a personal thing, not something I feel is applicable to other shooters. The "creep" is due to the heavier spring placing a good amount of pressure on the sear, it's not that the sear surface is too "long". The higher spring pressure gives a better feel to the action.

Off topic I guess, but...........

I hate the trigger on the Super Redhawk. Light, and goes off in the blink of an eye. No "feel". Problem is, I'm not sure if the thing came from the factory with a lighter hammer spring (the strike sounds weak, but never a misfire in about 500rds), or it just turned out this way when going down the line. I plan on getting a "standard" spring for it, just to see if they did lighten it when produced. If this is not satisfactory, I'm not able to locate an overpower spring anywhere I've looked. Maybe have been looking in the wrong places, but sure would appreciate a lead on stronger hammer springs for this gun.

Even further from the topic :smile: Wondering if this an age related thing. I'm not as steady as I used to be, and tend to wave the gun around a bit while aiming. Stiffer trigger allows me to apply pressure, with just that little extra needed pressure to fire, when the front sight passes the point of aim (ie. the gun moves a bit whilst aiming).

Back on topic................

Federal primers are the softest primers, and most reliable. Seat uniformly, and just all around the best. I've seen no discernible difference in the striker impact required to light off either std, or mag primers.

Magnum vs. Standard primers. Mag primers will result in about 30fps greater velocity in my .357 with the same powder charge. That's just my observation, not an axiom.

Powder. I'm a cheap ba@#*^%, and like HP-38 where I can get away with it. And to keep lead expenditure at a minimum, I like to run a 105gr SWC. I can push this combo to between 1400fps-1600fps with good results. Surprisingly accurate for the type of shooting I do. Thumbing thru my Lyman book, I do see H-110 listed for the .357, and all loads (including every other powder) are cooked up with mag primers.

I have no idea if any of this helped, or it's just rambling because it's raining just enough to mess up the welding I gotta do, but not enough to do the crop any good. Killing time I guess, hope it helps, at least it's for free.

[farmersamm]

Double action pull......

If your Ruger is like mine, it's timing is perfect. You can "clock" the cylinder just before you let go. You feel it. The heavier double action pull is a non issue when you learn to recognize the "clocking" feel.

Every once in a while, when I feel like Clint Eastwood (:mrgreen:), I'll do some double action work. Nothing serious......6" steel plates at 25'. Long as I use a nice stiff hold, ignore everything but the front sight, I can keep up a reasonable cadence till the cylinder is empty. And all hits. I put the heavy trigger pull in the back of my mind, and concentrate on keeping the front sight pasted on the target.

I read somewhere, in an old book written sometime in the 70's I believe, that the NYPD used to require DA-only revolvers as service weapons, and they had a required hard trigger pull. I dunno if this is true, but it makes sense. I think the logic was.....the increased effort allowed a millisecond for better judgement in a heated situation, which was felt would reduce unnecessary shootings. Been a while since I read that, and I'm not sure memory serves.

[44man]

When you need a "softer" primer you are on the edge and accuracy is only at 7 yards. Try that at 200 meters or 500 meters.

[Outpost75]

When you need a "softer" primer you are on the edge and accuracy is only at 7 yards. Try that at 200 meters or 500 meters.

Makes a big difference even at 50 yards. Back to back tests using different mainspring tension, backing off strain screw to produce 0.008 copper indent vs. 0.011 copper indent firing the same Bill Davis custom PPC revolver with a good lot of factory wadcutters made the difference between 5" and 2" vertical dispersion of a 24-shot group at 50 yards!

Did no good that these were excellent Remington Bridgeport, CT Targetmaster which should shoot 1-1/2" ten-shot groups from a Universal Receiver and industrial test barrel fired off concrete pedestal with return-to-battery rest, weak striker energy causes greater velocity variation!

BTW, copper indent of the Universal receiver whacking the "C" copper in the government holder was 0.020", same as the spec for an M4 carbine, thought you might be interested.

[John Boy]

Will I be able to use magnum small pistol primers for all handloading - that is, will required primer impact for magnum primers require the SP101s (and possibly "J" frame) to need heavier double action "pulls"
Where you found the idea that a "magnum" primer possibly would require a 'double pull' is far fetched and incorrect!
ANY primer, in order to crush the anvils has to be hit Hard and Fast. Therefore, reduce the main spring force past the required energy to hit the primer Hard & Fast - your going to have soft primer hits, then a need to increase the force of the main spring
Now a 'magnum' primer ... it has nothing to do with the force of the main spring. It relates to the brisance generated to ignite various powder. So use the correct primer tested and identified in the loading tables from the vendors

[dragon813gt]

I'd be more concerned with using titegroup as a PLUS-P load in a 38 case than with the primer I was using.

Thought I was the only one. I tuned out after reading that bit.

[bedbugbilly]

Can't really answer or add much as others who have played with "tuning" can answer your questions better.

All I can add is my experience with a S & W Combat Masterpiece that I have - circa 1950s. I only shoot cast/reloads and I usually use CCI or Winchester primers - have never had a problem EXCEPT with the Combat Masterpiece. I hadn't shot it much as I usually use my S & W M & P 5" revolver to practice DA shooting - I've always been a SA revolver shooter for the past 50 years. Last summer, I got the CM out as I wanted to get used to it. I was very much surprised that when I started my target practice - I was shooting in SA - I had at least a couple of rounds out of six that would not go off. OK . . what's going on? I ran a cylinder in DA and all went off - at least the first cylinder full. Next cylinder, I had one which didn't go off. The next I had two. Huh?

I stopped shooting it and that night took a look at it. I asked a couple of questions on the S & W forum and finally pulled the grips off the CM and my M & P and compared the main spring tension screws since they are both K frames. Sure enough, the previous owner of the CM had shortened the tension screw to smoot up the trigger, etc. As a result . . . misfires.

My point? I think you can "tune" and improve your revolver as far as trigger pull, etc. - but at what cost? I would rather have a stiffer trigger pull and know that each round is going to go bang - regardless of if it is a range gun or a carry piece. While I know many will disagree with me and they like to "tune it up" . . . personally, I am able to "learn" my pistol and get used to the trigger pull. Grittiness? Yes, that can be improved but as far as affecting the primer hit - I want it to fire each time and with no worry. At this point, I'm looking for a new tension screw for the CM and I'll live with the stiffer trigger pull. YMMV with your revolvers though.

[farmersamm]

can't really answer or add much as others who have played with "tuning" can answer your questions better.

All i can add is my experience with a s & w combat masterpiece that i have - circa 1950s. I only shoot cast/reloads and i usually use cci or winchester primers - have never had a problem except with the combat masterpiece. I hadn't shot it much as i usually use my s & w m & p 5" revolver to practice da shooting - i've always been a sa revolver shooter for the past 50 years. Last summer, i got the cm out as i wanted to get used to it. I was very much surprised that when i started my target practice - i was shooting in sa - i had at least a couple of rounds out of six that would not go off. Ok . . What's going on? I ran a cylinder in da and all went off - at least the first cylinder full. Next cylinder, i had one which didn't go off. The next i had two. Huh?

I stopped shooting it and that night took a look at it. I asked a couple of questions on the s & w forum and finally pulled the grips off the cm and my m & p and compared the main spring tension screws since they are both k frames. Sure enough, the previous owner of the cm had shortened the tension screw to smoot up the trigger, etc. As a result . . . Misfires.

My point? I think you can "tune" and improve your revolver as far as trigger pull, etc. - but at what cost? I would rather have a stiffer trigger pull and know that each round is going to go bang - regardless of if it is a range gun or a carry piece. While i know many will disagree with me and they like to "tune it up" . . . Personally, i am able to "learn" my pistol and get used to the trigger pull. Grittiness? Yes, that can be improved but as far as affecting the primer hit - i want it to fire each time and with no worry. At this point, i'm looking for a new tension screw for the cm and i'll live with the stiffer trigger pull. Ymmv with your revolvers though.

x2 171478

[44man]

Books are WRONG. Primer listed for the .44 is a mag for every powder from BE, HP38, 2400 to H110 and 296. Just WHY?
SP is not the same. They are so close you will never tell. But bring .44 loads here and I can tell you the primer used.
The .44 has the designation of Magnum so it has to have a mag primer--or does it?

[Naphtali]

Many thanks for your reply. Runfiverrun's reply, then, has zero to do with safety in using; rather he questions its ability to to obtain superior velocities at +P operating pressures? If this is an accurate restatement of his reply, still zero problem for my using TiteGroup. My three revolvers are warranted for 357 Magnum. Therefore, were operating pressure of a load "creep" within Hodgdon's recommended load for low-end 357 Magnum using 158-grain lead bullets, no issues.

The circumstance where problems have the possibility of surfacing is my furnishing handloaded cartridges to a shooter of 38 Special revolver. And that circumstance doesn't exist.

@Naphtali,

I think I can help on your question to Runfiverrun about Titegroup. This powder burns too fast to give good velocities in this round at 38 Special +P pressures. To get the best velocities and energies at +P pressures the powder should be be in the Unique, Herco, Power Pistol, Longshot, HS-6, Silhouette, True Blue AA5 burn range. You will get from 150 to 200 LESS fps from Titegroup compared to these other powders at the same pressure. I personally like Herco in 38 Special +P rounds. A close second is Unique. Try them and I think you will like them.

Marshall

[35remington]

I have yet to discover that powders like Herco or Unique, through very extensive testing, will outrun Titegroup by "150 to 200" fps at equivalent pressures in the .38.

They will not. The difference is more on the order of 50 fps, with a significant downside to the slower powders often not discovered by those who casually test them.

Titegroup actually gives much less variation with powder near the bullet and less velocity loss with forward powder positioning than the medium speed powders mentioned. I have documented this extensively in past postings here. As such I see with a properly lubed and sized bullet good results and superior ballistic consistency with Titegroup as compared to the mentioned slower powders.

Links to results of said testing upon request.