I can see daylight thru my primers! WTH?!?

[jasonfb123]

So I have inherited an old(1970s?) Prieta SAA clone imported by Brolin Arms in Pomona in .45 Colt and I noticed it started dragging after firing a few rounds. The primers seem to stick and jam up the gun but not until fired. Unfired rounds rotate without a hitch. I took it apart and looked for damage but all seemed well. No play to speak of and the timing seems good. Just for testing I loaded some fired cases into the cylinder and noticed that I could see daylight thru some of them. What The Heck?!? is what I thought ( I may have used different words). So I then checked on all of my spent brass and many of them were like this. I'd be willing to bet this has something to do with the poor thing jamming after/during firing. What say you?
A few of the conditions.
1) It didn't used to do this. This is a relatively new development.
2) This happens with soft shooting reloads
3) This happens with factory ammo

[Mk42gunner]

Pierced primers. Check the tip of your firing pin. It should have a smooth radius on it.

Since you say it happens with both reloads and factory ammo; my money is on the firing pin either being rough or protruding too far, maybe both.

Robert

[Ural Driver]

That aint good......I have been told to always check the firing pins on guns to make sure that they do not have a sharp point or edge. They are supposed to be rounded like a jellybean, not sharp like a pencil. You might begin there......

[Mica_Hiebert]

File the face of the firing pin untill it is not piercing the primers, little at a time.

[jasonfb123]

I thought about that but would a firing pin grow or stretch? It didn't used to do this.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

There are basically two ways primers can fail. Yours are pierced in the centre, which usually means the main cause is an excessively long or pointed firing-pin. It is hard to judge whether high pressure was a contributing factor without seeing unfired but primed cases, and it is a while since I used unplated primers. But it looks as if pressure wasn't bad. It isn't normally a dangerous condition, and can most often be fixed by stoning the front of the firing-pin to a better protrusion and shape.

The other way is when the centre of the primer detaches itself around the edge of the firing-pin indentation. This one can be due to excessive pressure or to an excessively light firing-pin or weak spring so that the firing-pin is too easily forced back. It is something to watch out for when fitting a lighter (e.g. titanium) firing-pin or hammer in some firearms. An undetectably brief hangfire can also cause pressure to occur as the firing-pin bounces back from the primer. Finally a firing-pin which is excessively flat-fronted or loose in its hole can be a contributing factor to this one.

The second type of failure is the dangerous one. A lot more gas escapes, and in some types of semiautomatic or straight-pull bolt actions there is a slim possibility that gas entering the bolt might cause premature opening. There is also a possibility that the tiny disc of brass could impede the firing-pin fall on subsequent shots. Everything has to be somewhere.

Here is one of the second type very close to happening. It was achieved, probably in a remotely fired pressure gun, during the development of an Improved version of the already monstrous .244 Holland and Holland Magnum.

[Ural Driver]

I thought about that but would a firing pin grow or stretch? It didn't used to do this.


Have you been doing a lot of dry firing?

[JimB..]

Note that the primer strikes appear to be scattered around the primers, makes me think FP has worked loose from the hammer maybe? I'm grasping at straws here, no idea why a FP would grow in length

[44man]

Colt had that problem long ago and the guns would go full auto. It was the pin. Gas would cock the hammer and since the trigger is still back, they just ran.

[Dan Cash]

Colt had that problem long ago and the guns would go full auto. It was the pin. Gas would cock the hammer and since the trigger is still back, they just ran.Won't happen. Those who understand semi autos know that the disconnector prevents that action.

In response to OP regarding his SAA type revolver, do check the firing pin as the tip may have chipped and left it sharp. A new firing pin is in order and is not a difficult or high dollar fix.

[bosterr]

It's strange that you can see daylight. Pierced through the anvil too? What brand primers?

[bedbugbilly]

I'm noticing the same thing JimB is . . . it looks like your primer hits seem to be changing?

Can you post a photo or two of the face of your hammer & firing pin? I'm assuming the firing pin is affixed to the hammer since it is a SAA? Is the firing pin and hammer all one piece or is the firing pin attached to the hammer in some manner?

I don't think I'd be filing on anything just quite yet. If this only started to happen and is "random" . . then there has to be a reason for it starting.

If you are just using your reloads . . . then I might think it was a problem with dirty primer pockets not allowing the primer to be seated all the way, but yet, seated enough to go off. But you state it happens with factory loaded ammo as well.

My Uberti Cattleman has pretty generous chambers and I mainly shoot lighter loads so I do get soot, etc. at times. May be a stupid question but have you made sure that the face of your cylinder where the rim seats is clean with no carbon build up that may set the cartridges back towards the recoil shield just enough to give you punctured primers but still enough space between the back of the cylinder and the recoil shield to allow the cylinder to rotate with unfired cartridges? Does the revolver have a cylinder pin bushing insert in the front of the cylinder? Any carbon build up on it and is it seated all the way in so that it does not push the cylinder back towards the recoil shield further than it's supposed to? That may sound silly but there does have to be some play and even it it was only a couple of .001, that might give you a punctured primer.

Try eliminating one thing at a time. If the firing pin looks fine and as it always has . . . then I wouldn't be filing on it. It's easy to take material off of something . . awfully hard to put it back on once it's gone.

Keep us posted please as I'll be curious to see what you come up with. Good luck!

[Tatume]

Won't happen. Those who understand semi autos know that the disconnector prevents that action.

The phenomenon described by 44man is well documented. Must have been quite disconcerting too!

[johnson1942]

bedbugbilly, your a thinker, bet you have the answer. hope we get follow up on this one as want to hear what causes it.

[Dan Cash]

The phenomenon described by 44man is well documented. Must have been quite disconcerting too!

Perhaps you could cite the documentation?

[oldred]

I agree it's a firing pin problem and there are no signs of over-pressure. A few minutes with a stone to shorten and contour that pin should solve the problem, or better yet a trip to a gunsmith who should be able to correct this quickly and easily.

[EMC45]

The full auto pistols were SAAs not semi autos.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Here is what I posted on the other board where you posted it, then decided that was a mistake:

There are basically two ways primers can fail. Yours are pierced in the centre, which usually means the main cause is an excessively long or pointed firing-pin. It is hard to judge whether high pressure was a contributing factor without seeing unfired but primed cases, and it is a while since I used unplated primers. But it looks as if pressure wasn't bad. It isn't normally a dangerous condition, and can most often be fixed by stoning the front of the firing-pin to a better protrusion and shape.

The other way is when the centre of the primer detaches itself around the edge of the firing-pin indentation. This one can be due to excessive pressure or to an excessively light firing-pin or weak spring so that the firing-pin is too easily forced back. It is something to watch out for when fitting a lighter (e.g. titanium) firing-pin or hammer in some firearms. An undetectably brief hangfire can also cause pressure to occur as the firing-pin bounces back from the primer. Finally a firing-pin which is excessively flat-fronted or loose in its hole can be a contributing factor to this one.

The second type of failure is the dangerous one. A lot more gas escapes, and in some types of semiautomatic or straight-pull bolt actions there is a slim possibility that gas entering the bolt might cause premature opening. There is also a possibility that the tiny disc of brass could impede the firing-pin fall on subsequent shots. Everything has to be somewhere.

Here is one of the second type very close to happening. It was achieved, probably in a remotely fired pressure gun, during the development of an Improved version of the already monstrous .244 Holland and Holland Magnum.

169954

As people have said on this thread, yours is pretty clearly a firing-pin problem, but the question has to be why it took to doing this when it wasn't delivered that way. The firing-pin ought to be fitted with a cross-pin, and all those hammer-blows would have tended to move it in the opposite direction, if any. Depending on this, simply modifying the firing-pin tip might be the wrong thing to do. Some have been suggested, but in a revolver not made by the heirs of Col. Colt, it could just be that there wasn't a good flat-to-flat fit between hammer and the front of its slot, and it got peened enough to let the firing-pin come further forward. That would be a piece of luck, really, as it legitimizes the normal treatment of the firing-pin tip.

I also was surprised to see daylight in the strict sense of the term, through one of the primers. But the strike is a little off-center, and it might be that the gaps around the edge of the anvil could do that. As to the position of the strike changing, it might be that the OP has taken them out and put them back, or even that some of them have rotated due to friction on the breech face. Lots of cases, especially reloaded ones, make contact only on an edge of the case head. Firing and resizing doesn't often entirely rectify this - if you think it needs rectifying. It may only amount to a thousandth or so difference in headspace.

[35remington]

Brian Pearce documented Colt revolvers going full auto in an edition of Handloader. 44man's suggestion has verification.

[44man]

Yes SSA and I have yet to find a dis-connector in one! :kidding:
But the suggestion about peening so the pin extends too far is a good one. Some guns do not take kindly to dry firing and even shooting a few brands will show wear and battering. The frame where the pin hits could be mashed a little. Best is for the hammer to stop on the frame but they can still mash metal. Remember when a Quarter was beat with a spoon enough to make a ring?

[RoyEllis]

Won't happen. Those who understand semi autos know that the disconnector prevents that action.

Those who truly understand (and work on) semi auto pistols know the disconnector won't always prevent that action.
Just a couple weeks ago a neighbor came over, he had done a "trigger job" on his RIA 1911 and now it was full auto. Long story short...a weakened sear spring leg, mal-adjusted trigger over travel screw and sear & hammer engagement massively improperly stoned does in fact render a safe pistol into a machine pistol from he!! that's seriously scary (3rd round up in the air, no clue where 4 thru 7 went off to).

[jasonfb123]

Here are some more photos. Perhaps you all see something I don't, wouldn't be the first time :)
169971169972169973169974

[bedbugbilly]

jason - looking at your photos, I am guessing that the firing pin is "pinned" into the hammer? Every pistol is different and I'm certainly not familiar with yours (Pietta - mine is a Uberti Cattleman). Just a thought though . . . if the firing pin is supposed to have some movement in it . . . i.e. when the hammer falls the opening in the frame "guides it" to the primer . . . is there any chance it could be crudded up and does not have the movement it is supposed to? What makes me ask this is the off center strikes on the primers. A pierced primer would allow even more soot/crud to be expelled backwards through the firing pin opening and thus into and around the firing pin. Just a wild thought . . . .

[GONRA]

GONRA sez some striker fired pistols (Lugers for example) have small firing pin diameters.
These can easily pierce primers depending the brand.
When handloading, have to test to "get it right".
Firearm is Just Fine....

[jasonfb123]

Good thoughts one and all. I have cleaned it pretty well but now I think it is time to break it all down and soak it in that orange smelling green stuff from the folks at Slip 2000. If that doesn't do it I guess it is off to the smithy she goes. I will make sure to remove the firing pin fromt he hammer and clean that pocket out very well. I'll also pay close attention to the cylinder bushing and all.
Thanks,
I'll let you know if it works.
Jason.

[w5pv]

If you can pull the firing pin take your calipers or mic's and take about .005" off the pin from the protruding end and smooth it up.This should fix your problem

[claude]

Get'cher'self a dremel and Bubba thet thar fahr'n pin down jest a mite.......Heh!!

[str8wal]

Won't happen. Those who understand semi autos know that the disconnector prevents that action.

Horsehockey!!! I purchased a used 1911 off of G-Bro a few years ago and once it arrived I took it to the range, along with my daughter to do some shooting. The first few rounds went fine and were on target and then on the next press of the trigger she went rat-a-tat-tat. Brit looked at me kinda funny and said "is it supposed to do that"? I said nope, and promptly put it back in the case. I posed a question over on the 1911forum and was told to put a little bend in the sear spring. Now this gun had an aftermarket trigger in it so it wouldn't surprise me if the previous owner also tinkered with the spring as well in an effort to reduce the trigger pull weight. Once I did as instructed the gun has been flawless.

[Tatume]

Get'cher'self a dremel and Bubba thet thar fahr'n pin down jest a mite.......Heh!!

Don't do it.

[bedbugbilly]

Those that want to discuss "semi autos" . . . perhaps you should start another thread? The OP's problem deals with a SAA style "revolver". Not trying to start a "stir", but it is getting a little confusing! LOL

[44man]

Measure the pin protrusion with the hammer all the way forward. It should be .055" to .060".
Some fellas even go shorter as long as ignition is not affected.

[Sensai]

With theses tired old eyes it's quite possible that I'm seeing things, but it looks to me like there's a chip missing on the portion of the frame where the hammer face hits. It also looks like the matching face of the hammer may be peened a little. I would suggest that the firing pin protrusion from the back shield be checked. Be sure that the trigger is held all of the way back and that the hammer is pressed forward when the pin protrusion is measured.

If you take the cylinder out after firing a full cylinder load, without removing the cases, you can get a better idea of where the pin is striking the primers. I think that it will be consistent, but I think that your timing is off a little. Just a guess.

Gary

[runfiverun]

check the bushing the pin goes through.
that peening from repeated blows, and allowing the pin to go further forward is common.
I would suspect that is the problem not the firing pin.

[Geezer in NH]

I see flow back into to big of a firing pin hole. Take it to a gunsmith the firing ping hole is to big either get it bushed or get a firing pin that big.

[jasonfb123]

I like this one. Seems to satisfy all of the symptoms. Thanks.
I see flow back into to big of a firing pin hole. Take it to a gunsmith the firing ping hole is to big either get it bushed or get a firing pin that big.

[GONRA]

GONRA recognizes that this thread is a REVOLVER PROBLEM but believes similar principles apply to all our firearms.
Changing primer manufacturer cured this “Puncturing Pinhole Problem” in one of my Lugers.
(Striker Fired Lugers have tiny diameter firing pin tips.)
Almost certain primer cup metallurgy was different in some unknown fashion.
MAYBE it will fixup some of you Revolver Guys too?