30 Apache AR15 now ready for prime time

[bruce drake]

What do you get when you cross the American made 5.56x45 with the Ruskie 7.62x39?
Answer: The 30 Apache or 30-223Rem
The 123gr bullet of the Russian cartridge with the case of the American cartridge.
24gr of H335 and 2100fps 10 feet from the muzzle of the rifle means the ballistics of the Russian and the plentiful American cartridge.
Pluses - standard AR15 bolts and magazines can be used along with reforming 5.56 cases which are very plentiful.
Minuses - slightly slower than the Russian parent cartridge and the brass necks of the reformed 5.56 cartridges are thinner than the original which causes case necks to crack on 3rd reloads if not annealed when first reforming. Also you have to pay attention when you reform the shoulder of the new cartridge as it's pretty scant but functional!
To get this cartridge onto an AR15 rifle, I re-chambered a 300BLK barrel (cute cartridge but too much like a pistol cartridge) and added an H3 buffer to replace the lighter carbine buffer and a carbine-length pigtail gastube to the extend the original gas tube from the pistol length port on the barrel.
For my lead-casting friends - it's loaded with a Lyman 311359 mold which with my alloy drops out at 120gr and after lubing and gaschecking weighs at 123gr which matches the Russian AK47 cartridge exactly.
For my non-AR15 shooting friends...bear with me...its been almost a 4-year exodus getting this wildcat working on my own in between retirement from the Army, neck surgery, recovery and starting my current job at the American Legion.

For my friends who enjoy odd calibers, consider this as a either a very hot 32-20 or a super-hot 300 Sherwood!

169576

[flyer1]

Wow. I really like the idea very much. How does it shoot? Any idea of the energy? Ok for hogs?

[brstevns]

Where did you find dies?

[rockrat]

CH has dies, but I just use 300 blackout dies from Lyman for my 30-223 bolt gun. With the reamer I got from Midway, the Lyman dies just size the case body down enough to chamber.

[KLR]

Looks good. Have you tried Accurate 1680 powder? In my 30-223 Handi rifle it made a huge difference.

[bruce drake]

Pacific Tool and Gauge makes the reamer and Midway does stock it on special order. CH Dies are the makers of my die set. You get a sizing and seating die for under $100.
My rifle likes AA1680 as well. 23gr of AA1680 with a Sierra 130gr Hollowpoint came at around 2100fps from the 20" barrel.

If I had chambered this in a bolt-gun, it would have been easier to get it up and running without having to deal with the AR's gas system. I have a great plinker load using a case full of WC-860 surplus with a 150gr bullet (LEE's .309 FN) that doesn't cycle the action yet still puts it out with some authority.

Regarding stopping power. My preferred 123gr cast bullet comes out at "58" at 2100fps. The listed formula states that at least 50 is recommended for Deer.
https://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/thornily.htm?v1=123&v3=.311&v2=2100
If I use a 150gr bullet at 2050fps bumps it up to "74" on their scale. Regarding hunting pigs, I'd use a 30 caliber jacketed bullet myself to ensure it stayed down after I put one or two into it.
At 100 yards off sand bags, I'm getting just under 2MOA on a regular basis with my gas-checked boolits and it probably can shoot better with someone else on the trigger (my hands shake and I use bifocals now). I also have to limit heavy recoiling cartridges so this one has about the same level of recoil as the Russian 7.62x39mm.

[bruce drake]

offhand at 100 yards with the 30-223 chambered AR15 with 20" barrel First nine shots with a full effect wind not being adjusted for (just shooting for a rough group size) 169708169709
24gr WC-844 with 123gr Lyman 311359 boolit.
And I have no idea why the pics are sideways.

[JeffinNZ]

So a rimless .303 Pygmy then. [smilie=1:

[bruce drake]

So a rimless .303 Pygmy then. [smilie=1:

I guess so...I got tired of all the talk about that great Wallaby round from Kiwi-ville...and had to make a local version... ;)

Bruce

[Hamish]

So a rimless .303 Pygmy then. [smilie=1:


:groner:

(Thanks for the belly laugh Jeff,,,,,,)

[Jake70]

What do you get when you cross the American made 5.56x45 with the Ruskie 7.62x39?
Answer: The 30 Apache or 30-223Rem
The 123gr bullet of the Russian cartridge with the case of the American cartridge.
24gr of H335 and 2100fps 10 feet from the muzzle of the rifle means the ballistics of the Russian and the plentiful American cartridge.
Pluses - standard AR15 bolts and magazines can be used along with reforming 5.56 cases which are very plentiful.
Minuses - slightly slower than the Russian parent cartridge and the brass necks of the reformed 5.56 cartridges are thinner than the original which causes case necks to crack on 3rd reloads if not annealed when first reforming. Also you have to pay attention when you reform the shoulder of the new cartridge as it's pretty scant but functional!
To get this cartridge onto an AR15 rifle, I re-chambered a 300BLK barrel (cute cartridge but too much like a pistol cartridge) and added an H3 buffer to replace the lighter carbine buffer and a carbine-length pigtail gastube to the extend the original gas tube from the pistol length port on the barrel.
For my lead-casting friends - it's loaded with a Lyman 311359 mold which with my alloy drops out at 120gr and after lubing and gaschecking weighs at 123gr which matches the Russian AK47 cartridge exactly.
For my non-AR15 shooting friends...bear with me...its been almost a 4-year exodus getting this wildcat working on my own in between retirement from the Army, neck surgery, recovery and starting my current job at the American Legion.

For my friends who enjoy odd calibers, consider this as a either a very hot 32-20 or a super-hot 300 Sherwood!

169576

That is nice. I love that idea, I might have to do something like that myself.

[bruce drake]

https://scontent.ford1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13529129_10209282635253501_3268981354492410094_n.j pg?oh=9ec748e7d2f5f5429be302d332587967&oe=5807FBE4
From left to right. 7.62x25mm with 90gr HP; 30 Carbine with 110gr softpoint; 300BLK with 150gr soft point; 30 APACHE with Hornady 110gr Spirepoint; 7.62x39 with 123gr softpoint; 7.62x51 with 150gr FMJ; 30-06 with 150gr FMJ
This helps provide a scale of the cartridge in comparison to other 30 caliber cartridges.

With 22gr of H110 and that Hornady 110gr spirepoint, I am getting 2500fps on a regular basis. That is 50fps over the comparable 110gr loads for the 7.62x39 and just 300fps under the 30-30 loads for the same weight bullet. I actually prefer to shoot the 110gr bullet with 20gr of H110 at 2350fps or 24gr of WC-844 (H335 data minus 10%) with the 311359 gas-checked and lubed to 125gr at 2054fps as case life is several times longer than the higher-pressured 22gr H110 load. The cast load makes for a pleasant shooting load that ejects the cartridges around 5 ft back from me at around 4 o'clock.

https://scontent.ford1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13516433_10209282635373504_8896301335125749706_n.j pg?oh=4d5677943a8467885670f4b98cd7ac16&oe=57FBED84
A side-view of the 30 Apache cartridge loaded at 2.24" OAL and also the modification needed to be done on the magazine to allow more than 3 cartridges to be loaded in the magazine without binding on the magazine ribs. The portholes are covered by the magazine well of the lower receiver to help keep dirt out of the magazine when it is in the rifle. The Modification allows me to easily load 28 cartridges in the magazine.
https://scontent.ford1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13501665_10209282635093497_1513534847149221508_n.j pg?oh=f921926dfee705329162fc04f6398ca0&oe=57C22C66
Top view of the cartridge in the magazine. At 2.24" OAL, the cartridge is real close to the barrel lands and will not rub on the front of the magazine as it cycles through from the mag to the chamber. A note for potential 30 Apache shooters who want to try this in their AR15s. My star chamber on the barrel extension causes 110gr Roundnose bullets (as pictured on the example 30 Carbine case above) to hang and misfeed at the 2.24" length but if I seat them deep (2.15") they have a better feed rate but occasionally one does still hang up on the star chamber in rapid fire. For 100 yard rifle matches, those same 110gr Roundnose bullets work excellently in the slow-fire stages (single bullet loaded into chamber at a time over an empty magazine.

If I had a bolt rifle with a 223 Remington appropriate bolt, I would not think twice about re-barreling and then chambering a .308 caliber barrel for this cartridge. I am sure that it would make a very effective woods rifle where you might want a light stalking rifle. As a bolt action, you possibly won't be constrained by the Max OAL or the need to use Spirepoints to ensure proper feeding. My lower receiver even had the M4 feed ramps cut into the receiver but it didn't prevent the bullet with the 110gr Round nose from literally digging its nose straight into the Star Chamber/Barrel Extension.

And as final note today, I intend to primarily shoot this rifle in the 110-125gr weights with supersonic loads but there is a lot of data is out there for Sub-sonic ammunition if you wish to invest in a suppressor and shoot the bad guys and rodents quietly. I have shot 150gr bullets as well, but for some reason, those leaded keel-bullets cause shorter return case life.
https://scontent.ford1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13516746_10209282634933493_5866145994564402696_n.j pg?oh=a7df6d43f91bda100dd17656b699a24d&oe=580200D6
(L to R) Standard 5.56gr with 18gr 0f W296 ; 7.62x45gr with the Lyman 311359 with 24gr of WCC84 for 2150fps and the 7.62x39 with a 125gr soft point.

[bruce drake]

170853
target group from last year

[dverna]

Well done Bruce.

[longbow]

I have an old article by Roy Dunlap on the 30-223 but with reference to bolt action rifles.

He loaded from 125 gr. to 240 gr. With very good results. Of course 240 gr. were subsonic.

I also have Elgin gates info for handgun metallic silhouette shooting for 30-223.

Interesting cartridge and performance and as you say, brass is plentiful.

If you are interested in the load data I have I would be happy to send it to you.

Longbow

[bruce drake]

Longbow,

I'd be glad to have the info. I don't intend to load for subsonics but I'd like the load data. Getting it to run in the AR has been interesting but worth it.

With 110gr and 125gr jacketed bullets, I'm just a little shy of 30-30 performance levels so that makes me happy for deer seasons in the future.

[longbow]

Bruce:

I'm not home from vacation yet but will be in a couple of days. I'll look up both the Roy Dunlap article and Elgin Gates info then send it. You will likely want the whole Roy Dunlap article so I will scan that. IIRC there was a variety of load data and bullet weights for both supersonic and some subsonic loads.

The info in the Elgin Gates book is for metallic silhouette so some hot loads. I think the load data was put together by Tom Beal... or at least original load work up.

I'm sure you'll find some useful info.

Longbow

[longbow]

Bruce:

Here is what I have:

Scratch that. I scanned and got rather large files so tried saving in a variety of ways but failed to get usable files that are small enough to post.

If you PM me your e-mail address I will send the PDF files. That will give you pretty good resolution.

Longbow

[Regulator.]

Bruce excellent
I seen the article a while back as well.
Really like the concept might make a great varmit AR-15 if loaded lighter than 125grs in the mid range.

[bruce drake]

Bruce excellent
I seen the article a while back as well.
Really like the concept might make a great varmit AR-15 if loaded lighter than 125grs in the mid range.
You mean like these? 110gr SWC Half jacket swaged bullets
https://scontent.ford1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15037071_10210630040057779_5896378869382811318_n.j pg?oh=caf3bf5cefbc8d431404f0c06ab8c930&oe=58BEBD20

[gemihur]

Gary Reeder 30 Raptor uses 204 Ruger brass (shown with 300BLK)
289049

[Baltimoreed]

289053
Interesting, Looks a lot like the cartridge that I’m currently playing with, Wilson’s 300Hamr. A 223/556 case shortened a bit and enlarged to .308. Haven’t shot for groups as I’m still trying to get my mini14 that was rebarreled to 300blkout and then recently rechambered to 300Hamr T20 build running. I needed more room in the case for more powder to get more gas to run the gun. Good thing is I was able to get a 300Hamr case cut off tool for my HF saw and lee dies which made building cases easier. It’s finally coming together I think. Pix is a Ham’r and a blkout.