Could use some feed back on 40-65

[Boz330]

Ok you 40-65 guys, finally got my 16 twist Badger barrel and Malcolm scope up and running yesterday. Broke the barrel in with jacketed and fired 30+ cast rounds through it. My question is, what boolits are you guys having the best luck with In that combination. I have several flavors of 400+gr boolits to try so far but thought I'd see whats working for you guys.

Bob

[Jon K]

Paul Jones #40001 420 gr Creedmore.............

Jon

[Black Prince]

Boz

Good on you pard. Sounds like a FINE new toy!!!

I am shooting the Lyman/Snover bullet that Lyman lists as bullet number 410663BV. They say it casts a 400 grain bullet using #2 alloy. Mine come out at 415 grains using 30 to 1 alloy. The Badger barrel with the 1 in 16 twist and initial velocities of 1400 FPS stabilizes that bullet out to 800 yards, which is as far as I've shot it. I did not get the accuracy I wanted from it although other people say it shoots very well for them in 1 and 16 barrels. That Lyman mould came with my rifle when I bought it from an individual. He shot minute of angle accuracy with it, but duplicating his loads, I could not duplicate his accuracy. So much for the difference in the way I shoot and they way he shoots. He shoots better than I do because I do not doubt that he shot minute of angle with it.

I am presently using one of Dave Farmer's Hoch nose pour moulds (they are in stock from CPA Rifles) that he lists as the 409-430. It casts a beautiful bore riding bullet at 437 grains using 30 to 1 alloy. The bases are perfect as they usually are with nose pour moulds, but I have to run the metal and the mould hot. The bullet stabilizes in the Badger 1 in 16 barrel out to 800 yards which is a far as I've shot it. My velocity with that load is 1437 FPS at 15 feet from the muzzle and I am using a duplex load to get that velocity. The accuracy is what I wanted.

If I wanted to shoot lighter bullets, I'd be shooting a 38 caliber rifle. Black powder cartridge rifles seem to shoot best using a hot primer, a bullet that is heavy for the caliber, and by jaming it into the lands. This gets the pressure up quickly and helps to make a cleaner burn on the powder. Some people will refute that, but it is what I've found works best for me. Some people also use a heavy crimp, but I have not found that to be beneficial unless I seat the bullet off the lands.

I hope your new rifalgun does well for you pard. I am of the opinion that the bullet is as important as the rifle. The bullet base and the barrel crown are absolutely critical. They must be flat with no dings. The rifle can only shoot as good as the ammo and when you get serious about casting and loading good bullets, you'll find your accuracy will be good too.

All the best and let us know how it does.

[Don McDowell]

The Lyman Snover, and all 3 weights of the RCBS CSA bullets work pretty well in the one my wife shoots.
Also the Lyman 412263 for the 405 sized to .410 serves her pretty well as an off hand load.
Goex 3f express coupled .030 fiber wads, with 16-1 bullets really made this rifle with the greenmtn barrel sit up and pay attention.

[Boz330]

I have several of the Lyman Snovers and some Steve Brooks Super Snovers. Plus Some Lyman 410660s and a 455gr boolit that is 1.5 inches long to try out. My old barrel liked the RCBS CSA 350gr but not anything heavier.
BP, I've been using Swiss 2F in the old barrel and it didn't like a real hot ignition in my gun. LRP with a newsprint disc over primer gave the best groups. I was going to start with that same load with the different boolits and once I found the best boolit then I was going to start working the components and see where it leads. I just haven't bought a mould yet and as you know that by itself can get into the pocketbook pretty quick. I figered out long time ago I didn't need to make ALL of the mistakes myself. I could profit from other folks wanderings down that same trail.

Bob

[Don McDowell]

Bob if you have that 385 gr really pointy bugger of Lymans beware of it on windy days, it doesn't take much of a breeze to make for some lousy groups and keyholing past 200 yds.

I think one of the great things about www.montanabulletworks.com , is the large selection of molds in various calibers they have. It's a heck of alot easier to order a good selection of their bullets , try em out, and then order the mold , than it is jumping in and ordering molds.:mrgreen:
www.sageoutfitters has a couple of proven 40 cal bullets all cast up and ready to go also.

[Black Prince]

Table of bullet/twist rates
.410 Bullet diameter
Bullet length Twist required
1.187 to 1.235 1 in 25
1.236 to 1.287 1 in 24
1.288 to 1.344 1 in 23
1.345 to 1.407 1 in 22
1.408 to 1.476 1 in 21
1.477 to 1.551 1 in 20
1.552 to 1.635 1 in 19
1.636 to 1.729 1 in 18
1.730 to 1.833 1 in 17
1.834 to 1.952 1 in 16
1.953 to 2.086 1 in 15
2.087 to 2.241 1 in 14
2.242 to 2.420 1 in 13
2.421 to 2.631 1 in 12
2.632 to 2.881 1 in 11

Bob

Thanks for that info. I've been gonna try the NP over the primer thing, but haven't got around to it yet with the 40-65. Tried it with my 45-70 and did not notice any difference in accuracy. I'm shooting Swiss 1.5 in my 40-65 just because I bought 25 pounds of it when I got the rifle. I've also got five pounds of Goex FF-G here and three pounds of 3F-G. Been gonna try 3-F, but just ain't got one of them dern little roundtuits!!! Whur you reckon a feller can find one of them son-of-a-guns?

If you look at the table above, you can see that you can shoot a heavy (long) bullet in that 1 in 16 barrel without much problem. For short ranges, you don't even have to get it going very fast to do that either. But if you start going down range 800 yards or so, you'll need to get the velocity some up in order to maintain rotational spin and velocity for bullet stability down there. Those funny looking long bullet holes play hell with accuracy!!

.40 Silhouette Hoch bullet
.409" diameter straight sides
1.376" long
430 grains
suitable for .40-65, 40-70, etc.
16" - 18" twist
mid-range up to 800 yards

The above is information on the Hoch nose pour mould I recommended. Look at the table and you can see that it will stabilize in your barrel just fine. Would sure be interested in what you do, your loads and how they shoot. I'm always looking for that "magic" load.

[Boz330]

BP, know only to well about that rountuit thing. Thought maybe when I retire I could get rountuit but my friends already there say no it don't get no better. Honey do list just gets longer. In any case won't find that out for another couple years anywho.
That table you posted is quite interesting. Here is the place I go for that sort of info http://www.uslink.net/~tom1/twistrate.htm . and at the kind of velocities I'm getting with straight BP it says 1.3 or so. Now we both know that is just a general rule and BPCRs especially are rules unto themselves. Even iffin one of us finds the magic combo it doan mean it will work in the twin sister of the gun we have.
As for the NP wad I did try a number of different combos of primers with and with out and the LRP worked the best. I tried MLRPs and LPPs both ways and several different times and the NP and LRP was the best each time. I've learned that if you get a good group once don't mean it will happen again. Got to try it several times for the final word, and even then it will make a liar out of you on any given day. I also tried 1.5F and 3F but 2F worked best. Again not that, that is the last word, but that rountuit thing again and my current load works pretty good or did. [smilie=b:

Don , thanks for the info on that pointy boolit. I had a friend that had pretty good luck with it, but we mostly shoot in a valley and the wind is not as bad as it could be in the open. The weight though isn't far enough ahead of the reason that I went to a 16 twist barrel. That particular boolit didn't shoot worth squat in my 18 twist barrel and I never could get any 400 to shoot worth a damn in it, even though John Shofstall said he never had any problem with them. BTW this is a CSA Hi-wall, 1991 vintage, before the Badger barrels. Shore do love those Hi-walls, I really do. Keep the opinions coming, I'm listening, no need to re-invent the wheel if I don't need to.
BTW I don't anticipate shooting past 800yds and then only at Quigley. My shootin buddy and I are going to give it a try this year. Figure at the price of diesil this will be the first and last year. Kind of a shame, sure is nice associating with folks of like mind and I truly beleive we are a dieing breed. The younguns nowadays would rather sit in front of a computer and play games than really do something.

Bob

[Don McDowell]

Bob a couple of years ago when I was digging for info on a long range bullet for the 40-65, the lyman snover seemed to be the overwhelming favorite. This rifle we have here has the Ron Long chamber so there's no throat to speak of, and most any of the longer bullets have to be seated fairly deep. I would like to run some paper patch thru it once just for kicks and see what happens. But its shooting iddy biddy groups all the way to 1000 as it is with the hard cast snover and the goex 3xpress so guess there's no real point to mess with it.
Enjoy the Quigley its quite an event. Lots of fun, but bear in mind if you miss more than 1 shot at each target you're going to end up with the alsorans.:drinks:Practice your off hand that bucket ain't real big, along ways off and has some nasty cross currents and updraft between it and the firing lind,will make or break your score, and get a good bit of practice doping the wind and mirage.
The dates for it usually end up in conflict with us putting up hay, so its a good/bad situation, if there's been moisture we're home haying, and can't make the Q. If its been dry or cold and the hay isn't ready to cut we can go, but then that means we're likely going to have to buy hay, and the money for the trip up .........:???:

[Black Prince]

Bob

Don brings up a good point about how your chamber and throat are cut. My rifle has .200 inches of throat that Browning cut in all of the 40-65's they made in their BPCR highwalls. That gives me more room to stick that long bullet into and leave space for as much powder as I need to make it go about as fast as I want to shoot it. I've got two full grease groves and half a driving band out of the case with my loads now. In order to engage the lands, it takes sticking that much of the bullet out of the case. Instead of a 40-65 / 2.1, I have a 40-65 / 2.3 as far as case capacity goes.

But Don's rifle is not made that way and he has to make the choice of bullet mass or powder capacity even though it does not sound like he is having any problem with that. You may need to do the same and it will for sure be a consideration in which bullet you choose, especially if you need the powder capacity to shoot 800 to 1000 yards.

The place you get twist rates from says I need a lot faster twist than the table I posted, which from experience, I have always thought was slow. I think those are calculated from the old Greenhill formula. So I book marked your place and will use it from now on. THANKS!!

Speaking of retardment, now that I am supposed to be, I don't know how I ever had time to work for somebody else anyway. I go from daylight to dark and never get finished; I'm always behind, and somebody is always on my ash wanting something. Heck, it's just like it was at work!! I don't watch TV at all. I don't cut grass. I don't have time to fish. I'll tell ya pard, there ain't a lotta difference between retardment and work except I don't get paid for the work I do now; I don't get any paid vacation; I don't get paid hollidays; I don't get expense reimbursement, and most days, I don't even get lunch.

In retardment you can't remember a dam thing; you can't read street signs anymore, and why is everybody talking so low now days? Heck, I can hardly hear them anymore. Pretty girls just park their cars in your spot and don't do much else for you. Old women say you are an old fart. Children are afraid of you. Dogs bite you. The only person that treats you right is the old guy at Wal-Mart who says "Welcome to Wally World", but I really don't belive he gives a dam.

Yeah hell, this retardment is great. You gonna love it.

[Boz330]

Don, the last thing I am is competitive. I'm going for grins and giggles. My buddy on the other hand is pretty damn good, always has been. He made NRA Distinguished in Hi-power back in 93. Before that he did a lot of stand on your hind legs and shoot like a man muzzle loading with a spark lock. About the only time I get to beat him is when he brings experimental loads to a match cuz he didn't have time to test them before hand. When that happens I rub it in pretty good. Kind of a joke around the club.
I actually bought a reamer from PTG for the 40-65 And I have to measure it to see what the lead is. The same buddy has a machine shop in his basement so he did all this work for me.
Hell if you want to cut hay come to my place it is butt hole deep to the Jolly Green Giant and my tractor is broke. I do understand though. My farm is concidered a hobby farm by the IRS but it did pay for itself for 20 years and put food on the table to boot. I started my business 12 years back and just didn't have time for cows and all the stuff that goes with them anymore. Working till midnite just doesn't have the appeal it used to now that I'm in my 60s, so something had to go and the cows weren't worth that much money then.
BP, that retardment sounds just like owning your own business, everybody else gets paid before you do and whatever is left over you get to give to the guberment cuzz they know better how to spend it than you do. Comes out the same in the long run. What I do is based in the recreational industry and involves fuel so you can take WAG how that is going this year. And I get to deal with the FAA as well, way more fun than an old guy should have to put up with.
My buddy is retard, Duke Energy gave him 100K to get the hell out and then hired him back as a consultant for 70 bucks an hour. Seems they got rid of the only guy that knew what he was doing in his field. Problem is he don't have enough time to do all the projects that I don't have time to do. And hell I even buy the beer.
Attached is a Pic of the project incase anyone was interested.

Bob

[Don McDowell]

Bob , the reamer I used was a PTG. I was having trouble with leading and was sort of concerned about the short lead. I took the rifle to Ron Long and he looked it over abit, and then stuck his reamer up the chamber, and it fit just fine. So we went on to other things trying to solve the leading. Upon further checking the reamer was stamped 40-65 rl.:-D
Nice looking hiwall set up there.

Wish I could get there and put up hay.:???:If this danged drought doesn't ease up quick, I'm liable to be up in the Powder River Basin looking to be a coal miner or oil field trash,before the year is out:neutral:.

[Boz330]

Bob , the reamer I used was a PTG. I was having trouble with leading and was sort of concerned about the short lead. I took the rifle to Ron Long and he looked it over abit, and then stuck his reamer up the chamber, and it fit just fine. So we went on to other things trying to solve the leading. Upon further checking the reamer was stamped 40-65 rl.:-D
Nice looking hiwall set up there.

Wish I could get there and put up hay.:???:If this danged drought doesn't ease up quick, I'm liable to be up in the Powder River Basin looking to be a coal miner or oil field trash,before the year is out:neutral:.

Thanks.

Understand that we had a drought last year, put a lot of the local guys in a hell of a fix. This year it has rained 46% of the days so far this year. I've cut my grass here at the shop more this year so far than all of last summer and needs it again except it's raining. Best of luck to you!

Bob