"New" Trapdoor

[dubber123]

I picked up a made in 1884 Trapdoor tonight, my first. It started life as a rifle, but was chopped to 25" some time long ago. It appears they reused the original front sight. I pulled it apart and gave it a good scrubbing and the only oil it has seen in a long time. The action is tight, and all the springs are strong. The bore looks worse and worse the more I clean it :)

I think I will run some fire lapping loads through it tomorrow, and maybe a few lighter loads. I plan to trim it to regular carbine length, as all originality is gone anyways. If it shoots decently I will be happy for my $250.

[varsity07840]

Black powder only! Tie it down and fire it remote for the first few loads, then do the same for issue loads. If the bore is badly pitted, be prepared for a leading problem.

[waksupi]

Good price. There are lots of smokeless loads that are safe in the Trapdoors. Just don't hot rod it.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Slug the barrel to get an idea of diameter needed. A .462" and larger is not uncommon. My 1884 rifle likes a .461" boolet.Robert

[dubber123]

9 fire lapping loads through it, 4 grains of Bullseye and a 415 cast rolled in 320 grit. This got lots more junk out of the bore, but it's no peach. Lots more fire lapping to do, but gonna put 5 loaded with 27 grains of H4198 down the tube and see if they even hit nose first. I loaded them as cast at .461", and they plunk in fine. I had heard they run very loose, and this is my biggest boolit.

[dubber123]

No earth shattering KaBooms :) Nice thump to the 27 grain load, should be in the 1,200 fps range. Much to my surprise, the first 4 went in 1-5/8" at 50 yards off hand. We won't talk about #5, I had a small brain fart and yanked it low, but still all in 4". I would not doubt it would shoot in an inch at 50 from a rest. I am once again surprised how well nasty bores can shoot. I can barely see rifling at the crown. I still plan on cutting it back to standard carbine length. No doubt it will shoot terribly then ;)

The boolit was about 9 Bhn, and is a GC design. I thought the GC might help grip the nasty bore. I will try plain base as GC's are kind of a waste at this speed, but if it needs them to shoot, I'm ok with that too. I kinda like this old crowbar.

[leadman]

Sometimes poly-fil helps a pitted bore shoot well. Cheap and easy.

[Hardcast416taylor]

That `old crowbar` was the `Assault rifle` of the latter part of the 1800`s for the military and was used in the Spanish American War and was even used as a training tool prior to WW1. Sorta funny that the trapdoor rifles story start life as being modified from Civil War front loaders. You may even try paper patched bullets to get a larger diameter boolet to fill the bore.Robert

[dubber123]

Thanks for the tips fellas, I keep looking at he polyfill, but haven't put any in yet. 27 grains doesn't fill the case much. :) Real load development will be after the barrel gets bobbed. I just tried another 50 yarder, got 1-7/8" for 5. I can do better, but shows it's not a lost cause. Getting some rifling at the crown should help it out a bit.

[Scharfschuetze]

Getting some rifling at the crown should help it out a bit.

Trapdoors are often seen with worn crowns from improper cleaning as well as pitting in the first inch below the crown. Improper cleaning for the worn crown and, believe it or not, spider webs and hygroscopic cotton lint are often suspect for some of the pitting due to improper storage of the rifles.

I hope you get it shooting well as they are quite fun to shoot. Let's see a photo when you get a chance.

For the oversize boolits that you may need, look up "Wolf's Western Traders" for Lee dies optimized for Trapdoors as well as other stuff for your old war horse.

[dubber123]

Trapdoors are often seen with worn crowns from improper cleaning as well as pitting in the first inch below the crown. Improper cleaning for the worn crown and, believe it or not, spider webs and hygroscopic cotton lint are often suspect for some of the pitting due to improper storage of the rifles.

I hope you get it shooting well as they are quite fun to shoot. Let's see a photo when you get a chance.

For the oversize boolits that you may need, look up "Wolf's Western Traders" for Lee dies optimized for Trapdoors as well as other stuff for your old war horse.

Thank you for the link, but I didn't have any luck finding dies on it. My Hornady dies just need the boolit guiding sleeve opened a bit, as the .461" boolits stick in it. Looks like a trip to the lathe is in order.

[georgewxxx]

Read this article I put together several years ago. You might come up with a few more ideas as to loads and such.

http://www.hensleygibbs.com/casting/trapdoorspringfield.htm

[big bore 99]

+1 on the paper patching. Give it a try when you get the rest taken care of.

[dubber123]

Thank you for the article, I may have a few of the molds mentioned, but none of the lighter ones, all of mine being 405+ grains. I would like to try paper patching in this one, but I am not sure if any of my designs are appropriate. I have only ever tried patching in 50-90, and it worked extremely well. I love the vintage look of a patched cartridge too. :)

[dubber123]

Still haven't got around to snipping the barrel on this one. It has about an inch or so in front of the front sight, and it looks like if I trimmed it back 1/2-5/8" I would be into "better" rifling. I may try this first, and if it shoots some substantially improved groups, it may just stay at 25". I would like it shorter, but I might chicken out if it does well :)

I tried on a whim some 50/50 WW-Pb RN GC boolits I had lying around that weighed 505 grains. These barely break .4595", so I didn't expect too much in the loose bore. I loaded them over 27 grains of H4198. Surprisingly they grouped in 1-3/8" at 60 yards. (my 50 yard guess was 10 yards short of reality). 3 of the 5 were in a 1/2" cloverleaf. 1 group doesn't mean much, but this mold shows promise. Heavier than I wanted, but hey, if it shoots the best :)

[tbx-4]

dubber,
You got a good deal there... I paid about $100 more for a similar TD, tho the barrel on mine is a bit better. About 25% pitted around the throat and the rest shiny. The barrel was cut to 26" with a large front sight dovetailed in. The stock was sporterized and cut shorter than a Carbine.

I cut the barrel to 22" and crowned it by hand then added a piece of wood to the front of the stock and reshaped to Carbine length. Added a saddle ring and bar. It's at the gunsmiths to have a new front sight silver soldered on.

This is what it looked like just before I took it to the gunsmith.
http://i.imgur.com/4DeTusp.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ipTBqRE.jpg

Hope yours turns out well. Keep us posted.

[dubber123]

Knocked about 5/8" off it and re crowned. I can now see rifling at the muzzle, but it is for sure still ugly. If tomorrow goes well, I will try a group or two.

tbx-4, yours looks a good bit better than mine :)

[dubber123]

A bit of an update, first group after the re-crown had shot 1 go directly high of the group, the bore got flooded with ATF during the crowning and I apparently didn't get it all out. The next 4 however went into 1.087" at 60 yards. That is the best yet, but 1 group doesn't prove much, so I tried again. Second group with the schmutz out of the barrel resulted in a 1.035" 5 shot group at 60 yards. The load was a 415 cast GC with 27 grains of H-4198.

I can't wait to cut it off to 22" and really screw it up ;)

[tbx-4]

Dubber,
I'm using 22 gr of IMR4198 with 405 gr factory cast boolit and it's hitting point of aim at 100 yards. (Actually was shooting high till I added a bit of silver solder to the top of the front sight.)

Have you chrono'd your 27 gr H-4198 load?

[dubber123]

Dubber,
I'm using 22 gr of IMR4198 with 405 gr factory cast boolit and it's hitting point of aim at 100 yards. (Actually was shooting high till I added a bit of silver solder to the top of the front sight.)

Have you chrono'd your 27 gr H-4198 load?

I haven't, but will if it stops raining here :) I shot some at 28 grains and accuracy seemed the same. Both are on the starting end of the Trapdoor data section in my Hodgdon manual. I'd like at least 1,300 fps when I finalize on a load.

[dubber123]

Just 1 round of each, 27 and 28 grains of H-4198, but should give you a ballpark idea. 27 grains, 1,187 fps, 28 grains 1,243 fps. I will try 29 and 30, but I don't think I will go any higher.

30 grains of H-4198 averaged 1,307 for 3 shots. Once I snip off 3" of barrel I will either have to up the charge or switch powders if I want to stay above 1,300 fps. If it's significantly more accurate at the lower charges that's fine too.

[tbx-4]

That's interesting... My Lyman manual says 31 gr of IMR4198 in standard 32" TD will produce just over 1300 fps.

Thanks!

[dubber123]

That's interesting... My Lyman manual says 31 gr of IMR4198 in standard 32" TD will produce just over 1300 fps.

Thanks!

I don't have my Hodgdon manual handy, but I believe they list 31 grains of H-4198 as max with a 405, and listed velocity I think was 1,459 fps from a 24" barrel. Pressure was in the 18,000 Psi range, still rather low.

[tbx-4]

dubber,
Just to encourage you along...(and to show off my gun! :)) here are a couple photos of mine now that it's finished... Starting to work up loads as time permits.

http://i.imgur.com/j7tPLS1.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RG5d0Qr.jpg

[dubber123]

Yours looks great! Mine shows a lot of use and neglect, but it's growing on me. ;) I goofed when I ordered my front sight, it was way too short, attempt #2 is on the way. After the barrel is shortened, I will do a light cosmetic makeover, but it will still be far short of how yours looks. Good luck with the load workup, the bore on mine doesn't seem to be as loose as many report, which gives me many more mold options.

[Brandi]

Very cool. I have a similar rifle myself. It's a Model 1873 that started life as a rifle but was cut down to a carbine, as many were. I don't know the barrel length, I've never measured it, I guess I need to do that. The gun itself is in very good condition considering the normal wear to a gun that old. The barrel is in very good condition from what I'm told by folks who know these things. I had it looked at those same folks and they it was likely cut down in the late 1800's and was done by a very skilled gunsmith judging by the work done.

I was looking for a Sharps Carbine or a Springfield Carbine at the time but the prices for a "from the arsenal" carbine was out of my range and this cut down carbine came along so I went that route. Really glad I did, I love this gun. I think we've only shot 6 or 8 cartridges out of it but I was hooked. A friend who used to load for his made us up a handful of cartridges just to try it out and I don't even know where we hit but it was a hoot. There's just something about shooting a gun with so much history in it that fascinates me.

My birthday was a couple weeks ago and my sister bought me a book called "Loading Cartridges For The Original .45-70 Springfield Rifle And Carbine" written by J.S. and Pat Wolf. It's not the most well written book but it has to be the most informative. It contains information that is just amazing. It's basically the result of the author and his wife who spent years testing to develop the loads that work best in vintage Springfield's because they couldn't find good information anywhere else. It's extremely highly rated on Amazon and I have to agree. From what I've read it's full of incredible information including copies of original arsenal letters about the guns. Anyway, thought I would mention it because I think it's well worth the money for anyone shooting a vintage Springfield "trapdoor".

I don't know how to post pictures on here or if I'm even able to yet but I will at some point. Loved seeing those posted here :)

[Buckshot]

............I suppose it was in the early 90's I picked up a M1884 TD rifle, that was in VG condition externally. The bore was close to toast. I sent it off to The Montana Rifleman for a new barrel. I'd called them and was told they had a 'Tracer Lathe' and could match the original barrel's contour. I also had them D&T all the pertinent places, and had them blue it. I'd sent the action for fitting.

When I got it back it it was wondrous to behold with it's gleaming new 6 groove barrel, and all shiny blued. The only thing I had to do was a bit of minor metal removal on the inside of the rear barrel band to get it to fit. I suppose the barrel was a tad larger in OD then 'Issue', but a fine tooth round file with judicious care remedied the issue. Shoots like a house afire now. No leading, and you can now easily hit whatshuraim'in at :-)

............Buckshot

[bigted]

So here is my experience with my own TD that has been cut down as well.

My 1884 fits me poorly as the stock is so high in the comb that I get smacked in the cheek when I sight through the sights. Guess being it is not stock OEM I should be able to carve it down to more comfortable fit.

Other then this ... I really like mine as well. Hope yours has the fun factor like mine has.

[webfoot10]

Hi tbx-4; Is that rifle made from the barreled action that I think I sold you? If it is it came
out pretty nice. I wonder how some of these projects come out. Anyway nice job.
webfoot10

[M-Tecs]

I have two chopped TD's I left one with the "R" Buffington sight. The second one I purchased a 1879 carbine sight to maintain an earlier carbine appearance.

http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/TrapdoorSights.html

I would love to find a "C" Buffington sight for my next build.

[dualsport]

Good score! If it was mine I wouldn't change a thing. $250 and pretty darned accurate to boot.

[tbx-4]

Webfoot,
No, the barreld action I got from you is soaking in ATF still. It's my winter project.
This one above came from Gunbroker a bit later. I did use the trigger guard you sent with the lug ground off. The trigger guard plate is original to the rifle. Post #16 has some details of what was done to this rifle.
The barrel on this carbine isn't near as good as the one I got from you but it's not a bad shooter with hand loads. I can hit an 8" steel plate at 100 yards off hand but it's not even close to moa. It'll put meat on the table though and that's what counts.