38 Spl high velocity loads for S&W Mod 20 Heavy Duty

[Hi-Speed]

I have a 1964 Remington catalog showing 38 Special Hi-Speed loading using 158 gr lead at 1,090 fps from a 6 inch factory barrel. This was probably a 38-44 load to be used in S&W Heavy Duty and Outdoorsman revolvers. I would imagine that in a 6 inch revolver, rather than factory test barrel, the Remington load would be approx. 1,025 - 1,050 fps +/-

There is currently no commercial loading data to match this velocity. I'm thinking of using 10 grs 2400 and 158 gr lead with very firm crimp in 38 Spl cases to approximate the 38 Spl Hi-Speed loading from Remington's 1964 catalog. I've seen some data from the forum and Handloader magazine but the velocities obtained are much beyond the 1,050 fps (1,090 fps 6 inch factory barrel) requirement which I have. I don't want to beat up an old Haevy Duty with these near magnum pressures and velocities of 1,100 + fps.

Any suggested loads using 2400 and 158 gr lead is greatly appreciated. Perhaps Unique or 231 will also meet this requirement?

thank you!

[tazman]

The Hodgdon site shows CFE pistol using 5.3 grains with a cast boolit getting 1048 fps. With my tests using a 6inch barrel and 5.0 grains, I get 955 fps. The extra .3 grains would probably give me about 1000fps.
This is the best standard pressure load I can come up with.

[Tim357]

The last time I saw a chrono using 10 gr 2400/158 boolit was 888 fps from Ruger 3"SP101, and 912 fps from a 4" 686. I was underwhelmed. You can beat this easily with Power Pistol. I would think 11-11.5 2400 should be in the ballpark. 12.5/2400 with 357446 seated long gave 1158 from SP 101. Def 357 territory

[Mk42gunner]

One of the back issues of Handloader magazine had an article about recreating .38-44 loads within the last couple of years. I don't remember which one right now; but I know it was discussed here, a search might turn it up.

Robert

[Rustyleee]

One thing to keep in mind is that in 1964 there weren't a lot of chronographs around so if an ammo company wanted to be a little enthusiastic with their numbers there wouldn't be a lot of people around that could/would contradict what they published.

[StrawHat]

Another load to try in the 38/44 HD would be the load used by Skeeter Skelton, the Lyman 358156, some 2400 and 38 Special brass. A search should get you details or PM me.

A quick search found it,

http://www.darkcanyon.net/Handgun%20Loads.htm

Kevin

[salvadore]

Skeeters load gives me closer to 1350fps in a 6" m-28. Unless my chronograph has gone south.

[MT Gianni]

Congratulations. If I owned a Model 20 it would be a safe queen. I cannot imagine one a collector would not jump all over that would not net the cost of a couple of good 357's. If it is a family memento that is a different story, but there were so few of this model made they are sought after a lot. IIRC the only major purchase was for a Texas PD, Dallas? with only a few overruns sold to public.

[scattershot]

Thanks for posting that link. I was a real fan of Skeeters, starting in the 60s and right up until his death. Nice to see his writings again.

[Outpost75]

Also be aware that in those days the SAAMI pressure barrel for .38 Special was a solid test barrel. The 4" vented test barrel with 0.008" gap to simulate revolver conditions was not standardized until the early 1980s, but also be aware that some powder manufacturers still use the old style solid test barrel because they are less expensive and give higher velocity numbers and most people are not sophisticated to understand the difference.

[Walkingwolf]

I use 6.2 grains of Longshot under a 158gn Bayou Bullet SWC clean extraction, and the primers show no signs of high pressure. I get over 1000fps with this load out of a Ruger GP100 38 spl only revolver.

[376Steyr]

Skeeters load gives me closer to 1350fps in a 6" m-28. Unless my chronograph has gone south.

Skeeter's load gives me just over 1200 fps out of a 4" S&W, so you're in the ballpark.

[M-Tecs]

I've always enjoyed the load development of the old timers. Just increase the load until you blew something than back off a little.

The old manuals tend to have "hotter" loads.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/477194-loads-s-w-mod-20-heavy-duty-38-spl.html

[Char-Gar]

To the OP: When I read these kinds of posts, the question that comes to my mind is why? Why do you want to shoot loads of this pressure? What needs killing that you can't kill with standard 38 Special loads?

Be very very wary of anecdotal loads even if those load appeared in some gun magazine by some revered writer of years gone by. I am old to remember those days, when such loads were common fare.

The Smith and Wesson 38-44 Heavy Duty is a fine handgun. I would consider your 10/2400/158 cast bullet load to be both the minimum and maximum load I would want to shoot in that kind of pistol, if I wanted pressure higher than standard of +P 38 Special.

My 38-44 HD get the same loads as every other Colt or Smith and Wesson 38 Special in my collection. This would be 3/Bullseye/150-160 cast bullet for range use or the same bullet with 3.5/Bullseye for field or defense work.

[lotech]

Austin PD purchased a number of the S&W .38-44 HD revolvers.

[Hi-Speed]

Thanks for the inputs. I'll think I'll stick with an upper end 38 Spl +P load - reference Lyman Cast Handbook 3rd edition, which lists 5.2 grs 231 behind 158 gr LRN. Lyman lists this load at 954 fps from 4 inch vented test barrel. My chronograph experience at least with my revolver had been pretty close to Lyman's published velocities.

I found in my 1972 Law Enforcement Handgun Digest chronograph of Remington's 38 Spl Hi-Speed load 158 gr load which obtained approx 945 fps from 4 inch S&W Model 10. I think 5.2 grs 231 may be in the ball park, and will pretty much simulate the old high velocities rounds of yesteryear. I'm from this period so it is as much nostalgic as it is enjoyment!

[OldManMontgomery]

I've shot .38 Special loads using 158 lead (as I remember) bullets and 10.0 grains of 2400. The revolver was a S&W M15 with four inch barrel. I didn't have a chronograph in those days, but the time between 'bang' and the impact on a dirt bank nearly one hundred yards away wasn't much. Yeah, I know that's not all so scientific, but it was what I had. Between the observation and the recoil, it was a snappy load. The recoil wasn't so terrible, either.

In the last couple years, I've made up some of the same load and shot them through an old S&W Outdoorsman; N frame with six inch barrel. Shooting them across a chronograph was rather disappointing. Velocities were in the low 800s. However, I suspect the cylinder gap may be a bit much; that particular revolver doesn't shoot anything very fast. Sigh...

Back to the initial post.
Any suggested loads using 2400 and 158 gr lead is greatly appreciated. Perhaps Unique or 231 will also meet this requirement?I submit any load using a 'faster' powder - Unique or 231 for instance - giving anything close to the same velocity will result in higher peak pressures. Using a 'slower' powder will give - at best - the same peak pressure, but a longer pressure curve, resulting in higher velocities.

The down side is slower powders require higher pressures to burn consistently and properly. Not always dangerously high pressures, but surely the higher end of the allowed range. Someone mentioned the "old system" of increasing the load until the arm destructs, then back off a mite; frankly, I cannot afford that many revolvers. I could build a firing mechanism and 'box' to contain the shrapnel, but the other range guys would probably object at some point.

Truthfully, when 'working up' to a goal, probably one will bulge the chamber before causing a catastrophic failure. Still, bulging a cylinder requires replacing the part to fix.

My records show a top load of 10.4 grains of 2400 under a 158 lead bullet. I don't think this is shown in any reputable loading manual, beware! This sort of experimentation should probably be done in a .357 Magnum revolver or Contender. Measure the velocity, examine the fired brass and so on. From my experience 10.0 grains of 2400 has not ended in a catastrophic failure. It may well have contributed to frame stretching and may be on the limits of expanding the chambers. (I do not have instruments or skill [one or the other or both] to measure such damage.) Experimenters are cautioned.

I have had what I think are good results with Power Pistol. I've achieved velocities in the upper expected ranges with standard pressures - according to the load manuals. I have attained 158 grain lead bullets at close to 750 fps from a two inch K frame revolver. Using the slower powders, I also believe the pressure curve is less abrupt and internal strain is somewhat lessened.

I have several .357 Magnum revolvers; N and K frame S&Ws and a couple Ruger Blackhawks. So I do not seek to turn any of my .38 Special revolvers into magnums. My interest in 'hotrodding' the .38 Special is for specific self-defense loads (in certain revolvers) and some 'standard' loads without damaging the revolvers involved.

[StrawHat]

To the OP: ...What needs killing that you can't kill with standard 38 Special loads? ...

Char-Gar makes an excellent point.

In my youth, I loaded things a lot hotter than I do now. Today, I do not own a 357, but have several 38 Specials that I am comfortable using. Even better, I have a bunch of ACP revolvers and a couple of long Colt revolvers and enjoy them all. The Magnums were fun back then, but, they did not take game as well as the slower loads.

Enjoy your 38/44! With whatever loads you choose.

Kevin

[USSR]

Since you are looking for 1,000+ fps loads out of a 6" barrel, I would suggest what is commonly called the "FBI Load". Here are 3 .38 Special 158gr lead bullet loads that will get you there:

5.6gr Unique
6.4gr AA#5
7.0gr HS-6

Suggest you use either a magnum SPP or SRP with HS-6. Hope that helps.

Don

[Hi-Speed]

Thank you for all the great inputs.