357 MAX White tail load

[johnwilliamson062]

With Ohio's revisions to deer laws the last few years I have been trying out a few things trying to find the perfect rig(Encore Carbine). I've been on the edge of metallic cartridge reloading for some time now. I've actually cast some slugs previously and have the related casting equipment, but hesitant to drop powder. This left me limited to cartridges with readily available factory ammunition. My last attempt had me researching a bullet and load that would be good to 200 yards with minimal drop and reasonable recoil. There is of course, no factory load, so I started looking at reloading. Still very hesitant until I saw a cartridge reloading class pop-up on meet-up. $20 dollars and two hours all the mystery was gone and I started to really look for a combination that would meet my needs out of the 45-70. What I eventually realized was the characteristics I was looking for matched a 357 max, not a 45-70. If I was going to reload I might as well start with the right cartridge instead of trying the square peg in a round hole bit.

Now, I will pretty much have to buy a few boxes of factory ammo as the brass that is available is priced almost as high as loaded cartridges. Might as well get a nearly free shot out of it. Get things roughly sighted in and maybe hunt the first season with factory ammo(All 158s as far as my search has found).

I'm going to want to reload in the long term though, so we've come the long way round to the simple question:
What should I be loading? Accurate molds suggested their 160L mold (http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-160L-D.png). It looks like a good candidate, although I'm wondering about a gas-check (http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-160LG-D.png) and a little hesitant since the factory ammunition and most available commercial bullets are so close at 158. For some illogical reason it just seems like, if I am going to cast a bullet, I should go ahead and cast one a little more unique. A 200 grain something or other. On the other hand, there does seem to be a good bit of data available for the 158 bullets, and it seems like that could probably be used for the 160s also.

Does anyone know if there is a supplier of cast bullets off of the accurate molds? Something where I could buy 50 or 100 of an assortment and give them a try before buying a mold?

Cabela's stocks caliber specific reloading manuals that are a compilation of many of the different publishers data for a cartridge. I was disappointed to see they do not have one for 357 Max. I have a Hornady 7th ed. manual with several 158-160 and a few 180 grain loads along with lighter bullets. Are there any manuals with a relatively large amount of data for 357 max? 200 grain?

[johnwilliamson062]

And then he flipped the page in the manual and found the 357 Rem Max (T/C) section.
I'm accutely aware there is an issue using lead bullet data for jacketed bullets, but does that also go for using jacketed data for lead? All the Hornady data is jacketed. I guess I need another manual.
Lyman 4th ed on its way. I suppose it will have info regarding the safety of GC and load data.
What a wandering series of posts. Sorry.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

A gas check generally allows you to get an accurate load more easily than what might happen with a plain based boolit. And, the GC allows higher velocity with softer alloy. This is good for expansion. I would suggest a 180 gr WFN GC from NOE.

[jcren]

Lee makes a lovely 200 grain flat point intended for a 35 rem that is finding wide use in 357 mag for a sledge hammer round. Haven't tried it, but should be just right for a t/c max hunting round.

[Hamish]

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=35_289&products_id=1137&osCsid=8nnko9bdt34vkrtj5bb7has0d5

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-200RG-D.png


I know a fellow that LOVES Alliant MP300 in the Max,,,,,,

[johnwilliamson062]

That Lee mold at $21 from midway as a starting point is pretty hard to pass by. Pretty much everything I'm looking for on the heavy side of my options.

[tja6435]

169556
This is a 204gr, .45" nose 360-200-LFN/GC mold I had Veral Smith make me for my Freedom Arms .357 Mag and my .357 Max Blackhawk. This batch has aluminum gas checks and LBT Commercial lube. I size them to .358 for both rigs and the rifles.

[johnwilliamson062]

Nice. Why did you go with aluminum gas checks? I am unfamiliar with using aluminum.

[tja6435]

Cheaper than Hornady, I can make my own with about a $130 plus materials.

[johnwilliamson062]

Nice. Looks like payback on that is about 5,000 checks less labor labor. I will have to wait and see if I get serious enough for that.
I feel a little overwhelmed starting with an unpopular cartridge and cast boolits to be honest.
Are you getting improved quality over factory GCs?

[johnwilliamson062]

I searched through a number of boxes and found the equipment I bought ten years ago to cast/load 357. Found I already have the lee 358-158-2R. No gas check. And a 105 grain one with a gas check.
I wonder what that 105 grain would do to a squirrel. Probably not much use for deer though.

[johnwilliamson062]

Just received Lyman #4 cast bullet handbook.
Jokes on me.
No data for 357 max.

[CLAYPOOL]

Goggle "SuperMag's" , .357 SuperMag's, ETC. All kinds of info for shooting those in 70's. DAN WESSON"S try that.

[dubber123]

I personally would lean towards a 180 gr+ boolit for the Max. it has enough capacity to push them plenty fast. The LEE mold mentioned is a close copy of the RCBS 35-200 mold, and that mold is generally regarded as one of, if not THE best design for .35 cal. I shoot an NOE copy of the RCBS design, and it is an excellent shooter. Good luck.

[1966DDart]

John,

Not sure where you are in Ohio but, I'd offer to lend you a hand with your Maximum if you'd like (PM me, if you'd like). I had MGM build me a custom 20" barrel for my Encore using a Shilen 1:18" twist blank (0.357"...not 0.358") since I wanted to shoot mostly pistol bullets. So far I've taken a couple of deer using Hornady 180 XTPs and they worked EXCEPTIONALLY well! More recently I've gotten a Liberty Mystic-X suppressor for it and have started playing around with cast boolits at subsonic speeds. I got my hands a several hundred NOE 360-230's (230gr solid FN and ~215gr HP's). They seem to be stabilizing and grouping nicely. Of course, I'll keep those shoots under 75 yards...if I decide to use it. I also have a great plinking loading using 140gr Chey-Cast bullets and 5.4grs of Trail Boss. Well anyway, enough rambling! PM me if you'd like to chat more and I'll do what I can to help you out.

ps....might even be able to spare a few brass to help get you started. I'll warn you though...it's easy to totally fall in love with the 357 Maximum!

[P Flados]

A cast 158 round nose is normally not a first choice for deer.

Something with a meplat (SWC or RF) is normally preferred.

My 357 max pistols like the Lee C358-200-RF. I powder coat and can push the Lee boolit just as hard as I did the J words.

Now if someone really wanted to make a top notch hunting boolit out of the 158 round nose, it may be possible.

A pure or near pure nose, hard base boolit with powder coat should give performance close to the partition type J words.

However, given the cost of a Lee RF mold (they have both a 158 & the 200), it is hard to justify the effort required for a soft nose.

[tja6435]

Here's some boolits from my LBT 360-160-FN/GC mold. Home made checks using a Freechex 3 and Yonky's copper. Lbt Blue lube. Weighs in around 166gr fully dressed

[randy_68]

I built 3 .357 Max rifles and they were all very accurate. 2 were H&R Handi rifles and one was a custom barreled CVA Apex. I loaded some Noe 360-180 wfngc in mine and they shot great however I never had a chance to shoot a deer with one. I did use the Hornady 180ssp over 28.5 gr AA1680 in my rifles and it was deadly on deer. The 180xtp were also very accurate and sure made a mess out of a ground hog I shot. pretty well took off the top 1/3 of him.

[Viper225]

My 2 favorite bullets would be the NOE 360-180 WFN-GC and the Hornady 180 XTP.
I have had the 360-180 up close to 2K with no leading issues at all. (13" Contender) (Hornady Gas Checks, and White Label Caranuba Red bullet lube) The 360-180 has a generous lube groove, A Good Thing :)
You have a couple choices on brass at the moment Jamerson 357 Maximum, and Starline 360 Dan Wesson. I have been doing a great deal of work up using 360 Dan Wesson Brass, and I have been pleased with the results. I have 3 bullet seater dies I am using. I seat the bullet, then I have been running it into a RCBS Taper Crimp die to iron out the bell, then into the RCBS roll crimp die. I highly recommend Seating the bullet, and crimping in two separate steps.
For primers be sure and use Small Rifle primers for anything above light revolver loads.
For powders several should work well. The two I like best are H110 and 300 MP so far. Some seem to like 1680. I have not worked with AA#9 or Lil'Gun so far. Both should work fine.
I have worked with the 180 XTP seated .200 deep in the 360 Dan Wesson case. I have been just Taper Crimping this load. I think using a cannelure tool to add a third crimp groove .200 up from the bullet base to roll crimp into, using the 180 XTP would work even better. Adding a second lower crimp groove to the Hornady 158 XTP Flat Point would be a good thing also.
I have heard that the Hornady 180 SSP is discontinued. Per David Whites testing in the 357 Maximum, he was not getting expansion with this bullet. Lots of game killed with this bullet over the years, but mostly due to good bullet placement, not expansion. The 180 XTP bullets did fine in his testing.
I have spent a lot of time doing searches for loading data, and I have found a lot on line. Some I also determined were a hair warm for a Contender. Your Encore should take even the hotter loads I have came across, However primer pockets will suffer at some point. Work up loads carefully.
I like the 357 Maximum a lot.

Bob

[leftiye]

In a single shot crimping isn't necessary. Not crimping, indeed not sizing - if the case will hold the bullet reliably - totally removes the crimp, sizing and bullet hold as a variable. Thumb tight or a little more can be a good situation. Seated into the lands will take care of ignition issues in most cases. In this particular cartridge powders that are too slow and need a crimp to ignite well are generally not even available/amoung the powders used.

[quilbilly]

I have had a 357 max T/C carbine for many years and last winter added that 200+ gr Lee mold to the stable of other 357 boolits I have used in it because I wanted to use the carbine as a light bear rifle. When I got that mold I did some terminal ballistics tests in soaked, compressed phone books at 40 yards. The performance of that boolit amazed me. At 1750 fps with both the 200 gr RF-GC and a 162 gr SWC-GC, the penetration of the 162 gr was 12 inches (more than adequate for deer out to 150 yards. On the other hand, the 200 gr penetration was 22"plus with huge expansion which was much more than needed so I reduced the muzzle velocity to 1600 fps to make that light weight carbine more pleasant to shoot. One of the other boolits I shoot in that carbine is the Lyman 175 gr plain base SWC which I have pushed it to 1400 fps with not a hint of leading. At that velocity or even a little lower, that 173 gr. boolit is more than adequate for deer out to 100 yards as well as being fun to shoot in quantity.

[johnwilliamson062]

I received my barrel. I haven't opened the package yet. I am hoping to find a moment tonight after my wife is in bed:)
I need to get sights/optics on it. I will have to see exactly what D&T pattern it has front and rear.
I will start out with some factory loads.
That should give me 60-100 Jamerson headstamp brass to start reloading. Reviews aren't great, but should be ok to get started.
I think I will reload some factory bullets to start. There is a ton of data for FMJ and I am hesitant to use most of the data sources I have available for lead bullets. No offense to anyone here or elsewhere, but using load data posted on the internet by someone I don't know when I'm just starting out seems like a bad idea.
I'm guessing I will get set-up and aquainted with a factory load over the summer and hunt with that this Fall.
Sometime this fall I will start loading some jacketed commercial bullets.
Over the Winter I will load some commercial lead bullets.
Late winter or early spring I will start working on a lead boolit load I can hunt with next fall(and thereafter).

Could go faster if I could spend more time at the range, but getting to the range is a luxury.

Something some of you may enjoy:
At some point in that time frame I hope to get a suppressor for the rig so I can safely hunt without ear protection. Looking at the Griffin Armament Optimus as it will probably be the only one I ever buy.

[johnwilliamson062]

I'm also hoping to find some brass at the next OGCA meeting.

[Viper225]

As I mentioned above I have been looking over a lot of internet posted loading data.
Something to keep in mind. You have about 3 different strength levels of 357 maximums.

Weakest would be Revolvers.
Moderate would be Contenders and H&R SB1's. The SB1 receivers are the shotgun and lower pressure rifle receivers with the Large Firing Pins.
Strong would be Encores, and Single Shots on SB2 Hi Power Rifle receivers with small firing pins. NOTE: I have seen 357 Magnum Barrels marked SB2 on SB1 receivers from the factory. Look at the firing pin size.

The three strengths of firearms able to shoot 357 Maximum ammunition makes for conservative book data, even in the Contender Only section.

I have been testing lots of loads in a 357 Maximum Contender. Some internet data I have found, normally worked up in H&R Handi Rifles, and Encores is hotter than I plan to shoot in a Contender.

I suggest using 357 Maximum Single Shot " Contender " loading data until you are very comfortable reloading, and have a handle on what signs to look out for with loads that are too heavy.

If you are working up loads carefully using an Encore more than likely you will loosen up primer pockets before you hurt anything else. That same load in a Contender could stretch the frame. That same load in a Ruger Super BlackHawk might blow the cylinder. This is the reason the factory loading data can be a little on the conservative side depending on what you are shooting.

One needs to do a lot of research before exceeding book data.

From my limited testing of Jameson brass, you may loosen up primer pockets way early with Book Loads. I will have a much better handle on this next week when I switch from 360 Dan Wesson Brass to Jameson 357 Maximum brass for load development.

Just my two cents.

Bob

[jaysouth]

John,

Not sure where you are in Ohio but, I'd offer to lend you a hand with your Maximum if you'd like (PM me, if you'd like). I had MGM build me a custom 20" barrel for my Encore using a Shilen 1:18" twist blank (0.357"...not 0.358") since I wanted to shoot mostly pistol bullets. So far I've taken a couple of deer using Hornady 180 XTPs and they worked EXCEPTIONALLY well! More recently I've gotten a Liberty Mystic-X suppressor for it and have started playing around with cast boolits at subsonic speeds. I got my hands a several hundred NOE 360-230's (230gr solid FN and ~215gr HP's). They seem to be stabilizing and grouping nicely. Of course, I'll keep those shoots under 75 yards...if I decide to use it. I also have a great plinking loading using 140gr Chey-Cast bullets and 5.4grs of Trail Boss. Well anyway, enough rambling! PM me if you'd like to chat more and I'll do what I can to help you out.

ps....might even be able to spare a few brass to help get you started. I'll warn you though...it's easy to totally fall in love with the 357 Maximum!

What powder do you use for the 230 Gr. and what is a good starting load. Thanks

[P Flados]

Viper, I just noted the "obvious" warning that has not been mentioned.

Working up slow and cautious is usually good when substituting stuff.

However, there is a special case where you can get in trouble with this approach.

H110 and WW296 are very popular powders that work well in the 357 mag/max. They really are great, but they can cause problems any time you have too much free space in the casing. Using a load published for a 357 magnum in a 357 maximum case would be an easy way to make this happen.

You may want to use one of these powders in your encore and you may want to substituting a boolit instead of j word. This is really no big deal. Try to start out "mid range" with the powder charge (if there is a range of data available) and start out seating the boolit at least as deep into the case as the j word loads would have been.

After firing you starting loads, pay attention to how subsequent loads behave if you increase the free space. If you go too far with the free space the boom/flash will start getting inconsistent and/or worse with reduced loads or increased OAL. This is caused by poor ignition of the H110 / WW296. Primers may also start to look worse.

I have fired lots of "home brew" 357 max boolit loads with WW296. I never had any problems at all, but I never went for "reduced" loads.

I have had much more issues trying to work up WW 296 boolit loads in 30 Herrett and 30-30 for my contender. I gave up on this powder in these cases and went to I4227 or slower.

[johnwilliamson062]

I'm going to have to start with published 357 max data. I'm acutely aware of the increased case area issues, "j word," checked, and lead difference issues, and some others and don't feel anywhere comfortable enough to try crossing the beams at this point. There is a sufficient amount of jacketed bullet data available. I may just make getting set-up and shooting some factory ammo my goal for this year, then loading some jacketed commercial bullets next year, and working up to a lead/check bullet in two years. I just passed 30, so I hope to have quite a few more years to work this out :)

[1966DDart]

What powder do you use for the 230 Gr. and what is a good starting load. Thanks

I'll have to double check when I get home (currently working in the UK until early July) but, I'm pretty sure I was right at 5.5gr of Red Dot. With the 215gr HP version of that bullet, I think I dropped down to 5.1gr. Again, I'll have to double check. There were NO signs of pressure and Quickload was showing the pressure WELL below the Maximum's maximum.

[gwpercle]

That Lee mold at $21 from midway as a starting point is pretty hard to pass by. Pretty much everything I'm looking for on the heavy side of my options.
Go ahead and start with the double cavity Lee , read all about Lee mould prep, deburing and cleaning before you use it. They come with a few rough edges that need smoothing out.
For $21.00 you have to do a bit of hand finishing but it's a value and the double cavities are good.
Get the C358-200-RF , use gas checks and learn. That would be a great weight in that round, Silhouette shooters used heavy boolits in their T/C Contenders . Not a great amount of data out there but dig deep and you will find some. Wasn't the most popular round to come down the pike. Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook #4 might have some...my book's at home, I'll check . Try the powder companies load data sites, Accurate Powder site shows load data. Just search "357 maximum load data" some things pop up .
Once you get things sorted out and find you are going to stay with the 357 MAX and this boolit , treat yourself to a Noe version of this mould. Casting with one is just a pure joy, they are nice and I only own two. The other 2 dozen are Lee , Lyman and one RCBS...the NOE is the Cadillac .
I bought and tried a bunch Lee moulds for 38/357 mag and 9mm Luger and when I decided on my favorites....bought a 3 cavity 38/357 and a 4 cavity 9 mm NOE mould in the weights and designs I settled on. Not a bad plan if you don't know exactly what you want.
Good luck and load safe,
Gary

[johnwilliamson062]

Well, I ended up missing the last OGCA meeting. I hadn't realized in coincided with taking my wife on her first trip to DC and Williamsburg.
Getting down to crunch time if I want this to be ready to go for this season, so I started ordering the finishing touches tonight. 357 Max on ammo seek brought up something new:
http://www.ammo-texas.com/shop/rifle-ammo/357-maximum/
Would that be better brass than the Jameson brass? Limited knowledge of nickel brass, but remember reading it is not fun to reload.

[MT Gianni]

Any max brass you can find , get. Nickle is not harder to reload it can and will after several years flake and can damage a die.

[johnwilliamson062]

make any difference if it is steel or carbide? I'll buy a box and give them a try.

[P Flados]

Nickle plated brass works fine.

I have used 357 max, 357 mag and 38 special nickle plated brass for decades & the minor flaking has caused no problems at all.

FYI, It is a real shame that Jamison appears to have made such a limited run. It was only available for a few months and the price was steep (I paid something like 40.60 per 100).

This add was for new ammo at $37.50 per 50 ($75 per 100).

It is only ~$34 per 100 above what I paid for brass.

Reloading J words will cost at least $29 per 100 for primers (~$3), powder (~$6) and projectiles (~$20).

[Greg]

35 Thor in Florida I don’t know if this was ever posted with the thread on the 35 Thor, but it’s my experiences to date with a 357 Maximum…
I had cast the .35 Thor out of 50:50 + ¾% Sn alloy (236 grains) and loaded over 18½ grains of W296 for 1671 fps out of a 22" H&R barrel. 357 Maximum brass at 2.200" oal, lit with a RP 7½ primer.

I took my 15 year old neighbor boy and my ole hunting buddy to Fla to hunt (more like assonate) some hogs.

the kid was shooting the 357 Max and had first dibs as having little to none practical experience. directly, a nice @185 lb hog shows up. him & I were side x side in an elevated blind.

now youth Deer season a nice 6 point walks in on us on his side of the tree we was sittin again an I first notice that he took to shaking like a leaf ( possum passing a peach pit, really ) that lil buck had him pinned like a bird dog on a covey of Quail birds. that boy shook and quivered for the whole 5-10 minutes that the lil Buck had him dead to right the whole time I was calmly whispering instructions to move real slooow, wait till the deers head is behind a tree ect. he did real good, but the scent finally got to the lil buck an he walked away with out a care nor a scratch. kid took to second guessing, shoulda, coulda moved his lil 20 ga real fast and killed him. course us ole timers know lots better, but couldn’t seem to break the kids funk.

any way I got nothing but love for the boy so he gets best gun/load and first shot on the Florida hog trip…

nice eating hog shows up and the boy is solid as a rock, a lil coaching and the 4x Simmons Pro Diamond settles in an BOOM ! (no shakes, no dilly dandling, just take no mercy, boom) at the shot three things happen fast, right now fast ! hog’s back half drops, the hog squeals and falls over, kicks 2-3 times and is grave yard dead. right now, right there.

to say that I’m impressed is an understatement, I’m very proud of the boy and his maturity, but the 35 Thor just flat works, right now!

that hog was dead before the gun quit recoiling.

when It come my turn, I was shootin a H&R 30-30 with a old Lee GB 312-155 grain FP out of air cooled WW alloy at 2015 fps.

my hog was about 200 lbs and come in to he feeder with a group of a dozen other hogs, and he took his sweet ole time to get clear of the others…finally it was time for the 30-30 to speak, at the shot the hog took off like a streak ( I had lost sight of him in the recoil) when the gun come down it wasn’t no hog laying dead ! nothing !

I asked the kid where did he go, I was having a hard time seeing that the 30 caliber was not as efficient as the 35 Thor…same basic profile but 55 grains lighter, an maybe 50% harder.

well, the hog was dead but after about a 5 yard run.

in the Palmetto scrub a 5 yard run is a long way, it was blood every ware in the sand, just not as impressive as the 35 Thor. same basic bollit placement ( just tight behind the shoulder, but cut the back edge of the scapula )

Greg

[leftiye]

Good times!

[Sur-shot]

John,
This is my avitar enlarged a bit, it is just one of my 357 Super Mag rifles (Max if you must). My favorite cast load for the rifles is 23.5 gr of H-110 with Fed 205m primer under an RCBS 200gr FP with a profile crimp, NO roll crimp on a single shot if you want it to shoot, this pictured little rifle shoots .5 inches at 2,003 fps. It will roll Bambi stone cold dead.

The 180gr RCBS will produce about 100 fps or so more velocity and about the same accuracy.

I have owned a lot of the 357 SMs over the years, well over two dozen, there is a good bit of assumption written here which is not correct for a rifle. You go read David White's writings and his forum about the 357 SM rifles, because the handgun reloading stuff is worthless for your rifle adventure, you are not restricted to a cylinder or cylinder length, so forget it.
Ed

[Moleman-]

Sur-shot, I have been shooting the same bullet at around 1850fps but have yet to hunt with them and have been using the discontinued 180gr ssp at around 2150fps. How hard are you casting the rcbs 200gr-fp? In order for them to function in my semi rifle they have to be harder than I'd like so I haven't tried them on deer yet.

[Beerd]

Moleman-
There is a sticky on casting soft point bullets with any mould.
Search for Bruce B soft point.
It could be what you are looking for to hunt with the rcbs 200gr bullet.
..

[Moleman-]

Thank you Beerd, I hadn't found that yet and I think it will be most useful! I did talk about making soft tipped bullets last fall with KLR on another site but haven't tried it yet.

[leftiye]

If you use heat treated boolits, you can simply anneal the points/tips. I use tempilaq 300 degree. Paint the points (even if they are flat and not a point), and heat until the tempilaq melts. One advantage of heat treating.

[johnwilliamson062]

Spent some time reading on Avid White's forum. A lot of info there. Will take me some time to get through it.

[johnwilliamson062]

David's Forum has been a great resource. He posted today starline was running 357 MAX brass and allowing pre-orders. I got my 250, which should last me a good while solving that problem and eliminating working with different head stamps.
https://www.starlinebrass.com/order-online/caliber.cfm/caliber/357/
Order-up. I am sure a good pre-order will convince them to run more for inventory.