Stepping back in time - Oversized 1873 & pure lead bullets

[w30wcf]

............The rifle: Original special order 1873Winchester made in 1882
.........The barrel: oversized >.4365" dia breech /.4335" dia.muzzle / somewhat rough
The ammunition: replication of the original b.p. ammunition / pure lead bullets(.426") / 40 grs. b.p.
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Leverguns/1873%202.jpg
Even though I have experimented in the past with b.p. inthis rifle, it was mostly with bullets that fit the barrel.
Recently I had an interest in stepping back in time to 1882 and the original owner and wanted to see how the rifle would have performed for him then using the only ammunition available at that time, which was factory loaded with 40grs. of b.p., and had a thin card wad between the powder and a pure lead bullet.

For the test, I used some original W.R.A. Co. .44 W.C.F. headstamped cases. 40 grs. of Swiss FFG powder was used and compressed .20". A .04"thick card wad was then placed over the powder and a pure lead 427098 bullet was seated and crimped.

Just as it likely happened back in 1882, the pure lead bullets bumped up .010" to fill the oversized bore and produced the 50 target below.
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Leverguns/1873%20.44%20W.C.F.%20black%20powder%2050%20yards% 20%20with%20notes.jpg
I am sure the original owner was very pleased.........as was I!

w30wcf

[Dutchman]

What a splendid rifle!

Many decades ago in Colorado I shot a nice '73 rifle made in 1879.

Every time I shot it I could hear indians whoopin' and horse hooves pounding
the ground and arrows zingin' by my head. But because I'm a splendid indian fighter
I got all of them without reloading.

Dutch

[smokeywolf]

:goodpost:Great post and absolutely beautiful rifle.

[gandydancer]

all that's old is new again. great rifle. great caliber. good shooting. ah heck! great shooting.

[35 Whelen]

Thanks for the post, Mr. Kort!

35W

[TXGunNut]

Nicely done, thanks for sharing this beautiful rifle with us.

[Artful]

Excellent Target - It's interesting to explore the long disused methods of our craft.

[Outpost75]

John,

It would be interesting to repeat this test with Trail Boss, to determine if the bullets upset as well. If I recall correctly, in your testing of Hornady Cowboy bullets which were reduced in diameter excessively during the loading process, TB gave good results.

People who aren't familiar with your earlier work would benefit from a refresher.

[OS OK]

Were those W.R.A. cases actual 'baloon head' cases also?

There is another conversation going about those here...

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=462909

[w30wcf]

Guys, Thank you for the kind words.

Ed, I have tried Trail Boss with the .010" undersized lead bullet (.426") and got partial keyholes. With a .430" diameter lead bullet (.006") undersized, 5 shots @ 50 ft. grouped into 1" with one of the holes being very slightly oval so there is no doubt that the fast pressure spike is bumping up the pure lead bullets ..... just not as well as a full load b.p.

OS OK, yes the cases are of the balloon solid head type aka SHBP (Solid Head Button Pocket).

w30wcf

[Nobade]

Looks like those old time Winchester engineers weren't all that dumb after all. If you read the gun magazines, at least back to the 70's when I started reading them, the writers will tell you how bad the 44WCF works, how weak it is, terrible accuracy, etc. Maybe they just needed to learn how to load it like it is meant to be used? Thank you for all the work you have put into teaching people what that is and how these things are supposed to work!

-Nobade

[TXGunNut]

hmmm....now I need to cast some PB boolits for my rough old 1873. She fouls out pretty quick with BP & WW's. Hadn't occurred to me that they didn't have WW's back then.

[Argentino]

Very interesting thread. It really amazes me the expansion rate obtained with pure lead and good BP, even when a solid base boolit is used.

It is certainly a field that deserves to be explored when using BP. Several molds might worth a trial before considering them "undersized" for a certain use.

Thank you for sharing it with us,

Argie.

[w30wcf]

Nobade, Thank you for the kind words. Yes, perhaps if they had tried true replications of the original b.p. cartridges, their outcome might have been different. With replications of original smokeless cartridges which contained .426" jacketed bullets in this rifle, accuracy is, understandably, pretty dismal though.

TXGunNut, I have mostly used groove diameter bullets of w.w. alloy in this rifle with b.p. and accuracy has been very good. Thankfully, the chamber neck is large enough to accept cartridges with .437" bullets. In rifles that won't chamber cartridges loaded with groove sized bullets, then smaller pure lead or 99/1 (lead / tin) bullets will likely give the best accuracy.

After the 1st fouling shot, 6 rounds in 1 3/4" @ 50 yards.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Leverguns/target%201873%20SR%20b.p..jpg
The bullets were bumped up to .437" diameter prior to seating them.

Argentino, I had read about how the combination of lead bullets and black powder would work in various barrels with inconsistent dimensions so I finally decided to give it a try. I was somewhat amazed that the accuracy was that good with a bullet that was .010" undersized.

w30wcf

[Old Scribe]

Great post. Thank you. I have an original '73 that has a rough barrel. I need to try your method and see if I can get rid of the key holes.

[jrmartin1964]

A most interesting post, as your reports from the range always are. Thanks for sharing, both your results and that beautiful '73.
And to borrow a quote from Jacob McCandles, "That's good shooting!"