Who has wierdest mil surp rifle

[Depreacher]

Come on now,

Sorry about using the word weird. I should have said exotic or uncommon. Everyone will enjoy something you don't see everyday.
Pull it out of the closet and admit it's yours. If you actually shoot it (and why not?), let us know about it. Ya know, like nomenclature, Ammo specs and reloading problems, grouping ability, age, sights, innovations, and aggravations of shooting/operating it. Even a few words will be fine. What do you have???
I see where a newcomer, Dutch Mosin, has a Swiss Vetterli , and a Beaumont. My exotic rifle is the Murata rifle type 20 (or 22?) 8X53R tubular feed 8 shot bolt action I am restoring.
Remember the "cheap scope" thread I started 3 or 4 years ago??? Whoooeeee, did I catch it for that from the leupold gang, until a couple of Well respected members stepped in and rescued me. Wonder what this will do? Preacher

[MT Gianni]

I'll go for weird and uncommon. I have a 98 Mauser, Bruno with Persian markings in 8x57. Can't be more than several million of those. I don't shoot it because mil-surps don't really turn my crank and I bought it for a project action. I'm going to get my flak jacket and hard hat now, anybody got an asbestos suit? Gianni

[waksupi]

I believe the Asperly Aimless in it's military configuration may well be the oddest ever. It has special peculiarity and value, if chambered in the .38-45 Short Polish MAgnum.

[SWIAFB]

I know of a couple of Asperly Aimles that are looking for a new home , Buckshot has one and WAPSUPIE has the lube grooves for it . I thought I had found one but it turned out being a destirrly need one instead.

[JeffinNZ]

Depends a bit on where you are the world and the availibility of milsurp.

Here for example, a Garand is exotic as is the 7.5X55 K31. Mosins are a big deal right now but only because there a few coming into the country.

Of course the other side of the coin is you can't hardly give away a sportised Lee Enfield but up until about 10 years ago Lee Enfields were exotic to you guys.

[Ricochet]

I have a 98 Mauser, Bruno with Persian markings in 8x57. Can't be more than several million of those.
Couple hundred thousand is in the ballpark, I think. That's in the range of the total of Turk Mausers, too. And the Czech 98/22s totaled up to 60,000.

[imashooter2]

I've got a G33/40. Not exactly weird, but not real common.

Can't say as I can attest to any loading problems with it. 8mm surplus is so cheap it's all I use.

[twotoescharlie]

1874 French GRAS, a hoot to shoot!!! worst trigger and poorest sights I have ever seen on a rifle.



TTC

[crazy mark]

I've got a Danish Madsen made for Columbia in 30.06 Factory barrel porting, recoil pad and receiver sights. Mines not the navy model with the medallion. Mark

[Pavogrande]

Got a couple not often seen at the range - 8mm Danish Krag, 11mm mausers M71 and 71/84 and one a little different from the K-31s etc, a M89 Swiss long tom.

[JeffinNZ]

1874 French GRAS, a hoot to shoot!!! worst trigger and poorest sights I have ever seen on a rifle.



TTC

The French didn't/don't built service rifles to shoot, just for show.............................[smilie=1:

[Oldeyes]

A lot of milsurps fall into the "uncommon" category because they don't show up for sale anymore. The various 8mms are good examples; I reload and shoot 8mm French Lebel for my Lebel and Berthiers, 8mm Danish Krag for a rifle and carbine, 8mm Siamese Mauser (8x52R), 8mm Portuguese Kropatchek, 8x57J (.318) for a Commission 88.... maybe that's all the 8's....
My current most weird: 41 Swiss rimfire in rimfire, using 22RF blanks for primers. I have centerfired my Vetterlies and Swiss Peabodies, but the trap door action Milbank Amslers are more difficult, hence the rimfire ammo.

[mooman76]

Surprizing to me I don't own any weird military surplus rifle or at least no weirder than the rest of yous. I got the usual K31, M44 and so on. My Trapdoor is a little wierd in design but it was mirrorly a stepping stone to the modern rifles we see today. Now if you were talking pistols, that's another story!

[steif]

Well I don't know about weird, but I have a Blake rifle, made in 1899 from what I've read, at Batavia New york. they were made for army trials, but were turned down. it has a unusual rotary magazine for a Bolt action rifle.
So that's kinda weird almost military rifle...

[Depreacher]

Now we're getting uncommon. Good photo Oldeyes. Where did you come across the .41 rimfire brass with off center .22 rf blank primers??? Did you form it yourself?? A Milbank WHAT???
Lots of good entries here. A Mongolian Mannlicher is bound to show up at any time now. My Murata is looking more everyday common. What else do YOU have?????? Preacher

[Oldeyes]

Preacher- the brass is home modified. I started with fireformed (centerfire) cases made from 348 Win., drilled/tapped/plugged the primer holes with 1/4-28 threaded brass rod( homemade too), then chucked the case off center in a lathe and bored the primer chamber . A labor of love and it is too soon to say anything about case life since the first range trials were yesterday.
The Milbank-Amsler was a trap door style conversion of muzzle loaders, my two are the 1863/67 rifle with 36" barrel, and a "sharpshooter" 1851/67 Stutzer with set triggers and a 30" barrel (I think). More info can be found at:
http:www.militaryrifles.com
I'm not able to take any pics of mine just now, too late in the day for good lighting.
Other oddballs I play with: 42 Russian Berdan for a pair of Berdan IIs, the predecessor of the Mosins. 43 Mauser in a 71/84 Mauser, M1867 Werndl, sporterized Werder. 11mm Gras, yep they're ugly and clunky!! A pair of 577 Sniders....not too odd? How about an 1871 Mauser Dovitis, a conversion to 6.5x53R Daudeteau for Uruguay...
As you may see, I like odd stuff :)
And as to your Murata, that is a hard to find piece that I have yet to acquire (and not cheap!!)

[Depreacher]

THANKS a million for that info Oldeyes. 6.5X53R Daudeteau!!!!!!! I am impressed. I have about worn the pages out on my 1974 copy of Frank Barnes COTW. Thought I knew a little about old military rifles. WHEW! I have got a lot to learn. Hope this thread has been as much fun for others as it is for me. THANKS AGAIN folks. Preacher

[Frank46]

1886 portugese Kropatscheck ( try saying that three times fast) Bought it about 15 years ago. Well it seemed a good idea at the time. Came with about 6 ten cartridge packs of portugese ammo. And a bunch of cartridges with case neck splits. And the bayonet. The split necks I removed the bullets which were a mix of steel jacketed and copper nickle jackets. Think the bullets weigh in at about 250 grs. Funny thing is that while the stock shows its age, the bore shows very little wear from being fired.
So that's my story. Frank

[reboundspring]

Gents,
You guys have some real odd ball rifles.
I have .577 Sniders, and a Danish Rolling Block, but that's all now.
of course mausers, springfields, and mosins, but they are common.
I had a French 1936 in 7.5, but I was embarrassed to take it to the range.
I have an enfield Mk4 No1 that was made by Savage, and brought back from Burma.
It has a native made teak (!!!) stock that weighs about 7 lbs
it nicely groups in a rain barrel at 100 yds!
More power to you guys!!!!

Reboundspring

[Buckshot]

..............Kind of wierd, and also not very common is the various Comblains. I have a 1870's something Comblain carbine made by the Nagant brothers in Liege, Belgium.

http://www.fototime.com/D8C3D628853546D/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/AC591CEC925A2E1/standard.jpg

Picture quality is kinda poor. It's a cute little guy, but due to the compact action the 24" barrel seems much shorter. First order of wierdness is that business hanging down into the action lever. On it's front is the trigger and contained within is the trigger spring, sear, and the hammer spring.

http://www.fototime.com/4A280AA9B475B9D/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/022CFD7381B30B6/standard.jpg

Second oddity is (left photo) that the hammer is shrouded. The shroud is (naturally for the era) all milled steel and is dovetailed into the back of the breechblock. Right photo shows the action open. The way you open it is to stick your thumb all the way through up to the web, and then push the lever down and slightly forward at the same time. A bit odd at first but after a couple times it's no big deal.

http://www.fototime.com/7A12618D703BEC8/standard.jpg

This thing has it's "Works in a drawer" like that TV from the '70s. Look at photo #4 and those 3 screws you see? The top one was added by Brazil and is a lock, or keeper screw like some of the Mauser's had for their action screws. The screw it's protecting from coming loose is the one below it.

This one screw is VERY important as everything pivits on it, plus as added duty it holds all the guts up in the action. Pull that one screw out and the whole shebang comes out the bottom except for the extractor. The extractor is on the 3rd screw. The action is a falling block like the Sharps, etc. Interesting is that teh the breechblock has no connecting link. It's hinged on a the same screw the hammer is on.

The geometery of the machining and the block's movement is such that the breechblock simply moves straight up and down so no link is required. When the action is opened, the hammer is automaticly cocked, and there is no safety except to leave the lever short of fully closed. The hammer describes an arc just short of 90*. In addition the firing pin is carried in the hammer's nose as a seperate part and is easily replaced.

http://www.fototime.com/3D767044200EFF5/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/7C6776752B29618/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/FB833F810B2C0FE/standard.jpg

Now we get to the real wowser part. Looking at the photo of the chamber casting, if you notice something missing, like the NECK you'd be right. There is NO neck in the chamber! No throat or leade or nuttin'. Just a sloopy cavity resembling a chamber (reminds me of the Asperly Aimless, kinda).

Official designation for the cartridge was 11.4x42R. A short but pretty fat specimen. In the center photo shows the steps to make them from 32ga brass shotshells. I made a set of dies for it from the front strut rods off an '87 Chevy Celebrity. Hey, it's was 7/8ths OD and available! In the right photo is a couple rounds ready for fireforming. Due to the pudgyness of the case ahead of the rim, the sticky label is added to take up some of the windage.

This allows the brass to expand evenly all the way around instead of just on one side. This could make your hair stand up, hense the sticky paper. Once fired and expanded they go into the tumbler with some paint thinner added and the labels come right off in an hour or so. Those boolits in the photo are the 300gr Lymans.

A couple other interesting things. The barrel has progressive depth grooves. The bore is .433" from breech to muzzle but the grooves at the breech are .465" and .452" at the muzzle. Another oddity for a BPC rifle is the twist. You might expect something like a 28, 32 or even a 38" twist. However it's a very fast 16".

While the carbine has a few scabs and warts, mechanicly it's in great condition and best of all, the barrel gleams.

................Buckshot

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/8F2D7613C6820E4/standard.jpg

Some 50 yard 10 round targets shot with the Comblain. The Blue Dot target only has 7 rounds as I used 3 to find the target :-) Considering a .465" groove and a .459" boolit, a reasonably close to chamber sizing for the cartridge, no neck in the chamber (the Boolit DID butt the lands), short sight radius and what not, it did pretty well. Sure liked that SR4759!

One of these days (yeah, right!) I should paper patch up some slugs to .468" or so and see wha the little beasty might do.

...............Buckshot

[KCSO]

My oddest so far was a Murata forager shotgun. Although the Vetterli might be #2. In more modern guns I had a Columbian 30-06 once.

[Oldeyes]

Hey Buckshot, feel free to adopt me...
If you did not get in on any Martini-Henry molds on the Brit Forum buy, you can borrow my 468GG and the 465PP I just got.... sounds like they would be just right for your Comblains.

[Buckshot]

Hey Buckshot, feel free to adopt me...
If you did not get in on any Martini-Henry molds on the Brit Forum buy, you can borrow my 468GG and the 465PP I just got.... sounds like they would be just right for your Comblains.

...............Oldeyes, thanks much but I have 4 moulds coming :-) Two fo rthe Snider and 2 for the Martini. At least I think they're SUPPOSED to be coming:-)

...............Buckshot

[Morgan Astorbilt]

This is my most unusual military surplus rifle. It started out as an Italian Vetterli 1870 single shot rifle. These were modified in 1887 by the addition of the four round Vitali box magazine, and the bolt support rail at the rear of the action. The rifle was then renamed the Vetterli Vitali Mod. 1870/87 10.35x 47mm. As you can see, the appearance is much different than the Swiss Vetterli, with its tubular magazine, although both rifles, in original single shot configuration, would probably look very similar.

This particular rifle was built in Turin in 1874. The bulge in the side walls of the Vitali magazine, is caused by the round coil spring, which it uses, instead of the rectangular wire, or folded leaf springs we’re familiar with, which makes me believe this might be the first box magazine ever put on a rifle. The bayonet is an original Vetterli of the 1870’s(took me years to find). The button-type sling is a WW1 Russian, which is typical of the type used on this rifle.
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/vet2.jpg
Below are the original cartridges, as they were issued, eight rounds to a box. The cases appear to be semi-balloon head, Berdan primed, and contain 32.5 gr. of coarse BP about 1F granulation. The 249gr. bullet is multi diameter with a stop ring. The rear portion is.408”dia., front .411” and the stop ring .422”. It measures .965” in length, and has a hollow base .200” deep. This must be designed to expand to fill the bore, which measures .427” in my rifle. The jacket material does not look like gilding metal, it is a light yellow color, resembling some sort of brass with a very high zinc content.
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/vet3.jpg

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/vet4.jpg

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/vet5.jpg
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/vet8.jpg

It is the design of this bullet that is causing me to size my cast boolets with a smaller base diameter. Below are Lyman 429251 255gr. boolets in cases formed from .348Win.brass, along with some trial multi-sized boolets.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/vet10.jpg

I've got the sizing about figured out, got to load up a batch, and do a little shooting with it.
Morgan

[jrgift]

Weird like beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[dominicfortune00]

I've got a Danish Madsen made for Columbia in 30.06 Factory barrel porting, recoil pad and receiver sights. Mines not the navy model with the medallion. Mark

I've got a Madsen too!!

Mine has the medallion on the side of the stock, I didn't know this signified it was a navy model.

The Madsen is also regarded as the last military bolt action rifle, not counting sniper rifles.

[Oldeyes]

Hey Morgan, nice looking Vetterli! I would like to hear how your heeled boolits perform; in my Vetterli Vitali I tried normal 300 grain gas checks with OK results, about 6" at 100 yards.....not too terrible considering my slightly rough throat and those wretched sights, but I have not managed to get back to that project yet to try for improvement. The Italian barrel rifling looks very similar to the Swiss Vetterlies, and I get my best results in my Swiss with slightly undersized RCBS 44-300GCs. For instance, one Swiss with a .435 groove diameter shoots a .430 boolit wonderfully (those tall fat lands must displace a lot of lead!). I suspect that the Italian version will perform similarly, and if I get time to play with mine I'll find out. The groove diam. in my Italian is .424 and I don't have a sizer die in that range (yet).

[Morgan Astorbilt]

OK, Oldeyes, I'll keep in touch. My Vetterli doesn't have the shiney bore most of those Swiss ones do, but the rifling's strong.
Morgan

[357tex]

I have a trapdoor rebarrled to 32 long does that count?

[KCSO]

I made up a trapdoor carbine in 22 long rifle once.

[NickSS]

I have a Springfield 1886 rifle in 50-70 that had civilian sights installed over 100 years ago. Shoots good and still kills game as I used it this fall to kill and elk at 65 yards

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Nick, How about that rainbow trajectory of the .50-70? I've got a New York State Militia Remington RB in .50-70, and at 200 or 300yds, they're really droppin' in from the sky.

Why aren't more of you guys posting photos? I find them interesting as h*ll, and they round out the text.
Morgan

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Hey Morgan, nice looking Vetterli! I would like to hear how your heeled boolits perform; in my Vetterli Vitali I tried normal 300 grain gas checks with OK results, about 6" at 100 yards.....not too terrible considering my slightly rough throat and those wretched sights, but I have not managed to get back to that project yet to try for improvement. The Italian barrel rifling looks very similar to the Swiss Vetterlies, and I get my best results in my Swiss with slightly undersized RCBS 44-300GCs. For instance, one Swiss with a .435 groove diameter shoots a .430 boolit wonderfully (those tall fat lands must displace a lot of lead!). I suspect that the Italian version will perform similarly, and if I get time to play with mine I'll find out. The groove diam. in my Italian is .424 and I don't have a sizer die in that range (yet).

Oldeyes,
A lot of the problem I'm having with bullet size, is that the RCBS dies size the neck down way too much, requiring a .409" bullet in the .428" bore rifle. I've decided to reload as fired, the way I do all my schuetzen rifles. I had 25 primed resized cases, and had to blow them out to see what dia. I should make the sizing die for the rear of the bullet.
I made up some SAECO #442 246gr. RN WW bullets, full length lube sizing them .429" using 50-50 Alox lube. I then sized the bottom two driving bands .417. The cases were primed with CCI # 250's and loaded with 9.5gr. Unique. I just inserted them into the necks by hand, the larger forward drive band acting like a stop ring.
Took them outside, and firing from the bench, got this group of 23 shots on a B19 target at 75 yds. The weather was 85ºF, sunny and calm.
Those sights have to be the worst sights ever put on a rifle, With these old eyes, the rear sight was a blur!
Morgan
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/target3.jpg

[Morgan Astorbilt]

These are the dies I used to form the 10.4x 47R Vetterli brass out of .348Win. I use the swaging dies to reduce the case head dia. from .546" to.538", in an arbor press, and the neck expanders in my Pacific SuperPro, after annealing. After sizing in the RCBS die, I trim to length in my drill press using a Lyman trimmer.
Morgan

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/dies1.jpg

[Morgan Astorbilt]

I was able to limit reduction of the lower two driving bands to .423", keeping the forward bands at .429" Below is a shot of opening up the .417 RCBS die to .423 using a tool post grinder on the lathe. Had to "cut and try" a thou. at a time, checking the sized bullet in a case in the rifle. Took me about 2 hrs., but I'm expecting very good results on the target.
Morgan

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/100_1997.jpg

[Oldeyes]

Morgan, that is some excellent shooting and far better than I would have expected with a heeled boolit. (Or those sights, as a matter of fact!) My own Vetterli has no trouble chambering a .430 GC projectile so I have not had to try the heeled boolit route..... next time out I'll try something close to your load and perhaps a few others; I have an NEI .424-350GC (or close to that weight) and a Lyman 427103 in transit, as well as various 44 cal light weights in the 250 grain range. So far all I have tried is the RCBS 44-300GC over 25 grains of 5744. All I need is time, and that may have to wait until I am bored with my Swiss 41s.
I have found Graf's 8mm Lebel brass an excellent parent case for both the Swiss and Italian Vetterlies as it does not require any work other than neck expanding and trimming. My few 348 Win cases are left overs from another project. I don't have Italian dies yet but either the 41 Swiss or 44 Special work fine for neck sizing.
A tool post grinder has been on my wish list for 20 years, but something else always comes along first to keep me broke....
My rifle is a Brescia made in 1881, sent to Russia in WW1 as aid, where it acquired a heavy coat of shellac and a few Cyrillic stamps, and then was a Soviet donation to Spain in their civil war. Sure wish I could find an affordable bayonet, those suckers aren't cheap!

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Oldeyes Your Vetterli has really been around! Too bad it can't talk. How did you learn about its history? You're right about the bayonets, I got the Vetterli on eBay, when they weren't so anti gun. Didn't bid for it, but questioned everyone listing in "Military Memorabilia", if they knew where I might find one. I did the same for the bayonet for my Remington RB .50-70 New York State Militia rifle, after buying a copy of Jerry Janzen's "Bayonets of the Remington Cartridge Period", to gain some knowledge, and was lucky enough, not only to find a proper bayonet, but an original scabbard, with the black finished leather intact. It was a toss up which rifle to list here as my "weirdest". I'd post photos, but I seem to be monopolizing this thread, with my photos, since not many others are adding them. A shame, I find them really interesting.

Don't know if Ebay still has "Military Memorabilia" as a category, but if they do, you might want to try the same. Some of the people listing, were in Europe, and had some items that are hard to get over here. Not surprising, since all the fighting was done over there.
Morgan

[sav300]

Gentlemen,thank you all for posting about your odd/weird/different rifles.And reloading for same.
Great.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Oldeyes, Thanks for the heads up on the Lebel brass. The larger rim diameter should give better extraction, and it has the beveled base like the Vetterli. It wasn't available years ago, when I started this, and, as a matter of fact, I made a set of forming dies for a customer who used .348 brass, but had occasional extraction problems due to the smaller rim.
Morgan

[Oldeyes]

Morgan, Ebay is still THE source for many gun related items such as bayonets, some parts (no barrels, mags, or banned-by-whim), moulds, and misc. Unfortunately the prices have escalated, an Italian Vetty bayo will fetch over $300 for a nice example. Sigh.... I'm looking for the Vetterli blade bayos (inc. Swiss) but won't spend that much; same story for Werndl and Danish Krag, and a few others.
As to the history of my Vetterli-Vitali, mine has the "Made in Italy" stamp under the rear sight which identifies it as an Interarms import from Spain. There is a good thread on Gunboards with more details: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=42318
I'll have to see about some pics of my favorite things today.

[NSP64]

I have a weird Mil-surp a yugo sks that shoots good[smilie=1:

[Morgan Astorbilt]

I have a weird Mil-surp a yugo sks that shoots good[smilie=1:
Is this with cast boolets? I've never shot anything but the cheap Norinco full patch mill. ammo, that I bought a case of back when I bought my Russian SKS, (with the bayonet still attached). I think those guns qualified as curios or something, 'cause they were the only ones allowed to be imported without taking off the bayonet. Saved me the 5 minutes it would have taken to replace it.:mrgreen:
Morgan

[Oldeyes]

SKS that shoots good!!! COOL!!! What do you feed it? Got a Yugo myself but have not shot it yet, it looks very nice and I'd hate to be disappointed by lousy groups.
Only SKS I owned that shot well was a black painted Russian; I did not like the paint so I sold it and picked up a blued one.....big mistake. It shoots like my Chinese, minute of barn door. I keep telling myself that I should learn how to tweek one for accuracy but I been sucked in to the old hammer-gun and big bore milsurps :)

[NSP64]

Fed it some LEE c312-155-1r cast boolits (161gr lubed and checked) over 22.2gr IMR4895(1750fps) Out of Win brass& primer. Got 1"roup off of bags @ 50yrds.

[Oldeyes]

NSP64, thanks for the info- I'll give it a try "soon", which depends on the length of the project list.
I still want to do some pics of my favorite oddballs but spent the weekend doing roof repairs..... it never ends...

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Morgan, that is some excellent shooting and far better than I would have expected with a heeled boolit. (Or those sights, as a matter of fact!) My own Vetterli has no trouble chambering a .430 GC projectile so I have not had to try the heeled boolit route..... next time out I'll try something close to your load and perhaps a few others; I have an NEI .424-350GC (or close to that weight) and a Lyman 427103 in transit, as well as various 44 cal light weights in the 250 grain range. So far all I have tried is the RCBS 44-300GC over 25 grains of 5744. All I need is time, and that may have to wait until I am bored with my Swiss 41s.
I have found Graf's 8mm Lebel brass an excellent parent case for both the Swiss and Italian Vetterlies as it does not require any work other than neck expanding and trimming. My few 348 Win cases are left overs from another project. I don't have Italian dies yet but either the 41 Swiss or 44 Special work fine for neck sizing.
A tool post grinder has been on my wish list for 20 years, but something else always comes along first to keep me broke....
My rifle is a Brescia made in 1881, sent to Russia in WW1 as aid, where it acquired a heavy coat of shellac and a few Cyrillic stamps, and then was a Soviet donation to Spain in their civil war. Sure wish I could find an affordable bayonet, those suckers aren't cheap!

Oldeyes,
The Graf's Lebel brass came today, and it chambered just fine without any sizing of the base. What a savings of time and energy! They are just .10" longer than the Vetterli brass, I'm thinking about trying them without trimming, the chamber just might be sloppy enough. Have you tried fire forming, or used a neck expander. I'm thinking of 10 or 12 gr, Bullseye, grits or cornmeal, and a half sheet of TP. Since the neck's .32", instead of the .348's .34", they will probably be stretched thinner, and change the amount I have to size the lower driving bands to fit the chamber neck.
Morgan

[Oldeyes]

Morgan, I have not tried fireforming for neck expansion, I have a series of expander plugs to open up the parent case. I strongly recommend annealing your cases before starting as some of the Lebel brass can be a little too hard and may split the necks. My cases sometimes turn out a bit offset up the side but the first firing makes 'em pretty again. My Vetterli has no true neck in the chamber but tapers off into the rifling without the step between neck and throat; make the case as long as will chamber with your bullet of choice.
If you choose to fireform the necks please let me know how it turns out, it will save me time on my next batch!

[turbo1889]

I have one of the old "washer ring action" tube magizine mauser rifles that get this was either originally special order chambered for the Win. 32-spl. rifle cartridge or so expertly converted that I can't tell it was converted post factory. Shoots great by the way -- Bore is standard 8mm Mauser rifling but chamber cut is for the American Win. 32-spl. cartridge.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

This "Weird" thread has taken a weird turn, but in the interest of not losing the continuity, I'll continue on.:killingpc
Oldeyes, I annealed some cases, but instead of using red hot lead, as is my custom, (too dang hot down here today to fire up the pot), I used a propane torch, and dropped the cases into a bucket of cold water. No turntable, just rotated the cases using an old pair of pliers, into which I've cut a groove in each jaw, to hold the cases securely by the rim. This is visible in the photo as a shiney spot.

I'd planned to fill the cases with cornmeal, but after charging them with 12gr. Bullseye, and covering with a wad composed of a whole square of single-ply TP, there wasn't much room left, so I just inserted another sheet, compressing all with a pencil. I'd had good results in the past, neck expanding without any filler other than the TP.

I've positioned, in the photo, three fire formed cases on the left, next to three annealed cases on the right, so you can see the extent of the annealing. Bracketing these cases, on both sides, are cases formed from .348 brass.

As you can see from the results, the necks expanded perfectly, but the sidewalls could have used a bit more annealing, although I'm sure that when these cases are fired with a bullet, they will fill out completely. If not, I'll let the heat run down the case sides a bit further on the rest of them.
I guess I won't have to use my expanding plugs.
Morgan
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/fireform1.jpg

[Morgan Astorbilt]

These are the same three fire formed cases, after being fired with a 10.0gr. charge of Unique, behind a 255 gr. bullet. I'll process the remainder of the 100 cases similarly, and trim to a length that uniforms the case mouth(I like to keep the bullet as close to the rifling as possible). Then, a ride in my case tumbler, and they should be good to go.

Again, Oldeyes, Thanks for the tip about the Graff's Lebel brass, it sure made things simpler.
Morgan
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/fireform2.jpg

[jmabbott888]

Lets see, in the weird catagory I've got 2 577-450 Martini Henrys, 1 is a short lever, the other a long lever. 1 is definatly the 577-450 round, the other chambers & fires the 577 450 but always splits cases & I can't afford to split too many lol. The other is a Remington Rollingblock in 43 Spanish, shoots good but has a triggerpull of about 1000 lbs lol, gotta clean up the action. On a calm day the 43 will blow smokerings with the original ammo going thru it, haven't tried reloads yet. I can form both rounds with the forming dies I have & have moulds for both bullets but haven't tried it yet. I got all this stuff from Dad when he passed away & just haven't gotten around to loading for em yet.

[DonT]

I don't know if I would call them the weirdest or the least typcially seen at the range but here goes:
Have an original, unmolested Swiss Vetterli Carbine. Has a crack by the rear tang that needs to be glued but other htan that it is one of 2,500 by Pfenninger. Also have a sporterized M78 that was converted to centerfire which I shoot on occassion and another Swiss Vetterly Rifle that is nice except for the bore that has a few pits but is shootable and has been shot... :-)

Also a Couple of Italian Vetterli's in 6.5 carcano.
A Kropatschek that gets a fair amount of shooting
an 1876 Swedish Roller in 8X58 rimmed Danish in full military configuration.
A GEW 88 (got another as a spare parts gun if you need one, not bolt head)
Finally an Argentine Engineer Carbine, not sure which.

Ya gotta love the old stuff!!!!!

DonT

[Buckshot]

.............Hi DonT and welcome to the board. If your 1891 Argie carbine looks like this:

http://www.fototime.com/F19455D6631D6CC/standard.jpg

It's the Engineer's carbine. If it lacks the extra band for the side mounted sling it's the Cavalry carbine.

If it looks like this:

http://www.fototime.com/E024462DE300D0F/standard.jpg

It's a M1909 and I've heard it described both as a Mountain carbine and a Cavalry carbine.

................Buckshot

[Morgan Astorbilt]

I think this is an interesting thread, and thought I’d keep it alive by posting another of my “weird” military surplus rifles. While not “weird”, it certainly is unusual. This is an 1870 New York State Militia contract Remington rolling block in .50-70. Two features particular to these rifles, which make them unusual, are the “Safety” incorporated in the lockwork. Unlike other RB’s, which after loading and closing the breechblock, are ready to fire, these rifles lower the hammer to a safety notch after closing the breechblock, and have to be re-cocked to fire. This feature was demanded by New York State, but why, I don’t know. It seems rather stupid, in a military rifle, to add one more step when rapid fire may be needed. The other is the hammer spur which is much higher than any other military or sporting RB.

But, the most unusual feature of this particular rifle, is the windage adjustable Buffington rear sight, the same as were used on the Creedmoor Rolling Blocks used by the New York State Militia marksmanship teams at the Creedmoor Range on Long Island. I'm told, that a rifle with this sight was issued to the best shot in each company, either for informal inter-company rifle matches, or maybe for sniping? I don’t know.

I was also, after years of searching, able to find a correct triangular bayonet, and later, an original M1873 McKenny Patent scabbard with the leather in pretty good shape for its age, and most of the black enamel finish intact.

Needless to say, being a native New Yorker, this gun is my pride and joy, besides being a heck of a lot of fun to shoot.

Surely there are many other interesting guns owned by members of a cast bullet forum. How about posting, with lots of photos, so we can all enjoy reading about them? I've always wanted an 1878 Kropatschek, anybody out there got one they would like to share with us?
Morgan
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/RB1.jpg

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/RB2.jpg
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/RB4.jpg
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/RB3.jpg

[Baron von Trollwhack]

I have a nice "legendary" 43 Dutch Beaumont , just waiting for the lotto to buy some brass.

On the Daudeteau(?), mine was close to .258" bore and .268" groove, and you can cobble up Russian cases to work.

BvT

[Hipshot]

I have an NEVER FIRED Italian 6.5 Carcano----JUST DROPPED ONCE !!!!

Hipshot

[oldhickory]

For me, it was a Winchester-Hotchkis 3rd model. Seems like every time I closed the bolt, another blood blister was born.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

I have an NEVER FIRED Italian 6.5 Carcano----JUST DROPPED ONCE !!!!

Hipshot


Hipshot,
If you had to go up against an M1 Garand, Thompson SMG, or M1 Carbine with a 6.5 Carcarno, you'd drop it too. Actually, it was probably dropped to free both hands to hang Benito Mussolini and his mistress. How many cultures in history have had the courage to overthrow and execute their evil dictator, and join the "just" cause? Better read a little WWII history.
Morgan

[fourarmed]

This is an educational thread that I somehow didn't read until now. I have a few that haven't been mentioned, though they aren't as rare. The oldest is a "Zulu" which started life as one of the French percussion muskets, and was converted ca. 1860 to a brass/paper cartridge breechloader similar to a Snider, then converted again to a 12 ga. shotgun in Belgium. I also have a Sharps & Hankins .56 RF. This is the navy model, but is missing the leather barrel covering. I also have a 7mm Venezuelan contract FN Mauser. The Mauser is a great shooter, as you would expect. In my youth I fired the Zulu with modern ammunition, and I still give thanks that I survived. I have not yet tried to do anything with the S & H.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

fourarmed, They sound really interesting. Any chance of getting some photos up?
Morgan

[azduke]

Well my favorite milsurp is one that I've since 2000.Got it for a good price after a friend and co-worker got it at a local gunshow,he paid $350 for it and after finding that I was right on how much it would cost to restore,he sold it to me for$10.it was used as a drill rifle and had the on/off switch welded and dewelded.it is a Remington 1903-A3 Springfield,am in the process of getting the correct Remingtonstock for it.could not find the history on it untill tis past June 6th.Was talking to a friend/neighbor about D-Day and the dad took part in the invasion,he mentioend that he carried a 1903-A3 in the invasion,and drilled him on the the serial number in which he remembered,and it just so happened that the one that I have was the one he carried.

[Ricochet]

What're the odds of that?! :shock:

[fgd135]

I also collect and shoot Russian Berdan II rifles; I have five of them, and shoot them too, well, most of em. My favorite shooter is an 1882 Sestroretsk-made rifle.
Never have fired them with smokeless, but have excellent results duplicating the original Russian military loading using a 370 grain rn paper patch bullet and 75-77 grains of Goex 3fg (with about .2" compression) in Buffalo Arms cases. I had the mould custom made, it casts a .422" diameter slightly tapered bullet, I wrap it with 9# 100% cotton vellum to .430" and use a lube cookie of SPG, averages 1450 fps at the muzzle and shoots to point of aim. This is with 30:1 alloy.
I also use 2 different Lyman bullets, a 365 gr plain base rn bullet out of mould #427103, which casts out to about .429", and another #427103 which casts a 340 grain .426" rn bullet with a gas check base. I don't know why Lyman used the same number for two different bullet designs , but there you go.
I don't own any other really oddball mil rifles, except maybe a Wz 91/98/25, an 8x57 version of the Mosin Nagant made by Poland in the 1920s.

[Gungrubber]

The Best I can do For odd Rifles is My Tc Orman turkish forestry convert Berthier and my Italian Vetterli Conversion

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/jap99/tcormanberthier-1-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/jap99/S6300070.jpg

GG

[floodgate]

fgd135:

That #427103 (also listed as #424103 in some of the Ideal Handbooks) is something of an "off again / on again" item; it was made as #427103 through 1904 in the old fixed-block Ideal moulds, with plain base and three grease grooves at 365 grs. "....for the .42 caliber Russian rifles..." and then for a while in the 1950s and again in the 1970s as a special order item, in the Lyman-style separate block moulds. The 1958 "Handbook of Cast Bullets" pictures it with 3 grooves and a definite gas-check base, but in the 1973 "Cast Bullet Handbook" (as posted on Castpics), the photographic illustration looks like a slight bevel base, possibly slightly short-cherried - but it is listed as weighing 400 grs!

Incidentally, has anyone seen or shot one of the original "trapdoor" Berdan I rifles?

floodgate

[fgd135]

Thanks for the info on the 427103. looks like I have one of each mould. The plain base larger bullet is definitely a better shooting bullet for the Berdan II rifle, at least in soft lead. Maybe the gas check version was intended for hard lead, or for another rifle, I think it would be ideal (no pun intended) in a .41 Swiss.
As far as the Berdan I goes, I know of several in collections; don't know anyone that has fired one, though. For one thing, there were very very few Berdan I rifles made, so they tend to be very expensive and are in "collections"; secondly, well, there isn't any commercial ammo available and so they just don't get shot by those collectors.
A Berdan II rifle in "shooting" condition. typical mismatched sn infantry rifle with 30-60% finish averages anywhere from $500-$1000 these days, where as a Colt Berdan I in similar condition, IF you could locate one, would be $3000-$5000. Not too many people shoot those expensive things. Last time I saw a Colt Berdan I rifle for sale it was @$10,000 in excellent condition. (Only Colt made the Berdan 1, which puts it beyond the normal BP collector interest and into the category of a "Colt" collectible).

[scb]

I don't have it anymore, and it still makes me sick to think about it, it was a 16x16x9.3 74R Luftwaffe drilling. I bought it from a gentleman who took it from a German flier who was running away from a crash landed Ju88. After selling it he suffered a bad case of sellers remorse. Being an old friend I let him have it back. Some things are worth more than guns. I only owned it for 2 weeks.

[wonderwolf]

I've loaded for 6.5 carcano
but the oddest one yet is prolly 6.5 JAP...as I had to make brass from 22-250 and turn it on the lathe. I however hope its not the strangest one I have to load for yet.

I would like a

43 rolling block
Martini henry 577/450
1888 commission rifle as well

[Whitworth]

I have two of these -- 1941 Johnsons -- not so weird, but not so common. Here's a pic of one of them:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f196/MarkoR/DSC02272.jpg

[218bee]

Morgan, I really like your New York Militia 50/70 mainly because I've been looking for one for quite some time. Last one escaped me a day a few months ago. Dang!!! I assume you shoot "black" in it??? Wondering what the bore slugs at? Know of any for sale??? Great thread guys keep it going...I love old/wierd..its been many years since I bought a new gun of any kind.......Nick

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Nick, I have shot the "Holy Black" in it, but usually use smokeless. Just don't like the cleanup, and save all my BP for my cannons.
Morgan

[Duce]

Whitworth the 1941 Johnsons make me drool, I can only envy you. But somewhere around this house I have the oldest of all and I do not know if it can be beat. Its a hand size granite rock that good for about 30 feet.

[tinsmith]

This might get a booby prize for wierd.
Back in 1970, I purchased a German Dreyse Needle Rifle. It was dated 1861/1862 and was in very good condition. I spent $100 for it. The .60 cal. bore had four very deep grooves and looked almost square! I developed a combustable paper cartridge using a .670 soft lead round ball on top of a 16 ga. shotgun fiber wad. Mini ball lube was placed between the ball and wad. The wad was slightly drilled to accept a percussion cap. ( A toy cap gun cap was placed in the percussion cap to ensure ignition.) Behind the wad was a load of FFg black powder and a thin card wad to enclose the case. I don't remember how long it took to make the ammo, but it was definately time consuming! Anyway, I shot it and really got some looks at the local gun club!
After owning the Dreyse for about a year, I sold it for $150. I felt good about my sale at the time. I just wonder what that old gun would fetch today? I just looked and found the one remaining cartridge tucked away in my cartridge collection.
My thanks to the person who started this thread. It brought back memories.

[Leef]

Sorta weird, I guess...I just got a Swiss Milbank Amsler...not terribly rare, but from what I read, they're all in .41 Swiss (rimfire). But mine's .43 Mauser -- confirmed by barrel slugging and chamber cast. So that's what's weird, the caliber. It shoots fine with a mild load of 25 grs. 4198 and 370 gr .439" boolit at 1,250 fps.

Anyone know why this oddball is that caliber?

Also, I noted a post re Russian Berdan II rifles. I have one and shoot it with 4198 loads. So far, of the dozen or more BP cartridge guns I own, I've never had to use BP in any -- 4198 with corn meal filler works fine.

Now...if I could get around to making paper cartridges for the Chassepot...:roll:

[dominicfortune00]

I recently bought a 1905 Model Ross Rifle made in 1909.

Really smooth straight pull in full original military condition.

And before anyone says it, the bolt WILL NOT blow out of the receiver in the rearward direction upon firing a round.

That was the 1910 Model Ross Rifle that had that particular problem with a misassembled bolt.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Gun grubber, I had one of those Turkish Forestry Rifles, but couldn't get any three shot clips (I have a good supply of five shot clips, but the three shot ones dried up, so I got rid of it. The Berthier is pretty weird, but I walked into a shop in Sydney a few weeks ago and bought 100 Brass cases. I never thought that I would be able to do that.

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k228/4fingermick/Military%20shooting/BerthierM16Rifle2.jpg

The MAS ain't so rare, but it is odd, shoots like a champ though!
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k228/4fingermick/Military%20shooting/b438df1a.jpg

I have a Remington made Mosin Nagant 1917 which is not so rare, but is in absolutely original condition, I'm 6'3" and it comes way up to my chest, longgggggggg, I had to juggle to get it into the safe I had at the time, ended up cutting a small hole in the top.

I also have a Ross in very good condition. It was imported as a drill rifle, but the Canuk armorer obviously didn't want to destroy the rifle. He removed the barrel and drilled through the chamber a 1/4" in, leaving the action untouched. The barrel has been re-chambered and re-threaded and the wood shortened and the metal furniture re-fitted. It is not obvious, but it is 1/2" shorter than normal. That's weird. First Ross I have ever seen. The rifle is registered of course, but the Firearms registry insist it is a Rossi not a Ross.

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k228/4fingermick/Military%20shooting/22538d01.jpg

Business end look the same as original
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k228/4fingermick/Military%20shooting/1a80aed2-1.jpg

No4 Mk1, converted to 7.62 by the Lithgow Small Arms Factory. They converted a lot for target shooters, but this is a military conversion, a trial run to see if they would be suitable for the Citizen's Military Forces (reserves), but the project never went ahead, not many made apparently. It has only fired 200 odd rounds, but the previous owner filed off the short range peep from the Singer Sight (the dill should have jusy removed it) and used a Central Target Peep Sight (see second pic).
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k228/4fingermick/Military%20shooting/f615d4b3-2.jpg
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k228/4fingermick/Military%20shooting/No4Lithgow7-2.jpg
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k228/4fingermick/Military%20shooting/f615d4b3-1.jpg

[bruce drake]

Ok, This is a Franken Gun but she shoots. I just finished putting a Springfield two-groove barrel on an Type 99 Arisaka action. I just put 4 shots down her barrel yesterday after fitting a Lyman rear sight to it. All were touching at 25yds with the 13gr Red Dot load over 170gr 311291. I'd be interested to play some more with it once I have more time. I had to run home and cook dinner for the dear wife due it being Mother's Day. She enjoyed her meal and I got to go shooting too!

Bruce

[MGD]

Have no uncommom calibers but a 1905 Ross sporter, and A German G-43 with Z-4 scope. And yes I have shot lead through the G-43.

[looseprojectile]

at the gunshow for fifty bucks and wish I hadn't. Didn't know what it was, though I figured it was worth the asking price.
Turned out to be an 1888 Mannlicher straight pull.
Converted to ---------- [smilie=w: .22 long rifle. Someone has even converted the boltface and firing pin. It works. About four times the action needed for .22 rimfire. Makes about the same sense as converting an M1 Garand to .22 Hornet . :veryconfu

Life is good

[walnutred]

Hey Buckshot. I have one of those Chomplains in 7x57. I assume it was made for a SA country but no idea who. Does my Remington Rollingblock carbine in 50 Navy Carbine caliber fit in with this discussion?

[Beekeeper]

I have 2 1888 commision rifles..
Good bores but lousey original wood.
I am in the process of building a 71/84 Mauser and if the wood gods don't turn against me again I will have the stock completed next week.
It is kinda hard to reconstruct a stock from pictures so it is taking longer than I expected.
When I get it done I will post pics so buckshot can critique it for me.

After I finish it I was thinking of doing new stocks for the 88's. Will keep the original wood but wanted to see what they looked like all dressed up.


beekeeper

[Junior1942]

My Turk 38 isn't weird, but maybe the bolt handle is.

http://www.castbullet.com/makeit/photos/m3825t.jpg

[Throwback]

Now that's one I haven't seen before Junior!

[closey]

I have a very nice Kar 88 in the original .318 calibre, not weird but it is the closest i have to exotic.

Closey.

Click the images for more pics....


http://aycu16.webshots.com/image/44375/2002785316340822004_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2002785316340822004)

http://aycu32.webshots.com/image/43831/2002721222397721070_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2002721222397721070)

[BarryinIN]

I have an M1941 Johnson. There are weirder I know, but I've only ever seen one at the range besides mine. I take mine almost every range trip.

The point early in this thread (three years ago) about what is weird one place might not be in another is a good one. And it can change practically overnight too. I remember being at a Vintage Highpower match about 20 years ago and we all marveled over two K-31s at the match because all of us there had seen only a handful between us. Ten years later, a gun shop up the road had a rack full of them.

Aw, heck. I dug up an old thread without realizing it. I had ran a search, left the room, forgot about it, came back and saw this thread title and didn't notice it wasn't a currently active thread. Sorry about that everyone.

[adrians]

The French didn't/don't built service rifles to shoot, just for show.............................[smilie=1:

[smilie=l:

[leadman]

Maybe we will get to see some more "weird" mil surps!

My weirdest are a 71 Mauser and an 1895 Nagant revolver. The Nagant is a labor intensive gun to load for. The Mauser draws attention just from how long it is and the pretty wood.

Lets see some more weird mil-surp porn.

[Donor8x56r]

Very uncommon 1874 Gras factory converted to 8x50R Lebel

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/3726/dsc01029k.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/440/dsc01029k.jpg/)

Very accurate thanks to very clean barrel but with hard trigger and horrible battle sight.

It is marked F on the rear sight and from what I hear that means it's calibrated for training ammo.

Those rifles where converted in 1914 to 8mm Lebel and some of them have been purchased after WW1 by Quebec Papal Zouaves for use as a ceremonial rifle ( along with other make rifles) hence really good condition.

[Reload3006]

I think the K98 is pretty unique. certainly a different approach to a Bolt action.

[Four Fingers of Death]

My Turk 38 isn't weird, but maybe the bolt handle is.

http://www.castbullet.com/makeit/photos/m3825t.jpg

That bolt handle seems just right for you Junior!

My Chinese sister in law was visiting with her hubby and son and she pointed to the big safe in my office. She said that she was pleased that her brother's sister was going to marry such a rich man who needed such a big safe for his money. I put her straight and told her it was a gun safe. Her son asked if he could see the guns and I obliged. As I swung the door open, she spotted a K98 Mauser and pounced on it, opened the bolt to clear the rifle, closed the bolt, holding the trigger down so that the rifle de-cocked, then gave us a pretty snappy rifle drill demonstration. I was gob smacked. She then opened the action and handed me the rifle.

She was a doctor in the Red Army until she retired and followed her hubby to Australia. As a non combatant, she carried a reserve arm and that was a Chaing Kai Shek 8x57! No wonder she knew the rifle, she had been carrying one around with her for over 30 years!

She is about 5'2" tall and as skinny as a rake, the rifle looked huge in her hands, but it moved fluidly in her tiny hands.

[lavenatti]

I've got an old enfield that was converted to a single shot 410 in India, I believe the police there used to use them. (probably still do)

Not so weird in itself but you should see the looks I get at the trap range when I'm hitting clay birds with a "rifle".

[Multigunner]

I've got an old enfield that was converted to a single shot 410 in India, I believe the police there used to use them. (probably still do)

Not so weird in itself but you should see the looks I get at the trap range when I'm hitting clay birds with a "rifle".

I've seen something stranger than that at a local shop, A Japanese Murata converted to use shotshells. I don't know what gauge it was.
It was a pretty ratty wallhanger, so I didn't look too closely.
After seeing that specimen I looked these up and found they were made for Japanese colonists in South America. Brazil maybe, not sure.
I think these had the main spring that was a flat spring housed in a hollow wooden bolt handle. The Japanese didn't get good at mass producing coil springs till some later date.

[skeettx]

Has been talked about, here is a picture of my Werndl

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/MVC-055S2.JPG

Mike

[scrapcan]

skeettx,

I had to look that one up for more info. Pretty neat.

I found this page

http://www.hungariae.com/Wern67.htm

[Four Fingers of Death]

While not all that rare, I have a type 38 6.5 Jap with Quillion Bayonet, complete with crysanthium. I saw a 38 advertised for $AU1995 yesterday and it had the Crysanthium with circles punched around it, indicating it was owned by the Govt, but not the military. Seeing how much mine must be worth, especially with baby stabber (I saw a WW2 propaganda movie when I was about five which would have been 1953 and it showed a Japanese soldier or an actor, bayoneting a baby in China, a mock up no doubt, but a vision I will take to the grave), I best be treating it with a tad more respect.

[Artful]

Well, I've a M38 Mosin-Nagant that's been customized
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/rowdyfisk/Misc/0612112302.jpg
and I was told I was weird for doing it.

Mauser in 7.62x39 taking WASR mags
http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/4374/dsc06117.jpg
Weird bug bit me on this one for sure

I have a SMLE no 4 converted to 45 ACP
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/3556/dsc06030.jpg
is that weird ?

I have a 9mm Large Spanish Destroyer scheduled to be converted to swap barrel
in 9mm luger and 7.62x25.
I'm hoping that's as weird as I get

[wellfedirishman]

1860-1870 approx Nepalese Gahendra in 577/450 caliber.

Great fun to shoot with a 500 grain Lee pointed .459 bullet and 70 grains approx of Black Powder.

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm138/wellfedirishman/Black%20powder/Gahendra4jpg.jpg

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm138/wellfedirishman/Black%20powder/Gahendra6jpg.jpg

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm138/wellfedirishman/Black%20powder/Gahendra5jpg.jpg

[Ed in North Texas]

While not all that rare, I have a type 38 6.5 Jap with Quillion Bayonet, complete with crysanthium. I saw a 38 advertised for $AU1995 yesterday and it had the Crysanthium with circles punched around it, indicating it was owned by the Govt, but not the military. Seeing how much mine must be worth, especially with baby stabber (I saw a WW2 propaganda movie when I was about five which would have been 1953 and it showed a Japanese soldier or an actor, bayoneting a baby in China, a mock up no doubt, but a vision I will take to the grave), I best be treating it with a tad more respect.

IIRC, Circling the Mum with punched circles was used to designate a rifle removed from service and issued to schools for training purposes. It is possible that some new rifles were so marked and sent to schools, but the norm was removal from active service. The Mum showed the Emperor's ownership of the weapon. At the surrender orders were issued to deface the Mum, by whatever means were at hand, to avoid embarrassment to the Emperor. Some were ground off, some were defaced by chisel marks, etc. Usually an intact Mum indicates a weapon lost before the surrender.

[Ed in North Texas]

I guess the oldest of my weapons meets the criteria: a Canadian issued Snider Mark I* Cavalry Carbine.


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_174564ee76eca92848.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2994)

I've tried and tried to get a larger image, just isn't my day to do that.


Snider conversion of a .577 Enfield, lock dated 1861.

This is a great thread, good thing it was resurrected.


Ed

[Four Fingers of Death]

Actually Ed, it worked out pretty well as a thumbnail, comes up a bit bigger. I came across a totally original, completely useable Snider rifle a few years ago. It was in a shop for $AU600, which I thought was pretty reasonable as it still had a bright bore and was in great condition. I had spent way too much money on guns the few weeks preeceeding that and managed to restrain myself. I rang my mate who was just about to finish work some 70 miles away. He got me to put a deposit on it and them jumped in his car drove down and bought it straight away. He has a really nice collection of rifles and restores them beautifully (which makes most collectors cringe). He rust blues rifles beautifully and carefully restores the wood by steaming out dents, etc then finishing in a naural oil finish. He does amazing work and his rifles look incredible. The Snider now looks like a new gun, but looks 'right' and he shoots soft cast boolits through it over ffg.

[Ed in North Texas]

You're right. I didn't know I was making a thumbnail. Yes, there is a difference in restoration and refinishing. This one I plan on doing nothing but careful disassembly and cleaning/lubing. The bore is bright and shining. I have a Mark III Enfield artillery carbine which may get much more. It is covered with small pits and the rear sight leaf (which is also broken) and slider were made at home by someone. I've bought a new rear sight (for a Parker Hale Enfield 2 band reproduction - very close to the original), but have just started on this carbine so I haven't removed the old sight and soldered on the new one yet). The bore is good, shining for all but the last inch or so at the muzzle and sharp rifling. It is a shooter for sure.

[gew98]

A buddy of mine has two minty jap 6,5 pedersen rifles...but he won't let me shoot'em !. He also has a weird 7,5 Kurz caliber Swiss semiauto mannlicher stocked experimental cav alry carbine... really weird booger !. He also has a Mandragon with matching box and drum magazines...he won't shoot any of them dang it !.
Another collector friend has a couple 6,5 Italian semiauto variants...really weird things they are...but he's afraid to shoot them as he's sure something on them will break. He's got a gorgeous jap garand that has a broken extractor...he did it many years ago and since then won't shoot any of his oddball semiautos.
Have three buddies with TuF Gewehr's .... one shoots his with new made brass and ammo ( 13mm ) ... super expensive bullets and brass...but boy what a bang for the bucks !. I definately want a TuF Gewehr one of these days !.
Anything to me with a weird or rare service caliber makes for an interesting shoot if one can obtain or fabricate ammo for same.

[EDG]

Not mine but one of the more interesting and unusual old US Lee Vertical breech rifles.
Let me know if you would like some detailed photos posted.


http://www.19thcenturyweapons.com/1010/long/vblee.html

[koehlerrk]

The only milsurps I own that might be a little odd are my Swiss K31 (stay with me) that has a walnut stock.

My other oddball is my Egyptian Hakim. It's one of about 70,000 made from what I've read, so while it's not rare, it's not real common either.

Both of these old rifles are a blast to shoot, and quite accurate too.

[Haggway]

I have several military weapons. For a different rifle? I have an FN49 in 7X57

[Tallyman]

Unfired condition. Converted at Ishapore (India) military arsenal from .303 British Rifle to a single shot 410 Shotgun, 3 Inch shells. Bright shiny bore.

[Brithunter]

Hey Buckshot. I have one of those Chomplains in 7x57. I assume it was made for a SA country but no idea who. Does my Remington Rollingblock carbine in 50 Navy Carbine caliber fit in with this discussion?

The Boers of South Africa had some 7mm Chomplains.

[Brithunter]

I sold off all my purely military rifles but have two that served with the military although looking like sporting rifles the first is a DWM Plezier Mauser M93 from about 1897:-

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL14/134492/319133/9877161.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL14/134492/319133/9877134.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL14/134492/319133/3195171.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL14/134492/319133/3107639.jpg

7mm Mauser of course.

The next is a Muscat 303 Bore martini made in Belguim for the Sultan of Oman to equip is native forces:-

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v166/Brithunter/Muscat%20Martini%20303/Muscat_Martini_RHS.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v166/Brithunter/Muscat%20Martini%20303/Muscat_Martini_Action_RHS.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v166/Brithunter/Muscat%20Martini%20303/Muscat_Marking.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v166/Brithunter/Muscat%20Martini%20303/Muscat_Proofs_Barrel_RHS.jpg

Niether are common.

[Multigunner]

A friend was asked to look through a large collection of firearms belonging to a wealthy used car dealer.
The car dealer wasn't a gun collector as such, but around here a guy that needed a car and was short on cash could offer to trade one of their rifles to car dealers to make up the difference. I ran across my long gone Krag Carbine that way, a car dealer offered it to me dirt cheap not knowing what it was.

Anyway among the rifles in the car dealers storeroom my friend found a Luftwaffe Drilling , one of those that some German bomber crews carried as a survival weapon.
I never got a chamce to look at it myself, and don't remember much about.
I looked these up once and some at least were made with actions cast from the same alloy used for ME109 landing gear.

[JKH]

I just bought an odd one from milsurpmike, perhaps some of you gents might have some helpful information about it, here goes.

Spanish model 1893 (dated 1896 on receiver ring) made by Mauser @ Oberndorf, square bolt face & bent bolt, stock cut back to sporter lentgh & nose cap reinstalled, hood soldered over front sight base & has straight sided sight with white/silver bead, receiver ring has groove & large "buckhorn" style reat sight added to clip slot ridge. Barrel is full length.

So what's odd you wonder? This old Mauser is a .410 shotgun :-)
It is a very old conversion, close to turn of century for sure. Receiver/barrel/bottom metal have matching #'s, bolt does not but all parts match self. Feed rails have been modified to feed shells & it will hold 3 but only feeds without hitting chamber edge with just 1 shell & it works perfectly then. I haven't shot it et but got some slugs to try, later will make shells from .303 B brass & maybe can make it feed multiple shells from mag, bore is perfect.
Anecdotely Mike says the guy he bought it from said his dad hunted all beasts, even up to elk, etc. In Alaska using .444 Marlin ammo in it, he said he had to get real close though because the smooth bore shot like a musket! ;-)

[turbo1889]

. . . . This old Mauser is a .410 shotgun :-)
It is a very old conversion, close to turn of century for sure. Receiver/barrel/bottom metal have matching #'s, bolt does not but all parts match self. Feed rails have been modified to feed shells & it will hold 3 but only feeds without hitting chamber edge with just 1 shell & it works perfectly then. I haven't shot it et but got some slugs to try, later will make shells from .303 B brass & maybe can make it feed multiple shells from mag, bore is perfect.
Anecdotely Mike says the guy he bought it from said his dad hunted all beasts, even up to elk, etc. In Alaska using .444 Marlin ammo in it, he said he had to get real close though because the smooth bore shot like a musket! ;-)

(Emphasis Added)

I would suggest you slug the bore of that gun and take a chamber cast. Although 444-Marlin shells will chamber in some 410-bore shotgun chambers the boolit is oversize for a true 0.410 bore and it shouldn't work or if it does it might spike pressure even above normal 444-Marlin (which is way above standard 410-bore) pressure levels with jacketed bullets or even worse monolithic non-lead solids. Unless the bore is close to 0.430" instead of 0.410" like a true 410 shotgun or he only used lead bullet loads and never used jacketed or non-lead bullets the chamber or forcing cone could be ringed.

I'm not saying the gun had been damaged since it is after all built on a bolt action mauser action which might be able to take the punishment without problems but usually firing a 444-Marlin loads in a 410 shotgun with a jacketed or non-lead bullet will lead to a damaged gun at the very least. Most can't handle 444-Marlin pressure levels (although yours should be able too considering the action it was built on) much less handle the pressure spike from driving a 0.430" diameter bullet down a 0.410" diameter barrel unless the bullet is an all lead cast boolit which squeezes down a whole lot easier then a jacketed bullet or monolithic non-lead solid. Problem is though that most 444-Marlin factory loads (the ones most probably used) aren't loaded with cast lead boolits but rather jacketed bullets and/or monolithic non-lead solids (dangerous game rounds).

Long story short I would check the bore diameter and if it is much smaller then 0.425" then I would do a chamber cast to be sure all is okay before proceeding. YMMV

If the gun checks out all okay one of the loads I would recommend you try is three round balls of full bore diameter plus 0.002 to 0.003 (for a true 0.410 bore that would be 0.412"-0.413" diameter round ball) cast from hard clip on WW alloy spiked with a little bit of tin and a little type-metal and water drop quenched over a charge of Reloader-7 powder with a stack of hard cards between the powder and the bottom ball and one hard card between each ball in the stack. You can push that load to about 1,400-fps range in a standard 3" plastic shell while still staying within 13-K pressure levels and it is basically the 410-bore equivalent of the Dixie Tri-Ball loads and packs awesome knock down and is like buck-shot on steroids and crack at the same time.

[JKH]

Hey Turbo,

I have to measure the bore still and see whats what, personally I would not bother with trying actual .444 Marlin loads whether the bore is large enough or not, it seems antithetical to use a rifle cartridge in a smooth bore, little lone do so and expect even a modicum of accuracy! I got a kick out of the story though and would not be surprised that it is true, God does protect fool's at times and I can imagine if things were slim a fell would use whatever he had at hand to feed his family.

I will most likely use .303 British cases to form my shells and just yesterday read about the triple ball load you refer to, that seems like a great load although I wouldnt mind a slug type load for plinking at cloaser range (25 yards or so). I will definitely be loading some shot loads as this should be one heck of a chipmonk/squirrel killer in my backyard trees, wont make much noise and a lot safer than a .22!

I'll try to post some pics later on, it is a rather unique piece with decent workmanship, I have seen many examples of German 98k's converted to 16/20/12 gauges but never heard of a .410, anyone else? Other than Ishapore Enfield's of course.

Jeff

[Hang Fire]

Though a little short, the .444 Marlin case makes a great little brass .410 shell for shot.

[Hamish]

Has anyone gotten close to one of these?http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_170694f11d1cd5481d.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3447)

[9.3X62AL]

Has anyone gotten close to one of these?http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_170694f11d1cd5481d.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3447)

Hey, LOOK--a CA-legal AK-47! :)

[Ed in North Texas]

Hey, LOOK--a CA-legal AK-47! :)

You sure? Looks like that mag is detachable. :p

[roverboy]

I've got an old enfield that was converted to a single shot 410 in India, I believe the police there used to use them. (probably still do)

Not so weird in itself but you should see the looks I get at the trap range when I'm hitting clay birds with a "rifle".

A friend of mine had one of those. His was chambered for a odd length (at least here in the states) .410 shell. I don't really own anything wierd. I do have a Johnson 1941. Its rare but not really wierd.

[nwellons]

Nice to see I'm not the only one that shoots a Berdan II. Photo is of my granddaughter last month (she is 5'4" and 115#) shooting one of my Berdans. I only use BP.

Interesting points about the Berdan II are:

Closed bolt position is different from most and there are no separate locking lugs, just the handle.

It is handy to see if it is loaded as you can see the cartridge rim when the bolt is closed.

[Donor8x56r]

nwellons-can we have more detailed pictures of this rifle and ammo for it?

I have heard of Berdan rifles but never had a chance of finding even pictures.Those posted of auction sites are horrible most of the time.

Last Sunday I found Werndl carbine for sale on a local gun show.Excellent condition and wierd/strange action(I'm familiar with Sniders but this rifle was way more complex).It was chambered in a small, police type cartridge(or so I'm told).Owner was making them out of x54R russian cases.Price was way out of my reach...

[Chicken Thief]

Berdan rifle pics here:

http://www.militaryrifles.com/Russia/RBerdan1.htm

http://www.militaryrifles.com/Russia/RBerdan2.htm

http://www.hungariae.com/Berdan.htm

[nwellons]

Those sites are excellent for photos of Berdans.

Cartridge info:

Buffalo arms sells custom cases made from .348 Winchester cases. I think .42 Spanish will fire-form easily enough too.

I use FFg Goex, magnum CCI primers, a Lee .430 310g pistol boolit cast with stick-on lead. It is not authentic looking but shoots well and the Lee mold was the cheapest that seemed like it would throw an adequate boolit. My "shooter" Berdan likes boolits resized to .427. I neck size only, using Lee .44 Special dies and due to a leading problem near the muzzle, now use grease cookies with card wads.

Velocity runs about 1500 fps. I don't target shoot but it hits accurately and consistently at 100 yds. I shoot it about 20 times each monthly range trip.

The Russian load was 78g of black powder, a tallow cookie, and a 370g round nosed paper patched bullet with a muzzle velocity of 1450 fps.

Photo shows an antique cartridge and one of my reloads.

[Donor8x56r]

Very nice Berdans :) Thank you.

You can tell where some of MN features came from.Rear sight looks like one on first model of MN,so do barrel bands,tip of the stock,bolt handle and cocking piece etc.

Maybe one day I run into one.Maybe not to own one but shooting it will be most satisfactory.

[midnight]

My brother bought an old rolling block just because the price was right and it had some really wierd marking on it. I have George Layman's rolling block book (3rd edition) but we could find nothing to help identify it other than it might be Egyptian. When we got Layman's 4th edition we find it is a previously unknown variation. I believe it started as Egyptian but was captured by Ethiopia and had the markings crossed off and changed to Ethiopian. It was then recaptured by Egypt and re-marked Egyptian. A very strange piece of history.

Bob

[ambergrifleman]

Mine is a French Chassepot Needle Fire Rifle, Fires a Paper Combustable Cartridge, with a Internal Musket Cap, Over 83 Grains of FFG Powder. I use a 405 grain, Hollow Base Lead Bullet. :castmine: [smilie=w:

[Andy_P]

Belgian Albini.

[WILCO]

Has anyone gotten close to one of these?http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_170694f11d1cd5481d.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3447)

Here's the story: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/04/22/pakistani-ak-bolt-actions/

[3006guns]

WILCO, I'm glad you posted a link to that article because my first reaction was "Sigh......why?"

The reason is that I've seen more than my fair share of really odd combinations, assembled by nimrods that had a "better idea". At least that one seems to make some sort of sense!

[koehn,jim]

My oldest is a Swiss Vetelli all numbers matching that was given to me by a friend.

[WILCO]

WILCO, I'm glad you posted a link to that article because my first reaction was "Sigh......why?"

You're welcome. I saw the picture and was intrigued to learn more. [smilie=s:

[bydand]

Couple of 71/84 mousers
Couple of Swiss vetterlis (converted to centrefire)
Kropatchek
Swede Rolling block
Egyptian rolling block in .43 spanish
Sniders (rifles and carbines)
Martinis (both carbines and rifles in 577-450 and .303)
Smle chambered for 297/230 Morris
Of course the .410 smles
But also a single shot SMLE.303 Brits gave them to to locals who they weren't quite sure about
Spanish destroyer carbine
Gras
couple of Beaumonts
Swiss K31"s and a M1911
One trapdoor (once had 35 before I switched to enflelds)
there are others, but I just can't remember the rest.
Would love to find a russian Berdan but they seem to be unobtanium around here

OOPS, almost forgot, a No4 Mk1 convereted to 7.62x39 (Black river Armory did the work) It was a bubba when I got it, so no original rifle was harmed.

[JKH]

Turbo,

The muzzle on my .410 Mauser meaures .385" using my dial caliper (no pin gauges), I finally shot it today with slugs @ 25 yards, about 2.5" group about 3.5" to the left (my eyesight as I get older makes me tend to the left w/open sights but not that far). Recoil was just about nil, all in all that's decent grouping but I believe I will try & stick with shot loads, I plan on making shells from .303 British brass. I'm assuming the tight muzzle equates to a fairly tight choke? This should be an awesome backyard squirrel/chipmonk gun :-) I have no doubt that .444 Marlin has been shot in this Mauser but have no intentions of trying it, except perhaps to try the brass.

[turbo1889]

JKH,

10-4 on just going mainly with shot loads. You are correct that the choke on that gun is nearly a full choke (although the actual measurement of the muzzle diameter is probably at least 0.390" since calipers tend to measure significantly smaller then actual measurement when measuring internal diameter of small holes).

I can tell you that the 410-bore tends to pattern much better with higher quality shot. By that I mean high antimony content "magnum" shot and/or copper or nickle plated shot. The import plastic one piece wads for loading 410 also seem to as a rule be significantly better then domestic designs (no insult to U.S. made components I just think the boys on the other side of the pond have done more work with the 410-bore due to its greater popularity over there). In addition there is a new wad that has just become available for 410-bore that is a non-toxic wad for hevi-shot and steel shot and it works pretty good for lead shot as well. For loading thin wall brass cases I usually use a single 43 or 45 caliber (depending on the wall thickness of the brass) nitro card directly over the powder and then put a plastic wad in on top of that with a 45-cal over-shot thin card on top of that. I don't like to crimp the mouths of the brass (or mild steel if reloading the Russian silver and golden bear 410-cases) cases because it makes them wear out faster so I glue the overshot card in rather then crimp it in the mouth of the case. You can get some cheap paste type glue and mix it with some melted bee's wax (about two parts wax to one part glue by volume plus a tiny bit of Crisco to soften the mix if it turns out too hard) to make an excellent waxy paste glue that you can apply with you finger tip to the inside edges of the mouth of the case on top of the overshot card to form a fillet between the top of the overshot card and the inside mouth edge of the case. Works great for me.

And of course there are the round ball slug or multi-ball loads I mentioned earlier. Sounds like you would be just fine and dandy with a cheap Lee 0.395" two cavity ball mold. One ball loaded to 1,800+ fps high velocity for a slug load or three balls loaded to a slower velocity for a buck-shot on steroids load.

Anyway you dice it the 410 can be a very fun little gun if you like to tinker.