Why 20 minute bake time?

[30calshooter]

Has anyone experimented with a reduced bake time and where did the 20 minute "rule" come from? I use the shake and bake method using HF red powder, with a toaster oven at 400 F confirmed with a thermometer. Once I place the powdered bullets into the oven, I keep watching till the powder changes to a molten state, the I just give it 3-5 minutes more and remove them from them oven. The wire mesh tray is then dropped from about 1 foot onto a concrete floor (my garage) and allowed to cool for approx 1 minute, then I lift and drop the tray of bullets several times to dislodge the bullets, and then drop them in a non-stick foil lined medium sized foil tray and allowed to further cool. They pass the hammer test and do not peel, so why a 20 minute bake time? Your thoughts and experience is appreciated.

[DerekP Houston]

Erm the "rule" is from the back of the jar. There are instructions on the hf red powder I started with that tells you what temp and how long. Most people have shortened that time with good results.

Does it really save you that much time in the end? 1 bad batch and you wasted all your time casting and coating to save 5 minutes on baking.

[mozeppa]

1 bad batch and you wasted all your time casting and coating to save 5 minutes on baking.
this ^

[30calshooter]

Thanks for the explanation Derek. I was just curious. I'm looking more for consistency in results, and not necessarily for a reduced time. I agree that the time savings is probably not that much. I allow the oven to come up to full temperature before loading a tray of bullets. The oven is then kept at the 400 F temperature for multiple trays over the entire coating session. I typically coat 1.5-2K of bullets in each session. I have found that I achieved consistency by closely watching for the moment that the powder turns to a molten state, then bake 3-5 minutes longer. I have found that baking for longer periods than that causes the bullets to really stick to each other such that they are very difficult to separate. My overall tray cycle time is probably 15 minutes, so you are correct that it does not save much time, and agree that for most, simply setting the timer for 20 minutes will achieve the desired results and is simpler.

[30calshooter]

I see your point Derek and mozeppa, and may have to rethink my process!!

[OS OK]

I see the fellas who were in this PC thing from the start touting a 10 minute bake after the PC melts. I don't sit and watch for that and I start from a cold oven each time. I figure that in that 20 minute time all the boolits lead mass will come up to temp and have time to cure the 10 minutes required at he end of the cycle.
They hammer test, don't leave the PC sheen in the barrel and while the cookies are in the oven I do something else more important...like scratch, fart or slug a cold beer, you know. Another very important couple of points is play loud music from the 60's, do a little jiggle and hold your mouth right...:bigsmyl2:

[DerekP Houston]

I figure that in that 20 minute time all the boolits lead mass will come up to temp and have time to cure the 10 minutes required at the end of the cycle.
hold your mouth right...:bigsmyl2:

That is my logic as well. As the PC doesn't burn the pigment like hitek from overcooking, I just set it and forget it.

[OS OK]

That is my logic as well. As the PC doesn't burn the pigment like hitek from overcooking, I just set it and forget it.

Yeah...I do that all too often with my cold beer!

[KenH]

I have found that baking for longer periods than that causes the bullets to really stick to each other such that they are very difficult to separate.

If the bullets are harder to separate with a longer bake time, doesn't that show the coating is tougher?

[fredj338]

I bake about 14-15m total, never any longer with HF red or any of Smoke's powders. Always works, every time so far. Longer baking time does change the colors though.

[bstone5]

I go with 20 minutes to allow everything to get to 400 degrees, tried to shorten the time but the powder coat was not fully cross linked, had to cook the bullets again to get the powder coat to cross link properly.

A little extra time cooking has not effected the color of the powder coat in my cases.

I cook five hundred bullets at a time and the heating everything to 400 degrees takes some time.

[P Flados]

After I set up PID indication and control, I found that even with preheat, my convection oven temp drops way down, ramps back up and as it approaches the setpoint, the PID starts cycling power to the heater and really slows down getting to the setpoint.

I also found the first appearance change (my HF red first turns dark) occurs right at 350 F. About 10 F higher and it starts to look shiny.

I have settled in on a 390 F setpoint and going for 15 minutes above 350. I just get to the 390 F at real close to the end of the 15 minute period.

On my bigger batches, I now do a short pre-heat just to get things warmed up some. This helps to get a heat up rate about the same as my smaller batches with no pre-heat.

[MediumCore358]

I bake 20 min but 15 min works too. I stick with 20 min due to possible variables like: alloy, bullet mass, ambient room temperature(I've used the oven in 10 degree temps with success @20min), different powders, crowding, and uneven heating within the oven. What ever floats your boat and works go with it.

[mozeppa]

I see the fellas who were in this PC thing from the start touting a 10 minute bake after the PC melts. I don't sit and watch for that and I start from a cold oven each time. I figure that in that 20 minute time all the boolits lead mass will come up to temp and have time to cure the 10 minutes required at he end of the cycle.
They hammer test, don't leave the PC sheen in the barrel and while the cookies are in the oven I do something else more important...like scratch, fart or slug a cold beer, you know. Another very important couple of points is play loud music from the 60's, do a little jiggle and hold your mouth right...:bigsmyl2:

i'm startin' to like you in the buddy sense of like!....i'm a 60's bass player!

[OS OK]

i'm startin' to like you in the buddy sense of like!....i'm a 60's bass player!

You then, know the music well. Songs could be understood, you could sing along, foot thumpin with the bass and they said something to everyone who participates in life, love, tragedy and the entire emotional gamut. Songs became uplifting with hope for the future or even celebration of the moment...what has happened to music, it's noise, irritating...heck even the frequency of the individual notes have been changed...what happened?
Oh...yeah, you can't have a band without that bass, in my shop things start to vibrate when my 250 watt amp kicks in.

charlie

[Walter Laich]

Mine stay in for 10 minutes once they get to 400. Total time is around 20 minutes to heat up from start with a cold oven.
Less total time after that as oven is already hot when changing out trays

[iMigraine]

I was doing 15mins then went to 12mins @ 400 degrees and don't notice any difference. 15mins should be more than enough time at 400 degrees.

[bangerjim]

Don't know where you got that "rule", but for the past 3+ years in all the posts I and many others have done (that worked on developing this process)....we state plainly: "10 minutes at 400°F AFTER the powder turns shiny". Works for me and thousands of others for years. I have no idea where someone somewhere somehow started talking about 20 minutes for baking!!!!! Not needed!!!!!

Don't waste your time and electricity baking for un-needed baking times!!

10 min and that is it. Works for all powders I have tried.

You can waste your time reading back thru all the posts in the threads (you have read them, RIGHT?) but 20 min is not required. Just verify your convection oven temp is 400F with at least 2 different oven thermometers. DO NOT trust the dial on the front!!!!!

[RP]

Guess it depends on how long it takes for the PC to start turning shining the time it takes for that to happen may vary depending on the volume of bullets and tray or the mass and what temp they are when they go in. If its cold out it will take longer then a summer day. So several are just setting timer to 20 mins and putting the bullets in they they are shining in 30 seconds your cooking longer then needed if it takes 5 mins then your cooking not so much longer. I rather just put them in and not start at them waiting for them to turn shiny and just over cook. The stove stays on between batches so whats the big deal how many are baking one batch and shutting the oven down ? Oh I guess it also depends on the type of oven also.

[DocSavage]

400 degrees for 15 min using HF or Smoke's

[fishingsetx]

Im guessing the temp/time is coming from the powder manufacturer? I know the powder that I use (prismatic powders) says 11 mins at 400 for a full cure. By 400, they mean when the base metal gets to 400, not when you put the item in the oven. I would imagine a tray of bullets takes about 5-10 mins to get to 400 even if the powder glosses over before then (mine will gloss after 2 mins at 350) so a 20 min bake might or might not be a full cure. I do know that even on thin stainless, 15 mins at 400 does not equal a full cure and I have problems with the powder eventually cracking (cups, not bullets).

That being said, for the purpose of coating bullets, a partial cure isnt going to matter as long as the powder adhears to the bullet. The only time the powder is stressed is the milliseconds between the trigger pull and the bullet leaving the barrel.

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[RP]

HAMMER TEST if you pass that I would think your good regaurdless of bake time,

[RogerDat]

Small counter top toaster oven unit, heats rapidly but shuts off when door is open. Which is fine because unless I let the bullets cool they don't come off the foil nearly as well or cleanly. I pass hammer test after 18 minutes for the big bullets, more like 15 for the small 223 sized stuff. I'm also only doing around 48 at a batch.

I just set a timer on the phone and try to do something other than sit and stare at the oven. Now if wife is baking cookies.... those I'll watch until the timer goes off. :-)

One of these days I'll find a bigger oven, but this one works, does a good job and cost $5 at Salvation Army store. I'm loading mostly for bolt action or revolver so small works for now. The 223 does have me thinking about having a second tray and rack that I can load with coated bullets while the first rack cooks.

[Tenbender]

Banger has it right. Soon as the powder starts to melt set the timer to 10 min. Good to go. Save the electric !

170727

[William Yanda]

"heck even the frequency of the individual notes have been changed...what happened?"

This doesn't compute. Sure the quantity of cold ones hasn't interfered with communication?

[RogerDat]

Mine are standing up, except for .223 those I have a rack covered with foil with legs on one side so it leans down in front. I put the little fellers in on their sides. Think I get 7 across either way. Standing up I try to leave enough room to avoid the domino effect if one falls.

[OS OK]

"heck even the frequency of the individual notes have been changed...what happened?"

This doesn't compute. Sure the quantity of cold ones hasn't interfered with communication?

Don't let the 'conspiracy' word dissuade your reading...this info is all over the net. I can't carry a note in a bucket but I do understand frequency, resonance, harmonics and how frequency has an effect on us, how music can alter your mood so to speak.



440hz Music - Conspiracy To Detune Us From Natural 432Hz Harmonics? SUNDAY, AUGUST 4, 2013 Share on Facebook Select Language​▼ Most music worldwide has been tuned to 440 hertz since the International Standards Organization (ISO) endorsed it in 1953. The recent rediscoveries of the vibratory / oscillatory nature of the universe indicate that this contemporary international concert pitch standard may generate an unhealthy effect or anti-social behavior in the consciousness of human beings. A=432 Hz, known as Verdi’s ‘A’ is an alternative tuning that is mathematically consistent with the universe. Music based on 432 Hz transmits beneficial healing energy, because it is a pure tone of math fundamental to nature. There is a theory that the change from 432 Hz to 440 Hz was dictated by Nazi propaganda minister, Joseph Goebbels. He used it to make people think and feel a certain manner, and to make them a prisoner of a certain consciousness. Then around 1940 the United States introduced 440 Hz worldwide, and finally in 1953 it became the ISO 16-standard. What is 440 Hz? 440 Hz is the unnatural standard tuning frequency, removed from the symmetry of sacred vibrations and overtones that has declared war on the subconscious mind of Western Man. In a paper entitled ‘Musical Cult Control’, Dr. Leonard Horowitz writes: “The music industry features this imposed frequency that is ‘herding’ populations into greater aggression, psycho social agitation, and emotional distress predisposing people to physical illness.” You just have to go out in the street and take a look around. What do you see? School kids, young adults on their way to work, a woman pushing her baby in a pram, a man walking his dog – and what do they all have in common? iPods or MP3 Players! Ingenious, isn't it? “If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration.” -Nikola Tesla The powers that be are successfully lowering the vibrations of not only the young generation but the rest of us as well. These destructive frequencies entrain the thoughts towards disruption, disharmony and disunity. Additionally, they also stimulate the controlling organ of the body - the brain - into disharmonious resonance, which ultimately creates disease and war. The difference between 432 Hz and 440 Hz. Hear it, understand it. “This unnatural standard tuning frequency (440 Hz), removed from the symmetry of sacred vibrations and overtones, has declared war on the subconscious mind of Western Man.” -L. C. Vincent The Hidden Power of Universal Frequency and Vibration Frequency and vibration hold a critically important yet hidden power to affect our lives, our health, our society and our world. The science of Cymatics (meaning the study of visible sound and vibration) proves that frequency and vibration are the master keys and organizational foundation for the creation of all matter and life on this planet. When sound waves move through a physical medium (sand, air, water, etc.) the frequency of the waves has a direct effect upon the structures which are created by the sound waves as they pass through that particular medium. To better understand the power of sound frequency, watch the amazing video below. “If one should desire to know whether a kingdom is well governed, if its morals are good or bad, the quality of its music will furnish the answer.” -Confucius Sources: Attuned Vibrations (attunedvibrations.com) The Importance of 432 Hz Music (omega432.com) The Rockefeller Foundation’s War on Consciousness through Imposition Of 440 Hz Standard Tuning (medicalveritas.org) Water Sound Images (watersoundimages.com) The Missing Secrets Of Nikola Tesla (knowledgeoftoday.org) Music has a hidden power to affect our minds, our bodies, our thoughts, and our society. When that music is based upon a tuning standard purposely removed from the natural harmonics found in nature, the end result may be the psychic poisoning of the mass mind of humanity. As Kymatica Documentary says, the rediscovered knowledge of the science of sound shows that sound is something more than mere vibratory signals, not only does sound interact with life but it sustains and develops it. It acts as a conduit of conscious intent between people, societies and entire civilizations. Read More: The Healing Forces of Music: History, Theory, and Practice Cymatics: A Study of Wave Phenomena & Vibration The 440 Enigma: The Musical Conspiracy to Separate Mankind from the Divine Nassim Haramein - Sacred Geometry and Unified Fields How ancient Solfeggio Frequencies are Empowering Personal and Planetary Transformation! Revealed: The Part of Our Brains That Makes Us Like New Music Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Google+ ... Read More: http://www.whydontyoutrythis.com/2013/08/440hz-music-conspiracy-to-detune-good-vibrations-from-natural-432hz.html

[bangerjim]

Interesting theory.

I am sticking with 440. We would have to detune all my keyboards and all the guitars, manolins, brass, strings, bass in the bands. And did you ever try to detune a church pipe organ!!!!!!! Or 3 grand pianos.

Most MP3 players will not detune. Or CD players. Or radios. Or TV's. We will just have to live with the ISO standard 440.

Anyway..........I love to "stir" people up with my music performances!

[flysubcompact]

My method involves coating bullets twice (bottom/bands first, top/bands, last) so I'm looking for any shortcuts, timewise. As soon as i see the PC go slick through the glass door, out they come. Same with second coat. I've done about 1500 this way so far. No ill effects.

[jwber]

I run multiple batches back to back, 16 mins from time I put in oven till I take out using HF Red and Black.

[popper]

Because oven cooking uses air to cook (very inefficient) and normal PC coating is on rather large objects compared to our boolits. Takes a while to get to the melt/flow stage (380F) then a short intermediate stage followed by cross link. I don't think the last 2 really take much time but we tend to cook 10-15 min to guarantee compete cure. I did a conduction cooking test couple months ago, IIRC took about 5 min max to do rifle boolits that shot fine. I'll run the clock on the next batch I do

[fishingsetx]

Because oven cooking uses air to cook (very inefficient) and normal PC coating is on rather large objects compared to our boolits. Takes a while to get to the melt/flow stage (380F) then a short intermediate stage followed by cross link. I don't think the last 2 really take much time but we tend to cook 10-15 min to guarantee compete cure. I did a conduction cooking test couple months ago, IIRC took about 5 min max to do rifle boolits that shot fine. I'll run the clock on the next batch I do

I find rhe melt/flow stage is quite a bit lower than that (200-250), but otherwise spot on.

If a thin wax/grease coating will work, any powder coat that has been flowed out and adhears even slightly to the base metal will be fine for bullet lube!

I know I dont get a full cure till about 18 mins or so from room temp in a preheated 400 degree oven on thin stainless steel. I would imagine a solid lead bullet would take even more time for the base metal to reach the 400 degree temp for a full cure. I ran into this problem baking at 375 for 20 mins. everything looked great till the clear coat started cracking a week or two after coating. Again, this wasnt on bullets. it was on very thin 18/8 stainless (yeti, rtic, etc cups).

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[Dragonheart]

My wife says, Read the Instructions"!

Since I already know that's not going to happen I will tell you that the Prismatic Powder website says 10 minute cure time at 400 degrees for their powder. That means making sure your over is at an actual 400 degrees confirmed with an accurate thermometer; not relying on an oven dial. Once the bullets reach 400 and the temperature remains a constant 400 degrees cook for 10 minutes.

Since I have cooked tens of thousands of bullets I know my oven, so I just load the oven, set the timer and unload in a few hours or the next day. Cooking longer is not a problem and cooking a little hotter is not a problem, but under cooking either in temp or time is a problem. Cooking for 20 minutes is really not needed.

[SSGOldfart]

You ever seen paint that looks dry until you touch it,the coating is not for the looks
it's a lubricant so give it time to cure and set.