COLT Series 3 Signature Dragoon 3rd gen Shoots HIGH

[rhouser]

Help. This is my first Cap and Ball. I have no idea what I am doing beyond following the manual. I am 66 years old and must have lost my mind. I traded a very nice .45 1911 slab side for this thing and can't hit a 2 foot target at 25 yards with the Trigger Notch and the front sight.

Ok, I can hit the target if I aim at the very bottom of the target. The ball will hit at the top of the paper (24" target). I am loading up to 50 gr fffg and a .457 round ball. Wonder Wad placed in between and cylinder smeared with bore butter.

I can't seem to figure out a sight picture. Any advice would be appreciated. I would really like this gun to shoot cause it is really FUN. I would go as far as sending it out to be tuned, timed, and sights fixed if there is such a thing. I am also trying to figure out the wedge cause I can bind the cylinder if I go in too far.

Any advice, observations, experiences, recommendations would be REALLY appreciated.

thanks in advance. rch

[Outpost75]

All the Colt old fixed sight C&B guns shot high in my experience, whether repros or originals.

They were close range weapons more often shot instinctively than aimed.

A higher front sight is called for.

[rhouser]

Outpost, thanks for the quick response. Is there anybody who specializes in working on these guns. I would guess it will be a soldering job. The wedge with it's screw is a challenge for me also. I don't know what is truly the correct placement.

rch

[square butte]

Goon's Gun Works in Marietta, GA. Mike is a member here and maybe he will chime in. 45 Dragoon is his user name. He has one of mine that I am waiting for

[Fly]

What I do is mill a dove tail & install a dove tail site on them. Some say that's not from the period.
But its not uncommand to find them modified as that from the day.

Fly (Also you can adjust right to left )

[Texantothecore]

The gun is probably sighted for fifty yards. Use 40 grains or a bit less. I went through the same process with my 51 Navy. The guns were frequently used for hunting rather than gun fighting.

[Outpost75]

Something to be careful of is the barrel wall thickness at the muzzle.

Some .44-.45 barrels are too thin to support a standard 3/8" dovetail base. For those a solder-on front sight is the way to go.

I have also seen barrels drilled and tapped for a higher, elevated shotgun bead on a post which some people like and it still "looks" traditional.

I use a Ruger Old Army for hunting and for me the best solution was to install Hamilton Bowen's sights.

NOT traditional, but certainly the best technical solution.

http://parts.bowenclassicarms.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=5&zenid=52a09477add1128789c565ac5c77f65e

[skeeter2]

I could be wrong, but I thought I read that colt armies were sighted for 75 yards. I suspect dragons were too. There were for shooting guys off horses.

[KCSO]

Here is the skinny, your Dragoon is copied from the original and they were sighted to hit a man sized target at 100 yards. You held on the belly of a man and hit him somewhere out to 100 yards. A LOT were resighted by the owners to hit dead on at closer ranges, IIRR one of Wild Bills guns in Cody shows this modification. The Dragoon will be no problem to resight, I usually put on the proper height of Bead front sight to hit at 25 yards and cut the hammer notch to a round bottom. Windage is by tapping the front sight to suit. For real accuracy I would go with a 457 ball seated over 2 or 3 wonder wads or wads cut from an old felt hat and no more than 30-35 grains of FFg for accuracy work. I also cast balls from slightly harder lead say 1/2 and 1/2 wheel weights and pure lead and straight wheel weight for full charge loads. Accuracy when set up right will be on the order of 2" or so at 25 yards from the bench. The last one I did was hitting 6" groups at 100 yards from a rest.

[Outpost75]

I could be wrong, but I thought I read that colt armies were sighted for 75 yards. I suspect dragons were too. There were for shooting guys off horses.

While I don't have a source for the zeroing, that seems correct based on my limited understanding of cavalry training and doctrine at the time. The requirement for the .44 Dragoon revolver was established as having 50 balls to the pound and holding 40 grains of powder, was intended to be able to shoot through a horse broadside at 100 yards, according to Reports of The Chief Of Ordnance from the period.

Having dispatched wild hogs, deer and a few injured stock with the Ruger Old Army using similar loads, the roundball at velocities approaching 1000 fps is certainly capable of doing that. I have never recovered one from a deer.

I use .457 balls in all of my cap & balls. The admonition I would offer in using harder lead is that on the old guns and many of the repros oversized balls harder than about 8 BHN require enough effort to load that you may bend the loading lever. I use 1:40 tin/lead from Roto Metals in all of my blackpowder guns, either muzzleloading or cartridge. I also use a 6" piece of drilled out wooden hammer handle to slip over the end of the loading lever to provide more leverage if reloading in the field. For serious target work in the Old Army I load the cylinders out of the gun in a loading stand. I have three for mine, plus the cartridge conversion.

[square butte]

Sounds like the cylinder arbor on you gun is going to be short - If you bind up the cylinder with the wedge driven in snugly

[rhouser]

Square butte, can a "short arbor" be fixed. Right now, the cylinder gap can be adjusted by where I set the wedge. I thought this was a feature.... :-? I am joking about the feature, but, I thought it was normal. I have a wedge with a screw that I assumed was to lock the wedge where I want it. Note: I have NO experience with C&B beyond my 125 or so shots I have taken.

[45 Dragoon]

Thanks Square butte!! The arbor is too short. The wedge isn't a "gap" setter or in this case a "clearance" setter. It's job is to hold two assemblies together under tension and that's it. Set up correctly, the arbor length determines the bbl/cyl clearance and the revolver is the SAME revolver each time it's assembled (just like the originals!). At that point, since it acts like a solid frame now, sight adjustment can be made and maintained. You'll be amazed at how truly consistent your open top is (even better that it's a Dragoon!!) !! My Whitneyville and 1st Mod. Dragoons are easily the most accurate revolvers I've ever owned. They have been converted to .45C (gated Kirsts) and permanently set up to stay that way (since new). Since the open top is a "self cleaner" (meaning the cylinder kisses the bbl. each time it is cycled and "cleans" the cyl. face) they maintain a .0015" bbl/ cyl clearance (I only shoot smokless)! The service I provide for cap and ball gets a .002"-.0025"clearance. The wedge won't close these clearances.
The result is a two assembly revolver that acts as a solid frame, more power, more velocity, more consistency, more overall efficiency and a much cleaner revolver (since everything is going out the bbl which is what make all the other stuff possible!!)!

Mike

[Sharpsman]

Hold lower!

[Omnivore]

Yep; Welcome to Colt percussion revolvers!

A gun that shoots to point of aim is way more fun than one that doesn't, so either replace the front sight yourself or have it done, but only AFTER fixing the barrel to frame to arbor problem that all Ubertis have.


Some .44-.45 barrels are too thin to support a standard 3/8" dovetail base.

Not a problem. If you can properly fit a dovetail, you can make one from scratch that's plenty shallow. There's plenty of meat to the barrel for a shallow dovetail. I did it on a Colt Police thusly, and the ability to drift for windage is a big plus;
http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php?topic=10160.0

GET THE BARREL TO CYLINDER ARBOR FIT PROBLEM SOLVED FIRST (that's typically done by cutting a spacer to fit inside the barrel's arbor bore, but there are other methods) BEFORE you regulate your sights. It may also involve mounting the barrel up between centers in a lathe and shaving the barrel-to-frame's "water table" interface.

Golf balls at 20 yards. That's a good standard for POI/POA. That or dead on at 25 yards. THAT makes for a fun gun! You'll also find that it's good for much greater distances, even when regulated for 25 yards. Holding way down (and usually a bit to one side) can certainly be done, but you'll never get as much enjoyment or utility out of it that way.

I expect 45Dragoon could take care of all that for you in one whack, so to speak. While he's at it, have him make sure the grips are fit nice and flush with the triggerguard and backstrap - it's a much more comfortable gun that way. Knocking off the sharp edges is also worth doing.

The Sig Series Colts are typically safe queens, but if you want a shooter, get it all fixed up and have at it. The price of the work, if done right, would be well worth it, being that any gun that's all set up nice and is fit well and all would run a couple thousand or more.

[rhouser]

Omnivore, I swapped a nice Kimber slab side for this Colt Signature. I shot the Kimber and had every intention of shooting the Dragoon. What am I missing? Does the Colt have some flaw that will prevent it from becoming a good shooting Dragoon? I was looking for a Walker when I found this Gen 3 Dragoon and my reading made me choose it for it's power and potential.

45 Dragoon, is my pistol something you could "make right"? It is a Colt Signature 3rd Model dragoon as I described it. Would it be better to find another gun for some reason? I kind of liked the fact that this one is stamped Colt and it is pretty nice.

All, I am a 66 y/o long time shooter that likes to shoot across the spectrum of guns. I love to shoot modern (high tech) flintlocks then go out with bench rest accuracy type rifles, then have a 30-30 day, then 45-70's, then my Garand, then 1000 yard guns, etc etc. I just wanted to add a Dragoon day. It is a piece of history + it is just plain fun. I now want to get the arbor fixed, the gun tuned, some sight work done so I can actually hit to a point of aim, and then run the gun for accuracy and fun.

[45 Dragoon]

Rhouser,
Absolutely it can be "fixed!! I do it most every day! The open top revolver is an awesome and elegant weapon and a true joy when it functions correctly!! If you'll contact me through my website or pm me here, I'll give you contact info.

Mike

[rhouser]

45 Dragoon (Mike). I have sent you a PM. thanks rch