It puzzles me a bit...

[Digital Dan]

One of the more frequent post themes here seems to be the conundrum of finding a load/bullet/alloy that will work in gas guns or other autos with fast twists and small calibers such as the .223 or .300 AAC for subsonic work. I see no harm in pursuing such things, but as often as not it presents as an individual new to casting/loading/guns in general. Some even hope to make the actions cycle with reduced loads.

I puzzle about what drives such entry level pursuits of something better developed by deeply experienced hands. It baffles me.

A myriad of cartridges and guns exist which are easier starting points. More than a myriad actually, the numbers of easy viable cartridges are legion.

Well, I'll go scratch my head a bit and get ready for an upcoming 100 yard match. Offhand with an old trooper called the .25-20 Single Shot. Action on the Stevens 44 cycles every time I drop the lever.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/Black%20Powder/Firstloads44_zpsc2962617.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/Black%20Powder/Firstloads44_zpsc2962617.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/Black%20Powder/Stevens252050yds_zps00cf3635.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/Black%20Powder/Stevens252050yds_zps00cf3635.jpg.html)

[OS OK]

Sexy looking round, clean assembly.
As to the gas guns, these fellas just don't understand that they need a certain pressure in the barrel at the moment the boolit passes the pressure port…eventually they'll catch on.

Sometimes theres a little more to it than 'stuffin brass'!

[Chev. William]

I, for One, pursue chasing 'obsolete' cartridge Replacements and development of 'abandoned' cartridges and Calibers on a Frugal Budget.

.25ACP (0.615" Case/0.900" OAL)in a STRONG Revolver with a Long Barrel.
6.35x26mmSR Stewart/.25 Magnum auto (1.020"-1.056" Case/1.395"-1.400"OAL) in revolver and rifle.
6.35x28.6mmSR Stewart/.250ALS (1.125" Case/1.395"-1.400" OAL in a revolver and Longer OAL in a Rifle.
6.35x32mmSR Stewart/.250ALRM (1.250" Case/up to 2" OAL in a Rifle.
All formed at home from either ,22 Hornet or 5.7x28mm Parent Brass by Swaging down the case diameters and Trimming to lengths.
.32 'Colt' CF versions of old .32 RF cartridges to used in RF actions converted to CF.
The .32 cases swaged down from .32S&W/.32H&R/.327 Fed. Mag. cases and trimmed to length.
Like I said something to do on a Frugal budget of a Retired Person.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[458mag]

Some folks LOVE to beat there heads against the wall, but be careful. Misery loves company.

[Chev. William]

Think of a .25ACP loaded with a 63 grain Bullet and 3.0 grains of BE-86 out of an Eight Shot Revolver with a 10-5/8" barrel compared to the Typical 50 grain bullet and 1.4 grains of Bullseye out of a 2" barreled Pocket semi-Auto pistol.

Best Regards,
Chev. Willaim

[Handloader109]

Why is it puzzling? Until your post, I'd never even heard of a 25-20 :-)
Where would the average person buy one of these? For sure not Walmart.
(yeah gunshows or maybe for some cartridges, special order)

I do think that most come here with gun in hand wanting to make something work. Just don't know any better. Obviously a single shot will shoot and function much easier than trying to get a semi gas gun to cycle. Simple is always easier

[runfiverun]

well your talking to the AR/Glock generation.
they like the gun and wanna shoot it cheaper [shrug]
same thing we all done when we were kids [30 carbine anyone?]
I bet that 44-40 ammo wasn't none too cheap at 1.25 a box either.
there is a reason they sold 22 rounds by the each.

[Blackwater]

That's some good offhand shooting, Dan! You have my respect. Wish I could still shoot like that offhand!

[williamwaco]

well your talking to the AR/Glock generation.
they like the gun and wanna shoot it cheaper [shrug]
same thing we all done when we were kids [30 carbine anyone?]
I bet that 44-40 ammo wasn't none too cheap at 1.25 a box either.
there is a reason they sold 22 rounds by the each.

. 22 lr @ .43 per box. And we could buy only one box per month.

I no longer have a 25-20, but I sure want my 38 Special ammo to be as cheap as possible. ( without compromising quality.)


.

[Digital Dan]

Why is it puzzling? Until your post, I'd never even heard of a 25-20 :-)
Where would the average person buy one of these? For sure not Walmart.
(yeah gunshows or maybe for some cartridges, special order)

I do think that most come here with gun in hand wanting to make something work. Just don't know any better. Obviously a single shot will shoot and function much easier than trying to get a semi gas gun to cycle. Simple is always easier

It puzzles me that perhaps folks pursue things designed to prove difficult rather the practical. Maybe ambition occurred before education.

Have you heard of the .30-30, or maybe the .25-20 Winchester? Rumor has it they work well in repeaters. Ammo is available in Wally World.

[Mk42gunner]

I don't see a problem with people wanting to get a gas operated gun running with cast. Is it going to be more difficult than a .38 Special revolver with a 148 gr wadcutter and 2.7 gr of Bullseye or 3.0 of W231? Perhaps.

It may also be the only centerfire that the person has. To get an AR to function, you need not only pressure but gas volume at the gas port. Do I want to do it? Not particularly, but it is interesting to read of others experiences.

Robert

[Walter Laich]

I say go for it. As long as they are having fun and not hurting anyone let them pursue their dreams.

in 13 hours I'm going to be having fun playing cowboys and Indians as an 11 year old. Turn 70 in 23 days.

[shooter93]

If everyone did the same things.....it would get pretty boring I think. Many would question why I have guns built when for a WHOLE lot less I could buy a gun that shoots as well or often better. Others would question why you would spend time shooting an "obsolete" caliber when there are so many rounds to duplicate it with less trouble. To each their own.

[mdi]

I believe it comes from folks getting involved with a cartridge, wanting more/different, and not doing a lot of research. I have been reloading for quite a few years and every time I get a "good idea" I start digging. 9 time outta 10 someone has already tried/done and reported/wrote about it. Part of today's computer/internet minded folk just ask a question first, then mebbe some research. Not entirely bad, it's just why we see the questions repeated over and over...

[osteodoc08]

I guess I would fall into the "AR/Glock" generation. Honestly though, I have no desire to persue cast in my ARs. I have them in 223/556 and 300 BLK. I find using J werds satisfactory in them.

What I really like is cast in my lever actions and revolvers. I shoot cast in my semiauto handguns (mostly 1911's in the venerable 45 auto) as well, but prefer my lever actions.

I've picked up a few 30 cal molds to try out in some of my rifles and just recently aquired a 22cal 55gr NOE mold to try out in a 1:12 twist 223 Remmy 700 target gun.

To each there own. I certainly will not poo poo on a fellow caster so long as they are safe about it.

[Digital Dan]

Appreciate the discussion on this. For the record, I do not intend disrespect to those that jump into the fire and recognize that with great skill and attention to detail that cast and fast twist gassers can work. If anything my concern goes to the thought that neophytes might get frustrated and walk away from the sport. It is, by any standard I'm familiar with, easier to start simple and perhaps later on walk on the wild side after becoming experienced. Some are motivated by a challenge, others destroyed. I like to see folks succeed in this pastime.

I'm not expert at casting, not sure what the qualifications are for that crown either. I do recognize some paths are easier to walk than others. I also love practicality. On that basis there are guns in the locker that will never have a lead bullet in the bore, and others that will never see copper. I can kill an elephant or buffalo with either. I doubt I can survive a firefight with a dysfunctional weapon.

Dan

[runfiverun]

for sure a new kid at the game trying to shoot cast in an AR [especially on his own] is gonna give it a go and walk away from it.
it took me quite a while to figure it out and develop a process that works 100% of the time for my rifles.
and I'm stubborn.

[wrench man]

If I ever get off my *** and melt some of my lead, my Marlin 1894 25-20W will see some Lyman/IDEAL 257283 BOOLITS!, I've got a pile of NEW Winchester brass and lots of powder.:cool:
I'll stick to the copper projectiles for my AR's.;)

[WFO2]

I run gas guns like the 450 bushmaster, 300 BLK Out . However my first casting was for 38 spcl and my next will be for the 429421 in my 44 Mag.Been reloading for years but I started at the beginning to learn how to cast . Later as I progress I will PC for my gas guns . This to me is an expansion of reloading knowledge and will give me hours of fun for years to come Lord willing I live that long .

[Digital Dan]

Wrenchman, that 257283 and a Marlin in .25-20 is one of my joys. A tang sight makes it far more precise than some might imagine.

Same bullet used in the SS loads in the first post. Seems both are fond of 30:1 alloy.

[aspangler]

Did the cast in an AR. Got it to shoot pretty well. Found J words for 8 cents each delivered. Bought a BUNCH and never looked back. I still use the cast in my bolt gun to very good effect on whistle pigs out to 100 yards or so. If I will be shooting farther than tat I go back to the J words. Whatever works.

[leadman]

I have worked with the AR15 in 5.56 a bit with Hi-Tek coated boolits. Also did some with wax based lube. Did not take much to get decent results at close to jacketed velocities out of my left hand Stag or my sons gun made from parts. I did find that the hardness of the alloy is critical to prevent leading while maintaining accuracy. Some want to use their scrap lead in this pursuit and it might work, but linotype works every time for me. If I want to match or exceed jacketed velocities then it needs to be heat treated and a Hornady copper gas check used.
I see some of the load data posted for the 300 BO and cringe. Some of it is way to hot even for jacketed bullets. I think this goes unrecognized due to the fact the brass is laying on the ground after being fired and not inspected by the shooter. Some shooters may also lack the knowledge necessary to determine an unsafe load.
I see that many of the shooters having problem with making ammo work in the AR15 seem to be of lesser experience. Fortunately they have come to a very good site where they can post their problems and questions without getting flamed. I do not claim to have the answers for all the woes that beset a fellow when casting and loading but have enough experience to figure it out, or ask here without fear due to the fine folks that help here.

[mdi]

I did quite a bit of research, mostly here, before I loaded/shot any cast boolits in my Garand. I wanted to see what other Garand owners had done to successfully shoot cast. I took note of all the info I gathered and proceeded to find a good bullet/mold/load combo that worked accurately, but the "newness" wore off quickly and I haven't shot any in a couple years. Back to those "sterile" J bullets...

[robg]

I get more satisfaction from using my own boolits .I have to use jacketed for hunting UK law, but that's no reason not to experiment with lead,its a personal choice

[1989toddm]

I love the old 25-20 SS, no I don't have one. Seems like an awesome varmint cartridge, and I just like long straight wall cases. Great shooting, much better than I am capable of.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Smk SHoe]

Some shooters don't have a large shooting budget. One good AR lower and multiple uppers to cover all bases. I like a cast bullet in a 223 Wylde upper for the youngin. She can blast steel plates at 100 yards all afternoon and it doesn't cost me a arm and leg. gets her trigger time and thats what matters. I also have uppers in .223 (2), 5.56 (1), 6.5 grendel(1), 300 BLKOUT (2). have got decent accuracy shooting cast in all of them. I do like to play with some of the older cartridges also, 256 Win Mag, 44-40.

[dtknowles]

I can see how for a beginner loading cast for an AR might be a challenge. Most of us started on a much more forgiving platform. We first learn to shoot. Then handload. Then cast our own bullets. I think I had been handloading for more than a year before I cast my first bullets. All that said, I don't own an AR but I did not have any problems developing a cast bullet load for my SKS (gas gun) of course I had been loading and casting for decades before I got the SKS.

Tim

[RogerDat]

Yes revolver are easier to start with than gas guns, or even any high powered bolt guns. But given that there is a great deal of help and information available on loading for a gas gun, and that they can be successfully loaded with cast, why would one not want to have the proven ability to feed the gas guns that you own?

It does take some research, and some experimentation but with PC, gas checks, decent alloy, and the help of fellow members for load data and troubleshooting you too can know the joy of putting 20 rounds from a magazine into a space you can cover with your hand. With the added security of knowing you can do it as long as the components hold out. Irrespective of what is on the table at gun show, or local Wal-Mart shelves. Or how much they are charging for it.

Who knows you may find that you can cast something that will actually work better, or at the least well enough for you to be secure in having a supply even if you decide to use store bought ammo or components for the majority of you use.

[ole_270]

Wrenchman, that 257283 and a Marlin in .25-20 is one of my joys. A tang sight makes it far more precise than some might imagine.

Same bullet used in the SS loads in the first post. Seems both are fond of 30:1 alloy.

got that right. I'm working with a 110 year old Marlin and a new NOE 257283pb mold. Just starting to try out fairly soft alloy and powder coating. Keeps the backyard gong bouncing but have't tried it on paper yet. Using 9.2 4198 so far

[gnoahhh]

For many years now, I have bought guns with the view of shooting cast bullets in them. The lone exception was the AR-15 .223. I simply have no desire to shoot cast through it, and with bulk purchasing of jacketed bullets it too is rather cheap to shoot also.

My first love is "old" cartridges that lend themselves nicely to shooting cast. Usually with the initials "W.C.F." in the name.

[Geezer in NH]

You know Fudds scare off more new shooters than Diane Feinstein does.

Many I like the old single shots not semi-autos. SO what do your thing but do not dismiss those who do like them.

I have heard all the stuff like this and guys now is the time to stick together more than any time in the past.

Myself I like stuff that goes bang, SS, Semi's, Full auto and favorite is flintlock smooth bores. I do not debase anyone who likes to shoot whatever they want.

[old turtle]

This case was the basis for the R2 Lovell varmint round. It was necked down to a .22 and was popular in the 30s an 40s. I had a rifle in this caliber but at the time no brass was available. It is now. The rifle was a Winchester high wall with target blocks and a very nice custom stock.

[Digital Dan]

I do not debase anyone who likes to shoot whatever they want.

Nor do I, but I went to high school before beginning grad level work in college. OTOH, I suppose a new shooter might get a crash course in learning from mistakes whilst trying to make a fast twist AR shoot subsonic and be anything more than a single shot. I'm not suggesting it is impossible, just unlikely they will succeed.

May be they are new and pinching pennies, I get that, but that platform is the last one I'd recommend to a neophyte. Maybe they got started without a lot of thought or study, something that probably everyone has done somewhere in their life. It simply isn't the best of platforms for such things. I'm guessing there are a bunch of folks out there that picked up ARs awhile back, found out how much fun they are and had a head on collision with financial reality, so they figure to load cast bullets to save some jingle. We all KNOW how that works out. :p

Anyway, I didn't mean to flog a dead pony...do we have any mentors here????? Anyone taken a neophyte under their wing and steered them in a practical direction while they are on the steep up slope of the learning curve? I have several times and have one such effort underway at present. Yeah, you still need to slap them now and then for doing silly things, even if they are 50 years old.

[RU shooter]

I think a lot of folks in the 300 BO game hear of others on the internet shooting cast in their guns and go looking or ask for info about it thinking it can be as simple as loading up those very expensive 220 gr serria MK bullets there buying . They buy the casting equipment the mould and everything else that goes with it , their invested at that point so they try to make it work best they can with the limited knowledge and experience casting and shooting lead they have which isn't much since a lot of them is their first go with lead bullets in anything . Some make it work some throw their hand up and say heck with it and go back to the 30 bucks or more per hundred jacketed bullets . Some have the patience and ability to learn from others that have been there and done that others want instant satisfaction that they got with jacketed . As with anything casting reloading and shooting cast isn't for everyone .

[Moonie]

My 300BO AR has never had a jacketed bullet fired through it. But then I've been casting for 25 years give or take.

[Green Frog]

This case was the basis for the R2 Lovell varmint round. It was necked down to a .22 and was popular in the 30s an 40s. I had a rifle in this caliber but at the time no brass was available. It is now. The rifle was a Winchester high wall with target blocks and a very nice custom stock.

A lot of high wall actions were repurposed to varmint guns in this way "back in the day" and that explains why there are still some available that would have otherwise probably been victim to the WW II scrap metal drives. I personally got one several years ago with a ruined (plugged) barrel, then found enough take-off parts to return it to original configuration. The stock on that one, BTW, won my prize as the ugliest (I do mean BUTT UGLY!) stock I have ever owned, but somebody even wanted that! ;)

For the record, my cast bullets now are mostly for BP carbines and front stuffers in North-South skirmish events or for my various revolvers, but I still speculate occasionally about making cast bullets for my AR-platform guns and my Garand... just haven't needed to yet! :D

Froggie

[dudel]

well your talking to the AR/Glock generation.
they like the gun and wanna shoot it cheaper [shrug]

You got to ask yourself is it worth the headache? Sometime you just want to shoot. I have lead loads worked up for my Glocks (with aftermarket barrels) and AR; but sometimes it's just easier to use plated bullets (so you can loan you're buddy some rounds) or bulk 223 bullets for the AR (mine shoots better with the Hornady FMJBT that you can always find on sale; than with the BATOR).

My revolvers, Contenders and HandiRifles are much more forgiving and easier to work with lead.

If you want the exercise, go for it. Whatever works.

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

I guess I love 'em all.:p No disagreement with the OP. But one of the things I love about the 300 blackout is how it's fairly easy to cast for. Went out this week and averaged just under 1.25" at 100 yards with Lee 312-55-2R. Might not win many matches, and won't compete with Nosler BTs. But it's fun and cheap. Made me smile too. To me that's what it's all about.

[dudel]

Puzzles me as well. I have cast loads that work in my gas guns; but they just for SHTF situations. Jacketed works just fine in the AR and 30 Carbine. I've seen what lead does in a suppressor; don't want to have to clean out gas systems. Besides, I'd rather shoot them than cast for them. Hornady bulk 223 FMJ-BT can be had so cheaply, it not worth it to me to cast those little guys (then lube, size and gas check em).

The most popular guns (ie ARs) are not the easiest to run cast with. Cast loads for my Handis and Contenders are a piece of cake (but then, when's the last time you saw a Handi or a Contender at the range?).

[Strtspdlx]

I'll give you guys a blanket answer. Directly from the generation you speak of. "Instant gratification". In today's world there is no work hard and see results. Like what has been said it's more or less. Ask someone and steal there hard work and reap the benefits. It's Ashame. But who made it this way? I like to know what I'm doing. But trying to find a reloader locally in nj is tough. The only caster I heard of is not with us anymore. So for me I have hardly any choices. That and I'm hard to work with. Kind of always put the chicken before the eggs. Or however that saying goes.

[dtknowles]

I'll give you guys a blanket answer. Directly from the generation you speak of. "Instant gratification". In today's world there is no work hard and see results. Like what has been said it's more or less. Ask someone and steal there hard work and reap the benefits. It's Ashame. But who made it this way? I like to know what I'm doing. But trying to find a reloader locally in nj is tough. The only caster I heard of is not with us anymore. So for me I have hardly any choices. That and I'm hard to work with. Kind of always put the chicken before the eggs. Or however that saying goes.

Blaming Instant Gratification is so Cliché. When I first starting reloading and casting I did no hard work. I got a Lyman press and dies, loaded ammo based on the Lyman manual, saw loads for cast bullets in the manual, bought a pot, ladle, mold and sizer. Rounded up some wheel weights and solder. Made alloy and cast bullets. Loaded them and shot them. Worked good. I was 17 years old. I could read and follow directions.

The hard work was done by the guys who developed the tools and loads many years before. It is only smart to avoid reinventing the wheel.

The Space Program is not where it is because we start from scratch for every program, no we take what is good and improve it but first we practice what those that came before us taught us.

Tim

[fivefang]

I also learned, on a '73win. .38/40 180gr.cast,& watching those with a wrinkle fly in a curve, my '55learning experience on case separation, young/dumb,& not knowing who to ask, in '59 a 6.5" flat top Ruger .44,215gr. Llyman & 27.5 gr.2400,indeed we all learned, I did the hard way!

[Chev. William]

Not reinventing the Wheel is Good advice.
However, When the 'wheel' dates from about 1906 and has not been serviced since their might just be some Improvements in the 'Wheel' to review.

My Pet Case In Point: the .25ACP/6.35 Browning Cartridge and its firearms.
This Cartridge, when loaded by factory, is "optimized" for a 2" barrel in a "Blow-Back" action.

Way back in the Pre-WW1 era a few rifles were made to fire this Cartridge.
They aren't being made today because the Cartridge is NOT "optimized" for a Rifle.

Now throw MODERN design Rifles and Revolvers into the Thought pile.
An old Marlin Model 62 fired CF Cartridges of 40,000psi MAP ratings.
Think about a Model 62 re-barreled and converted to take the .25ACP
hand loaded to 40,000psi MAP using a heavier bullet, like one of the
65 Grain or 74 grain Jacketed ones sized to .251". I bet There IS a
performance increase if a Slower range Powder is used and optimized
for a 22" or 23" Barrel length from this "Locked Breech" Lever gun.

Or consider a Ruger new Model Convertible "Single Eight" chambered
in .25ACP.with a Long Barrel of 10-5/8" length.
A factory Cartridge is a soft Muzzle Blast, like a 22LR.
A Hand Load of a 63 Grain Lead FP bullet over 3.0 grains of BE-86 has
a Different character entirely.
I don't yet know what the Velocity is but the recoil and Muzzle rise is
greater. I will be firing some samples across a Chronograph soon.

Power Pistol may also work in this Revolver and Cartridge.
But Not in the Lesser Quality Blow-Back Semi-Auto pocket pistols
with the Short Barrels.

Best Regards,
Chev. William