Broken Fiocchi Case in Resizing 30-30 to 32-40

[DonMountain]

After mostly positive comments on the use of Fiocchi brass, I purchased some from a local dealer to convert from 30-30 Winchester to 32-40 Winchester. Using a set of Lee 32-40 dies, I had easily converted some used 30-30 cases I had laying around unused. I just set up the sizing die in the normal fashion to punch out the primers and resize in one operation and it took minimal effort after using Hornady Unique case lube on the outside and motor mica inside the case mouth. Trying this on the Fiocchi brass, the effort was much higher, and after 9 cases it jammed and when I tried to extract the case it broke off with the neck stuck on the expander ball. So now what do I do and how do I avoid this on future case resizing? I have pulled the expander ball from the die and see that about 1/2" of the case neck is jammed around it. How do I get this off? [smilie=b:

[gnostic]

The better way of case forming is done with a trim die, doing it with a size die causes run-out...

[DonMountain]

The better way of case forming is done with a trim die, doing it with a size die causes run-out...

What does the term "run-out" mean? Since the 30-30 cases are short when converted to 32-40, I was not too concerned with lengthening the cases during resizing them.

[Smoke4320]

use imperial sizing wax or STP (STP applied with QTip) on the inside of the case mouth . You will need to tumble the cases afterwords to remove the lube

[EDG]

Drive your expander into a close fitting hole and it will strip off the old neck.

You can also carefully file a flat on the brass neck until it gets thin. Then you can peel off the old neck as it gets loose.

[DonMountain]

Thank you very much for this information. I will run out and get some STP and then run them through the case cleaner loaded with corn or crushed walnut shells after resizing. And take the expander out to the shop and see what I can do with a fine file to remove the broken case neck. And maybe see if I have a drill bit of the correct size for a hole to strip the case neck off the expander plug. Should I first be resizing the brass without the expander plug and then swab the inside of the neck with STP and then run the expander plug through the neck as a separate operation?

[gnostic]

Run-out means the bullet isn't square with the bore. Anything over a couple thousands will be inaccurate. Most factory ammo has about .007 run-out and as a result normally won't shoot better than about 2 moa...

[country gent]

Check the neck wall thickness on the fiochi brass as thicker brass will expand harder also. A tapered expander plug polished to a mirror finish and well nelow the beck portion of the die helps alot also. The expander ball set to close to neck section binds on the nrass thickness and the die sizes smalle and the expander opens it up there might not be room for the brass between them. a primer and small ampount of pistol powder with a cotton ball or light wad may fire form them out to your chamber better than the die does.

[Bent Ramrod]

I would anneal the cases before another try at case forming. The Fiocci brass is either thicker or harder than the brass you worked with before, or maybe both.

When I tried to make .32-40s out of .30-30s, I found the hardest part to resize was just ahead of the base of the case. It was never as easy as it looked to be.

You might try tapping around the circumference of the mouth of the busted case from the top of the die (where you've removed the depriving punch) with a brass drift or punch. I would dose it with Kroil and leave it for a night first.

[DonMountain]

You can also carefully file a flat on the brass neck until it gets thin. Then you can peel off the old neck as it gets loose.

This worked very easy and quite well. As the brass case neck got thin it started rotating on the sizing ball and slid right off.

[EDG]

If you have a later set of Lee dies with the EZ Z expander with the long taper I would expand them first.
IF you have an older set of 32-40 dies with the big blunt tip on the expander you might want to chuck it in a drill and spin file a long taper on the first half inch or so to let the expander work a little easier. If you have to do this use some 320 or 400 grit wet or dry paper used wet to spin polish expander. Or you can get a new expander for about $4.

Expand the necks and then FL size with the expander in place.
You can also try it your way and see which way turns out the best for you.
The last operation should be a normal FL sizing with the expander used in the normal fashion to see if your necks come out straight with the body.



Thank you very much for this information. I will run out and get some STP and then run them through the case cleaner loaded with corn or crushed walnut shells after resizing. And take the expander out to the shop and see what I can do with a fine file to remove the broken case neck. And maybe see if I have a drill bit of the correct size for a hole to strip the case neck off the expander plug. Should I first be resizing the brass without the expander plug and then swab the inside of the neck with STP and then run the expander plug through the neck as a separate operation?

[DonMountain]

After studying the two destroyed cases, one still intact but wrinkled up, and the other with a broken off neck, it appears that the shoulder was collapsing when I pushed the Lee tapered expansion ball down through the case. Indicating that I was not applying enough or the proper lubrication to the inside of the case. I was using motor mica like I do in my normal case sizing operation. When I tried resizing two of the cases with the expander ball removed the effort was more like resizing a normally fired case and the two cases have almost all of the shoulder removed showing the proper taper for the 32-40 case. The neck is still 30 caliber though and will need to be expanded, but with the shoulder ironed out maybe the case won't buckle at the shoulder anymore and give more support to the neck resizing operation. Of course with a much better lubricant applied inside the case mouth (STP). I have always been reluctant to put anything oil-based inside the case because of its effect on the powder and primers. So I think I will wash them out after the case forming operation with lacquer thinner, let them dry and put them through the case cleaner before doing the final sizing operation with the sizing die including the expansion ball. Anybody have any suggestions to add? I appreciate the help.

[EDG]

I use 99% Isopropyl Alcohol. First the cases are washed in hot soapy water to remove any grit and dirt. Then I rinse in the alcohol and size my cases. The alcohol dries within about 10 mins if the cases are standing at an angle with the mouth down in a loading block. I use a box fan to speed the drying.

Then I size and remove the lube with the alcohol again.

The tapered expanders make a significant reduction in the force needed to expand the neck since the expansion takes place over a longer ram travel.
I have used a tapered expander to open up .300 Win Mag to .416


After studying the two destroyed cases, one still intact but wrinkled up, and the other with a broken off neck, it appears that the shoulder was collapsing when I pushed the Lee tapered expansion ball down through the case. Indicating that I was not applying enough or the proper lubrication to the inside of the case. I was using motor mica like I do in my normal case sizing operation. When I tried resizing two of the cases with the expander ball removed the effort was more like resizing a normally fired case and the two cases have almost all of the shoulder removed showing the proper taper for the 32-40 case. The neck is still 30 caliber though and will need to be expanded, but with the shoulder ironed out maybe the case won't buckle at the shoulder anymore and give more support to the neck resizing operation. Of course with a much better lubricant applied inside the case mouth (STP). I have always been reluctant to put anything oil-based inside the case because of its effect on the powder and primers. So I think I will wash them out after the case forming operation with lacquer thinner, let them dry and put them through the case cleaner before doing the final sizing operation with the sizing die including the expansion ball. Anybody have any suggestions to add? I appreciate the help.

[cabezaverde]

I would size the case until it will chamber leaving the neck undersized and then fire form them.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I think runout can be better described as the neck not being in line with the physical centre of the case body. Either slightly angled or parallel but off-center is harmful to accuracy, but I don't think it can be the cause of this problem. It sounds much more like a brass hardness problem. You don't say whether you or someone else fired your .30-30 cases, but they may have been sized many times without annealing.

I don't think you will get much case lengthening in this operation, which is a pity, as the .30-30 is shorter than the .32-40. So more of something very small on one side than the other is unlikely to be a problem, and again, it is very unlikely to cause case loss.

Assuming you don't want to go for a trim die for a case you won't need to trim, I would use the sizing die with the expander button removed. You could neck anneal after doing this, but I think before is better, since when it comes to expanding you want the neck soft, but it is better if you have put a bit of work hardening into where the shoulder used to be, during the body forming stage.

[EDG]

The official US definition of run out is found in ASME y14.5 Geometric Dimensioning and Tolerancing. It is basically the same definition used in the ISO standard.

If you have an interest in this topic it is explained on line but I do not think I can explain it to beginners, at least not today.

The best way to witness run out is to take a box of 30-06 or 8X57 military ammo with long heavy pointy bullets.

Roll them on a smooth table top. The bullets that hop up and down at the tip are demonstrating run out.
Cull your ammo into run out lots and straight lots and most of the time the straight ammo will shoot better.

[gwpercle]

The moment things get hard going in, STOP , it's just going to get harder to remove and that's when you stick or rip the rim or head off.
Back that case out if any resistance is met. STP may be greasy and messy but it is a great lube.
Try resizing in two or three steps instead of all at once.
CH4D not only sells Trim Dies but also special Case Forming Dies made just to reform brass from one into another caliber. Give them a call and talk to the owner , Dave Davison , about it, he 's very helpful and knowledgeable about forming .
Gary

[DonMountain]

I stopped by WalMart tonight and picked up a small bottle of STP oil treatment, which I assume is the one needed for this case conversion problem I have been having. The original 17 cases that I have were real old, fired cases my brother had given me years ago, and included headstamps of RP, WW, and FC. All of these resized real easily using just the motor mica brushed into the case neck. And after firing I could use the 0.323 pilot and the 30-30 base clamp in my case trimmer to cut them all to the same length. I have fired these 17 cases at least 6 times each in testing loads for the RCBS 170 grain gas checked boolet, and they all resized real easily using the motor mica in the case necks, and Hornady Unique case lube on the outside. The problems all started when I bought new Fiocchi 30-30 cases to resize to 32-40 cases, so the bare, new brass is the problem since I didn't know what lube to use or what procedures were best to make the conversion. So, now I am ready to go tomorrow with all of this to see what process might work out best for me. I am only trying to increase the boolet size and hence the neck size from 0.308 up to 0.321, an increase of only 0.013". So it seemed that a normal expander ball could do that without much trouble. But evidently not if I don't apply the right lubricant inside the case mouth. I appreciate all the information and recommendations you guys are giving me. I would like some more about the possibility of firing the case in the gun after just running them through the sizing die without the expander ball. What powders and grains would you use and what sort of projectile? I thought of trying about 10 grains of Red Dot and using a Lyman 115 grain gas checked 30 caliber boolet to give the case some pressure. But I wasn't sure what would be left in the barrel when I fired one.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The moment things get hard going in, STOP , it's just going to get harder to remove and that's when you stick or rip the rim or head off.
Back that case out if any resistance is met. STP may be greasy and messy but it is a great lube.
Try resizing in two or three steps instead of all at once.
CH4D not only sells Trim Dies but also special Case Forming Dies made just to reform brass from one into another caliber. Give them a call and talk to the owner , Dave Davison , about it, he 's very helpful and knowledgeable about forming .
Gary

Indeed he is, in my experience. This should be one of the easiest jobs in case forming. I have never got around to shooting my .32-40, but I found that a couple of once-fired .30-30 cases sized down very easily in my Rockchucker press without the expander button. Expansion of the neck worked both before and after the body forming. Remember that after firing the neck ID isn't .308 but, in my case, .313. Of course that wasn't a big enough sample to prove that I wouldn't get brass loss if I had to form enough for use. But I saw no reason why it would.

We now know that the Fiocchi brass wasn't previously fired, so clearly the hardness of the brass is the cause of the problem. (It isn't necessarily a fault on Fiocchi's part, as it may be fine for use in a .30-30 rifle.) I doubt very much if they are using a significantly different sort of brass, so it still seems like the result of insufficient annealing, and curable by annealing.

I can remember when just about all case lubes actually were STP, possibly with token additions or possibly not, to justify a lot more than filling station prices. It is such disgusting, tacky stuff that people would only use it if it had advantages over other lubes. Incidentally you can usually get a piece of case off an expander button simply by tapping the brass thinner, and thus expanding it, with a light hammer.

[DonMountain]

I would size the case until it will chamber leaving the neck undersized and then fire form them.

Tonight I resized some of the Fiocchi cases using Hornady Unique sizing lube with the expander ball removed from the sizing die, and then put the expander ball back into the die and using one of those cotton ball sticks, spread a liberal amount of STP Oil Treatment inside the case neck and tried again. The first case was still a little hard to run the expander ball through, but looked ok when done. The second one I did with the same treatment of STP crushed the case just like before. So, the only method I have left to form these cases is to fireform them after running the 30-30 cases into the 32-40 die for resizing. If that doesn't work I guess its back to looking for some good American made cases made by Winchester or Remington. And putting these Fiocchi made cases in the trash.

[leadman]

Sounds like fireforming might be the way to go. I use a fast powder like Unique and fill the rest of the case with Cream of Wheat cereal and thne plug the neck with wax or boolit lube. If I was doing this I would start at 10grs of Unique and try a couple. If they do not form well step up a grain and try again.

[DonMountain]

Sounds like fireforming might be the way to go. I use a fast powder like Unique and fill the rest of the case with Cream of Wheat cereal and thne plug the neck with wax or boolit lube. If I was doing this I would start at 10grs of Unique and try a couple. If they do not form well step up a grain and try again.

Last night I tried fireforming a case, as suggested. In order to create enough pressure to blow the case out to correct neck size, I loaded 5.0 grains of PROMO, a WIN Large Rifle Primer, no filler, and a 115 grain Lyman 311359, sized to 0.309" and lubed with 2500 White Label Lube and a Hornady gas check in the resized Fiocchi case, but with the resizer button left out. So the neck was still at the 30 caliber size. I flared the mouth slightly with a Lyman M die and seated the boolet to the crimp groove and closed the mouth of the case to facilitate loading. After loading the round with the muzzle pointed up, and tapping the rifle to bring the powder down to the base of the case, I fired it. And the 32-40 case came out of the rifle looking like it was made that way! So, now I have to try several more to see if this is the way to go. Although I probably need to figure out how to anneal them also. I thank everybody for your numerous suggestions in helping find a way through this cartridge conversion problem. I am not positive I am there yet but its looking promising.

[old turtle]

I sized 30-30 cases to 32-40 but i found that it is better to start with 32 Win cases. Other than the case mouth you also gain some length due to flattening the shoulder.

[DonMountain]

After fire forming all of my Fiocchi cases using 5 grains of PROMO and a 115 grain boolet, I discovered that I still could not pull the Lee expander ball from the resized case. So I built an annealing machine and used 750 degree Tempalic to check it. The cases resized easily without the expander ball, but putting the expander ball back into the die still destroyed the cases. So I tried running the expander ball in a Hornady 8mm Mauser die down through the resized case neck. And it was easy to do in the annealed cases. So I did several more with the same results. Easy. So, my final conclusion on this entire project is: The expander ball on the long tapered Lee dies has sharp corners where the taper on each end of a straight rod section is very sharp and digs into the brass instead of expanding it gently like the much superior Hornady dies do. Don't buy Lee dies ever again. Buy Hornady, RCBS, Reading, Lyman etc. to avoid the problems I have had with the Lee reloading dies.

[triggerhappy243]

I have to do this to make brass for a rifle I have. stp is too thin for this chore. 30-30 BRASS IS PRETTY THIN ANYWAY. I use the rcbs case lube on the tapered expander ball. goober it up. it is water soluble. your expander ball needs to be a mirror finish smoothe. but also the taper must be long and easy. IT SHOULD RESEMBLE A SHARPENED PENCIL. both ends of the expander must have a radius on it so not to grab the brass when the button is drawn out of the case. boiling hot water with dawn dish washing liquid and a tripple rinse will remove all traces of sizing lube.