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Blackwater
06-04-2016, 01:09 PM
This post will be partly a confession of how dumb I can be, partly a celebration of how that doesn't have to STAY that way, and partly just an illustration of how greater understanding of The Word can come, especially to those of us who "see through the glass darkly, from unanticipated sources and at unanticipated times and in unanticipated ways.

I read the Bible and tried to decipher the real meaning of its words for many years, and kind'a found a point where I couldn't progress further, even though I strongly sensed there was much left to be learned. It was very frustrating, because above everything else, I've typically just "wanted to know." So, I progressed, or maybe I should say did NOT progress, for many years in my understanding of the Bible. The more I read it, the less I seemed to understand. Very frustrating. Yet, I always knew it was all true, and that there was much I was just simply missing.

Then, some years ago, I just happened to tune into a show on EWTN about G. K. Chesterton. I knew of him through his wonderful quotes I'd read often. Being curious, I DVR'd these shows, and became very interested in him. The show is hosted by the leader of the American Chesterton Society, Dale Ahlquist, and his wry sense of playful humor was rather captivating and appropriate to the subject at hand. Then, I decided to order a few books from the ACS, and read them. Wow! Was I ever more impressed! Chesterton's playful sense of humor, his insights, and his deep thinking on things I'd never even thought about, was a revelation to me. I found myself suddenly understanding things I'd long wondered about better than I'd come to ever really hope to.

Then, I tuned into the shows on the Church Channel and found Reasons to Believe, and that was captivating and VERY illustrative of how much science had progressed toward proving, or at the very least supporting heavily, the true and logical concept that God MUST really exist and be a loving and awesomely powerful God who controls everything we know, and put it all into motion to begin with. Wow! Yet ANOTHER real gem, and it was on the TV! More edification, still!

I was both amused and appreciative of all this. Then I saw a program on C. S. Lewis, I believe on EWTN again, and bought some of his works. Wow again! More real gems of thought on the Bible, God, Christ, and our place in it all, and yet more "reasons to believe" from the simple direction of rational thought and analysis of things we all know. I was also amused and impressed that he'd started out as an atheist, and had set out to PROVE what a folly belief and faith were, but instead, became a believer for all his best efforts. He was, above all, brutally honest. His writing is more objective and analytic in content than most are used to reading from this angle of approach, but gee golly wow was it POWERFUL!

I've since gotten into a few others, but these three, this trinity of great authors, has really opened my eyes to so very, very much that I doubt I'd ever have realized without them. And all deal with Christianity in a very non-denominational sort of way in all but the rarest of instances. Chesterton defended Catholicism because he was Catholic, but 99+% of what he wrote was non-denominational - a thing I think is a huge asset in considering and reading the Bible for real content. It sure has proven out that way for me, if to no other.

I'd read some denominational stuff before and found it really rather limited and in all honesty, kind'a boring, like many sermons can be once you've really and truly accepted Christianity deeply into your heart. So I ceased pursuing understanding from that angle, and just languished with my desire to know, alone for many years. When I found the above three, it was like wide doors swinging open to me! And boy! Was I ever more appreciative of THAT!

Only reading what I have will fully illustrate what I've said above fully, and I couldn't possibly post it all here. I think I've read nearly 20 of Chesterton's books, and about 3 of Lewis's, and maybe a half dozen of the RTB books. And perhaps the most impressive things is that each of these form a unified whole wherein each of the parts lock up precisely with the others, even though approaching them from different angles. When that happens, I've always considered that validation of each of the parts.

So though reading the Bible will ALWAYS be THE main thing, I've found it SO beneficial in my walk to read others' interpretations and comments in order to "see the light" more clearly and fully and deeply. It's as though at this stage in my life, some of my most ardent and life long wishes had finally been granted.

A friend asked me to teach him to tie flies for fishing with the fly rod some time ago. I did, and he took to it like a duck takes to water! And the amazing thing is, I learned so much MORE from teaching him than I'd ever known before! His sometimes whimsical use of color and materials was a real revelation to me. And I'd always shied away from using foam for a material, but he wanted to try. Darned if he didn't get ME into it too! And floating wooly worms and others really DO catch fish, too! So, the student in this case, taught me, the teacher as much or more than I taught him. After all, all you can really do in fly tying is lay stuff alongside the shank or wrap stuff around it, and tie it in. Really simple stuff, actually.

And one of the revelations I got from my reading of the triumvirate of authors above, was that it truly IS very simple. It's just not something that jumps out at you and says, "Here I am." Much in the Bible is hidden until you approach it from just the right angle, and that just made me smile at how dull I'd truly been for so very long. If a man can't laugh at himself and his errors, he'll never make much of a Christian, I think. That's another reason I've so long thought simple humility is one of, if not THE most crucial aspects of true and mature Christianity.

Just as I, the teacher of fly tying, learned so much from a good and sometimes whimsical student, I learned that much in the Bible can be learned from reading it a lot more lightly than I'd been doing. I just wasn't approaching it from the right angle, or with enough openess and whimsy. Chesterton is much more whimsical in his writing, and he's a real pleasure to read. Even his ideological "enemies" loved and respected him! And whenever I reread him, I notice things that I hadn't quite "gotten" the first time. This is the hallmark of really good and "pregnant" writing and authors.

Who else have you guys found who has helped you broaden and deepen your own personal understanding of the Bible. It seems common for many to reach a certain point, a stalemate of sorts, where our reading alone just seems to reach a point of diminishing returns, if not a brick wall at times. I know some of you have demonstrated far greater wisdom and understanding than I have. Who helped you reach that point in your own walk?

A lot of good stuff is really out there, but there's SO much stuff that really is just repetition of the same ol' same ol', that it's hard to separate the wheat from the chaff. I now realize that my earlier efforts at edification were simply cut short because of MY cynicism that "they're all like that." But at least I learned better, even if it DID take half a lifetime to do it. Who has meant the most to you in helping you find your own answers?

USMC87
06-04-2016, 09:37 PM
I have read a lot of Charles Spurgeon, John Owen, John Bunyun, Jonathan Edwards, A.W. Pink, BB Warfield, And many others who have helped me understand different points. I am getting ready to start reading John Bunyuns book called Pilgrims progress which he wrote while in prison for the sake of the gospel.

Preacher Jim
06-05-2016, 07:03 AM
I have reread your post many times. You will always find new things in God's word, it is revealed as you grow to understand and use it. God's word is living and always expanding as you grow in knowledge and wisdom.
It never changes but you do as you study and see the deeper meaning, you grow from milk to meat in your understanding. May all of us grow in wisdom and grace as God feeds us what we can comprehend.

Boaz
06-05-2016, 07:14 AM
Thank you Jim . I started to put up a similar post the other day . You find new meaning every time . Certain scripture will be reveled , the same scripture could carry a complete new meaning next week . It is ongoing .

Pine Baron
06-05-2016, 07:30 AM
Thank you Jim and Boaz. I've read this post a few times and am having a hard time putting to words what you guys have so stated. I too have found new meaning as times change and situations develop. I can't really pinpoint any one influence. Boaz hit on it, It is ongoing.
I received my first Bible upon "graduating" Sunday school in 1960 from Shady Lane Presbyterian Church in Columbus, Ohio. It's a King James version that has a broken binding, worn, torn, scorched, dog eared, highlighted, annotated, tear stained and generally resembles me and my life. No matter how many other versions I come to own, it's the one I always end up with. I believe that God truly "speaks" to me through it. It's my old "Rugged Cross". YMMV.

Ickisrulz
06-05-2016, 07:40 AM
I recommend almost anything by G. Campbell Morgan. He was an expositor. Some of the books he wrote and others are transcripts of lessons he gave to audiences. His treatment of the Gospels are especially helpful. He was an amazing student of the Bible and teacher with the ability to present his understanding concisely. Most works have to be gotten in the used market. Procuring these books and reading them is worth any Christian's time.

mrvmax
06-05-2016, 07:59 AM
I do not read many other books since I am just not a reader. I tend to like the Zhodhiates Complete Word Study Dictionary and Kittels Theological dictionary of the New Testament. The challenge is to find the intended meaning of scripture and that can sometimes be difficult, especially if you are not a Greek/Aramaic/Hebrew scholar. If you find an author with like beliefs then it helps to read their writings but you will always get a particular viewpoint or slant that represents their particular beliefs (similar to what you stated above about the denominational writings). We must do our best to interpret scripture without any biases toward a particular viewpoint and that is easier said than done. I find going to the dictionaries to get help on word use and then reading the passages helps out tremendously. Even with that though there is so much more when trying to tie it all together.

Preacher Jim
06-05-2016, 08:35 AM
The problem was pointed out above. We find writers with like beliefs, God's word is our best source of understanding His word. I have 11000 books I read from every one but go back ask God to show me his truths. No denomination is totally correct but they fit our beliefs and that is ok as long as we read the Bible with an open mind and heart for the Lord to grow us to what is our place. And I read opposing views also.
Remember God's word is living and sharper than a two edged sword. Grow beyond your fixed beliefs to where God wants you today, then start over tomorrow because his name is not I was, it is I am.

Ickisrulz
06-05-2016, 09:47 AM
The problem was pointed out above. We find writers with like beliefs, God's word is our best source of understanding His word. I have 11000 books I read from every one but go back ask God to show me his truths. No denomination is totally correct but they fit our beliefs and that is ok as long as we read the Bible with an open mind and heart for the Lord to grow us to what is our place. And I read opposing views also.
Remember God's word is living and sharper than a two edged sword. Grow beyond your fixed beliefs to where God wants you today, then start over tomorrow because his name is not I was, it is I am.

As you surely know, a good scholarly commentary is the best source for getting at a passage's intended meaning. These will present the author's interpretation and its merits as well as varied viewpoints that other scholars have and why they have them. Scholarly commentaries will show historical and cultural context and point out things the original languages do that we cannot see.

Anyone wanting to go through the Bible thoroughly should pick up a set of NICOT and NICNT and start reading for a couple years. That will open up a whole new world of understanding.

Blackwater
06-05-2016, 10:56 AM
Mrvmax and Preacher Jim, your views very much parallel mine. And when Mrvmax said, "We must do our best to interpret scripture without any biases toward a particular viewpoint and that is easier said than done," he really hit on the reason WHY I have to try so hard to interpret the Bible more accurately and completely. We all have beliefs that we've won by great effort and thought. It's truly difficult to challenge them, but if we can, and can do it successfully and honestly, it's very much worth it. After all, we've been told that a house built on sand will fall, while one built on rock will withstand the strongest storms. It's the same way with our beliefs. Ones that are a bit limited and staid just can't stand much challenge, while those that have proven themselves to work reliably over time and across many situations tend to weather any storm that might arise. Such is the value of truth vs. misunderstandings.

And I think the righteous way to solid and invincible foundations of our belief, is to challenge our beliefs. Only by challenging them ourselves do we prepare ourselves for times and situations where they'll be challenged by others, or simply by life, and the things that happen in it. It's really like the old sword makers who, upon completing a sword, tested it before letting someone use it in battle, lest it break and let the bearer down at a crucial moment.

So if we "see through a glass darkly," it then seems necessary that we find stuff from the minds of others, so that we can truly know their words aren't colored by our own beliefs. But even that has problems. Most of us look for stuff that supports what we already believe, in order to justify and shore it up. But I've always sought something different to compare my beliefs to, because I just simply figured that it was kind'a silly, really, to just look for a rubber stamp for what we believe. I wanted something to test my beliefs with, and that could challenge and/or clarify them and distill them down to their very essence. I've had some success at that with the authors I listed above, and I thank you guys for your contributions as well. I probably won't get around to them all, but I'll certainly give at least some of them a try. Recently got some books, mostly on the Crusades, that I need to get through first, but it's good to have posts like this in the archives so we can recall them when we get the chance to order some more books. I got 12 in the last order, and they all appear to be good on the subjects they deal with. The Crusades are talked about by those who today wish to pan belief and faith, that I figured it'd be wise to actually know more than just a little about them.

Seen through faithful eyes, history is amazing! All through it is woven reasons to believe, and evidence that God truly DOES reach down His mighty hand, and take an active part in this world at very critical times, and He uses people, it seems, by virtue of their position and circumstance, and shows no real "favoritism," at least generally. He'll even use non-believers when it suits him to do so!

But reading history from this viewpoint is impossible unless we have a good, solid base for our faith to rest on. The more we know and understand, the more everything else seems to be magnified, and the more things start to make sense, all throughout history. After all, the story of Christ is simply part of history, and the evidence of His efforts and of His life and its examples and significance run all throughout the history since his birth, life and death. Take WWII for instance. Anyone who can't or refuses to see the hand of God at work at many critical points just isn't paying attention or trying to really understand it. Understanding Christ and the rest of our faith simply makes things "glow in the dark" so we CAN see them. To a believer, they begin to stand out like a sore thumb, or that glow in the dark. And when our faith really makes sense, and does it consistently throughout history, how can it not solidify and strengthen our beliefs to the point they'll withstand any challenge in our life?

Again, thanks. The people and ideas we "feed" ourselves makes a difference. The good ones help SO much! And the curious thing I've long noticed is that while some authors "speak" to some, others just don't quite "get it" from them, but do from others. That's why I thought this thread might be an asset here. Any time we hit a spot where we seem to feel we're reading the same things over and over, and not getting much from it, it's time to see what others see in it. From that, we can re-start our penetration into the depths of the meanings in The Book. It's good to have that as an asset for us.

johnson1942
06-05-2016, 07:14 PM
does any one rely upon the Holy Spirit?

jmort
06-05-2016, 07:39 PM
"...does any one rely upon the Holy Spirit?"

Yes, but it took a few years for me to figure out how that The Holy Ghost will answer every important question you have. I used to struggle with questions and would be vexed that I did not know the answer. then I just turned it all over to God/The Holy Ghost/Jesus and the answers came. Not instantly, buy more often than not within days or a week or so. I have not struggled with a question for many, many years. It was a blessing when I just waited for the answer and stopped struggling.

Blackwater
06-05-2016, 08:25 PM
does any one rely upon the Holy Spirit?

Sure, but it seems to me, based on my experience, that in many things and at many times, Christ and God expect us to put forth some efforts on our own behalf. Simply intuiting things works to an extent, but to solidify and flesh things out, I think we have to do our due diligence ourselves, in response to Jesus's admonition to "study to show thyself approved." Sometimes, I think, God simply wants us to give Him something to bless, and at times, that means study in order to understand better and more fully and deeply. Just MHO, of course, but it seems to be the way I and most others have found some of the real pearls we have.

Ickisrulz
06-06-2016, 09:23 AM
does any one rely upon the Holy Spirit?

You can't just kick back in any area of your life and rely on God "to do it." You go to work each day to earn a living...but yet you rely on God to provide. Biblical studies are absolutely no different. Man must do his part.

Boaz
06-06-2016, 10:12 AM
We have responsibility's to do our part . God is working with us , through us . Part of our >relationship< with GOD .

Wayne Smith
06-07-2016, 09:40 AM
To truly understand the Scripture we also need to hear it as the original hearers did. That means we need to study the culture and historical background as well. That is what a good commentary can do for us.

I also read for application. For example, I have heard multiple sermons on the "Armor of God" from Ephesians. I have never heard any pastor talk about what we should do once we put on the armor. Yet the passage clearly, five times, tells us.

Blackwater
06-07-2016, 09:17 PM
Excellent point, Wayne. Anyone who's been among a very different culture from their own should instantly realize the truth of what you say. Not knowing what the actors in any story are thinking, and how they're regarding all that's going on around them, makes any story misleading and un-understandable. All the factors pointed out here together, taken as a whole, should kind'a explain why it takes a lifetime for us to understand it well enough to really get the gist of most of it. In a way, it's even surprising we can even do that. Again, maybe that was intended to keep us humble, so we CAN perceive more fully? I've long had a notion that only a humble heart COULD understand much of the content of the Bible, and maybe especially some of the most poignant parts. Just MHO, of course, but I've seen so many indications of that it'd be hard for anyone to miss, I think.

Traffer
06-08-2016, 12:31 AM
I have read many of the Authors mentioned in this thread. Indeed there is much to be gained from them. Currently I am reading sermons from George Whitefield. (lots on the internet about him if you don't know of him) His sermons were copied word for word and thus preserved . I highly recommend reading his stuff. The language is a little difficult and you would do well to read slowly...actually study the sermons. I have been thinking of re-writing some of his stuff in modern language so more people would be interested. It would probably be best if you read ABOUT George Whitefield before reading his sermons. Here is a link to his sermons:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/whitefield/sermons.toc.html

Blackwater
06-08-2016, 08:59 AM
Go for it, Traffer! Can't hurt anything, and you'll never know who all it might help come to belief by coming to understanding.

claude
06-08-2016, 09:30 AM
My understanding has been increased through Shepherd's Chapel, which introduced me to the Strong's Concordance, which translates the original languages as used in the King James bible. These combine to give one a workable set of manuscripts of the letter our Father wrote to us, I also find Bullinger a great source, and the Companion Bible does a great job of sorting and referencing.

My biggest source has been the revelations granted by the Holy Spirit as He guides me through, quite often it takes much prayer, and then it comes like an epiphany, and I realize I have always known it, I just couldn't put it together.

post#13, we are indeed in agreement, else why would Jesus so often say, ..."have ye never read".., or, ..."have ye not read?"...

Blackwater
06-08-2016, 04:27 PM
Yes, I think we all reach a certain point where, in order to grow our understanding, we really have to get into the meat of it all, rather than just rely on the milk, and that, in my experience, comes rather slowly, at least usually, and with much study and consideration. None of us will ever "understand it all," which I again think is part of keeping us humble enough to learn, but it keeps us out of trouble and surely makes a difference in our lives. The deeper we come to understand, the more valued our belief is, and the stronger and more unshakable it becomes. And a true believer knows no real fear. After all, he need not fear if he knows it's all going to be OK for him or her, in the end, no matter what happens. Could there be greater solace than that?