Thoughts on an 1873 in 32-20

[Kevinakaq]

Good morning gentlemen,

First off from time to time I ask a little help on my purchases and this time I just wanted to say thank you for all the good honest advice. I love learning new guns/calibers and always look forward to the sound wisdom freely shared at castboolits and return the favors when I can. Your time is appreciated.

I have recently decided to stop buying any new guns and focus on older classics. Might slow down my collection but the quality and satisfaction will no doubt increase. I am currently looking for an original 1873 and found the following. I had some pics sent to me and will drop by this afternoon and inspect personally. They are asking 1400, which would be most I ever spent on a rifle with the exception of my M1a. I can afford it, just don't like tossing money away on a bad deal. Serial starts with 25 which puts it in the 1877-78 range for dob.

I will mention that I do already have a 32-20 Colt pistol which is a plus. I asked about bore condition and got this reply "The bore is dark, but shootable. It does have rifling, but I would consider it fair condition." I will inspect personally and run a few patches through if I decide to move forward, but this has me concerned to say the least...

Just looking for good honest opinions on this rifle and shopping for a Winchester 1873 original. Thanks ahead of time.

kev

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[Ballistics in Scotland]

The outside of the rifle looks pretty good for a 73, but you have to reckon with the fact that he could be describing the best a dark bore could mean (which might be a good shooter), or the worst. You would frequently pay quite a bit more for a 73 with a good bore, but I think not invariably if you are prepared to do a bit of looking. At the very least, I would only move forward if you are buying it from a dealer or via a website which has a returns policy it is hard to go back on.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Been shooting a 73 in 32-20 for many a year. Was my prime ground hog / raccoon rifle for all that time.
This pictured rifle is in good to VG condition and maybe better in real life. Muzzle looks great. That front sight is rather unique and may be a collector item.

My 32-20 73 has a rough, pitted and interrupted rifling bore. With a .315 50-50 cast it will hold minute of ground hog out to 35 yards. If you are going to pop larger dirt diggers and raccoons I highly recommend the 115 cast. The lighter bullets may not break both shoulders but the 115's flat nose will do it well. Head shots at ear base are very effective also.

To find out the real accuracy potential of that nice looking 73 I would load 5-10 rounds with 3F. Fill the case with 3F to 1/4 inch from the case top. Place a cereal box wad over the powder. Insert your soft cast bullet. I use 40-1 115 grains. Those 3F loads will be very hard to beat accuracy wise with smokeless. Also measure the velocity. With a smokeless powder like Unique to 2400 duplicate that velocity. Then try a little up and down and you will find a decent load. This is what I do with all my old lever flippers and never fails to get a good load going fast.

But do clean out that barrel. You may discover a very nice bore under what may be a bunch of fouling and lead built up over 100 years.
Mike now in ILLinois

[TXGunNut]

There may very well be a difference between "shootable" and "shooter". At this price you could figure on having it relined if too far gone.

[John Taylor]

I picked up a 73 ( 1893) in 32-20 a while back and installed a liner. Have not finished it yet, still need to install a mag tube and forearm. Out side is much rougher than the one pictured but the action runs smooth. I have one of those three position sights, don't remember where it came from.

[Bent Ramrod]

I think Lyman made the three blade sight.

The rifle looks in good, unworn, unbuggered condition, but for 14 hun I would think you could do better, bore wise. I would ask for a shooting trial, or at least a bore and muzzle slugging, if I was madly in love with this rifle and wanted a reasonably good shooter. Dark rifling means careless cleaning, and blunderbuss muzzles are often the result in lever guns cleaned from the muzzle. They aren't always visible to the naked eye. You shouldn't have to do a reline, at that price, but if you have a trumpet muzzle, you will need one.

[35 Whelen]

I've begun picking up an old Colt and Winchester here and there figuring they're as good as money in the bank, only increase in value, and I get to enjoy them!

FWIW, according to the SN, the rifle was produced in 1888.

I'd be really careful about the bore. I have bought a couple of '73's with "fair" or "rough" bores thinking it wouldn't be that big of a deal. Well, it was! One of them was grouped fair out to 50 yds., and the other would occasionally put a bullet on the target point first at 25 yds.! I had way too much money in the worst one and since it would be awhile before I could even break even on it, I had John Taylor line it and decided to just keep it for a shooter. Shoots GREAT now! So, if the bore is listed as rough or fair, I add the cost of a re-lining to the price.

The 32-20 seems to be the least popular caliber, these days, in the 1873. Given that, IMHO the rifle is at least a couple hundred too high. I checked some completed auctions on Gunbroker and it's not too uncommon to find them for $1200 or less.

It's a purty rifle though!

35W

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Greetings
Been shooting a 73 in 32-20 for many a year. Was my prime ground hog / raccoon rifle for all that time.
This pictured rifle is in good to VG condition and maybe better in real life. Muzzle looks great. That front sight is rather unique and may be a collector item.

It would indeed, and you can pay a lot of money for an original sight like that, minus rifle. It is the King triple-bead sight, but I don't know whether the beads were simply of different sizes or shapes, or were of heights for different ranges. Here is a website which claims it must have been made after 1913, though I don't know if that is true:

http://www.gunvaluesboard.com/winchester-1895-405-468681.html

If it is, it puts it too late to be original to your rifle, and drastically cuts the chances with any 1873, since it was discontinued in 1919, with sales probably being minimal for even the peacetime years which preceded that. That does matter to a lot of collectors.

The experience people have outlined here demonstrates what contrary beasts rifles are, when it comes to the effect of a poor bore. If shooting with the bore it has is of great importance to you, the only way to be sure is if you can see the owner shooting it. I hear people exaggerate sometimes.

[bob208]

it looks good by the pics. stocks not sanded or metal sanded on. now the bore look at it very close. it could be just leaded up. i got a 92 in .32-20 that some one fired a box or 2 of the newfactory pistol rounds in and it looked like a rough smothe bore. got it home and it has one of the best bores i have ever seen.

i have a 73 also in .32. it is a good shooter can knock soda can at 100 yards with it. just remember it is not a mag.

as far as price what does a repro. cost?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

as far as price what does a repro. cost?

Good point, and then you only get a repro. This one has been, and it has seen.

[Kevinakaq]

Lots of things to consider gentlemen. I didn't make it to the shop yesterday as I was travelling all day and beat by the time I got home. They are holding it for me though and I should be able to swing by today after work.

As far as shooter or shootable, I plan on shooting this rifle and would like to at least be able to hit the barn if I was standing inside of it with the door shut...lol. My thoughts are akin to '35 Whelen' in that it could possibly be a good investment that I would get to enjoy.

And gotta agree with Bob as I have considered a reproduction but this one isn't much more than what a Uberti etc. would cost...hmmmm.

[missionary5155]

Greetings Kevin...
I would get me a stack of Franklins and head over there. Lay a few down and let the shop know you are serious. That hangy tag of a price is only a guide line. The small of fresh greens has turned the heart of many a "wabbit".
Mike in ILLinois

[Kevinakaq]

Sound wisdom Mike and I am known as a tight negotiator. Some of the pawn shops etc. in Florida know they have to come waay down to make a deal with me. Don't mind spending, just like to feel like I am getting a deal. Problem is place I am looking at this rifle refuses to ever budge! Frustrates **** out of me to be frank and each time they refuse to budge I say never again! Cough... but here I go looking at another rifle from them.

[35 Whelen]

Sound wisdom Mike and I am known as a tight negotiator. Some of the pawn shops etc. in Florida know they have to come waay down to make a deal with me. Don't mind spending, just like to feel like I am getting a deal. Problem is place I am looking at this rifle refuses to ever budge! Frustrates **** out of me to be frank and each time they refuse to budge I say never again! Cough... but here I go looking at another rifle from them.

Remember, that's not the only '73 in 32-20 out there. Be vigilant in watching Gunbroker and Armslist.

35W

[Ballistics in Scotland]

They are right in a sense, for it is a price they are likely to get from somebody if they wait. At the worst it can always be lined in the original caliber or rebored as a .38-40 or .44-40. For the larger calibres I believe it would need a new carrier, but they are available, and this would make it shoot as well as ever it did.

https://www.gunpartscorp.com/Manufacturers/Winchester-33573/Rifles-42602/1873-40277.htm

[Kevinakaq]

They came down to 1300 and i inspected the bore. Rifling all the way to the muzzle. Rifling is pronounced but not shiney. Needs a thorough cleaning and then will know more. Will report back!

[35 Whelen]

Here's a few with decent prices:

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/566499059

http://www.armslist.com/posts/5575495/delaware-rifles-for-sale--winchester-model-73-32-20-model-1873

http://www.armslist.com/posts/5353350/florida-rifles-for-sale--model--1873-winchester--32-20-

http://www.armslist.com/posts/5521558/oklahoma-city-oklahoma-rifles-for-sale--winchester-1873-cal--32-20

35W

[Outpost75]

As an FYI and a caution if you plan to use smokeless powder in your '73. Unlike a modern rifle like a '92, a double-charge of fast-burning pistol or shotgun powder will blow up your heirloom. It is much safer to use a slower rifle powder such as RL7 or 4198 with a standard weight bullet for the caliber. This works well in the .32-20, as well as in the .38-40 and .44-40 and a nominal case full of powder produces velocities which approximate black powder ammunition.

I would refer you to the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th Edition (2010) p. 173, where they list data for the #311008, which is the modern version of traditional bullets for the .32-20. Using IMR4198 the start load is 10 grains and the max. 12.4 grains for 1272 fps at 15,300 cup. These loads fill more than half of the case capacity, so a double charge is obvious.

Using RL7 powder the start load is 12.4 grains and the max. 15.5 grains for 1405 fps and 16,000 cup, which is a case full of powder.

While neither of these are ideal pistol powders, I shoot my .44-40 reloads with 4198 and RL7 in my revolvers and find them accurate and satisfactory. There is some unburned powder, but not enough that I find objectionable if I keep the muzzle elevated when ejecting the empties and blow out the chambers and under the extractor before reloading. Keeps life simple.

[Kevinakaq]

Thanks Outpost for the powder recommendations, very much appreciated. Will keep that in mind and debate on black versus smokeless as well. Shot muzzleloaders all my life and started loading 3f in my 44-40 Peacemaker and 1875 reproductions last year. Can't imagine anything other than black for my 44-40's.

I put some kroil down the barrel and let her soak a few then ran five or so patches through the barrel very carefully. Rifling is strong and fairly crisp. Bore is not that dark, slightly shiney in appears but maybe I am just overly optimistic. I do see a few rust lines for lack of a better way of expressing the feature. Spiral lines in the foot or so from the muzzle. Not a lot, but a few of these lines that look to me as though at one time a small amount of rust got in.

Well good or bad buy it is my first 1873 and I own it...lol!

Hard to get a good pic...
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[izzyjoe]

I assume you got it, that one has some nice patina to it! Bore looks real good considering it age, it should make a fine shooter!

[smokeywolf]

Congratulations! Model '73s are a joy to shoot. Looking forward to your range report on this old girl.

When I'm asked if I like Winchesters, my standard response is, "You mean someone else made a lever action?"

[bob208]

i think you got a shooter there. nice bore.i use the lyman 115 gr. gas check bullet in mine. it rolls ground hogs and soda cans real nice.

[TXGunNut]

I think you did OK, maybe better than OK. Rifling looks better than I expected. NOE has a version of the 311008, think it's a 314008. I think it will handle smokeless or Holy Black, Lee has a TL 311098 (?) for SP plinker loads. My 32-20 1892 is off being relined so I can't say for sure. ;-)

[clum553946]

I love shooting my '73 32-20, I know you'll be really happy with yours! The barrel looks pretty good & those '73's just have a classic look!

[ajjohns]

I think you did just fine, have fun with it!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, those bore pictures greatly increase the chances that it will give acceptable shooting. Generally enlargement of the muzzle does more harm to accuracy than enlargement near the chamber, the only other difference being that careless use of a cleaning-rod causes one, and gas erosion the other. But your rifle looks like the rifling is lightly pitted, but extends all the way to the muzzle at full depth. That sort of pitting, which can easily be caused by atmospheric rusting, is less harmful there, where the pressure is low, than it would be further back.

[35 Whelen]

Judging from the pictures of the bore, I think it's going to be fine.

35W

[9.3X62AL]

I would have given $1300 for that rifle, now that I see its bore condition. I have used the RL-7 regimen that Outpost 75 spoke of in my '73 in 44-40 WCF and in my Marlin 94 in 32-20 WCF. In both calibers, well-fit bullets run at 1880s velocities and pressures, and will place 5 shots inside 1.25" at 50 yards and at or just over 3" at 100. Too much fun, for certain.

[John Taylor]

A while back someone sent me a barrel for reline and it did look bad. I ran some 4-0 steel wool through it and it cleaned out all the junk and left the bore shiny with very good rifling. On the 73, reboring the barrel to 38-40 or 44-40 will not work on the 32-20 action. The bolt face , the mag tube and carrier are smaller. If you want a rare 73 look for one made in 22 short. These did not go very good but were also made in takedown versions. They did not have a firing pin but had a little raised portion on each side of the breach face. The hammer blow drove the entire breach forward enough to fire it. The toggle links had an elongated hole for the pin that went through the breach to allow the breach to move forward. The carrier had a little spring on the side that would not let the cartridge go all the way back. Some of the carriers had two positions for the spring so it could be adjusted for 22 long. I saw a picture of one with a selector lever that would except short, long and long rifle but never confirmed that Winchester made it.

[9.3X62AL]

About 12 years ago I lusted in my heart for one of the Uberti '73 repros in 32/20. Truth be told, that itch still surfaces from time to time, because I enjoy the caliber so darn much. A Marlin 94 CCL slaked the thirst in 32/20 somewhat, but I still get "called to" by '73 Winchesters.

[Bent Ramrod]

The 73 is a great rifle, and the .32-20 is a fun caliber for sure. I'd love to get a button magazine half octagon version (like the .44 Paul Newman had in Hombre) in .32-20 but my gun safe would probably explode.

I recognize the value of "marketability," but wonder how a 73 would sell in .25-20. Of course, brass is hard to get now, but the caliber is more within the traditions of such a rifle than the Magnum pistol rounds, and there always seems to be a fair amount of interest in the caliber.

I saw a 73 in .22 RF once. It had, insanely, been rechambered and presumably reworked, into .22 Jet. Nobody offered relining back then, and it was really heavy, so I passed, figuring something had to be wrong with it. "Ve get too soon oldt, and too late schmardt."

[enfield]

There's a 73 in 22 short , 24" octagon for sale at a dealer where I just bought a rifle, listed in very good condition, for $5995.00 , too steep for me.

[John Taylor]

This looks like it would be fun. http://www.gunbroker.com/item/566587868

[northmn]

A question for John. With todays mold availability and the anemic factory loads would it be possible or reasonable to reline a 32-20 bore that needed it with a 308 barrel. I understand some Contenders were made that way. I realize the twist might be a bit fast but the cast bullet availability would increase as well as jacketed in some 110 grain offerings. I was given some Remington 32-20 Factory loads and they shot abysmally, as not able to sight in reasonably at 50 yards. I have a 94 CL that shoots cast hand loads beautifully. So I question what advantage the available factory loads would have. Purists might want the 312 bore like some want a 427 in a 44-40 but even Colt saw the light and went to a 452 bore in their 45 after WW2.

DEP

[John Taylor]

A question for John. With todays mold availability and the anemic factory loads would it be possible or reasonable to reline a 32-20 bore that needed it with a 308 barrel. I understand some Contenders were made that way. I realize the twist might be a bit fast but the cast bullet availability would increase as well as jacketed in some 110 grain offerings. I was given some Remington 32-20 Factory loads and they shot abysmally, as not able to sight in reasonably at 50 yards. I have a 94 CL that shoots cast hand loads beautifully. So I question what advantage the available factory loads would have. Purists might want the 312 bore like some want a 427 in a 44-40 but even Colt saw the light and went to a 452 bore in their 45 after WW2.

DEP
I have not tried a 308 bore on the 32-20 but have used it for 32 S&W with .312 lead bullets. You would need to size the neck down to hold the smaller bullet.

[Outpost75]

Thompson-Center made Contender ".30-20" barrels with common .308" barrels. As John said, doing so requires a tighter size die and .307 expander plug to properly hold the smaller jacketed bullets. I have one of the .32 S&W Long barrels John mentioned, using a 10" twist, .308 barrel and it shoots well with .312" diameter cast bullets, giving .32-20 performance with 5.5-6.0 grains of Alliant #2400, a nominal case full of powder. Accurate 31-155D with 5.5 grains of #2400 gives 1030 fps from an 18" barrel with good accuracy and low noise.

[northmn]

Thank you. Sometimes wonder if that is not holding some of these 32 chamberings back as a 311 bore is kind of different.

DP

[Outpost75]

Thank you. Sometimes wonder if that is not holding some of these 32 chamberings back as a 311 bore is kind of different. DP

Maybe different for our era, but in black powder days it was actually about in the middle of the pack of its contemporary ".32s", as the .32 S&W being .314, the .32 Long Colt .300 and the .32-40 was the only one which was actually a .320 bullet diameter.

Bore and groove dimensions standardized under SAAMI for the .32-20 are quite similar to the .32 ACP except for its twist rate.

[9.3X62AL]

One of the true "positives" about being a bullet caster to feed your war toys with is the ability to closely tailor bullet dimensions to your firearm's needs.

[TXGunNut]

This looks like it would be fun. http://www.gunbroker.com/item/566587868


Agreed. Have yet to see an 1873 in 22 in person. Wonder how bad that pitting really is.

[smokeywolf]

This looks like it would be fun. http://www.gunbroker.com/item/566587868

They are pretty fun. But, a pretty expensive gun for shooting tree-rats and rabbits.

[9.3X62AL]

They are pretty fun. But, a pretty expensive gun for shooting tree-rats and rabbits.

Same thought I had circa 2003 or so, a local shop (Muskets to Magnums) had a '73 by 22 Short. $1500 tariff IIRC, which was a mite strong for me with kids in school and bound for college. Nice bore and good mechanics, light brown patina. 73's just CALL TO ME--I grew up with one in 44/40 WCF on a wall rack in the den, Great-Grandpa's ranch rifle. It is in the safe now, and gets shot some. I want to deer-hunt with it this year, since lead bullets will be verboten in 2019 for game in CA. Much of the state already endures this idiocy, but my local mountains haven't been "purified" yet. Hope to be back in the United States before the Copper Condor Keeper Corps takes over.