Been Thinking on 25-20 wcf

[50target]

Late to the game is single shots but trying to catch up. I',ve managed to accumulate a Stevens 44 in 38-55 with Leatherwood 6x scope. Rifle is a cherry, like new inside and out. Have a Uberti HW in 38-55 and a Uberti LW in 32-20. I am a fan of 32-20 and 25-20 wcf. No current maker of LW in 25wcf that is affordable to me except Uberti, but no 25wcf, so my plan is to buy a Uberti LW in 32wcf and send to our own Mr. Taylor and have him cut bbl back to26" , recut front dovetail and reline to 25wcf. No extractor issues. Also have him D&T for scope if I want to use one. What twist rate or suggestions might the group have.
Thanks
Bob

[square butte]

1 in 12 - For pages and pages of discussion regarding 25-20, go to the Marlin Owners website and see the 25-20 reloaders forum. I believe it's up to 127 pages now. I am having a 25-20 built on a Win 1885 Low Wall action as we speak.

[Greg]

Square butte

I'm intrigued by your choice of twists, which moulds are you using ?

I have a 1894 Marlin in 25-20 Repeater, with a 14" twist. back when it was my only small bore center-fire, I had a Lyman 257312 as my only mould. it was accurate enough for squirrels, an fun but no way was it good at 100 yards.

But, the barrel is total trash from the early Les-Smoke and primers of the day.

I let myself be talked out of the 257312, and have often thought of rebarreling.

with a recently acquired 257420 SC a 14" twist would work but I also have a 25727 HP that casts @ .705" long and a 257205 that is @ .665" long


care to enlighten me ?

[marlinman93]

Why cut the barrel to 26"? I've had a few in .25-20 with 28"-30" barrels, and they shot very well!

[Chill Wills]

Square butte

I'm intrigued by your choice of twists, which moulds are you using ?

I have a 1894 Marlin in 25-20 Repeater, with a 14" twist. back when it was my only small bore center-fire, I had a Lyman 257312 as my only mould. it was accurate enough for squirrels, an fun but no way was it good at 100 yards.
care to enlighten me ?

I won't try to enlighten you, you already know as much as I do. I have had the same experience as you. The longer 80gr and up bullets are not as accurate in general and something like accuracy is much harder to find with the 14 twist.
I have two 1892 Winchesters. They shoot the heavies like the Ranch Dog LEE bullet just OK and the NOE 80gr OK plus a little, but the Lyman 257 420 casts at .610" is no trouble to get good accuracy from. I have a 257 312 that casts a 0.775" long bullet and it is close to hopeless.

I think that even the 13T would help a lot with the 80gr plus bullets. Maybe if the 12 twist liner is easy to come by that would be a goood place to start. I have been interested in making up a 25-20 repeater chambered for one of my unused singleshot actions like a roller or Hepburn. I am getting close but I have not been happy with reamers yet - just need to look at them some more.

[50target]

Why cut the barrel to 26"? I've had a few in .25-20 with 28"-30" barrels, and they shot very well!
It is a matter of personal taste really. Also proportion as seen by me. My 32-20 with the 30" barrel just strikes me as out of proportion. I don't think I would lose enough velocity to make any difference to a paper target, which is what I shoot. The 12" twist looks like the way to go. Thanks for everyone's input. The little 2520 wcf is a fun little cartridge. Have one in Rem. Model 25 , Win 92 and vintage Marlin 94. Just have the SS fever for one.
Bob

[Three44s]

I became enamored with the petite little round back in the '90's. The rifle was the Savage 23B bolt gun, removable magazine.

I hand loaded for it for a time and then the rifle went back home.

After a twenty plus year hiatus, I bought a new MGM barrel in .25-20 Win for my Contender. It's a ten twist and it's slingin' the Speer 87 gr. TNT pretty accurately thus far.

I like reloadable substitutions to .22 lr that work even better than our "little" but hard to acquire friend.

Three 44s

[marlinman93]

It is a matter of personal taste really. Also proportion as seen by me. My 32-20 with the 30" barrel just strikes me as out of proportion.
Bob

It certainly is just a matter of taste. Especially if you shoot a scoped gun. With iron sights the barrel length is a big asset! With a scope not so much. I personally am just the opposite. I dearly love long barrels, and think they not only hold better, but look better! I have a few with 34" barrels, and they really look great to my eye.

[50target]

MarlinMan93, if we all liked the same thing it would drive the marketing guys insane. I agree about the length and sights, scope or not & just may try some glass with this one. All my current guns have tang sights and that is a delight to my eye. I love the little Marlin 94 as it to me is the most balanced rifle in proportions.
Enjoy
Bob

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Late to the game is single shots but trying to catch up. I',ve managed to accumulate a Stevens 44 in 38-55 with Leatherwood 6x scope. Rifle is a cherry, like new inside and out. Have a Uberti HW in 38-55 and a Uberti LW in 32-20. I am a fan of 32-20 and 25-20 wcf. No current maker of LW in 25wcf that is affordable to me except Uberti, but no 25wcf, so my plan is to buy a Uberti LW in 32wcf and send to our own Mr. Taylor and have him cut bbl back to26" , recut front dovetail and reline to 25wcf. No extractor issues. Also have him D&T for scope if I want to use one. What twist rate or suggestions might the group have.
Thanks
Bob

The Uberti is far from identical, internally, to Mr. Browning's masterpiece. But if you have hunting opportunities suitable for prising you away from the Stevens now and again, the remodelling you describe should give you as effective a .25-20 repeater as anyone has ever had.

I agree that it is hard to make an argument against the 26in. barrel and 12in. twist. The 14in. twist might well stabilize the long bullets mentioned, but it is more vulnerable to all the little imperfections of casting that can make the occasional bullet fly off squint, and it will surely be on the shot of a lifetime that it does. It is also more likely to fail with the sharp pointed bullets you might choose to use someday. By contrast light, fast bullets will probably work fine in the 12in. twist, and if they don't, their failings will be more consistent, and show up in casual testing.

[Eutectic]

My father and I argued .25-20's for many years..... He shot a Stevens Model 44 in .25-20 Single Shot and teased me that the .25-20 "Repeater" (as he called it) was not very accurate..... I thought otherwise but didn't have proof to argue those many years' back.. Since those days I've loaded and tested cast bullets in eight different .25-20 WCF guns... My father was wrong on his "not very accurate" comment.:bigsmyl2:

My father told me that Stevens used a 1 in 13" twist in their barrels. He said the 77gr version of the Lyman bullet was the most accurate. He was right on the twist... I have the old gun now and it measures 1 in 13".

Someone years' back on this forum said that very late Winchester barrels in .25-20 WCF were made with 1 in 13" twist. I thought he was full of it.......... I had looked for a Winchester Model 92 in .25-20 with a perfect bore for over 50 years! I finally found one of the late ones with pristine rifling! It was a 1925 gun. One day I checked the twist....

1 turn in 13"!

This started me on checking .25-20 barrels.... Three different vintage Savage Model 23's had 1 in 13" twists. A Marlin Model 1894CL had a 1 in 14" twist. A Remington Model 25 also had a 1 in 14" twist.

The Marlin and Remington both shoot poorly with heavy long bullets like 257312. The Marlin had visible oval holes at 100 yards. Both guns were very accurate with a 65gr gascheck hollow point however?

The Winchester actually shoots lighter bullets the best but tolerates the heavy weights.

The Savage guns love the NOE copy of the RCBS bullet with shallow grease grooves and they go a full 90 grains. The Savage guns also have the best chambers by far with tighter clearances.

So 1 turn in 13" if you could find it. I wouldn't hesitate on 1 turn in 12" either. I wouldn't build a 1 in 14" gun.

I would design my own chambering reamer. (and I'd like to build a Low-Wall in .25-20!) I'd tighten all the clearances; eliminate the short "ball throat" and probably have .100" of .258" freebore.

Dies are also very generous in clearance. I have thought of custom dies to my specs more than once!

Have fun with your project! For cast bullets the .25-20 "Repeater" can be one of the very best for accuracy.

Eutectic

[oldred]

The Uberti is far from identical, internally, to Mr. Browning's masterpiece.

Actually the Uberti is quite similar to both the original Winchester 1885 design that was built for so many years and the Browning action it is based on with only a few minor differences from the original 1885, it's the newer modern Winchester and Browning rifles that are completely different to the point of being a significantly different design. Also the Model 1885 High Wall and Low Wall are Winchester's design based on John Browning's original design but still with very significant differences, only a few of Browning's original examples were ever built and they could hardly be described as Masterpieces. They are overly simple with a rather crude sear and trigger design and a 90 degree breech block arrangement that can cause head space problems, Winchester solved this problem with the angled breech block that we are now familiar with and the completely redesigned trigger group. Basically Winchester bought Browning's ingenious idea and designed the 1885 as we all know it based on that original concept, still the 1885 is significantly different and much improved over Browning's original single shot falling block rifle design.

This is not to fault Browning in any way, this original single shot action was designed and built in primitive conditions during the 1880's in the Utah Territory of the American western Frontier using simple tools and machinery by a man barely out of his teens and was also his first attempt at designing and building a rifle! The fact the action worked as well as it did and the fact that the Winchester folks were so impressed with it is testament not to a crude design but rather an ingenious one that in all likelihood would have been even better than the 1885 had Browning had Winchester's equipment to work with. While the rifle itself could be found to be lacking in some ways the fact it was even built under such conditions is a tribute to the genius of the man who was destined to become a legend and leave his mark on so many firearms designs that are still built today, some with little to no change from the originals!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Ah, I didn't know that. All credit to Uberti, then. It also did great credit to the judgment of Oliver Winchester and his managers. Sharps had just joined the long list of firearms companies have failed with an excellent product. All the indications were that the market was moving into repeaters, and the end of large-scale buffalo hunting seemed to sound the knell of the single shot. But they knew that with their ability to lower the price without sacrifice of quality, and run a more efficient distribution and support system, there was a niche left that they could get into.

All the same I imagine the decisive moment in Browning's design career as looking at the way the location of the lever pivot point would make a lever-action for longer cartridges unacceptably large, and thinking "Who made the rule that the lever needs a fixed pivot point at all?" That is the sort of moment when light bulbs appear above people's heads in cartoons.

I think Hugo von Mannlicher was just as sound and inventive an engineer, and has had just as much influence in the industry. But his ideas, even when of great influence, were carried forward by others. Possibly it was because of his greater interest in military firearms, in a nation whose wealth, political ineptitude and lack of water or mountain frontiers were a temptation to dangerous neighbours. But only Browning produced designs thoroughly competitive for many decades, and in some cases even today. Most "improvements" have been primarily in the eyes of production accountants.

[square butte]

Eutectic - Would love to see what you would design as a reamer - a drawing to compare to saami spec. I have heard a lot of guys say that they would design their own reamer for 25-20 - But never seen much for numbers. If you are able and willing, it would be great to see

[oldred]

Eutectic - Would love to see what you would design as a reamer - a drawing. I have heard a lot of guys say that they would design their own reamer for 25-20 - But never seen much for numbers. If you are able and willing, it would be great to see


I second that! I too would like to see designs and suggestions for such a reamer.

[Hooker53]

The 25-20 is also one of my Favs. Having both the Marlin 27 and the Sav 23 IV worked with several cast for these guns. The Savage 23 wins hands down with any of the more notable older cast designs but the reason in my case i believe is the Marlin's barrel is just not in the best of shape. I have 27's and the 23's both in 25-20 and 32-20. Those along with the 44-40 are my main go to Cal's. Good Info all on this grand little round.

Roy
Hooker53

[Eutectic]

Eutectic - Would love to see what you would design as a reamer - a drawing to compare to saami spec. I have heard a lot of guys say that they would design their own reamer for 25-20 - But never seen much for numbers. If you are able and willing, it would be great to see

I'll look for a cartridge drawing (reamer drawing) that I'm happy with and modify the dimensions as I would want them to use it for cast bullets......

Probably be looking for a Low-Wall now as well....:idea:

Eutectic

[50target]

Interesting stuff guys. When I was younger, bigger. Louder, mkred powdr for me. Not so much on the boomers these days.Love the older vintage calibers and the 25-20 is a hoot to shoot in whatever firearm you choose. Get a lot of blank looks at the range when folks ask "what ya shootin" but they warm up to it quick. Really weighing the costs of the different ways I can take this project. Thanks everyone. Share your 25-20 story and experience.

[oldred]

Don't have any info on the 25-20 but this thread has sure answered a lot of my questions before I even got around to asking! When I did my "Mini" High wall project a few years ago the 25-20 seemed like the perfect round for a small lightweight rifle when some others fellas on another forum suggested it but I found brass was so hard to get that I decided to go with 22 WMR, just about the time I was finishing the rifle and well after the barrel and chambering were done all the 22 RF including the magnum disappeared from the shelves! I briefly thought about converting to CF and re-chambering that rifle to the 218 Bee but I now intend to build another one chambered in the little 25 as soon as I finish my current big bore project. Brass is really hard to come by with the correct headstamp and apparently those that can be found were formed from Gold instead of Brass judging by the prices but there are ways to obtain brass and I have decided I just have to have one of these things, it's what I should have done the first time!

The Green Mountain barrel blank I had decided on is a 1 in 14 twist and from what is being said here it's a good thing I have not ordered it yet, apparently I need to find another barrel supplier since that's all they have for the 25-20.

[Bent Ramrod]

If you handload, and the contemplated rifle is a single shot, the .25-20 Stevens & Maynard (.25-20 Single Shot) might be a more practical option. Reamers are available, new brass is (if anything) more readily available (from Captech) than that for the Repeater, the cost differential, unless one is lucky, is shrinking to zero, and the same boolits and powders can be used. Loading dies would be a little more expensive; the only downside. The SS cartridge is just as accurate and head and shoulders cooler looking.

[oldred]

Yes I did consider the SS cartridge since the rifle will be a single shot but like the 22 Mag I wanted this to be a switch barrel rifle with a second barrel in 218 Bee, however considering the even rarer availability of Bee brass that might not be such a good idea. Still with enough effort and the willingness to share the same headstamp for different calibers it is doable even if not really practical.

Also you are certainly right about the brass, the SS brass not only seems even easier to find but quite a bit cheaper to boot!

[50target]

Yes I did consider the SS cartridge since the rifle will be a single shot but like the 22 Mag I wanted this to be a switch barrel rifle with a second barrel in 218 Bee, however considering the even rarer availability of Bee brass that might not be such a good idea. Still with enough effort and the willingness to share the same headstamp for different calibers it is doable even if not really practical.

Also you are certainly right about the brass, the SS brass not only seems even easier to find but quite a bit cheaper to boot!

Oldred, your project is almost identical to one I had in mind. That was, since the 32-20 wcf , 25-20 wcf & 218 Bee share the same case, to have a switch barrel in those three calibers and can keep same extractor. Have you done the 218 Bee yet? If so PM me for some assistance I may be able to offer. ALSO on the 25-20. Would love to see your project when you're done
Bob

[50target]

Guys, on the 25-20 Stevens case, you can also try Rocky Mountain Cartridge.

[John Boy]

What twist rate or suggestions might the group have.
With a liner, you have one choice for twist ratio - 1:14 using TJ Enterprise liners which are the best

[l h jenkins]

we are just finishing a #3 ruger in 25-20. bbl. is 1-10., mainly because I used a takeoff 25-06 bbl. from a savage. it will finish at 20". have to d&t for scope mounts and it will be finished. original cal. for the gun was 45-70 we like to never got it broke loose. could not get a grip with bbl. vise finally a 24" pipe wrench did the trick. threads were full of rust. no sign of any rust on rest of gun, go figure. I have a #1 buttstock for it, that I may strip as it is high gloss, and oil finish but want to shoot it first.

[50target]

Good thinking on the barrel choice using 25-06. Would love to hear how it shoots and range of bullet weights it handles.
Bob

[50target]

Well, close to getting her back. Shilen 26" barrel octagoned by Mr. Taylor, Taylor Machine.he matched contour of original barrel so no changes to fore end. He found a 1 to 12 twist so should handle all bullet weights the little cartridge iscapable of handling with some power & accuracy. Cut dovetails for front & rear sights and remounted sights. Have plenty of brass and a wide assortment of cast.
Maybe someone will offer up their favorite recipe for this little gem. I've been on the Marlin sight. Overwhelming.!!
Thanks & will let you know what works in her.
Bob

[50target]

See thread " John Taylor--you are THE MAN" for update
Bob