Fastest quickdraw shooter-- Bob Munden

[tazman]

I just watched a fascinating video of Bob Munden handling his six shooter on video and in slow motion. It was incredible!
He handles a single action revolver faster than anyone I have ever seen.
He is also incredibly accurate at the same time.
Link is here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GflTkHaigo

[Traffer]

If you like him you should check out Jerry Miculek. Jerry is a competition shooter as opposed to Munden who is a trick shot artist and quick draw artist. But if you watch Jerry shoot and reload a revolver and are not impressed you must not be alive.

[Skipper]

I just watched a fascinating video of Bob Munden handling his six shooter on video and in slow motion. It was incredible!
He handles a single action revolver faster than anyone I have ever seen.
He is also incredibly accurate at the same time.
Link is here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GflTkHaigo

Bob passed away in 2012

[tazman]

If you like him you should check out Jerry Miculek. Jerry is a competition shooter as opposed to Munden who is a trick shot artist and quick draw artist. But if you watch Jerry shoot and reload a revolver and are not impressed you must not be alive.

I have watched Jerry many times on YouTube. He is nothing short of amazing. I own the S&W 929 like the one he used to shoot 16 shots in 4 seconds. I can't even reload the thing as quickly as he shoots 16 shots and reloads.
I will grant that Munden's skill set seems to be very narrow, but in his niche, his skill is outstanding.

[osteodoc08]

Miculek is something else. I think we will find out later he is part machine.

[ReloaderFred]

Bob Munden was also an excellent shot with a pistol, besides being the fastest ever recorded to date. His wife, Becky, is no slouch, either. I talked to both of them at several SHOT Shows, and we had a mutual friend. I also talked to him at the last End of Trail that he put on a demonstration at. Once you got through the stage bravado, he was a nice guy, and Becky is the salt of the earth.

There are videos on-line of some of his shooting exploits besides the fast draw. I've seen him split a playing card by shooting the edge, and shoot an aspirin in the air (using a solid bullet, not a shotshell).

His last few years were tough on him, and the last time I saw him at the SHOT Show, he was riding a Hov-a-round, and looked like death warmed over. He died on the trip home from Missoula to Butte, where he and Becky lived, after a visit with his cardiologist. Becky was driving, and that had to be hard on her.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[OS OK]

I've enjoyed watching these fellas for years, esp. Jerry...but, I cringe when I hear of someone wanting to learn 'fast draw' as I think it is a very good way to have an accident. Just leave it to the pro's who have spent most of their lives perfecting these skills. Spend your time perfecting the art of 'hitting the bullseye' and leave this skill to the few.
We do not allow any such antics on any of our private ranges around here.
There is a very good example on You Tube of a fella making a fast draw and shooting himself through the thigh. I'm sure most everyone is aware of this video by now, but if you are not...Search the phrase..."I just shot myself"...I hesitate to include the link as it has strong language...It has an even 'stronger message' though.

OS OK

[bubba.50]

in the late 50's or early 60's I saw Bill Jordan on the "What's My Line" TV show. when the little light came on he processed the info from the timer, drew his double-action revolver, fired & busted the attached balloon in less that 1/4 second.

and on one of our local channels we had Stan Sweet as a weatherman. he was a several time national quickdraw champion & occasionally would give a demonstration if it was a slow news day.

both were very awesome but, as OS OK says, I'll leave the drivin' to the pros.

[osteodoc08]

.
There is a very good example on You Tube of a fella making a fast draw and shooting himself through the thigh. I'm sure most everyone is aware of this video by now, but if you are not...Search the phrase..."I just shot myself"...I hesitate to include the link as it has strong language...It has an even 'stronger message' though.

OS OK

Is this the one where he is standing in front of a "pretend bad guy" target and tries to draw and shoot the "bad guy"?

I hate it for him but that was just plain stoopid.

[OS OK]

Is this the one where he is standing in front of a "pretend bad guy" target and tries to draw and shoot the "bad guy"?

I hate it for him but that was just plain stoopid.

Yep...that's the guy. Stupid is as stupid does. I wonder what he was thinking? Was he thinking?

Bubba, I have old VHS tapes of shooting exhibitions from the early 50's...some amazing shotgun work. One fella throwing, I think 6 clay birds and using a shotgun to 'smoke' all of them before they reach the deck.

[cainttype]

I can't help but believe Bob's record fast-draw time to stop the clock will never be beaten. At 0.0175 seconds (that's no misprint, 1.75 ONE-HUNDRETHS of a second) you could say that his reaction time, draw, and clock-stoppage was 7 times faster than a human blinks, which some say averages about 0.15 seconds (15 one-hundreths).

The "Stan Lee's 'Super-Humans'" series featured Bob at 71 years old, in the 2nd episode I think... With motion sensors attached to his hand, the scientist controlling the test said Munden's draw (with a SSA in hand) was faster than the strike of a rattlesnake. He knew that because he'd previously tested rattlers, too.
The segment ended with Bob drawing and shooting two small balloons which had been placed about 6 feet apart. The shots sounded like a single discharge when both balloons burst seemingly simultaneously.
Slowing the high-speed film down actually captured the muzzle-blast/bursting balloons in consecutive frames. It's the only way to actually SEE what Munden was capable of... at 71 years old!

I doubt that there will ever be any serious challenge to Bob's records. I'm just glad we have video and scientific evidence that a man was actually able to accomplish such things.

RIP Bob.

[Piedmont]

I saw on youtube what cainttype is referring to with the two shots and had trouble comprehending that you only heard ONE shot but he fired two. That's fast.

[tazman]

If you watch the video closely during the 2 balloons sequence, you will see just one flash. He was working the action so fast that the high speed camera can barely tell that there is a separate flash for the 2nd shot.
Even in super slow, frame at a time motion, there is only one frame between the flashes of the 2 shots.

[pmer]

Does anybody know what he did to his revolvers to help them shoot that fast?

[Tom W.]

Practiced with them???:kidding:

[dverna]

I had two SAA that Munden had tuned. Both were the slickest SAA's I have ever handled and like a fool I sold them both.

[cainttype]

Bob was that fast. The question was if a revolver could withstand Bob's speed.
Bob's SSAs were modified by opening the frames for extra large cylinder bolts and matching recesses in the cylinders. The strength required to withstand the force generated by the speed of the cylinder's rotation was beyond the Colt's original design. It was said that Bob could ruin a brand new SSA with a single draw if those modifications weren't made before he used it.
The Colt SSA has stood the test of time for well over a hundred years, even withstanding the likes of legendary gunmen and John Wayne's movies, but it was too fragile for Mr. Munden's speed.

Sounds crazy, kinda hard to believe?
That's how special Bob Munden was.

[cainttype]

It's also possible that Bob's SSAs may have been the fastest firing single-barrelled firearms ever seen, faster than the Uzi, faster than the MACs...
Bob could/would open-hand fan his Peacemaker, each finger throwing the hammer back for 1 more round... The result was 1 big boom sending every round in the gun downrange in an instant.
If you aren't familiar with Bob Munden (and his amazing skills), do yourself a favor, get familiar with Bob Munden. :)

[Skinny]

I used to watch(tv mostly, live a handful of times) him do a whole lot of unbelievable stuff with those single action revolvers. But the neatest thing I saw him do did not include the blazing speed he was known for.
I saw him pop balloons at 400yds with .45Long ctg.! Only took two misses to zero in. Once he had a point of ref on them, he busted 7 of them in a row! It looked like he was aiming for the moon!

[waksupi]

Does anybody know what he did to his revolvers to help them shoot that fast?

Just well tuned and smoothed up. I shot one of his this past February. Very accurate single action, was keeping the majority of shots on target at 100 yards. I also got to shoot Captain Jack Crawford's Sharps carbine that same day.

[dragon813gt]

I've enjoyed watching these fellas for years, esp. Jerry...but, I cringe when I hear of someone wanting to learn 'fast draw' as I think it is a very good way to have an accident. Just leave it to the pro's who have spent most of their lives perfecting these skills. Spend your time perfecting the art of 'hitting the bullseye' and leave this skill to the few.
We do not allow any such antics on any of our private ranges around here.


So out of curiosity I have a question. How does one become a "pro" if he can't practice. I won't deny that this type of fast draw is dangerous. But there will never be another Bob Munden if there is no place to practice. Not everyone can shoot on their own property or has access to BLM land. I am one such person.

I do not practice drawing and shooting while others are at the range. But I did on Monday when I was the only one there. It wasn't a fast draw w/ a SAA and point shooting. But I was definitely drawing as fast as I could and trying to get two shots in the X ring. If you don't practice you will never improve. Oh yeah, I was doing this w/ a G20 :p

[Mk42gunner]

I used to watch Bob Munden shoot on TV, very impressive.

As for anyone that wants to practice quick draw: don' try to be fast, try to be smooth. Also, don't start out with a loaded gun, start practicing with snap caps or an empty gun and dry fire. Only after you have the basics down start slow smooth draws from the holster.

If you have smoothness, speed will come on its own.

If you try to start running flat out, you just may find out what a field dressing feels like and what the inside of an ambulance looks like.

Robert

[CastingFool]

I watched a Bob Munden video where he was shooting balloons at 200 yds with a 1911. Then, he moved back to 300 yds. He didn't miss at either distance.

[69daytona]

I had Bob Munden do his magic on two of my SAA, I broke the hammer on my 1913 colt long flute and gave him a call, he talked with me for an hour on what I wanted done and just shooting and and a lot of his life philosophy. Very nice man. Was only going to have him fix the Colt but sent him a cimarron too.
He replaced the original hammer with one of his design and said it will never break again, slicked up both guns and sent back all the original parts.
the two SAAs he did are the best shooting single actions I have ever shot.
He did two tunes, one for every type of competition shooting but quick draw and one just for quick draw, he said he added a lot of stiffness to the SAA frames so they will handle his quick draw style, he told me he has broke the frames on stock colts before he learned what he had to do to make them strong enough to handle his quick draw.
wish I would have had one done for that at the time.

[Nick Quick]

As a Fast Draw shooter all I can say is that before forming an opinion about any Fast Draw shooter capabilities, records and contest winning I suggest to document yourself and read FACTS and not TV shows and personal claims. I consider is my duty to draw a line between myths and facts as whatever you gents believe now about Bob Munden it is mostly fabricated and there is no prove of any claim Bob Munden has ever made.
I consider a slap on the face of countless Fast Draw shooters what Bob Munden had claimed over the years and I personally cannot let the truth go unsaid just because his fame is bigger than reality.
Even in his biography is stated that he started shooting in '59 and in '69 he and his family hit the road doing shows. So in 10 years of Fast Draw he claims he won 3500 contests and what not. Now you do the math and figure it for yourself.
He also claims he held "all 18 world records in the sport". Bob Munden never held any record of any kind in any Fast Draw Association. Please check the facts before deciding what to believe. Check on any Fast Draw Association the list of records and titles and PLEASE let me know if you find in one single place Bob Munden's name.
I don't hate and I have nothing against anyone, is just a matter of honor and respect for my fellow shooters, for the veterans of the sport and for the real champions and the real world record holders.
On his website are pictures presenting WFDA contests in 1964 when actually WFDA was formed in 1976 when Mid-Western and Western Fast Draw Association merged. Again, no hard feelings but things has to be set straight. Tarnishing the names and results of so many great shooters this sport ever had is something I personally will not accept so this is the reason of my post. I hesitated as I knew many of you are misinformed and will not take well what I will say as you already formed an opinion , but I only stand for the truth, ugly or not.
There are many world records in this sport and they have been broken over and over in over 60 years of sport by many shooters, but never by any shooter named Bob Munden. I apologize for the news but this is the truth.
In the years of him competing he was known as a fierce competitor and a fast shooter but that was not enough. Others were better and their names are written on the books forever. Not many are alive so I have to speak for them. I won't start rounding up names as there are way to many to write them all and if I miss some of them I would be ashamed. Truth is Bob Munden was just a fast shooter among other fast shooters. His fame is coming from aggressive self promotion and due to his extensive touring and shooting demos. The more you tour the more people hear about you, is that simple. Please, let's keep the facts straight and not enlarge a myth already larger than it should be.
If any of you wants to talk to people who met, shot and befriend Bob Munden please let me know and I will put you in contact with direct sources of information and not TV shows and you tube videos.

Now just to clarify few misunderstanding about this sport. In Fast Draw live ammo is not allowed due to a lot of accidents in the late '50's with people blowing their knee caps and crippling themselves shooting .45's in their legs. Fast Draw ONLY uses wax bullets and fully loaded blanks.
Also, one can call a Fast Draw attempt ONLY when a given signal determine the drawing sequence. No light = NO Fast Draw. No light = Exhibition shooting. Fast Draw is reacting at a light signal. One cannot draw whenever he feels like comfortable and call that Fast Draw. That is either exhibition shooting or fun in the back yard. If you don't see a light connected to an electronic timer then you don't watch Fast Draw.
The fastest time ever recorded in any Fast Draw association counts 0.208 seconds and belong to a gentleman out of Arizona named Ernie Hill (famous holster maker and shooter). Period. Anything else you've heard is just a legend. PLEASE read facts! Do not let yourself dragged into the TV circus and make believe all the things presented there.
Now to better understand what those times are, I will explain few facts. The time -whatever it is- is formed from two components: the reaction to the light and the draw itself. The reaction to the light is the longest part. It varies from individual to individual. It is between 0.130 and 0.200 depending on the experience level and training. Knowing Ernie's reaction and thinking that was done when he was fairly young I would say that his reaction on that particular shot was around 0.130. So the math tells us that the draw itself was 0.078 seconds. The draw was twice as fast as the reaction. That's why I put emphasis on the fact that it has to be a light signal, otherwise will be just the draw, (speed of hands). That's why Bob Munden came up with those "unbelievable" times.
And if the time seen on Discovery amazed you, let me tell you that 0.170 speed of hands is not something a Fast Draw shooter would be proud with. But 99.99% of people don't know the difference. Hence the WOW factor.

Again, my post is not a hateful one, nor a bashing rant against Bob Munden. He is deceased but so are the many other shooters who were the real record holders, contests winners and real champions. So one shooter who's alive felt like clarifying few things. There are so many other things to me said but I will stop here for now.
Bob Munden was a great exhibition shooter, a fast Fast Draw shooter, a Fast Draw promoter and an skilled marksman. I will always give him what belongs to him. Few things had to be mentioned just to set the facts straight.

If you want more just ask I'll do my best to explain and clarify things.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

People have been drawing pistols quickly since the days of the wheel-lock, but Ed McGivern was the man who started this art and science with timing equipment, and showed them all where they were going. Miculek broke several of his records, but failed with at least one, made when McGivern was 57, and probably experiencing the beginnings of the arthritis which ended his exhibition shooting career. For comparison, one of the discoveries of the Second but not First World War was that a fighter pilot is dangerously handicapped at thirty.

McGivern thought the "modern" double-actions of his day much inferior to single-actions, didn't much like fanning the hammer, and didn't think a Smith and Wesson out of the box needed much improvement. One thing I rather admire is that he said any of the great Western gunmen could have killed him, because shooting a human being takes something else, and frequently something nasty.

Their exploits should remind us that none of the gunfights of the old West were won by seeing and outpacing an enemy who started to draw. The human reaction time is improvable with practice in a familiar activity. But the difference between the greatest gunman who ever lived (whoever he was) and someone who is just passably good, is less than reaction time, even theirs. Gunfights were won by the willingness to Pearl Harbor the other man, possibly thought not always by an instinct, like Wild Bill's in "Deadwood", for "He meant me harm."

[cainttype]

Nick Quick, thank you for a very informative post.
Like most handgunners, I have almost no real interest in pursuing fast-draw as a hobby/sport so the only information I ever had relating to Bob was directly gleaned from magazines, television, & video (I don't remember ever checking the Guiness Book, but might have).

If Munden's reputation and persona are so vastly exaggerated due to his own propaganda efforts, then he'd have to almost be the "World Champion of Self-Promotion"... That's pretty impressive on it's own merit. lol
We should have run him for President when we had the chance! :)

[MT Gianni]

Ed McGivern also spent a lot of time with the law enforcement community in educating what it takes to get a gun out faster and react in a response to violence. So did Bill Jordan. The axiom of those that can do, those that can't teach has no application here.

[Potsy]

Odd I just saw this thread. Dad and I were just talking about him the other day.
We saw Bob Munden shoot back about winter of '88 at a gun show in Nashville. He looked pretty fast to a 14 year old kid.
Actually, it didn't. You couldn't even see it. You just heard the shots.
I enjoyed watching his stunts on American Shooter years later.
I think he may be the reason I never really tried the fast draw thing (though I've tried to "draw faster"). I'm just not that quick and I've always known it.
As for the inherent safety risks involved with fast draw shooting, there's a reason we have to put directions on shampoo bottles in this country and Darwin don't play favorites.........

[45 Dragoon]

Nick,That's pretty much what I've heard from folks that had first hand experience with him. You say it "nicer" than some.
The things I do in my own service are not things done "just by Munden" but things that all serious fast draw / fanners have done to their SAs. The main difference in my service is that the timing is set to "correct" timing instead of a "fanner" type timing. This gives the guns a "built like a tank" life but in a normal shooting environment. This is also why the first time folks had ever seen a cap gun "fanned" (really fanned) was after these things were done to it.


Thanks.


Mike

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Ed McGivern also spent a lot of time with the law enforcement community in educating what it takes to get a gun out faster and react in a response to violence. So did Bill Jordan. The axiom of those that can do, those that can't teach has no application here.
Yes indeed, they were interested in fast drawing within the limits of what is practical, and maybe, a time or two in a lifetime, a life-saver. Metal bullets and so forth. I don't remember whether McGivern says so in his book, but I have heard that except for his work with law enforcement officers, he would never countenance the use of man-shaped target. But then he would.

[44man]

Both Bob and Jerry will never be beat. There are still a few but a moment of silence for Bob with tears is needed.

[JSH]

He put on a small show at my club the year before he passed. It was a hot day and he was miserable. Brought him back to the trap house and visited with him a fair bit in the AC. He and the wife, both good down to earth people. My short visit and hand shake was a privilege. I had plans of getting a USFA sent to him and have it worked over, then USFA went out.

[contender1]

I could have written reloaderFred's post.
I too had the pleasure of meeting Bob several times and attending one of his exhibitions.
One thing that impressed me as much as his speed was his live, outdoor shows would include live, normal powered ammo. Not reduced ammo, or shotshells or other such tricks. I too saw him at the last SHOT show he attended & where he was "riding" the show. We were at the Hornady booth catching up, and I asked him for another picture. He obliged me, by standing & letting a friend snap the picture.
He was a nice gentleman & Becky is still just as sweet as always.

And Jerry,,,, I'm fortunate enough to know him as well as Kay & Lena. I count them as good honest, down to earth folks as well. Jerry's skills are beyond amazing too. I have been his RO many times & seen just how good he really is. Plus, he's an "all around" shooter with more than just a DA revolver. Bob was the same way. He could shoot many different types of firearms exceptionally well. A true pair of shooters!

[Geezer in NH]

For the leave it to the pro's folks

Note the Pro's got that way by Practice there is only one way to become one and that is PRACTICE.

Do it correctly and be safe but leave it so when the Pro's die so does the sport??

[cainttype]

Bob was a phenom, make no mistake about it.
Regardless of any controversy concerning his achievements, I've never seen any film/video evidence more impressive than Bob demonstrating his skills with a sixgun.
It's too bad so much of his earlier years aren't better documented, with easy to find video clips.

[kenyerian]

So where does Thell Reed rank in this post?

[Battis]

I, for one, would not have stood in front of Bob Munden with a gun on my hip, a gun on his hip, and tell him that he was a fraud. Nor would I have done it with James Hickok. Munden might not have been a man killer as Hickok was, but I'm betting that his reaction would have been reflexive if someone had drawn on him, in the same way that your foot automatically stomps on the brake if a kid runs out in front of you, or a hockey goalie's glove snatches a puck out of the air. Throw a punch at a Black Belt, or any experienced fighter, and watch his reflexive actions/reactions - there's little conscious thought involved in reflex.
Bob Munden was s showman, and a very good one. But he had the "goods" to back it up, records or no records. Watching his videos, any shooter has to ask himself, "How would I compare to him?"

[44man]

Watching Bob always showed he used boolits but some use shot. To see Jerry break a balloon at 1000 yards with a nine is out of this world. I will not say bad. Bob was also a gunsmith beyond anything.
Bob shot a lot and if you watch him, his hands are black from powder. He ran more shots a day then we do in years.
I prefer to honor the man and all others that do the impossible. To denigrate a man if you can't do it is insane.

[kenyerian]

Here is an interesting link on Fast Draw Competition .http://americanhandgunner.com/fast-draw-competition-it-had-to-be/
As a teenager, Thell shot with Jeff Cooper in Big Bear Lake, California, with a group including Jack Weaver, Eldon Carl and Ray Chapman. They shot live ammunition, with Thell often using the Colt SAA. He was the youngest but also the fastest. His Fast Draw was mostly Quick Draw; Charles McDonald Heard defined the former as being used with wax bullets or blanks, while the latter was with live ammunition.
Thell traveled on tour with Gene Autry in the 1960’s, challenging all comers to put up a Colt SAA against his money offer. At the end of the tour he had nearly a dozen brand-new Colts. Andy Anderson designed Thell’s first forward-slanted Gunfighter rig. Elmer Keith said Thell was the fastest he ever saw, calling him “The All-Time Wizard With A Sixgun.”

[44man]

That he was and he taught all the western shooters in movies. But fast draw back then was not true. It is a more modern thing. Cowboys never did it. Lawmen were just better shots. Calm and aim better without fear. Thell might have been the first and best. Fast draw did not exist in the 1800's.

[kenyerian]

I've enjoyed following all of the great shooters since the mid 60's. Dad subscribed to a lot of magazines back then and the articles on Thell Reed was the reason a lot of my friends and I got into revolvers. And yes, one of my friends did manage to shoot himself drawing. Thankfully it was a minor wound. This post has brought back many memories of the good times we had.

[kelbro]

I can confirm that the picture tube in a console Magnavox color TV will not stop a .45 Colt wax boolit. That stunt made for a danged long winter.

[Nick Quick]

Wax bullets are the least dangerous bullets, yet you don't want to get shot with one of them .45LC propelled by a 209 primer. No powder, just the primer and the wax. It hurts bad I can tell you that, fortunately only for the first 5 minutes. The sucker flies with over 600fps and the wound look quite ugly.
The nastiest is a .38 bullet propelled by a .22 blank. That will go inside the flesh unlike the big brother .45 who will only do a surface damage. The 22/38 goes with well over 1200 fps and hurts in hard to describe way.
But with all these, if I would have to chose what to be shot with between a wax bullet and a black powder blank I will take the wax without even thinking. I won't give any public details on wounds by blanks.

[EDK]

Bill Ogelsby is a d*** good shooter to watch. (He's a stocky little rascal, like Bob Munden and Ed McGivern.) He used a VAQUERO and five hits on a steel plate when you'd have sworn to four rounds going off.
Jerry Miculek is another great shooter to watch. He doesn't play favorites either. He was pretty eloquent about my current favorite, the GLOCK 41, on YouTube.

[Murphy]

I stand with Nick Quick in regards to Ernie Hill being the record holder. Many, have never heard of Ernie. I knew more about his holsters back in the 80's & 90's than his quick draw abilities. I was a bit surprised like many others to find out Bob Munden was not the fastest on record. As Nick pointed out, get the facts. Bob was a heck of a guy and an awesome shooter no doubt. But as others have said, he was great as self promotion as well. Nothing wrong with that and he did make a living doing so.

Ed McGivern has been overlooked and unheard of by many as well. I purchased his book "Fast & Fancy Revolver Shooting" in the late 70's. Within two weeks, I managed to put 44 out of 50 rounds on a playing card at 10 feet following Mr. McGiverns hip shooting instructions. Ed was never timed on his draw, but one has to wonder if he wasn't in all reality the fastest? Guess we'll never know the answer to that.

Jerry Miculek is undoubtedly an amazing individual. However, if it were possible to rise the dead and bring Ed McGivern back to watch Jerry empty a sixgun with blinding speed? I'm sure Ed would congratulate him on his excellent shooting and then ask a simple question "Why are you using two hands sir?"

Murphy

[Hickory]

Miculek is something else. I think we will find out later he is part machine.

Not even the Terminator could shoot that fast or good.

[Blackwater]

Munden's guns also had somewhat stronger springs powering the hammer, didn't he?

All I know is that, if Munden didn't compete in the fast draw assn's matches, he's STILL the fastest man alive with a gun, period. There's a mood afield these days, that taking down those who excel adds to one's "creds." I've never thought that way. Munden EARNED his reputation, and whether he held any assn's records or not, he surely demonstrated that he actually WAS the fastest man alive.

One thing many don't realize is how strong he had to be to do what he did, AND flexible and conditioned to boot. If you watch him shooting a .45 auto with full facory loads, he manages to keep the recoil down quite handily. Let's see anyone here do that who wants to take anything away from Munden! I dare you! And that's all I've got to say about that.

Mk 42 guner was right, too. When I decided to get into law enforcement (and later got into other fields instead), I figured it'd behoove me to get to be as fast as I could. This was difficult because I knew darned well the risks of a single "bad move" in a fast draw. I was also using standard type holsters and not ones specially designed to come out as fast as possible. All this added to my slowness. The fear of a bad shot more than anything. As Dirty Harry said, "A man's got to know his limitations." And as Mk 42 said, I practiced with an empty gun until I was SURE I wasn't going to shoot myself. It took a long time - too long, but at least I was consistently working toward a decent and achievable goal, and getting "better" slowly. Finally, I tried live rounds, and usually at least 2 targets, down on the lower 40, usually turning at least 90 degrees, drawing and firing in one smooth motion, and moving to and engaging the 2nd target ASAP. This got to be really instructive, and taught me a lot of appreciation for just how to practice and how to get better as quickly as humanly possible. And Mk 42 has it right - go for the smoothness, and the speed will develop. I never had to draw quickly, since I went into a LE related field, but a time or two, knowing I could, let me handle a situation more easily and smoothly than would otherwise have been possible if I didn't KNOW what I could have done. And I was considerably faster than any of the bad guys I ever dealt with, but never fast enough if they already had a gun in hand. Bill Jordan was THAT fast, and regularly proved it in his "dog and pony shows," as he called them. Time and time again, he'd give a person a SA loaded with blanks and cocked, and he'd stand with hands by his side, and draw from a concealed conventional open top holster on his side, from beneath his sport coat, and fire, before the person holding the SA on him could simply pull the trigger.

There's a "secret" to that. He only had to make up his mind WHEN to draw, and the person holding the SA had to wait for him to move to react. So he had the advantage of not having to factor in reaction time, since it was his action that initiated the string of events. The SA holder had to perceive and react, and THEN pull the trigger. All Jordan had to do was draw and fire. But even so, I doubt there is anyone here (certainly not ME!) who'd want to try that particular stunt. You DO still have to be AWFULLY fast! And Jordan was. And he used it to deadly effect a time or two. In one case, he put on a demonstration inside a courtroom, or showed a video of him doing so, to convince a jury who was deciding a case of a deputy or sheriff friend of his, that the sheriff actually COULD have drawn and fired "against the drop" and killed the man he was on trial for having killed. The whole trial boiled down to charges having been pressed because nobody believed the Sheriff had drawn and fired against the drop, and Jordan's demonstration won the case for his friend. When asked on the stand if he knew the Sheriff and had seen him draw, and if so, how fast was he, Jordan said, "At least as fast as I am and maybe just a shade faster." And he said it very matter of factly.

In our world of today, many discount the acts of others that they can't duplicate. This is foolhardy! Just because I can't do what I've seen some others do is NO reason to try to take away from their achievements! Never will be. Yet, many seem to take joy in this. So did ancient Rome like to destroy their heroes. It didn't end well for Rome, and won't for us if we keep it up. It's fine to question incredible feats, and ask for proof, but once it's delivered, continuing to detract from great achievements is .... well, it's not a good thing. That's my view of it, anyway.

[Drm50]

Amen to that. On the subject of McGivern's records, Jerry Miculek himself doesn't compare his
records against McGiverns, because of the difference in guns, timers, ect. There was a lot of
difference over the the time between Edd & Jerry. All these guys earned their spot in history,
why would a person want to tear them down. I was never interested in fast draw, but if you
practice as outlined in Fast& Fancy, you will be able to do a lot of the "tricks" of E.McGivern.

[44man]

Consider the weight of a .45 from the holster. To do what they did would make you bleed to death.
Years of practice and pain, why would you denigrate anyone. Only if you can do better and it is sure not me.
McGivern was a frail and sick man and through work and pain, he overcame it. Maybe a few words of prayer would be best. We lost Bob too early.
Why are some so mean to say bad?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Wax bullets are the least dangerous bullets, yet you don't want to get shot with one of them .45LC propelled by a 209 primer. No powder, just the primer and the wax. It hurts bad I can tell you that, fortunately only for the first 5 minutes. The sucker flies with over 600fps and the wound look quite ugly.
The nastiest is a .38 bullet propelled by a .22 blank. That will go inside the flesh unlike the big brother .45 who will only do a surface damage. The 22/38 goes with well over 1200 fps and hurts in hard to describe way.
But with all these, if I would have to chose what to be shot with between a wax bullet and a black powder blank I will take the wax without even thinking. I won't give any public details on wounds by blanks.

Well I'll give some. Surgeon-Col. La Garde (of the Chicago stockyard and cadaver trials which resulted in the adoption of the .45ACP, conducted the following experimental program:

"In some experiments on animals we succeeded in communicating tetanus in 69.5 per cent, of the cases by methods as follows: The experiments were conducted with the .22-caliber toy-pistol. An artificial tetanus earth was made by mixing 1 quart of sterile earth with one agar-agar culture, after the toxin had been destroyed by heating at 65° C. for five minutes. The animals were shot in the fleshy part of the thigh.

(a) Transmission by Infecting Black Gunpowder. — One-half grain of tetanus earth was mixed with the powder in each of three blank cartridges with which three white rats were shot at a distance of 2 inches. Two out of the three animals developed tetanus and died on the fifth and sixth days respectively.

(b) Transmission by Infecting the Wads with Tetanus Earth. — Four wads were infected on their outer surface with a half grain each of the earth. Four rats were shot into as stated above. Two died immediately from shock and the other two succumbed to tetanus five days later.

(c) Transmission by Placing the Earth on the Projectile. — The latter were infected by placing the earth in three grooves running parallel with the long axis of the bullet. Three rabbits shot died with typical symptoms of tetanus on the sixth, seventh and eighth days respectively. Out of three guinea-pigs shot in the same way two died on the sixth and seventh days.

(d) Transmission by Placing i Grain of the Tetanus Earth in the Barrel. — Three white rats were shot at 2 inches with blank cartridges. Two of the animals died from tetanus on the fifth day.

(e) Transmission by Shooitng a Blank Cartridge Through a
Piece of Gauze Previously Contaminated with the Tetanus Earth, the Gauze lying Against the Part. — Out of five white rats shot in this manner three succumbed to tetanus on the fifth and sixth days.

(f) Transmission by Placing 1 Grain of Wet Tetanus Earth on the skin of the Animal at the Point Penetrated by the Charge. — Four animals were thus shot with blank cartridges, two dying of typical tetanus on the fifth and sixth days.

(g) Transmission by Infecting Smokeless Powder. — The powder was infected as stated under (a). Three white rats were shot at a range of 2 inches. One of them developed tetanus on the fifth day and eventually recovered. The other two were negative.

The control animals, shot in the above manner without the use of tetanus earth, gave negative results without exception. As stated already the fatality from tetanus attending these experiments aggregates 69.5 per cent. It is fair to assume that this percentage would have been greater with a pure culture of tetanus. The artificial tetanus earth was used to simulate the actual conditions under which tetanus infections usually occur.

We also found that in those cases where the shots were delivered at contact or thereabouts, exhibiting burning or scorching from the ignition of the black powder, the development of tetanus was almost invariable, showing that the coagulation necrosis following burn augments the tendency to the development of tetanus infection.

From the foregoing we felt justified in attributing the occurrence of tetanus in toy-pistol wounds to the presence of infection in the ontaminated dust of the street, which found lodgement on the clothing, hands, etc., of those who engage in the use of toy-pistols and pyrotechnics."

It seems hard on the rats, which didn't ask to be rats. But it did a whole lot more good than the animal testing for commercial gain which is so controversial nowadays. La Garde was able to inflict tetanus pretty reliably by infecting just about any part of the cartridge, but found that tetanus could result when they were sterile. The dust of the street in his day consisted largely of dried horse droppings, one of the main vectors of tetanus. But some people live on farms. He got similar results with anthrax too. It is a good argument against failing to declare even a trifling gunshot or blank cartridge injury. I wouldn't trust wax either, with any kind of skin penetration. One reason .22 rimfires are fatal out of proportion to their size, is that the external lube can pick up just about anything.

There used to be a sport of mock dueling with wax bullets, most often in the .44 or the French 11mm. revolver cartridge. They may sometime have been used in revolvers, but I have seen a pair of beautiful single-shot target pistols with steel hand-guards, which would probably have made excellent target pistols with lead bullets. Coats, gloves and wire mesh masks were generally worn, and I would guess glasses behind the mesh. Unless perhaps in Russia, where they were a bit casual about life, limb and alcoholic refreshment, and didn't call that other game Russian roulette for nothing.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I stand with Nick Quick in regards to Ernie Hill being the record holder. Many, have never heard of Ernie. I knew more about his holsters back in the 80's & 90's than his quick draw abilities. I was a bit surprised like many others to find out Bob Munden was not the fastest on record. As Nick pointed out, get the facts. Bob was a heck of a guy and an awesome shooter no doubt. But as others have said, he was great as self promotion as well. Nothing wrong with that and he did make a living doing so.

Ed McGivern has been overlooked and unheard of by many as well. I purchased his book "Fast & Fancy Revolver Shooting" in the late 70's. Within two weeks, I managed to put 44 out of 50 rounds on a playing card at 10 feet following Mr. McGiverns hip shooting instructions. Ed was never timed on his draw, but one has to wonder if he wasn't in all reality the fastest? Guess we'll never know the answer to that.

Jerry Miculek is undoubtedly an amazing individual. However, if it were possible to rise the dead and bring Ed McGivern back to watch Jerry empty a sixgun with blinding speed? I'm sure Ed would congratulate him on his excellent shooting and then ask a simple question "Why are you using two hands sir?"

Murphy

He undoubtedly would have congratulated him, too. McGivern considered himself to be a pretty ordinary person who had put a bit of thought and a lot of time and trouble into a hobby that wasn't everybody's. But he never claimed, and I don't believe he even imagined, that he had a special talent - although I think he had. He was the man who took the big step from often spurious dime-novel lore, and made the fast draw into a science. I'm reminded of Roger Bannister running the long-elusive four-minute mile in 1954. Soon numerous others were able to do it, because they knew it was possible.

I know of Bill Jordan's courtroom performance, and it reminds us that as well as an instinct for someone meaning them harm being vital in the Old West (and subsequently), so was an ability not to signal one's punches. It's easier for a psychopath, for the genuine article doesn't suffer from nerves anything like as much as a normal person. But it is something the normal gunfighter must have had to cultivate.

Part of the dime-novel mystique, I think, was to always watch their eyes. In my long-gone university fencing days people behind wire mesh didn't have eyes, but the signs were there, to be detected or faked.

[McLintock]

I started fast drawing in 1956, when all the adult westerns came on TV and fast draw got popular. Made my own leather, trying to duplicate Arvo Ojala's design, used a beer can for the metal insert to give it rigidity, they were made out of tin, not aluminum, in those days. My gun was a Ruger Single Six and it was given to me by my uncle, couldn't afford anything else. I remember Thell Reed, asked about in an earlier post, and as I remember it, he did a draw in .1 second, starting when the light went off, and ending when his bullet hit the plate on the timer. He was supposed to be the fastest fast draw guy around in those days. My fastest time was .28 seconds, plus I have a lead .22 bullet still in my leg, just above the knee from when I got too fast for my britches.
McLintock

[jmort]

This is all speculation and what ifs. They all are amazing.