1885 Front Sight Question

[brasshog]

I have a Browning (Miroku Tang Model) 1885 High Wall Traditional Hunter in 45-70. The factory front sight is a bead which I really don't like for longer shots on our small deer. I want a simple steel blade type of sight that will preferably keep the same point of aim. Is this the correct part http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/sights/front-sights/sight-assembly-front-prod3077.aspx ? I ask because I don't have a blade to measure and would guess that I need to remove my bead sight and measure the height by measuring the height minus half of the bead diameter. The downside is that the website doesn't list the blade height. My goal is to make this a 400 yard hunting rifle. The bead sight from the factory makes it very hard for me to judge any hold over at longer ranges. I'm looking for a minute of deer/hog sight that doesn't smother a target at 200 yards+ that still allows for quick target acquisition in the swamps.. Thank you.

[marlinman93]

As you push your shots out further, you'll want a narrower blade, or it will totally obscure the intended target. In my opinion the sight you linked is too wide a blade for accurate shooting at farther ranges. I'd get a blade no wider than .050" width. If it's slightly taller you can file it down, and test fire it until it prints at the distance you prefer, with the loads you use. I try to get close in height,, but always error on the tall side and adjust with a file at the bench.

[NSB]

If you're really looking to make this gun a 400 yard deer gun, don't even bother with just changing the front sight. To shoot that distance at deer is first, and foremost, mostly a waste of time with open/iron sights. Now, before all the long range guys jump in here saying it isn't, remember that those people are shooting long range at stationary targets...not deer. That 45-70 or yours just isn't going to make the cut on a deer at that distance. Reason being, they usually don't stand still long enough while that slow moving bullet is on its way, the drop is unbelievable at that distance (even a lot closer it's a mortar coming in), and without a very, very good rest any target will be a BIG challenge at that distance. I have, or have had, several 45-70s and my current favorite is my Winchester/Miroku model and I've shot deer with it. It's very accurate, but not for what you have in mind. If you are determined to hunt with this gun at long range, get a complete set of sights with some miniscule chance of working at long range. Something like a good set of MVA front, and especially rear sights. You'll need a good, very good, vernier sight to be able to shoot that far and you'll really need a good range finder. Then you'll have to learn how to use the rule on the sight to adjust it for those distances. Can a deer be shot at 400 yards with that gun? Yes, under very ideal conditions, but not very often. If the deer decides to take even one step as you fire the gun, you'll probably miss. Do the math on how long the bullet is in flight at that distance and it won't take you long to figure out half of your problem. Good luck. If you're still determined, get some GOOD sights and forget about simply changing the front blade.
Here's a better suggestion and it still lacks a lot of what's needed to make 400 yard shots. Get a scope.

[brasshog]

I agree marlin that a thin sight that is taller would be in order. NSB... you make a very valid point concerning drop and time in flight. I can make very very long shots with iron sights and can hit moving targets (humvee) traveling up to 45mph with a rifle (yes deer are smaller) but I'm really not that experienced with tossing bowling ball sized rounds that are slower in comparison even half way out there. I would prefer to stay well away from a scope on this rifle if possible as I tend to hunt in close in the swamps (under 30 yards) alot. The 400 yards is my absolute max distance for this rifle. The tang sight is set for 200 yards atm while the mid sights are set for 100 yards. Basically the spot that I want to hunt this year is a "V" at the treeline jetting into some fields that will allow a maximum of 400 yards down each side. This spot will allow me to cover a large amount of tree line that opens up to some open fields from a solid stand or tripod. Sort of catch them coming and going from the fields. The goal is to find a front sight that will increase my short range target and hunting while allowing for me to try to find a spot to test stretching "her" legs out some to see what the rifle, favorite load, and I are capable of. If it is less than 400 yards then so be it. I just want to know what my new maximum shots will be with this rifle in various shooting "stances" so as to not risk wounding an animal and loosing it. Any distance that I can't keep them in an eight inch circle is too far with a six inch circle being preferred. If this were a different caliber then those circles would ideally be smaller. I will have a nice rangefinder and spotting scope with me along with rifle dope out to 400 yards in 25 yard increments if possible. Also, another reason for this distance is because I dream of moving up north in the next few years into larger game territory and although I have never hunted anything larger than small to medium deer I would like to have the rifle dope for hunting a moose or caribou if I ever had the chance.

[NSB]

Just keep in mind what your bullet drop and time in flight are. Here's one example: With a 400g bullet starting at 1450fps and a 100yd zero, your bullet drop at 400yds is a whopping twenty feet! If you don't use it, go to ballisticcalculator.com and plug in the numbers. Good luck, have fun, and shoot straight.

[brasshog]

Checking the time in flight data I see that it's not too bad at 400 yards compared to what I'm used to. It's almost a full 800 milliseconds slower actually. Still a difficult shot but not impossible nor improbable. Thank you NSB. I hadn't thought of comparing them yet as I've been working all day since I first posted this question. Also, since I'm firing NW or NE down the "V" I doubt that the coriolis effect will be a problem at that short of a range with a shorter time in flight since I'm deviating northward. Btw...beautiful rifle NSB ! I love those case hardened scope mounts and rings.

[brasshog]

I need to find the SD and BC for my lyman #457121PH at 1200 fps (preferred load). I sometimes use that site but thanks for reminding me of it as I had forgotten about it. The dope that I'll carry hunting will be "on paper" dope of course but that will give a good idea on starting elevations. Again, 400 yards is the absolute maximum range lol especially for my ageing eyes ( I need new glasses ).

Note- The site for the ballisticcalculator.com seems to be no longer available

[NSB]

Handloads.Com Ballistic Calculator (http://www.handloads.com/calc/index.html)

[brasshog]

Thank you

[brasshog]

Ok. Let me correct myself concerning those previous statements. I believe NSB was correct on a few items and I was reading too quickly. I'm used to a 1950 millisecond time in flight ( I erred and read 1.950 earlier for some reason) for a 900 yard open sight shot. The 457121ph time in flight at 300yds is four times worse coming in at .84 seconds. That is a huge difference. I mention 300 yards because of the next sentence. The bullet does drop twenty feet (127.86 in) at four hundred yards and even with my 200 yard zero I think that even with the correct rifle dope that would be an unethical shot for me personally as it poses to high a risk for wounding. At 300yds the drop is 129.06 inches which with a 200 yard zero has an adjusted impact of 46.14 inches. That is approximately a three feet hold over the back at 300 yds (std deer shoulder height-39in, std deer heart height below spine-12in= one foot from the bottom and three feet on top) with a heavy 3/4 sec lead time. That is doable IF the rifle, load, and I can keep five shots in an eight inch or less circle from the "ideal" shooting stance and hence would be the maximum that I would try to attain on paper before heading afield. It would also be a self imposed absolute maximum in the field with 250 yards being the offhand maximum. Thanks guys. Guess I'm looking for a sight blade blank to file down that is sorta thin.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It isn't just the drop at 400 yards that matters, but the drop at 350 and 450, for in real-life scenery it is very easy to misjudge distance that much. There are plenty of situations where you can be pretty sure a deer won't move during the flight time of that rifle, but there is no way of getting around bullet drop, and even the 45-70 can let a deer go a long way and die badly, if it is badly placed. You could use a laser rangefinder and a simple table taped to the butt, but if you are going to go modern, .264 Winchester Magnum is a simpler sort of modern.

This sounds like an excellent 200 yard rifle, and the sight you linked to appears good for that range as it is. If you do need to make it finer, don't file it to an inverted V at the top. When a sight is blurred (and it always is to some extent when you try to see a target as well), a point changes its apparent height much more than a flat top.

[NSB]

+1 on the flat top on the sight. IMO, you don't need a very thin sight for deer. It's all about being able to see the sight and centering the deer on the sight. You need to set the sight(s) up to suit your eyes capabilities. I shot long range silhouette with handgun and I always found an advantage to a sight my eye could easily focus on, and that was rarely a really thin sight. In fact, I may hold some kind of record for owning the most sights on every given firearm[smilie=f: I've played with all different widths, etc looking for that "perfect" sight picture. The single biggest thing is leaving enough gap on each side to get it centered.

[marlinman93]

The biggest issue with shooting longer distances is determining those distances accurately with slower moving projectiles that have a fair amount of drop. Since your bullet arc passes through twice (once after leaving the muzzle and once dropping back down) it can become a big problem. Not only will you need to determine the distance, but if the game is closer, you might shoot under them, or low enough to wound the game.
If you are still hunting from a blind you might be able to use a range finder to get distances to various key points within your hunting area. Then if the deer comes into view near any point, you have the range already figured out. But if you have to make sight adjustments, and quickly take a shot, you'll still be challenged to get a clean shot off.
I hunt with old single shot rifles, and I practice from 100-150 yds. to ensure I can hit a 6" dinger plate almost every shot. These are distances I feel comfortable judging, or estimating, so I'm not worried about wounding game. A little off at this distance wont end up in disaster for the deer. Since I don't feel comfortable using Kentucky windage to shoot closer or farther at game; I prefer to stay within reason with my shots.

[NSB]

169459It's not the gun, it's the Indian....really. Here's what the gun is capable of at 100yds.....see pic. It just doesn't translate in the spur of the moment if calculations are required to shoot a moving animal, or an animal that may move. Even with a range finder it's problematic given time constraints, and all the other factors. Do as you please, it's really your call. Just be aware of all the variables. In my "comfort zone" for deer, I go for around 200 yds, and as stated above, I already know certain distances from having ranged them before I see something.

[brasshog]

Thanks NSB. You pic made me wonder what my groups measured so I went out to the shop and grabbed some targets to measure my shot group's. They average 1 7/8" for three well aimed rounds and for a five round rapid fire group (six rounds in sixty seconds) I'm getting 2 3/8 x 2 5/8 groups from the bench with it opening up by an inch for the called flier at 100 yards. I also noted that I tend to shoot the group almost two inches higher when in a hurry. I guess that I'm falling into the old habit of splitting hairs again and trying to make clover leafs when I know that this ain't the caliber for that lol. I couldn't find the 200 yard targets out in the shop. I have a tendency to write on targets when I'm casting and get a business call because they are close at hand. They end up in the trash. I guess it just comes down to me not liking a bead on a rifle really and not so much an accuracy issue. BTW guys I appreciate all of the input. There were many things that I didn't take the time to think of or take into account when I first posted this question. Now to find a blank front sight. Man I wished that I liked the look of a globe on this rifle but I don't. They deserve a longer barrel in my opinion.

[NSB]

brasshog, something you might not know about these guns: Due to the design of the stock and action, they are quite prone to opening groups up simply by a minor change in downward or upward pressure while shooting off a bench. The action is acting like a bridge and it doesn't take hardly anything to make a significant change in POI. Make sure you have the front of the gun on the bag in exactly the same spot each time and don't push your face down on the stock when shooting. You'll get your best groups with these guns by shooting almost sitting straight up. I often shoot them standing off a tall bench or sitting straight up with a very high rest in front of me. Play around with that concept and actually move the resting point around a bit and you'll easily see what I'm talking about. My Low Wall is even a bit touchier. You'll shrink those groups up quite a bit.

[marlinman93]

I sight my single shots in off a rest. But before I leave the range I fire a 3 shot group sitting down with my elbows supported by my bent knees. This is my go to position for taking game, and I want to ensure that my gun hits where I want in the hunting position, not the bench/bag position.

[AbitNutz]

I added a Lyman 20MJT globe style front sight to my 1885. It's chambered for the 375 H&H and combined with a Marbles rear tang sight, it shoots stupid good. I'm not a fan of putting scopes on certain calibers, this is one of them. The thing is that you can load a 375 H&H to really high velocities and turn it into a sort of very flat shooting nuclear weapon.

[brasshog]

You have a valid point NSB. I guess I need to treat it like NEF rifle at the range after it's (NEF) got hot lol. They tend to do the same thing in my experience. My normal shooting position is fore grip resting on my hand (which is on a block) unless my pulse is too heavy. Then I toss a glove laid flat in between my hand and the wood. I really like the Lyman 20MJT but it just doesn't look right on the rifle when I'm in the swamps. Only 45 days till hog season opens so I need to do something.

[NSB]

brasshog, check out this web site and look at the 3/8" dovetail sights Andy Larson (Skinner Sights) has for sale. I put one on my Low Wall and it's perfect. I think it's what you're looking for. It can be filed down if you get the tall one and the width is perfect for a hunting sight. Just get some instant blue to put on it after you file it down. It's not even expensive, but it's a quality sight and easy to install.
http://www.skinnersights.com/front_sights_5.html

[brasshog]

I had forgotten about skinner's sights. Thanks.

[brasshog]

This would be awesome to have :D 169488

[AbitNutz]

They are neat! I was thinking about one for my 1885 but in the end went with the large Lyman up front. I really like the way it flips up.

[marlinman93]

Yes, the Lyman combination with windage is a very nice and desirable front sight. But not very rugged for use as a hunting sight. Wont take much of a bump to break them. Over the decades I've collected old guns, I've sure seen a number of them broken.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I'm surprised nobody seems to have made a plain flipover blade which can be used for two or even three different elevations, like the aperture at the rear end of the M16. That, too, would be vulnerable to damage if it included windage like the one Brasshog illustrates. but surely not if it fitted closely in a slot in the ramo, or even extending into the barrel.

While it is true about needing a clear open space on each side of the blade if you use an open rear sight, I think an aperture sight is much better for most purposes, and worse for none I know of. Unless I was shooting at ranges requiring a lot of elevation, I would rather trust a receiver or Lyman-style tang sight than a ladder type mounted on the tang.

[northmn]

Some of the target tang sights are incredibly precise for these big rifles. However lets face it, there is debate over the ethics of shooting at game at extreme ranges like 400 yards with a modern scoped hiogh velocity rifle. Matthews pointed out that in target shooting, range is not as big of an issue as wind. Sights can be set for known ranges but doping wind is the biggest challenge. In the hunting fields even range finders have issues for the precision some might want for doping range. If one were setting in a stand you could use the old trick mentioned where landmarks were measured and marked for range. I personally consider my 45-70 about a 150 yard weapon. Mounting sights for long range might interfere with the more common shots offered. The very fine sights are a deliberate system kind of like using high powers in scopes adn not as fast for pickup.

DP

[marlinman93]

I'm surprised nobody seems to have made a plain flipover blade which can be used for two or even three different elevations, like the aperture at the rear end of the M16. That, too, would be vulnerable to damage if it included windage like the one Brasshog illustrates. but surely not if it fitted closely in a slot in the ramo, or even extending into the barrel.

While it is true about needing a clear open space on each side of the blade if you use an open rear sight, I think an aperture sight is much better for most purposes, and worse for none I know of. Unless I was shooting at ranges requiring a lot of elevation, I would rather trust a receiver or Lyman-style tang sight than a ladder type mounted on the tang.

Something like the old King Triple bead would work well to allow three different height blades. The king used 3 different style beads, with ivory, brass, and plain steel bead. They were very rugged, and well built. Probably cost too much today to manufacture, and sell enough.

[marlinman93]

Some of the target tang sights are incredibly precise for these big rifles. However lets face it, there is debate over the ethics of shooting at game at extreme ranges like 400 yards with a modern scoped hiogh velocity rifle. Matthews pointed out that in target shooting, range is not as big of an issue as wind. Sights can be set for known ranges but doping wind is the biggest challenge. In the hunting fields even range finders have issues for the precision some might want for doping range. If one were setting in a stand you could use the old trick mentioned where landmarks were measured and marked for range. I personally consider my 45-70 about a 150 yard weapon. Mounting sights for long range might interfere with the more common shots offered. The very fine sights are a deliberate system kind of like using high powers in scopes adn not as fast for pickup.

DP

I have both Rocky Mountain blade rear sight, and tang sight on my old singles for hunting. I set the tang sight for 150 yds., and anything below that I use the Rocky Mountain barrel sight. Still wont shoot over 200 yds. for deer hunting, but using both makes me more comfortable at the 200 yd. and less ranges I hunt.

[brasshog]

Wind is always hard to judge. That's why I prefer to put out range flags every fifty yards if I'm hunting in an open area. The 50yd and 100yd flags are not the same color. I have decided to keep the shots under 300 yards and less if my capability with the rifle, load, and position limit that. I'm all about good ethics and hunting but remember that I'm also considering "one day" being able to hit larger game such as elk, moose, and caribou out to 300 yards with my favorite load. Hog season opens next month and it's all close quarters (under 75 yards) for that. If I'm going to change sights I probably need to do it before that but atm my range time is limited due to heavy workload.

[NSB]

Wind is always hard to judge. That's why I prefer to put out range flags every fifty yards if I'm hunting in an open area. The 50yd and 100yd flags are not the same color. I have decided to keep the shots under 300 yards and less if my capability with the rifle, load, and position limit that. I'm all about good ethics and hunting but remember that I'm also considering "one day" being able to hit larger game such as elk, moose, and caribou out to 300 yards with my favorite load. Hog season opens next month and it's all close quarters (under 75 yards) for that. If I'm going to change sights I probably need to do it before that but atm my range time is limited due to heavy workload.
From reading your posts, I'm confident you'll develop a comfort range where you'll be taking your ethical shots. I'm sure with some time and patience you'll find out what that distance is. You're on the right track.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Wind is always hard to judge. That's why I prefer to put out range flags every fifty yards if I'm hunting in an open area. The 50yd and 100yd flags are not the same color. I have decided to keep the shots under 300 yards and less if my capability with the rifle, load, and position limit that. I'm all about good ethics and hunting but remember that I'm also considering "one day" being able to hit larger game such as elk, moose, and caribou out to 300 yards with my favorite load. Hog season opens next month and it's all close quarters (under 75 yards) for that. If I'm going to change sights I probably need to do it before that but atm my range time is limited due to heavy workload.

300 is a lot with a high trajectory rifle, but it is a whole lot better than 3/4 as chancy as 400.

[marlinman93]

I personally wouldn't use flags, as I'd be concerned about how deer might react to strange flags flapping in the breeze? If you keep your shots limited to under 200 yds., I don't think mild breezes will affect the bullet enough to make a bad shot.

[KCSO]

Actually the Lyman 17A with the right insert makes a good hunting sight. IIRR Mike talks about using it in his book on buffalo guns and I have used it to 300 yards for hunting. My 45-70 with a 17A front and a large peep in the rear (a Marbles) would make consistent hits on a 10" gong at 300 yards and the bullet will go through both sides of a deer elk or buffalo at that range. The problem has already been stated.. drop. As long as I had a gong at a measured 300 yards I could hit it every shot, but if I had my buddy place the gong at an unknown range between 150 and 300 yards the hits dropped off to 50% due to faulty range estimation. I a summers practice I got to where I could estimate and dial in on a target at unknown range and make a hit on the gong about 75% of the time and that gong was just sitting there. If you cn get a good broadside standing shot and IF the deer doesn't move and IF you have made all the right guesses, you can drop a deer at close on to a 1/4 mile. For my 1885 I limit myself to 150 yards.