Flintlocks

[1_Ogre]

It has come to my attention lately that there have been threads concerning loading "Other than round-balls" in a Flintlock.
This is only a precautionary thread as to what can happen.
I have discussed this with many Black Powder shooters and the conclusion is that if you load anything other than a round-ball in a Flintlock you run the risk of creating dangerous pressures, barrel rupture, flash hole "BLOW OUT" and injury to yourself as well as the person beside you from the flash hole blowing out. There have been too many reports of loading a mini in a Flintlock and the flash hole blows out, many times taking the frizzen assembly with it and damage to the firearm as well as the person to the right of you.
The pressure builds up because the Flintlock was originally designed for a "ROUND BALL" to be loaded in it, and when you introduce a mini-ball, the friction coeficient is drastically increased causing massive pressure build up in the barrel, many times causing irrepairable damage to the firearm.
This thread is not to condemn anyone, tell you to "NEVER" shoot anything other than a round ball, or anything like that. This is only to inform you that when shooting anything other than a round ball, you run the risk of extreme pressure build up, possible damage to the firearm, and possible damage/injury to yourself as well as the person to your right (or left if you are a left handed shooter).
Not wanting to start a witch hunt here, but I have been contacted by many experienced Black Powder shooters that are alarmed at the threads and posts in this forum talking about shooting other than round balls in the Flintlock Black Powder rifles and handguns. I understand everyone has their OWN opinions, but experience and disasters trump opinions.
As we all know there are a lot of people on this site that do not even own a Reloading Manual (Black Powder or otherwise) and rely 100% on information given by others. I just don't want anyone getting hurt or damaging an otherwise fine firearm.

[451 Pete]

Steve,

Thank you for taking the time to post this. It is very well stated and I do hope you do not get negative feedback from the ones sitting here just waiting to jump on any issue or subject and wanting to cause turmoil on the forum. The forum has a great deal of good information but in my opinion needs to have a few cautions like you mentioned in your post above from time to time. We have to remember that what we are talking about can be read by someone new to shooting black powder or a flintlock and taken as something they will try that in their particular rifle or with their personal experience level can get them into serious trouble.
Again and in the interest of safety, thank you for putting this up.

Pete

[rhouser]

Because I am a new flintlock owner (6 months) I cannot dispute anything that I am reading here. I will offer two sides to this post based on my experience and reading only.

Side 1: I have a new (used) stainless steel and composite Thompson/Center Firestorm flintlock that comes with a manual that includes loads for roundball, Maxi & Mini loads of varying weight bullets, and a Sabot/Jacketed bullet section of loads. I do NOT posit that this makes it good or right. I cannot state that this would be safe in any other flintlock, but, I suspect that they have tested these loads and feel that there is some margin of safety in them. I will now forever wonder if I am going to blow out the flash hole insert. I will certainly make sure I am clear to the right (people or fire hazards) before I fire.

Side 2: The following is based on what I have seen on the range with my rifle. I was shooting on a two at each bench range setup with another shooter (lefty) directly to the right of my rifle. I discussed the flash hole discharge with him and we agreed that he would stop and lean away when I called for a shot (fire in the hole). My cyclic rate is not very fast so this wouldn't be too disruptive on him. In addition I erected a frame the range provides to control auto loaders ejected shells and hung a 14 inch wide piece of full weight floor carpeting over the frame to provide a physical barrier. This carpet was almost a foot from the flash hole. Whenever I fired, the flash hole discharge was enough to move the entire piece of carpet by a full three inches (out and back) like it had been hit with a rock from a slingshot. I was astounded by the violence and power of the flash hole discharge. So was the lefty. We agreed that our process was necessary.

This post is timely to me, because I am new and because I just finished seeing the power of the flash hole discharge. I never even thought about an insert blow out. It would be like a bullet.

Now what do I do about the Thompson Center loading guidelines? Ignore all but the roundball?

very respectfully, rch

[rancher1913]

are the "other than round ball" loads for inlines only or can certain caplocks fire them with a reasonable amount of safety.

[rhouser]

deleted

[rhouser]

I deleted my above response to rancher1913 because he was asking about sidelock percussions.
thanks rch

[1_Ogre]

I am not well versed in the Black Powder arena, but if you want Honest to GOD experience, I'd suggest contacting "451 Pete". That guy has more experience in Black Powder and Flintlocks than you can imagine. If it's been done, he's seen it and he will ONLY give you good advice that's not reckless in any sense of the imagination. He loves Black Powder and if I needed advice, that's the first person I'd go to. Just my opinion, but most of my opinions are from experience and knowing people.

[451 Pete]

RHS,
With a new rifle and following the recommended load data from the manufacturer you should have a certain amount of safety in shooting light bullets. Your rifle is built from modern barrel steel and in that respect has some safety that older guns or originals do not. Manufacturers are in business to sell guns and advertising does not sometimes tell the whole story. As you mentioned in your post, you noticed the amount of back pressure coming back out of the flash hole so you now realize what could happen if something were to go wrong. I am not going to tell you that the data from the manufacturer is wrong but I will caution you of several things.

First is that the flintlock rifle was never of a design built to withstand heavy pressures such as that generated by large projectiles being shot with large powder charges.

Secondly things wear. The hole in the touch hole will enlarge, sometimes very rapidly, when a lot of back pressure is created by firing loads creating those heavy pressures. This will allow even more gas to escape from the firing of the rifle by that gas taking the path of least resistance and out of the touch hole instead of down the barrel.

Lastly is that the manufacturers build these rifles for the majority of the people that only shoot that rifle a few times a year, maybe only several shots to check sights before taking it out in the field to hunt with it. If you are going to do a lot of target shooting make sure to keep the rifle in top condition and stay focused on not only where that barrel is pointed but also on where that touch hole is pointed when it go's off. Also if you notice any enlargement of that touch hole stop shooting it and replace it with a new liner.

Now it is your call as to what you decide to shoot out of it.

Pete

[1_Ogre]

Well said Pete

[waksupi]

I agree with the original post. If you feel you must use the elongated projectiles, shoot them in a proper firearm for the job.
Just because a company tells you that you can do something, doesn't make it a good idea. I recall a black powder handbook that was published years ago by one of the so-called gurus of black powder. In my opinion, most of the loads he had recommended were far above safe and necessary levels, many of them pushing into being down right dangerous.
If you must shoot them, go do it by yourself, so some innocent bystander isn't injured by flying debris. Just because it hasn't blown up 'yet", doesn't mean it can't. That actually applies to any firearm, but I think holds especially true in the original scenario.
Elongated projectiles offer no advantage. A round ball will kill anything we care to tackle.

[KCSO]

And most of the original guns were far thicker in the barrel than we see today and the touchhole was not a liner... and they were made for ROUND BALL. I have never ever sold a flinter that was recommended for anything other than ROUND BALL and BLACK powder.

[charlie b]

From the Lyman web site for the Great Plains Hunter rifle offered in percussion and flint:
The Great Plains Hunter model features a fast, 1 in 32" shallow groove rifled barrel. It's ideal for shooting the many types of modern projectiles available to today's black powder hunter, such as heavier conical bullets and sabots. The Great Plains Hunter has all of the high quality features of our Classic Great Plains rifle. It is also pre-drilled and tapped for the optional 57 GPR receiver sight for the Great Plains rifle.

From what has been posted some seem to think Lyman does not know what they are talking about?

I agree that none of the original flintlocks should be fired with other than patched ball.

[varsity07840]

I shoot an original .69 cal flint 1816 that's been rebarreled with a Whitacre rifled tube. I shoot a patched .678 ball that weighs 480 gr or a Rapine semi wadcutter that weighs 500 gr. The charge is the same for both, 80 gr 2F GOEX. Given the same charge and only a 20 gr difference, I fail to see how the minie load is a problem. The problem is when a shooter who uses max or over max roundball loads decides to use the same charge with a conical, which by the way can and will vary in weight for a given caliber, depending on design. They all don't weigh the same.The original government
.69 cal minie weighs 730 gr. There's going to be a big difference in pressure with a given charge between that bullet and my 500 gr bullet that's virtually the same as the roundball. One of the big problems with black powder arms safety is that a novice fails to do any homework before stuffing a load down the barrel. It's not like making a choice between a 150 gr or 180 gr bullet in a factory .30-06 load. On last thing to consider is how heavy the wall thickness of the barrel is. Truth be known, several barrel makers will not warranty thinner wall barrels with percussion drums as opposed to flint liners.

[6pt-sika]

I had Contemporary Longrifle flinters in 45 , 50 and 54 and they all got round balls . I have an original 36 call halfstock percussion that I also only shoot roundballs .

To me that was part of shooting Contemporary or Original longrifles . Same can be said for a nice quality Hawken roundball all the way .

[725]

The ubiquitous 1 / 48 rifling was very popular so it would be adequate with either roundball or boolit. I get the concern overall but shoot what the gun is designed for. If a manufacturer has a manual that gives XY&Z for recommended loads, I'd feel safe with it. My one good friend has a modern in-liner and loads 150 grains behind a sabot bullet. He almost fell off his chair when I told him I shoot 70 grains behind a paper patched boolit. Have never recovered a boolit yet, nor lost an animal. When I'm not shooting this one paper patched, I use a roundball and have never felt under gunned.

[rfd]

pour moi, and strictly for traditional flintlock sidelocks, patched round balls and real black powder rule the roost. i see no reason - hunting or target - to mess with maxie's, minie's or other forms of conicals, saboted or not. what others do with regards with their trad sidelocks and projectiles is of no concern of mine, and i find inline zip guns as heretical aberrations to the term "muzzleloader". to each their own, it's all good.

[Plastikosmd]

I see the point with a traditional gun. I think the advise is a good starting point. This is not to say it cannot be done and safely. I have seen customs by a few of the friendship greats that had no issues on the slug gun range. Heavy projectiles, heavy charges, platinum vent liners, custom actions and barrels. Frankly I own cannons that are less well designed and on a charge/weight comparison they take the cake. Ymmv

[Ballistics in Scotland]

From the Lyman web site for the Great Plains Hunter rifle offered in percussion and flint:
The Great Plains Hunter model features a fast, 1 in 32" shallow groove rifled barrel. It's ideal for shooting the many types of modern projectiles available to today's black powder hunter, such as heavier conical bullets and sabots. The Great Plains Hunter has all of the high quality features of our Classic Great Plains rifle. It is also pre-drilled and tapped for the optional 57 GPR receiver sight for the Great Plains rifle.

From what has been posted some seem to think Lyman does not know what they are talking about?

I agree that none of the original flintlocks should be fired with other than patched ball.

They do know what they are talking about, and that twist would be rather bad for round ball. We should also remember that balls are loaded with a cloth patch, which some people make as tight as they can get down the bore. I think a fairly light conical bullet will impose less pressure than that. It is the really heavy bullet sometimes used with percussion target rifles that we really need to avoid. But you can't buy a ready made rifle for those.

I agree that flash-hole liners are a very dubious proposition. I would want a stainless or other insert it to be silver soldered in place, or a conical insert to be put in place via a pluggable hole in the other side of the breech-plug. If the rifle is built with an investment cast breech-plug like Track of the Wolf's, it is even worth replacing it when the hole enlarges.

For the safety and convenience of others on the range, though not hole enlargement, the shape of the pan can be significant.

[rhouser]

451 Pete, thanks for your insight. I bought a used stainless steel Fire Storm with the Tru-Glo adjustable sights and the composite stock because it is intuitively so wrong and I just couldn't help it. I love this thing. Minimalist with no percussion cap. Just drop the powder, drop a PRB (I learned this here), ram it home, prime the pan and flash/bang.

I did not even quote the loads that came with this gun. They are easily "magnum" loads showing pellet loads in addition to the B/P load data. I will stick with the B/P because the lock times are faster, but, I have confirmed it will shoot pyrodex rs and 777.

My favorite load so far is a .490 ball with a .15 lubed patch and 60 gr of black powder. I can shoot 3 balls touching at 50 yards. I don't know where they go at 100 yards. I increased my powder to 90 grains and the round balls showed up again at 100 yards.

I bought a maxi-ball mold and already had a lee r-e-a-l mold in 50 to see how it would shoot with no patch. With the 90 grain 2f load it is accurate enough for deer at 100.

I want to be safe, and now will be conscious of the "blow out" risk. Thanks to you all for this great sight and the time you give to improve casting and shooting lead.

v/r rch

[Tatume]

Since I started this with my inquiry, I'll follow up with my own observations. The discussion started with a question about building a new flintlock rifle, using modern materials. Responses have been all over the board.

Here's what I consider to be the bottom line. My Parker-Hale Volunteer shoots a 450 grain bullet. The nipple is threaded 5/16"-18 tpi. The rifle I'm having built will use the same diameter and weight bullet. The Chambers "White Lightin" vent liner is threaded 5/16"-32 tpi. The vent liner has a larger orifice and stronger threads than the Volunteer nipple. It should easily contain the same pressure as the Volunteer.

[Hanshi]

I'm not a proponent of "magnumising" any traditional flintlock or percussion. Using heavy conicals or large powder charges is wasteful and unnecessary. I don't and have no desire to use anything other than a lead ball. This is only my opinion and should be taken as such. There are many "modernized" flint/percussion rifles and it's probably quite safe to follow the makers suggestions. But I've never had a problem with a lead ball (prb) at moderate velocities taking game both large and small. Plus, I use flintlocks in order to create some challenge for hunting and to do it the way those hunters did during the rifle's period of use. To me that means prb.

[rfd]

I'm not a proponent of "magnumising" any traditional flintlock or percussion. Using heavy conicals or large powder charges is wasteful and unnecessary. I don't and have no desire to use anything other than a lead ball. This is only my opinion and should be taken as such. There are many "modernized" flint/percussion rifles and it's probably quite safe to follow the makers suggestions. But I've never had a problem with a lead ball (prb) at moderate velocities taking game both large and small. Plus, I use flintlocks in order to create some challenge for hunting and to do it the way those hunters did during the rifle's period of use. To me that means prb.

+1 ... what the old guy said. :drinks: 8-)

[Earlwb]

Well during the age of the flintlocks just about no one had thought of using anything other than round ball bullets or shot in the smoothbores too. Plus the rifling was a slow twist rate for round balls too. So trying to shoot a conical was likely going to be terribly inaccurate in them. So it makes sense to not fire conicals in the flintlocks. I think it is correct in that the flash hole is going to have a lot of excessive gas blow by as well. I can see the screw in flash hole inserts getting blasted out of those flintlock guns that have them. Now then as far as history was concerned, the conical bullets didn't really start to appear until the 1830's. The conical bullets coincided with everyone switching over to use percussion caps too. In 1832 the Minie ball was invented and it became hugely popular and dominated the bullet choice used in the percussion cap rifles from then on.

[rhbrink]

+1 ... what the old guy said. :drinks: 8-)
Yeh! Old guys know stuff!!!!

[charlie b]

My interest is not in period correct or older rifles. I like to do my rifle shooting at 200, 300 and sometimes 400yd. Just fun stuff. And I am interested in using a flintlock. The Lyman's got my attention due to their faster twist and being designed for conical.

Why flintlock? I like the idea of a challenge. And I like the simplicity of not needing caps. And, no, I don't shoot at ranges where people rub elbows. I am frequently the only one there.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Since I started this with my inquiry, I'll follow up with my own observations. The discussion started with a question about building a new flintlock rifle, using modern materials. Responses have been all over the board.

Here's what I consider to be the bottom line. My Parker-Hale Volunteer shoots a 450 grain bullet. The nipple is threaded 5/16"-18 tpi. The rifle I'm having built will use the same diameter and weight bullet. The Chambers "White Lightin" vent liner is threaded 5/16"-32 tpi. The vent liner has a larger orifice and stronger threads than the Volunteer nipple. It should easily contain the same pressure as the Volunteer.

This has to be considered an experimental project, but strikes me as well worth doing. While I suggested a tapered liner inserted from the inside, a threaded one should be just as safe. Indeed it would be better if it has a slot or holes to unscrew and replace it, although an extractor for broken screws might be a good alternative. It will probably erode much faster than a nipple. for it won't be closed off by the remains of the cap and the inertia of the hammer at the moment of ignition.

A couple of practices with muzzle-loading artillery might be of interest. The touch-hole was frequently bushed with a conical bush, inserted from within. Once in a while the bush would blow out and head for outer space, and would be replaced with one pulled into place by a piece of string. One of the gun-crew would have a thick leather palm-piece, a bit like a leather-stitcher's, which he would clap over the touch-hole as soon as the gun's recoil movement stopped. Even after the pressure had dropped close to atmospheric, this was held worth doing to reduce touch-hole erosion, and defer all that messing about with the string.

I think it would be worth having that screw-in vent made of stainless steel or beryllium copper, which is what "White lightnin' sounds like. As well as resisting erosion better than carbon steel, it would be less likely to seize in place.

You will very likely find pressure and thus velocity lower than in your Volunteer, or have to use more powder, producing more fouling, to keep it the same. This isn't just because some of your gases will be lost, rushing off sideways. Black powder is more tolerant of powder-to-powder ignition than smokeless, but not entirely, and flintlock ignition is slower than the penetrating blast of a cap.

Incidentally (and it is incidentally, for this purpose), a 32tpi thread isn't stronger, in most applications, than an 18tpi one. A thread can fail by stripping or by breaking in two. and the major thread series (Unified, Whitworth and metric) all have two main pitches, plus special ones. The coarser of the two, like UNC, gives the optimum strength in ordinary use with nuts of standard length. Finer will strip more easily, and coarser will break from root to root more easily, under tension. The commonest reasons for using a fine pitch are to give greater tightening effect for a given amount of rotational effort, or less tendency to loosen by vibration. It can be used with impunity for a nipple or vent plug, as the strain on it isn't tensile.

[Earlwb]

Deleted somehow this wound up in the wrong thread.

[KCSO]

Well they call it a Plains rifle with a barrel too small, a set of semi modern sights and a coil spring lock...in a word...yes!

[dromia]

The Volunteer load is very hard on the nipples, which is why most of us Volunteer shooters find it worth spending the money on Platinum lined nipples. That should give and indication of the wear and tear the pressure of these loads create.

Flintlock bouchings would have the same attrition.

[Geezer in NH]

Like a venting flintlock will blow up from a bullet designed for the twist.

Speculation by the op only.

Prove that wrong, I do not think so. I don't care whether you like non HC ammo but why spread fear that is not proven??

For the record I am not a fan of that practice but lets keep it real and not superstition.

[10 ga]

Has anybody bothered to do any pressure trace work on black powder loadings to truth any of what any of these guys are saying? A bit of pressure trace work would settle this once and for all. 10

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Like a venting flintlock will blow up from a bullet designed for the twist.

Speculation by the op only.

Prove that wrong, I do not think so. I don't care whether you like non HC ammo but why spread fear that is not proven??

For the record I am not a fan of that practice but lets keep it real and not superstition.

People are sometimes quite right in warning of potential dangers which haven't actually happened yet. I think the OP exaggerates a danger which might apply with a flintlock of conventional design. But it is actually fairly hard to blow up anything with black powder. I don't think there is any danger with a rifle of the caliber and wall thickness found in percussion long-range match rifles such as the Parker-Hale Volunteer.

What you will get is the vent erosion problem. Whether the project is worthwhile depends on how much trouble, expense and departure from traditional design you find acceptable to combat this.

One reason it is hard to find authoritative pressure-space information for black powder muzzle loaders is that the results are more variable than with smokeless. Fouling and compression of the charge can make them misleading.

[Geezer in NH]

Vent erosion means screw in a new liner. Why You want it silver soldered is beyond me, seems you also have superstition unneeded fears, do you also silver solder your nipples in???

Not picking on you but who cares when the touch hole erodes when it can be changed no different than a nipple that erodes even when a hammer is held by a spring to help seal it.

Twist is the concern as most flintlocks do not have a fast enough one to stabilize an elongated projectile in the first place. New made by some company's trying to make a buck had fast twist bores AND are wrong IMHO.

[charlie b]

Like I stated above, not interested in period correct. I've considered several, including one in stainless and would not care if it had a synthetic stock. At the higher pressures even a percussion needs platinum or beryllium lined nipples.

As some have noted, if you want to be period correct, or use an older rifle, round ball is required.

[Tatume]

All guns are interesting. Innovations are the spice of life.