Power Pistol in .38 Special?

[Wayne Dobbs]

I recall seeing some data from Brian Pearce in Handloader years ago about using Power Pistol in .38 Special. Can't find the issue or any data for this. Can anybody help? I'd like to see standard and +P loads with a 158 cast boolit.

[therealhitman]

Real close to WSF and Herco. I cross reference those three to extrapolate starting loads where none are available.

[williamwaco]

Lots of pp data on the Alliant powder.com site

[odfairfaxsub]

I got my power pistol data from my speer manual

[opus]

loaddata*com has several loads, probably including pearce's since it is handloader's site essentially.

Here is one I found there, but research it for yourself, don't trust my info. Use at your own risk.



160gr
Lyman 358311 RN
Alliant
Power Pistol
4.5
gr 831 fps

[rintinglen]

The only load I have personally used is the 358-665 Lyman Boolit and 5.4 grains of Power Pistol. It did nothing spectacularly good or bad. It is another good choice, but a WW-231 or Bullseye load will probably out shoot it.

[chutesnreloads]

Handloader issue#278 page 65;Lyman 358156 Win.primer max load at +P pressure 6.3 grains Power Pistol for 1013 fps from a Ruger LCR

[Hi-Speed]

I've used 5.6 grs PP with 158 grs SWC for a good +P load. Alliant Max load with Speer LSWC and CCI 500 primers is 6.0 grs PP, obtaining velocity of 1,030 fps + in their 6 inch test revolver.

i like PP, but prefer 231 in accordance with Lyman data.

[Petrol & Powder]

The only load I have personally used is the 358-665 Lyman Boolit and 5.4 grains of Power Pistol. It did nothing spectacularly good or bad. It is another good choice, but a WW-231 or Bullseye load will probably out shoot it.

I can't shed a lot of light on Pistol Powder but if it's close to WSF, I can add a little here.
While I really like WSF in 9mm, I've never been able to get good results from WSF in 38 Special casings. My uneducated guess is that the available volume is too large in the 38 Special casing. After some attempts I returned to WW-231 and Bullseye (mostly 231). When powder was hard to come by I tried CFE Pistol and had good results as well.
I'm admittedly biased toward WW-231 due to my many years of working with it.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Thanks, guys, especially for the Handloader issue number. I've always used 231, Bullseye and Unique for .38 Special, but was wondering if the juice was worth the squeeze with PP.

[dubber123]

5.5 grains of Power Pistol and BRP's 360640 150 gr, RF is my accuracy load. It averaged 1.5" at 50 yds. (iron sights), and I managed a .9" group for 5 shots at 50 meters, (55 yards) with a few witnesses. It meters very well for me, but I did notice it seemed to work better the harder I pushed it. I use it a lot. Getting about 20# of it for $10/# has nothing to do with it ;)

[smkummer]

Handloader issue#278 page 65;Lyman 358156 Win.primer max load at +P pressure 6.3 grains Power Pistol for 1013 fps from a Ruger LCR
That is some serious power from a 2" 38 special. Maybe its what buffalo bore uses to get its ballistics. I have not seen that kind of performance with unique, bullseye or 231 in any 2" 38 special plus P with a 158 grain lead bullet.

[dubber123]

That is some serious power from a 2" 38 special. Maybe its what buffalo bore uses to get its ballistics. I have not seen that kind of performance with unique, bullseye or 231 in any 2" 38 special plus P with a 158 grain lead bullet.

I have seen 950+ fps from an 1-7/8" S&W mod 60 with a 162 gr. cast and Bullseye. Pinkie finger extraction, no indications of a problem. I dropped back .3 grains as I was getting a little bit of leading at the barrel leade with my 9 Bhn boolits. Unsure of pressures, but I feel plenty safe. The -3/10ths load was my carry load for years. It clocked 875 fps average.

[35remington]

950 with a 162 in a 1 7/8" barrel using fast Bullseye would probably be considered +P++, as that's faster by a noticeable margin than what I get with 6.0 grains Power Pistol and a 158 from the same barrel length. 6.0 grains PP is considered the upper limit of the +P range with a 158 from Alliant's data.

Small frame and older larger frame revolvers are subject to frame stretch long before loads get hard to extract, so don't let extraction effort be your guide, as pressures may be up to 15,000 psi or more beyond Plus P when this "draggy extraction" occurs.

[MarkP]

I am using it in my 1-7/8" J-Frames with 158 WFN & NOE 360-180 HP - (173 grs)

[Outpost75]

That is some serious power from a 2" 38 special. Maybe its what buffalo bore uses to get its ballistics. I have not seen that kind of performance with unique, bullseye or 231 in any 2" 38 special plus P with a 158 grain lead bullet.

Don't know about Buffalo Bore .38 Special, but pulling down their 75-grain +P in .32 ACP it appears that is what they are using, but I have settled on #2400 for my heavy .32 ACP loads because it appears that the case won't hold enough powder to blow the gun up, so a compressed case full as if loading Black Powder closely approximates the Buffalo Bore load with the heavy Accurate bullets from 77-90 grains in the. 32 ACP.

[35remington]

In regard to BB's loading of the 38 Special, their non Plus P load of the 158 LSCWHP that gets about 860 fps with "special" powders can be mostly approximated with Alliants's top end listing of 5.4 grains with a 158, which achieves about 840-845 fps, which is within hailing distance. According to Alliant this is the top end of the non Plus P range.

With Plus P pressures, the 6.0 grain listing for a 158 comes about 50-60 fps below what BB claims for their Plus P load, but quite frankly repeat fire controllability starts to suffer for me in my 638 well before that point. When all things are considered I'd rather give up some speed as I consider 850 fps from a snubbie more than quite adequate.

The only downside is that if the powder is near the bullet when the gun is fired (most likely when it is drawn from a holster) velocity is nearly 100 fps lower than if powder is by the primer. For that reason BB's standard pressure 148 WC for 850 fps is my choice, as it gets pretty much that velocity no matter where the powder is in the case. Extreme spread from powder forward to powder rearward are in the vicinity of 30 fps, which is quite good for a 38 Special. A handload duplicating that would be generously Plus P, certainly, and standard pressure loads of 3.5 grains Bullseye or Titegroup approximate 780-790 fps from the aforementioned 638.

This is controllable and accurate, and penetration is around 24 inches in gelatin....vastly plenty. Actually, I'd like it if BB would offer such a load for enhanced controllability in the lightweight snubs. In the meantime, handloads get me there.

[9.3X62AL]

That is some serious power from a 2" 38 special. Maybe its what buffalo bore uses to get its ballistics. I have not seen that kind of performance with unique, bullseye or 231 in any 2" 38 special plus P with a 158 grain lead bullet.

These were my thoughts as well--from a snubby, that is really honking it on. To date I have zero time-in-grade with Power Pistol in any caliber. Maybe I missed the bus.

35 Remington makes good points about these HEALTHY loadings in small-framed revolvers. A lot of such sidearms don't offer much grip to hold on to, so some test-firing and realistic assessment of controllability should be conducted before trusting your life to the "package"--arm, ammo, and user's abilities.

[Lloyd Smale]

other then for self defense I just don't see the reason to push the 38. Its not a deer gun and never will be. 99percent of what a guy uses one for is target shooting and rolling beer cans. Id rather have a nice pleasant load for that that's quiet and mild recoiling. I just don't see trying to make it into a 357 mag. Kind of like putting nitrous and a fat exaust pipe on a mini van.

[dubber123]

other then for self defense I just don't see the reason to push the 38. Its not a deer gun and never will be. 99percent of what a guy uses one for is target shooting and rolling beer cans. Id rather have a nice pleasant load for that that's quiet and mild recoiling. I just don't see trying to make it into a 357 mag. Kind of like putting nitrous and a fat exaust pipe on a mini van.

Well Lloyd, I have a 150 shot on a throttle switch, and another 200 connected to the horn button on my wood grained mini van. What are you trying to say? :)

[Lloyd Smale]

If your only van was that nos set up one I could see it but you have a Camaro that hauls the oats already. Same with this thing. Why push a 38 special when a guy has a 357 or 44 mag to do that with. the 38s biggest attribute is that its pleasant to shoot. Plus if you hit that button enough times with either your going to have a bunch of parts laying on the ground.:bigsmyl2:
Well Lloyd, I have a 150 shot on a throttle switch, and another 200 connected to the horn button on my wood grained mini van. What are you trying to say? :)

[9.3X62AL]

Prior to 1935, hot-rodding the 38 Special kinda made sense--in one of the more stalwart platforms so chambered. With the advent of the 357 Magnum 81 years ago and the 44 Magnum 61 years back, running this cartridge to "red-line" is counter-productive. I have Rugers for those sorts of adventure travel.

[dubber123]

I lean on the powder measure for my snubbie carry loads. I practiced with other stuff, and used them sparingly. I generally only shoot standard pressure .38 stuff, a 158 at 850 from a 4" barrel. Even that is a good bit hotter than most factory stuff. I carried a snub for 20+ years, I wanted it to be as effective as possible.

I have plenty of .357's, 44's, 45's, .475's, even a short 50-70 Contender if I need more power. If I'm carrying a snubbie, it won't have 2.7 grains of Bullseye and a wadcutter in it though ;)

[35remington]

Funny....my snubbie often has 3.5 grains Bullseye and a wadcutter in it. The high velocity variations of 158 grain loads depress me, which is why deeper seated wadcutters get the preference in my use.

[MtGun44]

6 gr PP is a nice hot load for me under a 158 cast. Accurate and about
as fast as you can push one from a .38 Spl safely.

For snubbies, 5.0 gr of Unique is a superb load. Powerful, accurate and
hits just to stock sights with 158 gr 358429 HP.

Bill

[Lloyd Smale]

I can see that train of thought. For the most part in a snubby I don't even bother with cast. Its a gold dot or xtp at plus p level. I don't plink a whole lot with my snubbys or my 2 lcp 380 rugers so I don't even bother with cast in them. A box of jacketed bullets will last me over a year in those guns. Now the smith 15 gets the snot shot out if it and its with mild loads for FUN. I guess I allways considered the 38 as marginal compared to carrying a 40 or 45 and figured it needed the added benefit of a jacketed bullet and that another 100 fps never did much for a cast hunting bullet so I doubt it would for a cast self defense bullet either.
I lean on the powder measure for my snubbie carry loads. I practiced with other stuff, and used them sparingly. I generally only shoot standard pressure .38 stuff, a 158 at 850 from a 4" barrel. Even that is a good bit hotter than most factory stuff. I carried a snub for 20+ years, I wanted it to be as effective as possible.

I have plenty of .357's, 44's, 45's, .475's, even a short 50-70 Contender if I need more power. If I'm carrying a snubbie, it won't have 2.7 grains of Bullseye and a wadcutter in it though ;)

[dubber123]

I can see that train of thought. For the most part in a snubby I don't even bother with cast. Its a gold dot or xtp at plus p level. I don't plink a whole lot with my snubbys or my 2 lcp 380 rugers so I don't even bother with cast in them. A box of jacketed bullets will last me over a year in those guns. Now the smith 15 gets the snot shot out if it and its with mild loads for FUN. I guess I allways considered the 38 as marginal compared to carrying a 40 or 45 and figured it needed the added benefit of a jacketed bullet and that another 100 fps never did much for a cast hunting bullet so I doubt it would for a cast self defense bullet either.

Years ago (when I had a lot less guns), I did a ton of load work with a 4" model 10. That got shot a lot, 35,000 rounds in just over a year. I tried some VERY hotly loaded jacketed HP's and found unless shot into straight water, the HP's usually plugged and I got 0 expansion. Even a hot .38 is pretty slow, and most jacketed are made for magnum speeds. The only reliable expanding projectile I have found is a soft cast, (9bhn) HP boolit with the cavity pre-plugged with paraffin or stick boolit lube. These always expanded well when shot through denim, wood, whatever. These are what I carried loaded to 875 fps. in my snub.

I recently switched to a .40 Shield, and even with the stubby barrel, it gets 930 fps. with factory 180 gr. HST's, quite a bit more power than the snub, and easier for me to carry.

[mnewcomb59]

6.3 with 158 cast is safe according to Pearce, and I run that in my Model 10, security 6 and Rossi 92. I'm assuming about 1250 fps in the 16" but never chonoed it.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Thanks for all the help on this!

[metricmonkeywrench]

For a pet load we are currently shooting a nice recreational target load of 5.9g of PP under a Berry's 125g RNFP with a mild crimp. Fairly accurate, consistant and clean shooting. The wife loves the load out of her fixed sight S&W Mdl 64-8 and my Mdl 10-6.

I also have loads for the 158g Berry's and X-Tremes but that's out in my notes in the shop, none of the loads are pushed to the max standard loads or into +P as I'm not a fan of beating up the guns or brass.