possible new design 22 cal

[Bullshop]

Felix
I couldnt find the thread where we were talking about this so am starting a new one. I was shooting a bit more today with the Sako 222 and the pointed NEI 55's. Got set up after church but not much light left for chrono. Did manage to get a couple through before it gave up. With CCI mag primers and the 19gn H 4895 we got 2323 fps average with great accuracy. Most shots at 100 yards were in .75" with an ocaisional stray out to about 1.5" so not too bad. Charges are thrown from an RCBS uniflow and no weighing or sorting of boolits, just take them as they come. Tried H-380 and topped out at 24gn for a 2500 fps average and closer to 1.5" average group. Over 2500 with h 380 and they opened up quick. I dont think its a limit for the boolit/alloy as we saw the same thing with other powders at lower velocities. No apparent lube problem as we maintaned black bore through out all shooting. With the thrown charges we were getting about 25 fps extream spreads with the better loads. Most were closer but a ocasional wide one opened the average. This might be improved with weighed charges, but thats just too slow for me. Im not shooting BR but just looking for GOOD hunting accuracy. We tried some wc-844 that seemed to top out at about 22gn. It shot fair but not quite as consistant as the others. The chrono quit before that so dont know how fast it was but it seemed pretty fast. I was getting a feel for speed by where the groups were going on target as progresively faster loads were progresively lower on target until the point was reached that groups went soure then they seemed to go high again, but wild. Lots of things I wanted to try but days are getting short now so have to get an earlier start. I would like to see a small maplate on this boolit like on the RCBS design. I have not tried that one yet but am not apposed to a bit of begging and grovveling to BS Mom to do so. Anxious to hear how your shooting is going, and even more anxious to find that one design that will out do all others and make the 22's as user friendly as the bigger cals. The h 380 load at 2500 fps leaves an impressive crater in the 1" thick steel swinger at our 100 yard line. Should do same on coyote sized critters. Wont be long and fur will be worth a couple $ again. You should see Jr's eye's when I tell him he can make enough for a nice new rifle if he gets half a dozen coyotes over the winter, or one good wolf will do the same. He says what!!! hunt and get paid!!! OH YEA!!!
BIC/BS

[Scrounger]

BS, go to slower powder, like H414, H450, or H870. Start at 25 grains and work up. Your accuracy may well be very good, but it will go away when a certain pressure is reached. Using a slower powder will allow you to increase the velocity some before the point on the pressure curve is reached that destroys accuracy.

[Bullshop]

BS, go to slower powder, like H414, H450, or H870. Start at 25 grains and work up. Your accuracy may well be very good, but it will go away when a certain pressure is reached. Using a slower powder will allow you to increase the velocity some before the point on the pressure curve is reached that destroys accuracy.
I dont think I can get enough of those slower burners in the 222 case to make it interesting. The H 380 load was about 100% dencity. I have doubt that H870 would burn at all with a full case compressed load, just not enough pressure. I know what you are saying is true but only to a point. A case full of too slow powder for a small capicity case doesnt reach high enough pressure to burn right and all you get is low velocity wild extream spreads maby hang fires and a real dirty gun. Well that is unless you are shooting a boolit that is 2 to 3 times the stander weight for caliber, like a 100gn 22 cal. I think the limit for the 222 case for good velocity would be something slightly faster than the H414 you suggested but certantly not slower as the other two are. These are just my views but not neccessarily fact. I may be proven wrong as I have been before by folks right here on this board.
BIC/BS

[Bass Ackward]

I dont think I can get enough of those slower burners in the 222 case to make it interesting. The H 380 load was about 100% dencity. I have doubt that H870 would burn at all with a full case compressed load, just not enough pressure. I know what you are saying is true but only to a point. A case full of too slow powder for a small capicity case doesnt reach high enough pressure to burn right and all you get is low velocity wild extream spreads maby hang fires and a real dirty gun. Well that is unless you are shooting a boolit that is 2 to 3 times the stander weight for caliber, like a 100gn 22 cal. I think the limit for the 222 case for good velocity would be something slightly faster than the H414 you suggested but certantly not slower as the other two are. These are just my views but not neccessarily fact. I may be proven wrong as I have been before by folks right here on this board.
BIC/BS


Dan,

That is the second sweet spot for 22s. That occurs because of vibration. In order to succussfully rise above that you have to alter the frequency of your barrel by bedding. Then you can go on up. It may be light or heavy or even completely free. Depends on the barrel.

I prefer stick powders when you try to go up because you usually get better ignition because of the air space. In fact, I usually can get better ignition from pistol primers and stick than magnum rifle primers and ball. And stick powders burn better at lower pressure levels. It sounds to me from what you describe that ignition was the limiter. Try all other tricks to improve it. (bigger / harder bullet, seat deeper in the lands, etc)

Still you aren't far from there. About 2600 is as fast as I can go and maintain MOA in my Howa sporter 223. But I can get 1 1/2" up to 29 and change if I go .226.

[felix]

Dan, I think BA has it covered quite well. Here lately I have been going faster in powder speed instead of slower. Yes, it is all about ignition, and if the powder ignites quickly and smoothly enough, all is well within the larger case. The vibes come into play as well, and my 222 gun has that damnation full competition barrel (heavy varmit class) and would be worthless on a hunting piece. N105 at 9 grains, N110 at 12.5 grains, both single base powders exceptionally clean burning. Pistol primers. ... felix

[Bullshop]

BA
This is with a nice older Sako Vixen. A fairly light barrel as barrels go but still a pretty small hole in it. I dont think I will jump on the bedding right away. It looks to be even all the way on both sides but is tight, old craftsmanship. So if I am reading you right where my group goes back high but wild somewhere in that area is another potencialy most accurate sweet spot if I find a way to change vibes or minimize amplitude or nodes or whatever. I love hearing from you brother but sometimes I feel like I am driving a model T in the Indy 500. I was using mag primers because I was using powders that would be considered two slow for application and was looking for better ignition with same. Considering what you and Felix are saying think I will look toward 4227 burn rate and pistal primers. Have found Fed #100 to be a very mild primer and best in my hornet loads, but in that application they are only lighting about half the ammount of powder as in the 222.
Felix
I have been realy wanting to try that N 110 but I can only find it here in two lb cans and it runs about $70 a can. So every time I see it I pick up the can look at the price shake and shudder and set it back where it was. 4198 has always been my choice for the 222 with jacket so staying with stick powder and speeding up the burn rate I will try 4227 and pistal primers. 4227 has always been a favorite in the hornet with any bullet/boolit. I have a good supply of the H veriety on hand. This ammo was loaded with 15 to 20 .000" engraving so I can mess with that a bit too. I think about 3000 fps is tops or there abouts from a 222 with 55gn and I am sneaking up on it. When its all sorted out I will have some good (cheap) loads well seuited to hunting. A 55gn at 2500 is already exceeding anything I have been able to get from a hornet with same bullet weight. This is in the 30/06 308 velocity range just with tiny boolits. I feel it should be good for coyote sized game out to 150 yards or so but would still rather see a little flat on that nose. BS mom is just gona have to come up with the RCBS mold, after all its not for me its for the sake of all shooting man kind.
BIC/BS

[Bass Ackward]

I am not talking about going as fast as Felix, but 10X to 3031 should be ideal if you use a pistol primer and run the pressure up some @ 40k.

[Bullshop]

BA
Your one up on me again, what is 10X? 3031 Ive got, no problem but not shure what the 10X is maby reloader 10 or sumpin? I found a new can of Norma 200 today in the powder cash, and will try that too. Prolly right in the middle of what you and Felix said for burn rate.
BIC/BS

[Bullshop]

BA
Got a chance to sneak out this afternoon for a bit. Tried some 3031 with Fed #100 sp primers. Decieded to just go for 3000 fps right off as I was running out of light fast. Our days are getting pretty short now. Tried 22gn and guestimate it should croud the magicle 3000 but it was wild so had to back off. Still had a nice black bore with no hint of color but was having trouble keeping on a paper plate at 100 yds. It didnt realy settle down till I got down between 17 to 18 gn. I was getting 2" verticle strings but only .5" wide. To dark to chrono but guess arround 2600 fps. Might have been too cold for the mild Fed #100 as it didnt get much over 15 F today. I am guessing that verticle string would show a wide extream spread if the chrono was working. These were cast in 321Q alloy which has given a bhn 30 from some molds but these little 22's are hard to test. I come up with 18 to 20 as best as I can do. I think you cant get them in the water fast enough to get them harder. Boolits with more mass give that extra second without dropping temp to get them in. They were sized nose first in a Lee push through first then lubed in a .225, and mike .225" after lube. I haven't cleaned the rifle since I started on this, and that is another thing I am looking for. A well ballanced load not too finiky to B R type cleaning procedure's. I cant stand it any more, I am going to ask BS Mom for the RCBS mold, hang on---- YIPPY!! she said yes, no begging or grovelling YIPPY!!
BIC/BS

[Bass Ackward]

Dan,

Reloader 10X was made for small cases and target work. It also performs well in large straight cases. It is located right between 3031 and 4198. Ignites beautifully. But consider that your bullet design might be the limiter. Looked at accuracy loads and found 16-17 grains of 4227 if that helps.

[Bullshop]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/bullshop/62a8a13f.jpg

Shot this today with the sako 222. Poor conditions dark windy and snowing. The powder is thrown and no sorting or weighing of boolits. My goal here is to take the 222 to its full potential or as close as I can get with cast and maintain 1.5 moa average, and to do it without sorting or fussing . Felix I think you were stearing me toward accurate with the faster burners but I need fast too. For now I am going to chase the mid burners that can produce 40,000 psi at or near 100% dencity. Felix and BA both steared me toward pistal primers but I am having better luck with the srm, perhaps due to cold. We have been arround 0 at night and high teens in the few hours of daylight we have. A couple five shot groups cant tell much but from this and others I see the boolits with the most berring length are doing best. I have been having best luck with the NEI #4 55gn pointed, it is all bearing length. If you look at target's for the Lee Bator and the Lyman 60gn RN also all bearing length they did pretty good. All boolits were with the 19gn H 4895 and CCI SRM primer. The cases were reformed mil and this is the first fire form load. I wonderd why the NEI #4 was still doing better (not shown) and what was different. Two things came to mind, the NEI was sized nose first in a Lee .224" die and the others were sized in a .225" also the NEI was quenched and the others not. I was having poor luck with these longer boolits Lyman and Bator in the smaller cases of hornet and ccm with 1/14" twist. Now in the larger 222 and 1/14" they are begining to look good. So a couple things I am seeing are a little harder acts like a longer bearing length, lots of bearing length seems to group better but in the 1/14" twist has to have enough velocity to get the long boolits spinning fast enough. The high teens of the Cooper was not enough. The 45 grainers are not in the game at higher speeds (short bearing). The NEI is pointed and flies quite flat. The Lyman 60 rn and Bator are not as sleak but I have not yet gotten far enough in this to compare the differance. I am beginning to think that 52 to 53gn will be optimum for weight with Loverin style body (mostly bearing surface) with an efficiant nose design. Since many or most 22 cals are 1/14" twist that is what I am aiming at. Today I cast some of the Lyman 60rn and quenched them. Sized nose first in a .225" and also lubed in a .225". God willing they will fly tomarrow. Once I figgure out which one will group best with this load I will then consintrate on makeing it go fast. The 19gn H 4895 is pushing 2400 fps and seems to do good with all boolits over 50gn. As BA said I too think 30/31 has great potential and will try to wring that out soon. Thats it so far but I plan to keep working on it, God willing.
BIC/BS

[Bullshop]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/bullshop/475b174d.jpg
Some of todays results. Target at left is NEI 55 and 19gn H 4895 which has been about the best so far. Today with the lyman 60 rn in WWQ I was able to go up one grain to 20 with good results. With 21 they opened up. These were with the CCI# 450mag. At this point I tried sp primers and no good. The same 20gn load with sp was all over the plate. I went all the way to 23.5gn which is a case full to just below the mouth with the sp primers but no joy. The Lyman book I was using shows 23gn max for the 60gn jacket and going 1/2 gn beyond I still had black bore without any sign of color whatever, love that Speed Green. These boolits cast yesterday with straight ww and quenched from the mold are working good. I tested them about 8 hours after casting and they tested at BHN- 20. They were cast with the RCBS pot dial set off the scale below 600f and I was able to work fast. I went by the clock for exactly one hour and made 480 boolits with the two cav Lyman mold. This is the first time I cast 22's in straight ww and not at max temp for the pot. I have been doing all my casting this way lately and have found many benifits to it. First at lower temps the pot does not drip, secondly by casting with a single mold instead of tandem and cutting the sprues while soft I found that boolits fall out much easier and molds that have given trouble with straight ww now cast perfectly. Running fast keeps the mold a more consistant temp and plenty hot even with a low alloy temp.Lower temp alloy keeps lube from burning off mold blocks so they need lubed far less frequently. Boolits fall out looking wet and shiney and then in a couple seconds are compleatly frosted. Quenching this way yealds a hard boolit. I will try to post a pic of my quenching troth that carries boolits to the water gently without any chance of getting water in the mold or pot. This has been a benifit as I havent had to use other more precious metal to sweeten up the WW. I also believe quality has improved with this method and will probably not cast tandem again.
I did try some of the Norma #200 at 18.5gn and it looked good. It may do great if tweaked but I am afraid to find out as I am not shure it can still be found. Also tried a stiff load of 748 but not too good. Lyman shows high vel. and low pressure with jacketed bullets but it didnt work out today. Think i will stick with stick. It looks like I have taken 4895 as far as I can and although am getting acceptable hunting accuracy would still like a bit more speed over the 2500 fps or so that 20gn is getting. Guess I will try to wring out 3031, I have a can and know I can get more. Must study the charts and see what other sticks are in the right burn rate. BA you mentioned that my boolit design may be the limiting factor, so what design do you use to get the high velocity you mentioned, custom? How about suggestions on design features. I would like to believe with effort I can get close to the 3000 fps the 222 can do with this weight boolits 55 to 60gn but so far about 2600 has been tops for my rifle and Jr went 2700 with his 788. Having lots of fun trying though. Oh yea BTW I wanted to mention all groupes are at 100 yards. Shooting is from front rest only with left hand on bag to simulate a hunting hold, no rear rest just butstock to sholder.
BIC/BS

[Bass Ackward]

[QUOTE=BullshopBA you mentioned that my boolit design may be the limiting factor, so what design do you use to get the high velocity you mentioned, custom? BIC/BS[/QUOTE]


Dan,

The mold I use now for 22 caliber is the RCBS 22-060 FN. This was a .228 diameter bullet for the Savage High Power. But if you size it down to .226 it removes most of the bore ride design. It becomes the perfect fit for 223 Remingtons that have the military throat.

The reason so many people have trouble with the 223 I believe is that they have throats cut so that if someone chambers military ammo that it doesn't blow the gun. Same thing with the 22 Hornet. More guns have been blown with the 22 Hornet than any other factory caliber. So they cut larger / fatter throats to cut pressure. My Howa is this way.

This .228 bullet allows you to size anywhere you need to, but it is to heavy for most Hornets.

[Bullshop]

BA
I think I have that one, but seems like mine is more like 70gn. Did they make more than one for the hi power? For some reason I thought it was too long for 1/14" twist. What was the twist for the hi power? If its not too long I have a .228" I can lube them in and a Lee .225" to bring them down. Gotta keep trying! I am thinking now there is a bedding issue. The last groups I have been firing have been takeing an anguler drift up/right in a five shot string. With the best loads it seems to be a reguler pattern. Even so this very light little sporter is doing right well.
BIC/BS

[Bullshop]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/bullshop/bbd1a526.jpg

OK OK I know you all want to know the real secret for getting those little 22 boolits to shoot little groups. Well here it is, get little people to load them. This is BS Jr X 3 otherwise known arround here as Nathaniel Moses putting in a little press time. Yet another threatening postal contender.
BIC/BS

[David R]

Way off topic here, but yesterday I asked my son and daughter what they wanted to do today, they both said "go to the range". My 13 year old son just started loading for "Our" 7.65 arg. Cast boolits, no big kick, they both like em.

[felix]

Good show, Dan! Keep on the same trail. I have zero experience in below freezing temps. One thing I might try is a lube with a very minimum viscosity, with the idea of holding pressure only. A lube with a very low melting point might work, not knowing anything else about its characteristics. So, what comes to mind is something like coconut oil/butter or coca butter. Whatever, it should melt in your hand with only a little rubbing in. Stroke the barrel with a light oil before shooting, and dry it half way out. ... felix

[Bass Ackward]

BA
I think I have that one, but seems like mine is more like 70gn.

For some reason I thought it was too long for 1/14" twist.
BIC/BS

Dan,

Ooops. Missed that. I am shooting 12" twist. And mine are about 64 grains if I can remember. It is borderline, that's why it drives well.

Sorry.

[Bullshop]

BA
Well you prompted me to get off seat to look and I found it. It does say 60gn on the box, but I dropped one of the Lyman's of about same shape in the cavity and the RCBS is just a wee bit longer. Even so I will make some up and have a go in the little 1/14" 222 Sako.
BIC/BS

[Bass Ackward]

BA
Well you prompted me to get off seat to look and I found it. It does say 60gn on the box, but I dropped one of the Lyman's of about same shape in the cavity and the RCBS is just a wee bit longer. Even so I will make some up and have a go in the little 1/14" 222 Sako.
BIC/BS


Dan,

Just talked to a guy that says the most accurate bullet he shoots in his old Sako was 70 grain Speers.

Here is where the 3031 should work better. So go for it.

[Bullshop]

Felix
Jumping back over here as not to hijack another thread. I have that Lyman target design and have got it to shoot good but it just seemed a bit more finicky than the others with more full diameter bearing length.Guess I should have tried it faster. I cast up some today from the RCBS mold BA mentioned the one for the 22 Hi Power. In straight WW they go 62gn and .229". I lubed them in a .228" and then ran some through a Lee .225" and they ended up at .2255". They are a perfect fit in fired cases. They slip in with a little push then are a little bit hard to pull out, a real good fit. I have no worries about smoking them. I used 6/1 alloy 6ww/ 1mono at BHN-15 for 4300 FPS from a 30/06 with a Lyman 55gn naked, no check or lube in a sabot for about 2.5 moa. That 2.5 moa is all the better I could ever get that Ruger to shoot with anything. Cant try them tomarrow have got to make a grocery run to fairbanks, 130 miles away. Truth is WW are in season from studd change over at the tire shops so I have to check my buckets, but if I go BSM will require me to do shopping. But hay FB has gun shops too! Was able to run just over 600 today in 75 minutes. Straight ww in the RCBS pot with dial set just a tad below the lowest setting. Cut sprues soft as soon a they dont quiver and they look real good. Tried several on the scale and had only .1 grain variation so this method of running alloy at lower temp but working the mold faster is working good for me. I have been waiting, not patiantly to hear from you on the NEI boolits. That 22/250 should do the trick on makeing them go fast. I sent several different samples to 45 2.1 and I believe he will be looking for input from interested parties to draw up some design ideas. When I finished up the 600+ I cast today I came to the end of the 5000 22 checks I got on the last big order last winter,we do shoot a lot of 22's arround here.
BIC/BS

[PatMarlin]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/bullshop/bbd1a526.jpg

OK OK I know you all want to know the real secret for getting those little 22 boolits to shoot little groups. Well here it is, get little people to load them. This is BS Jr X 3 otherwise known arround here as Nathaniel Moses putting in a little press time. Yet another threatening postal contender.
BIC/BS

Those BS- JR's are great! Where can I buy one?.. :mrgreen:



Dan- if you could, space paragraph your data periodically, and it'll make your info easier to read on the computer with 40 something eyes starting to flounder.. :mrgreen: I know I should, but hate to wear them damn glasses.. :roll:

[Bullshop]

Those BS- JR's are great! Where can I buy one?.. :mrgreen:



Dan- if you could, space paragraph your data periodically, and it'll make your info easier to read on the computer with 40 something eyes starting to flounder.. :mrgreen: I know I should, but hate to wear them damn glasses.. :roll:
PatMarlin
Sorry bout that! I can try to do that but as Mark Twain once said "I try to not let my schooling interfear with my education".

Are we having fun yet?

Hows that?

Whow if my teachers could only see this, that I could actualy be producing data. And I thought I was just having fun.
I recall my guidance counseller telling me I was waisting great potential and I could do whatever I wanted if I would just get an education. So I would ask do you have an edcutation, and do you want to be here talking to me. Hmmm ! No offence to any with higher education, I realy admire that its just that at the time when students had no rights the formal ed route just didnt fit for me.
BIC/BS

[PatMarlin]

Just hit the darn return key a couple times once in awhile Dan..

:groner: :mrgreen: [smilie=l:

[felix]

Hard to say, Dan, what the best design should be. I shot that 225646 so much that I am actually tired of it and sent the mold on to Donald Dye. That is why I am looking for another boolit design. One more accurate in 14 (and 12) twist for slower velocities, and one having more bearing surface. Wally Bator's boolit does that well, but probably won't go too far, such as for your application. So, what to do is the real question. I have some 646 boolits saved up which were made in 2001, and that would be the benchmark because the lead is so old and should be rock stable in terms of accuracy. But, that is no guarantee, either. So, Corky and I will be shooting quite a few designs on a good day soon, I hope. ... felix

[sundog]

Felix, should have brass next Tuesday.... sundog

[drinks]

BS;
IMR 4198 and H 4198 are slower than Reloder7, IMR3031 is the same speed.
Reloder 10X is the same as BLC-2, a favorite of mine, as it does well in so many cases.
I shoot medium and large bore with medium to heavy cast bullets ,occasionally shoot light for caliber cast bullets for plinking , I use a lot of different powders, try anything once attitude.
Air cooled, water dropped and oven treated bullets are all on my menu.
I have done 2600fps with waterdropped in my .243 and .35 Whelen, am working on getting 3000fps with cast bullets of .30 or larger, still trying various lubes, no satisfaction yet, but I have not given up.

[PatMarlin]

I just bought some Reloader 10, and can't wait to give her a shoot in my .223 Howa.

[Bullshop]

Had a bit of a chance to try the fat RCBS for the hi power. In ww checked and lubed it comes in at 64gn and is sized to .2255".
Its about the same length as some of the longer ones the Lyman 60gn rn at.684" the target at .680" the NEI at.645" and the fat RCBS at .669"
The control load has become 19.5gn H 4895 as it has been about the most accurate with all boolits over 50gn, until now. I started with the control load and the fat RCBS and no boolits hit paper, hu! I thought this boolit is too long but look its shorter than the Lyman boolits and they shot great with this load.
OK so go to 3031 and stoke it up and get the spin up. I have been using jacket data with like weight bullets for starters so went to hornady and thier 60gn. OK they tell me to start at 20.1 for 2600 fps and top out at 22.1 for 2900 fps.
Well the starting loads just like the 4895 not on the paper, so what to do up or down. With the words of BA ringing in my head( crank up the pressure) I choose up.
When I hit 21.9 guess what I am begining to get groups on the paper and not too bad. And BA guess what its right where you said the second sweet spot was 6" high and right of zero.
So lets keep going up thinks I so on up to 23.1 which is a full grain over max for a jacket of 4gn less weight. No problem, no adverce pressure sign and some real groups.
There was a cluster of about 3/4" at the second sweet spot bot not consistant. I mean it would put 3 or 4 in this tight group and then throw a wild one. These wild ones were REALY WILD off in the fringes. So lets add more right. At this point arround 24gn the little 222 case is overflowing with 3031 and is being compressed the length of the neck. Still about the same performance some in a group and a scattering of the rest. The ones in a group are a real tight little group but the wild ones are outa here.
At this point I dont know if the problem is ignition or the ragged edge of too much pressure for the alloy which is WWQ. I am still using SRM primers as they have been giving best results. Remember we are now below 0 temp. I dont know what kind of pressure I was pushing but with 24gn I was over the max load listed by Hornady for a j bullet 4gn less weight by 1.9gn.
Again no scary pressure signs but at 24gn was begining to get a very slight crater on the primer but nothing abnormal for top end jacket loads. I am thinking that that little crater on a magnum rifle primer means I was closer to 50,000 psi than to the 40,000 we accept as max for cast.
So thinking something that fits in the case may be better, but what? That 10X BA mentioned would be about right but no got um.
Have some AA# 2015 on hand so here we go. Data from AA says start at 20gn for a 60gn j bullet,OK-try bla bla bla and no paper just like starting loads for 3031. OK lets pour it on.
AA shows a max load for 60gn at 22.2 so go there and one hits the paper. OK more powder and at 23.2 I begin to get groups 3" but groups. Up to 24gn which is a case full half way up the neck and I get a repeat of the 3031 with some grouping and some just going wild. No chrono data as its been too dark but I am itching to find out if the speed looks like 50K like the pressure does.
Through all this I still have not cleaned the barrel and have seen no change in color, no gray still just black with a little lube at the muzzle
I have not been filling all lube grooves and am thinking about trying with even less lube. Has been a bit confuseing for me with this new boolit as for what ever reasons it has ackted so much differently than all the others.
BA I now know you are right, there is a second sweet spot in there at the higher pressure/velocity I just have to figure out how to pin it down.
With enough frustration as a motivator I may try to adjust bedding as I think it is playing a role. That high and right of zero thing is trying to tell me something I think. Gona keep messin with this but today I have to work, WORK!!! as Maynerd would say in his squeeky painfull voice. Still have a few holes to patch up on the house before it gets realy cold.
BIC/BS

[StarMetal]

Boy, I hope all this praise about BA's guesstimations sure doesn't go to his already over cavernerous head...har har har.

Joe

[PatMarlin]

"Still have a few holes to patch up on the house before it gets realy cold"

Lordy, Lordy- BS Dan.... and I whine about a little rain.. :mrgreen:

Hangin on every word man (writing looks good too)... Keep it up! :Fire:

[PatMarlin]

Boy, I hope all this praise about BA's guesstimations sure doesn't go to his already over cavernerous head...har har har.

Joe


I call him "Master BA".. :mrgreen:

[StarMetal]

Pat.....I'll just add a "ter" to the end of that and that will make it complete. har har har har

Joe

[David R]

Interesting Mr. Bullshop.

[Bass Ackward]

I have not been filling all lube grooves and am thinking about trying with even less lube. Has been a bit confuseing for me with this new boolit as for what ever reasons it has ackted so much differently than all the others.BIC/BS

Dan,

The difference with this bullet under these conditions is that you have sized away the bore ride portion and now have a stronger design with less unsupported nose weight. Does this bullet now fit your throat? Do you know for sure? You may need to neck ream your brass in order to go bigger if need be.

No, no! Fill all the grooves. The reason you are getting a wild flier is because that bullet is deforming to one side and then rotating outta balance. If you fill them all it will be stronger. IF you think you are over lubed, soften your bullets, but don't cut the lube at these pressures.

[felix]

Sounds good, BA, and just maybe a softer mix will allow a smoother nose dive into the grooves during accleration, to make a more rounded nose out of the muzzle. Hopefully the more rounded nose does not grab wind to blow it apart 50 yards down the line. Lead hardness is a compromise at these speeds, but toughness is not. Need all the toughness (less micro cracks within boolit) we can get to hold the boolit together. ... felix

[Bullshop]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/bullshop/a58744d9.jpg
In regards to improving any designs tried so far I have been pondering the issue of late and have some ideas right or wrong that I think should make for a better boolit for the 22 cals.
With what has been learned so far from shooting and input from BA and Felix I see that most importantly it needs bearing surface. I also see that with these small diameters unsupported length read bore rider is very limited in velocity.
The design I like best so far is the NEI #4, as it has worked well in 1/14" twist at velocities from 1500 to 2500 fps but it could be improved. It has more lube capacity than needed with multiple small grooves and bands. Bass when you said to fill the grooves to make the boolit stronger dont you agree it would be even stronger to fill them with metal?
So the way I would improve the design is to drop a lube groove or two and use wider bands. I have been leaving two grooves empty with this one and even pushing 3000 fps see no problems with insufficiant lube. It also has a crimp groove of sorts at the begining of the ogive that could be eliminated and insrease weight but not length. I would put a very slight meplate, just noticable to enhance game performance and reduce length a bit.

I have posted a pic here of a boolit from a very old mold in my collection. It was from the estate of an old timey boolit caster. All his molds were well cared for but this one showed more use than all the rest. That tells me he must have liked the design as there were others in the same cal.

I dont see this as the perfect design but wanted to show features in it that I would use to improve the NEI #4. You can see it is a plain base so it would become a gas check, and not just a gc but a long shank so there would be a space between top of check and bottom of driving band.

Also I like the stepped shank as I think the checks crimp over the step and stay on better than a straight shank.

OK then there is that nice wide flat bottom groove which I would keep. Then on the pictured design there is a realy nice crimp groove as crimps go but not neaded so that would become another grease groove like the first.

Now you see the part I realy like about this one. It is hard to see in my not so good photo, but look closely in front of the crimp groove and you see a very wide full diameter band(very strong) that goes to the begining of the ogive.
Again I would give it a tiny bit of meplate to shorten length and give good results but not be too destructive on small game as wider meplates can be.

If length is a problem I could live with a slightly shorter ogive radious. Keep the whole package under 60gn and of a length that is proven to work well in 1/14" twist even at velocities well below 2000 fps and there you have my idea of what should be a perfect boolit for all 22 cals FWIW.

BTW - BA - I tried bumping some of the NEI #4 to get a small meplate and shorter length. The nose goes from .219" before to .221" after and I can feel a more firm fit when closing the bolt. And to answer your question no I dont know if the fat RCBS fits my throat at the .2255" sized at but I plan to turn a few necks and see if it will chamber a .228" which is the size of my lube die. Always more stuff to try and more fun to have, God willing.
BIC/BS

[Scrounger]

Bullshop, is that NEI#4 the 75 grain bullet you've had so much success with? If it is, and if you'll 'Honcho' the group buy, I'd buy a Lee Six-banger.

[felix]

Scrounger, I don't think we want a Lee mold for this small of a caliber. We are thinking of having David Mos make us four banger molds out of standard two banger blocks. His stuff is right on the nose for all cavities. But, we pay for it too. So, maybe David will make us a deal if enough quantity, and most especially if he likes the design too. ... felix

[Bullshop]

Scrounger
No the 75gn is #6 NEI the #4 is a 55gn more seuited to standerd twist.
Felix
On this one I dont care about cost I want it right. We shoot so many more 22's than anything else so it will be well used. If you look at the cost say per 1000's fired per year it will be comparitively cheep.
BIC/BS

[felix]

Yeah, Dan, me too. David is probably our most finicky tool maker when it comes to quality. If he will do it, it will be right for us even with a very slight spec change via his tooling experience. The big question is not his asking price per se, but will he do it at all. ... felix

[Bass Ackward]

Bass when you said to fill the grooves to make the boolit stronger dont you agree it would be even stronger to fill them with metal?
So the way I would improve the design is to drop a lube groove or two and use wider bands. I have been leaving two grooves empty with this one and even pushing 3000 fps see no problems with insufficiant lube.

Also I like the stepped shank as I think the checks crimp over the step and stay on better than a straight shank.

BTW - BA - I tried bumping some of the NEI #4 to get a small meplate and shorter length. The nose goes from .219" before to .221" after and I can feel a more firm fit when closing the bolt. And to answer your question no I dont know if the fat RCBS fits my throat at the .2255" sized at but I plan to turn a few necks and see if it will chamber a .228" which is the size of my lube die. Always more stuff to try and more fun to have, God willing.
BIC/BS


Dan,

Understand that I am saying that when you have a groove, fill it because hydrolic pressure will add strength to the bullet design as best as it can. This allows the bullet to size evenly in the die as well as the other sizer .... your throat. Size the base outta square and off you go. I don't think you are stripping or you wouldn't have a group and then a flier. This is either being sized out in the bore or lost in the throat and is why I think you throat is fatter than .226. But even if you can chamber a .228, I would stop at .226 and just bump the lands.

I say to lube at these pressures because you can never tell when you might get a soft bullet. Because you are operating on the top end and shooting in the cold, you don't want any surprises when your barrel warms and or the temp rises. In fact, if your fliers are occuring on the latter shots, it could be temperature causing the friction that causes the distortion. I see this quite often. If you can afford the lube, use it until you see. Then use as soft a bullet as will hold up. My guess is 16-20 BHN.

And .... I would like to see you use some PSB for filler and cut back on the charges a little. The shot buffer improves ignition while it removes some of the pressure on the base. Which leads me into my last comment, I like stepped shanks for applications below 35,000 psi. Above that, I like the thickest shank to help with pressure because it all builds on the base. The RCBS is not my "ideal" choice in a bullet, but the only commercial option available when diameter is needed. Just keep that in mind. I would like no heavier than a 55 grainer to take some pressure off the base. I always advocate light for caliber designs for high velocity use.

Hope this helps.

[Scrounger]

Scrounger, I don't think we want a Lee mold for this small of a caliber. We are thinking of having David Mos make us four banger molds out of standard two banger blocks. His stuff is right on the nose for all cavities. But, we pay for it too. So, maybe David will make us a deal if enough quantity, and most especially if he likes the design too. ... felix

I'm not a Lee fan anyway. David Mos is fine if he'll do it. If not, can I again bring up NEI? Quality, flexibility. They'll even put two different bullets in the same mold.

[felix]

Nothing wrong with NEI, provided they will put 4 boolits into a 2 boolit mold. We are talking coppered iron here, which both NEI and David use. Want the mold to be light and hold heat. ... felix

[Bullshop]

Scrounger
One of my favorite 22 molds was made by Walt, it is a six cylender and a work of art. If only we had guarantee we had such capable hands to count on. We are waiting for Felix to do some shooting and feedback on the #4 and 45 2.1 to do some drawings on possible design from input from any interested parties. If anyone has something to say about what they think will make a perfect 22 boolit now is the time. I guess when we get to that point we go the next step from there. To be honest I was thinking I would milk every brain I could for design help then go it alone and belly up the set up fee with NEI or possibly Veral but a several way split on the fee would be real helpfull. The best bet if possible would be felix's idea with David Mos.
BIC/BS

[felix]

Sundog is involved also. All the testing will be done at his house/range. ... felix

[Bullshop]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/bullshop/c7c80b38.jpg
This is a design I had been considering for a 22 cal. It is from Veral many years ago. He used to offer this design in any cal you wanted in the yellow flyers he used to send out. This one is 50 cal but it would look the same in 22 accept it would have a gas check. Like all his designs lots of bearing surface and well ballanced. With this one I have not been enthusiastic enough to find out how well it realy shoots. At about 640gn and with 85gn old 4831 in a 50/140 Sharps I have shot a couple very nice groups but it can be rather distracting. A 52gn 22 sounds oh so much better.
Felix
After your letter deceided to revisit the Bator. Cast some today in wwq. Was able to get six throws per minute with a good rythem. Went for one hour so must have about 700. Thats perty good for a two cylender, they look good to. Will give them a couple days then fire up the stove in the shootin shack. We have been -20 to -30F for the last few days.
BIC/BS