Another Winchester M-1873 Inquiry

[9.3X62AL]

This is an adjunct to my posts regarding Marlin 1894 and Winchester 1892 variants in 357 Magnum caliber, and their scarcity over the past few years.

I see that some importers are now featuring repro Model 1873 variants in 357 and 44 Magnum calibers. My initial thoughts were "NO FLIPPIN' WAY" would I consider running current SAAMI-spec 357 or 44 ammo (pressure rating in the 36K PSI range) in these toggle-link examples, and even stronger language would follow any thought of trying Doug Wesson-era 357 Mag loadings in any such platform with their 42K-43K PSI ratings. I don't fancy having a bolt assembly installed in my eye socket.

I still harbor prejudice about SAAMI loads, thinking here that 357 loads that produce "replica 1880s" velocities--900 FPS in wheelguns and 1250-1300 FPS in long guns should be their limit. I suspect that Uberti uses more modern metallurgy in their current '73's than what is present in my original '73 x 44/40, but I would like to hear from folks with actual experience with the rifles to assess their potential for use with SAAMI-spec 357 loads. TIA.

[TXGunNut]

There's an article by Dick Abraham in a recent WACA mag that advances the opinion toggle-link actions aren't nearly as weak as we've been lead to believe. I need to re-read the article as I don't totally agree with or understand all I read but I suspect he is probably right. Long story short he says he's been collecting Winchesters for over 50 years and has yet to see a blown up toggle-link action. The article doesn't specifically address your concern about the modern chamberings in replica firearms. I have no desire to hot-rod the 1873 or 1892, original or replica, and since I'd be shooting lead I wouldn't be exceeding the pressures these rifles were designed for.

[Griff]

Remember, Uberti versions have to pass their inspections which are conducted by the gov't. Their test loads I understand are done with double charges. I don't recall the exact psi, but it's quite high. I have 3 toggle links in 45Colt. They don't get fed SAAMI loads by any means, as I'll sometimes use the same loads in my Colt SAAs. Also remember, they don't chamber these rounds in the brass (gunmetal, not really brass), framed 1860 or 1866. In 30+ years of CAS, I've heard of one stretched 1866 receiver by a person I know and trust. There have been reports of others... but these are 2nd & 3rd hand... maybe 4th hand reports.

I don't know that I like the idea of touching off a 44Mag in a toggle link, but... it's all about "bolt thrust"... and the .357 just doesn't initiate that much bolt thrust. Light loads that don't expand the case to grip the chamber walls are probably worse for adding bolt thrust to the equation. My 45Colt CAS loads are in the area of 950-1000 fps with 160-225grain pills. My original 45Colt 1873 was one of the 1st five rifles Uberti chambered in 45 Colt, back in 1986 and I've used it in CAS matches since then... with no adverse wear & tear, headspace is still the same as when new.

[stubbicatt]

I have shot many 357 magnum loads thru my Uberti 1873. No issues. I understand the desire to second guess manufacturers and their engineers, and sometimes that is prudent. Ferinstance the mainspring on mine was strong enough to lever a Willy's stuck in a mud hole, so I replaced it with one that works just fine and reduces trigger pull to a sane level.

I just figure I'll shoot cast bullets at moderate velocities and enjoy the rifle for its intended purposes. I've had no issues with the rifle, FWIW.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I don't know that I like the idea of touching off a 44Mag in a toggle link, but... it's all about "bolt thrust"... and the .357 just doesn't initiate that much bolt thrust.

I know that I don't. The Italian proof testing is reliable, and overseen by international convention, but handloaders, knowingly or unknowingly, often find themselves doing things with the .44 Magnum which the proof houses didn't have in mind. With a revolver you are liable to feel sorry for yourself after a shot or two, but with a fairly heavy rifle
someone may go on hammering it very hard for a long time. Besides, with the things handloaders get up to, neither velocity, recoil nor flash are a perfect guide to peak pressure.

Just the same, I believe my doubts are illusory with well-conceived loads which actually are to SAAMI specifications. The original rifles were drop-forged, and I think their limitations may have been framed on the basis of the occasional weak forging. But investment casting, which I assume now to be used, is different. If it goes in there, and defects aren't visible on the surface, it is solid metal.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I still harbor prejudice about SAAMI loads, thinking here that 357 loads that produce "replica 1880s" velocities--900 FPS in wheelguns and 1250-1300 FPS in long guns should be their limit.

I know much a velocity is obtainable with the .45LC in revolvers, with 250gr. bullets and black powder. In fact there was a time when that was superior to any major firm's commercial smokeless load. But would I be right in thinking you should get a little more velocity and pressure with the black powder .44-40?

[9.3X62AL]

.......to assess their potential for use with SAAMI-spec 357 loads.

This is my actual "bottom line" for the potential purchase. I would like to achieve 1750-1800 FPS with 160 grain-class castings, and into the 1600 FPS realm for 180 grainers--both weights gas-checked. Little to no interest in jacketed bullet usage, just like all of my leverguns.

Can the Uberti '73 clones safely withstand a steady diet of what are actually old-line "High Velocity" load intensities, or should I hold out for a Win 92/Marlin 94 platform? I would like to get the same level of performance (trajectory flatness, mostly) from the 357 Mag levercritter that I get from my 25/20, 32/20, and 44 Magnum tube-feeders. The '73 repros appear to be more numerous and more readily available.

I have even considered one of the Ruger 77/357 bolters to fulfill this role, though their reported magazine issues are somewhat off-putting. I will go "outside the box" if necessary, but want a repeater--not a single-shot. TIA. I GREATLY appreciate all of the responses to date.

[9.3X62AL]

I know much a velocity is obtainable with the .45LC in revolvers, with 250gr. bullets and black powder. In fact there was a time when that was superior to any major firm's commercial smokeless load. But would I be right in thinking you should get a little more velocity and pressure with the black powder .44-40?

I haven't plumbed these depths in 44/40 WCF with higher-grade black powder, only Goex 3F Flaming Dirt in W-W cases with 1/16" of compression, SAECO #446 in 30/1 Pb/Sn, and CCI 350 primers. Both the weakness of mill-run Goex Black and the reduced capacity of modern drawn brass over older folded-head casings combine to really hamstring BP performance. The loads were accurate enough, at least as good as those fired with smokeless fuels, but velocities were somewhat docile--725 to 750 FPS in a Uberti clone SAA x 4-3/4" and a little short of 1100 FPS in my original '73 carbine. The lube capacity of the #446 with SPG avoided the fast foul-out I experienced with the carbine on my first BP cartridge series using a Lee 200 grain bullet, but at 15 rounds with both arms accuracy was starting to slip a bit. No cart-wheeling bullets this time, though. Conclusion--for my purposes, given the "big-picture" overview smokeless powders are a lot less work in 44/40 and actually yield better performance overall than BP given the quality of Goex Bore Fouler as far as velocity is concerned.

[Tatume]

As an aside, Winchester is currently producing the Model 1873 at the Miroku plant.

http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/rifles/model-1873/model-1873s-in-current-production.html

[ajjohns]

Mid way of page 2, gunsmithing tips and tricks. There's a thread about this and it tells the same article I read some years ago about the old tests done to the 1876 by Winchester. It's quite impressive! They must have dumped powder down the barrel and muzzle seated a boolit, even took one toggle link off the bolt. Nowhere's near what one would do nowadays.

[rbt50]

I have a uberti 1873 44-40 and I only shoot black powder in it.

[TXGunNut]

This is my actual "bottom line" for the potential purchase. I would like to achieve 1750-1800 FPS with 160 grain-class castings, and into the 1600 FPS realm for 180 grainers--both weights gas-checked. Little to no interest in jacketed bullet usage, just like all of my leverguns.

Can the Uberti '73 clones safely withstand a steady diet of what are actually old-line "High Velocity" load intensities, or should I hold out for a Win 92/Marlin 94 platform? I would like to get the same level of performance (trajectory flatness, mostly) from the 357 Mag levercritter that I get from my 25/20, 32/20, and 44 Magnum tube-feeders. The '73 repros appear to be more numerous and more readily available......(snip)



Tough choice. My shooting buddy has a beautiful Uberti in 38/357 I have a Rossi in 38/357. We both have several vintage Winchesters but these are our "fun guns". My Rossi loves my old leftover PPC 158 gr "stock gun" match ammo, not sure we've a load the Uberti likes yet but other projects have gotten in the way. I like my Rossi but that Uberti is one beautiful rifle!

[runfiverun]

I have been pretty dubious of the 73's in the magnum chambering's too.
so much so that I have passed on some good bargains I have seen in the past.
I haven't seen nor heard of any of them failing but I don't know if that's because they are used in cowboy shooting or if they just don't get shot a lot by the owners.

I would think that they should be able to handle a steady diet of factory 158gr 357's or 240gr 44 mags.
at least I should hope so they are after all built for those rounds.
I do know if I had one it would see plenty of range/rock/can time and probably make a day trip or two up hunting each year.

[Jake70]

This is an adjunct to my posts regarding Marlin 1894 and Winchester 1892 variants in 357 Magnum caliber, and their scarcity over the past few years.

I see that some importers are now featuring repro Model 1873 variants in 357 and 44 Magnum calibers. My initial thoughts were "NO FLIPPIN' WAY" would I consider running current SAAMI-spec 357 or 44 ammo (pressure rating in the 36K PSI range) in these toggle-link examples, and even stronger language would follow any thought of trying Doug Wesson-era 357 Mag loadings in any such platform with their 42K-43K PSI ratings. I don't fancy having a bolt assembly installed in my eye socket.

I still harbor prejudice about SAAMI loads, thinking here that 357 loads that produce "replica 1880s" velocities--900 FPS in wheelguns and 1250-1300 FPS in long guns should be their limit. I suspect that Uberti uses more modern metallurgy in their current '73's than what is present in my original '73 x 44/40, but I would like to hear from folks with actual experience with the rifles to assess their potential for use with SAAMI-spec 357 loads. TIA.

I don't have experience with the Ubertis, but I have run extremely hot 44 mag ammo though my Rossi 92. The metallurgy has definitely come a long ways. As long as you stay within SAAMI specs, you should not have an issue.

[35 Whelen]

I'm amazed that the subject of toggle link actions and their perceived weakness persists. I've never read of any empirical experience of failure of the action, only sparse 2nd and 3rd hand "stories", to which I give as much credence as I do to the existence of sasquatch. In fact the only documented information we have on the subject is from the Winchester archives in which they attempted to destroy one of their own toggle link Model '76's, which ultimately led to a blown cartridge head rather than a failed action.

Ironically, I was researching 38-40 data awhile back and in reading through an old Handloader found this regarding the universally perceived strong model 1892 action:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/20160306_143350_zpsombyn8yr.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/20160306_143350_zpsombyn8yr.jpg.html)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/20160306_143436_zpsxes9girt.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/20160306_143436_zpsxes9girt.jpg.html)

I don't recall the production year of the rifle, but seems it was made well after the advent of smokeless powder.

I keep thinking one of these days I'll load 100 or so full throttle .44 Magnum's and run them through my 1873 Uberti lever, just so I can say I did. I still contend no manufacturer would produce a rifle incapable of handling the cartridge for which it is chambered.

35W

[John Taylor]

The only toggle link action I have seen come through the shop that had been over loaded was a brass frame Henry in 45 Colt. It bent the back of the frame cause about .050" head space and very loose side covers. Toggle links were still in fine shape and a steel frame would have held up fine with the same load.

[Bent Ramrod]

It would also depend on how many full-bore loads one planned on shooting. The S&W model 29 was considered the ideal platform for the .44 Magnum for many years. But that was because most people seldom fired full-house .44 Magnum loads in them, generally shooting handloads at .44Spl to .44Spl +P intensity levels.

When the Pistol Silhouette guys got hold of the Model 29, things started to loosen, stretch, and go out of time. No catastrophic failures that I ever heard of, but the revolver was not up to that number of full-house loadings.

So I would opine that the jury is still out on Magnum chamberings for the '73 Winchester until somebody does a "10,000 Round Torture Test!" on one. Where are the Gun Magazines when you really need them?:-P

[35 Whelen]

Why would anyone do a torture test on a hunting rifle?? I've never seen or heard of a torture test on a '94 Winchester or any of the Marlins, and for good reason. I can't imagine anyone needing to know if the Uberti .44 Magnum will hold up for 10,000, or 1,000 for that matter. The owners of these rifles spend far, far more time talking about shooting said rifles than actually shooting them.

35W

[bob208]

the toggel link is a very strong action. think of the luger pistol and the maxim machine gun.

[9.3X62AL]

The owners of these rifles spend far, far more time talking about shooting said rifles than actually shooting them.

Leave me OUT of that assumption, please. My Miroku 92 in 44 Mag has close to 3500 rounds through it in its 5 years with me, and during 2 of those years it got zero firing due to illness and relocation. 90% have been 240-250 grain castings running 1650-1800 FPS, the remaining 10% at 44/40 1873-level duplicators in Mag brass. It has not seen and will not see 44 Special cases. The prospective 357 Magnum rifle will get similar treatment and usage.

[35 Whelen]

Hmm...having a range at my disposal (roughly 200' from my house, just the other side of my shop/reloading room) I shoot almost daily, mostly revolver; .44 Special and 45 Colt. Other than a few sessions just prior to hunting season, I see no need in firing full power loads on a regular basis as it serves no purpose other than to burn more powder. But, to each his own! I do shoot ALOT of full power loads through my 38-40's and 44-40, but this in only because 99% of that shooting is done at my 200 yd. target, for gits and shiggles. Were I just plinking/practicing, I'd reduce the loads and limit my shooting to 100 yds. But, I digress....

So, if you're going to burn 1,000+ rounds of full power loads per year in a .357 lever, you have two choices to my way of thinking:

1) You can buy a rifle whose design you already trust, such as the 1894 Marlin or one of the '92 designs. FYI, there are currently 10 of the Marlins on Gunbroker as well as 43 of the '92 Rossi's. In addition, Bud's Gun Shop has three different variations of the '92 Rossi .357's in stock. From the contexts of your posts, I'd say this would be your best choice given your skepticism towards the strength of the '73 design.
2) You can buy one of the '73's and let us know if/when it wears out.

Also, you stated "...some importers are now featuring repro Model 1873 variants in 357...". To my knowledge the .357 chambering is nothing especially new in the 1873. I have no idea when Uberti began chambering the 357 in their 1873's, but when I first dabbled in CAS 7 or 8 years ago, the little bunch with whom I shot had several 1873's in .357.

35W

[9.3X62AL]

I definitely missed things on Gunbroker, apparently. I did see a couple NIB Miroku/BACO/Winchester 92 Short Rifles on GB, and one of those or the carbine variant would be my first choices/no preference. Getting the sellers to ship into California will be the next hurdle to vault. Where I live, it is not as simple as seeing something on GB--sending funds--and having it shipped to an FFL. Much Kabuki Theater must commence first--be endured--and no false steps taken during the dance sequences.

[Bigslug]

the toggel link is a very strong action. think of the luger pistol and the maxim machine gun.

Not EXACTLY a parallel in that the whole works on those autoloaders travels backwards for a bit while pressure drops, and only THEN do they begin to unlock. . .

. . .BUT. . .

Possibly P.O. Ackley showed us the way. As validation of the reduced bolt thrust aspect of his "Ackley Improved" concept, he successfully and non-catastrophically test-fired a quite toasty Improved .30-30 in a '94 Winchester that had the vertical locking bolts removed. A straightwall pistol cartridge is essentially an Ackley chambering in that there is no body taper to cause additional rearward thrusting against the bolt - friction with the chamber walls will solve most of your problem.

Consider also the revolvers we commonly shoot these rounds in: firing force being generated off-center from the axle of rotation, and the whole works being anchored by a little bitty cylinder stop, hand, whatever passes for a center pin, and sometimes, a front crane lock.

Then there are the boomers that were chambered in the same (just bigger) 1876 action - .40-60, .45-60, .45-75, .50-95. . .

Old gun or new, complete, put-a-bolt-in-your-eye-socket failure is going to require - at a minimum - destruction of the bolt, the front toggle, probably the top of the lever, maybe the rear/top of the receiver (been awhile since I've had one apart - currently looking at Yahoo images for "Winchester toggle link"), and enough force to blow the hammer and mainspring back.

Trust the Cowboy shooters who have actually been there and done that, but. . . a modern steel 1873 with a straightwall case. . .I'm not inclined to be alarmed. Like anything else we do with handloads, "the answer" for best accuracy and most reliable performance is almost never the throttle-to-the-firewall, top-right-corner-of-the-envelope anyway. The SD figures on your chronograph will probably tell you to stop well before the gun does.

[9.3X62AL]

Duly noted, Bigslug. Check for PM.

[Mk42gunner]

I don't think a modern copy of the 1873 will necessarily blow to pieces; but I'm not all that convinced the rifle would like a steady diet of full house loads either. Unless I am very wrong, Winchester did not recommend using their own high velocity loads in the 73's, even the ones that were made well into the smokeless era. Maybe that was in deference to the older iron framed guns, maybe not.

I am not really all that familiar with the 1873 action; but doesn't it require a fairly close tolerance on OAL due to the magazine's cartridge stop, or the lifter design?

Robert

[9.3X62AL]

I am not really all that familiar with the 1873 action; but doesn't it require a fairly close tolerance on OAL due to the magazine's cartridge stop, or the lifter design?

Robert

An over-length round will complicate your sitch most comprehensively. Don't ask how I know this.

[35 Whelen]

I am not really all that familiar with the 1873 action; but doesn't it require a fairly close tolerance on OAL due to the magazine's cartridge stop, or the lifter design?

Robert

O.A.L. is limited to a maximum of 1.6" but you can get by with somewhat less. In my '73 .44 Special I ran 246 gr. SWC's as well as 170 gr. RNFP's which were quite a bit shorter. The brass carrier is designed in such a way to deal with o.a.l.'s a little short of 1.6".

35W

[9.3X62AL]

O.A.L. is limited to a maximum of 1.6" but you can get by with somewhat less. In my '73 .44 Special I ran 246 gr. SWC's as well as 170 gr. RNFP's which were quite a bit shorter. The brass carrier is designed in such a way to deal with o.a.l.'s a little short of 1.6".

35W

ALL of my reloads for the '73 get length-checked with calipers after completion. I am a BIG believer in Murphy's Law--that it gets no plea bargains--and that Murphy is at heart naively optimistic.

[jimb16]

I agree. O'Toole's commentary on Murphy is that Murphy was an optimist! Even when things can't go wrong, they will still find a way!

[35 Whelen]

The 170 gr. RNFP's were loaded for CAS and were run hard and fast with nary a jam. And actually the SWC's were used until I got the RNFP mould, again no problems.
If a fella wants to check all of his cartridges for length, I'm all for him. But if your die is set properly there's no reason for o.a.l. to vary at all.

35W

[9.3X62AL]

But if your die is set properly there's no reason for o.a.l. to vary at all.

On some level, I agree. But the 2-3 minutes it takes to check-fit 50 rounds is a walk-over for me. I do this with all of my "serious" reloads (hunting ammo). For range and practice fodder, I trust die settings.

[Griff]

Why would anyone do a torture test on a hunting rifle?? I've never seen or heard of a torture test on a '94 Winchester or any of the Marlins, and for good reason. I can't imagine anyone needing to know if the Uberti .44 Magnum will hold up for 10,000, or 1,000 for that matter. The owners of these rifles spend far, far more time talking about shooting said rifles than actually shooting them.

35WIIRC, the folks that developed the 375 Win shot their loads in Marlin 336 and Winchester mdl 94 until they failed. The 336 failed just 15 rounds before the Winchester 94. I Don't recall the number of rounds involved... but it was not paltry... nor was it more than one would expect to fire during one's lifetime in owning a hunting rifle. This why Winchester went the "Big Bore route. Marlin was more audacious, leaving their 336 the same. I don't shoot full-house 375 Win loads in my Marlin any more.

[9.3X62AL]

Interesting info, Griff--many thanks.

I think I will "hold out" for either a WinOku 92 or a Marlin 94......I just don't get a warm, comfy feeling with the 357 Mag in a '73 repro. Too many horror stories with the Ruger 77/357 variants, too--mostly magazine issues. As I dodder my way toward decrepitude, my time is too precious to spend it on completion of construction on already-expensive toys. BLEEP that.

[ironhead7544]

I dont think there is a problem with the 357 Magnum 1873 rifles as far as strength. If they were blowing up, it would be well known.

Uberti makes a 44 Magnum version of the 1873 that has been upgraded somehow to handle the pressure. Not much info on the 44 Magnum out there in this rifle but they are still making it. The 1873 in 44 Magnum is an ideal combination of antique styling and modern practical power. JMHO.