CZ 527 to convert to 25cal 25/223 project

[unclemikeinct]

Morning Gents..First post..I ordered a CZ527 carbine in .223 to convert to a .257/223 project ...I'm wanting to have a gunsmith just rebore the barrel to 257 Dia. & leave the chamber as is..I want this carbine to shoot the Lyman 65 Gr gas checked cast bullet & up to say 90 Gr Jacketed stuff...The old 25-20 used a 1-14 twist..My old 257 Roberts shot this bullet pretty well using a one in ten twist rate..My plan is to split the Diff on the conversion..1 in 12...not sure of the number pattern lands grooves..Any thoughts you would like to add to this project that can help me avoid pitfalls in the design would be appreciated...Mike

[northmn]

I saw one mentioned once called a 25 Sharps. It ahd the wrong designation for a Sharps but it was a modern cartridge and was a 223 opened up to 25 caliber designed to use the lighter weight bullets. It was not a 117-120 grain proposition. Seen a lot of them opened up to 243 also and they tend to use the lightweight bullets. Check around on the Sharps design.

DP

[square butte]

I think 1 in 12 is considered about ideal for the 25-20 wcf. 1 in 14 in the old Winchesters seem to like the lighter bullets - Less so the 85-90 grainers. My info on that comes from the extensive thread on 25-20 reloaders thread over at the Marlin Owners website.

[roysha]

Do a search here on castboolits for 25/222 Copperhead. Although it is for the 222 rather than the 223, the majority of the information is applicable to the 25-223.

For what it's worth, unless you absolutely have to have the factory barrel, I really feel you would be better served just rebarreling using good quality barrel such as Green Mountain or something similar. "Just reboring and rerifling" isn't as simple or cheap as it sounds. Most gunsmiths I know do not have the machinery nor skills to do a really good job. I think the cost would be quite similar and then you could always go back to the factory 223 barrel if you were unhappy with the 25-223.

This little cartridge is one of those that performs way beyond what one would expect. Accurate, efficient, mild recoil and just plain fun to shoot.

[unclemikeinct]

Thank you all...It took some doing to find a guy to offer to Rebore that short 18.5 inch carbine barrel..I like the look w the iron sights from the factory..Only saving $200 compared to a new barrel..I'm taking a chance w that option..This conversion is called {I don't know Why} The 25-45 Sharps...I need to order up the reloading dies or cobble together something that will work..The reason for this caliber in this rifle..I'm retired Now..I have wanted a custom made pee wee sized rifle in 25 bore for thirty years..My first crude thumbnail sketch of this from 1979 project was a Ruger # 3 chambered in .256 Win Mag.That is a 357mag. necked down to 257 bore..I liked that hand me down bullet mold I had used in my 257 Roberts so much...I figured it deserved a dedicated rifle just for that bullet.The .223 case is cheap & plentiful.[possibly not the best choice due to short neck].But..If I have primers & some Unique powder I'll never be waiting to find some 22lr ammo just to plink with...I found some old notes about that lyman cast bullet..Using it in my 257 Roberts..As cast,pressing the GC on by hand & lubing with my fingers..The only prep to the case was careful flaring with a tapered drift punch..At 50yds it beat my 22LR..At 100yds that load of Unique 7 Grains was keeping them 1 to 1.25 inch groups..I fooled w using pistol primers & graphite lubing the case necks..That old Ruger 257 Roberts is sold I don't miss the trigger or the long throat in that barrel...Thanks Again, Mike

[Nrut]

I would make up some dummy rds. to make sure the bullets you want to use fit the DBM and FEED..
Shouldn't be any problem with your Lyman 65 gr. but might be a problem with the 90 gr. jacketed bullet..
Also I would send the dummy rds. in with the rifle and asked the the rifle be throated so the bullets are .005"- .010" into the lands min. when chambered..

Keep records an photo's of your build and please do a write up when you have your rifle up and running..
Sure many here would be interested in building the same or similar as you are doing..

Myself I am going to have my Remington M7 .223 rebarreled to a 6X45 twisted and throated to shoot a 105 A-Max this coming winter if I can swing it $$$ wise on my pension..

[unclemikeinct]

NRUT...Thank You, I'm going to send that rifle right out to Dan Pedersen in AZ..He is running 4 months out.He said he has the perfect throat reamer for that cast bullet & up to 90 grains jacketed won't be an issue..So there will be no before & after photo's...Just the After pic's w the bullets...Can you tell me more about your 6x45 to run the 105 AMAX...??? I run that bullet in a standard 243 Win. out to 800 yds..I have been told reaching farther will be "Interesting"..End of the month I get to try those 1000 yard steel targets at Ridgeway in PA...Also,you mentioned the 6mm with a modest case.a 6X45...In a 6mmbr I run the 88Gr Berger Flat Base..From a.1 in ten twist Hart Barrel..That setup is pretty good to 600 yards...that rifle/load will be staying at home...More later, mike

[square butte]

Mike - What twist rates does he have available for 25 cal ?

[unclemikeinct]

I only Questioned the barrel maker on the 3 rates of twist I knew could work...1 in ten, twelve & fourteen...For the 257 bore ...I see above I forgot to mention that long range 243 is a 1 in 9 twist..Mike

[square butte]

Thanks for the reply Mike - If I can figure out how to contact him I will give him a call

[unclemikeinct]

Dan is at Classic Barrel & gunworks Prescott AZ.928- 772- 4060.. He was referred to me by another respected Barrel rebore guy here, JES in Oregon...jes is the big bore specialist...mike

[Nrut]

NRUT...Thank You, I'm going to send that rifle right out to Dan Pedersen in AZ..He is running 4 months out.He said he has the perfect throat reamer for that cast bullet & up to 90 grains jacketed won't be an issue..So there will be no before & after photo's...Just the After pic's w the bullets...Can you tell me more about your 6x45 to run the 105 AMAX...??? I run that bullet in a standard 243 Win. out to 800 yds..I have been told reaching farther will be "Interesting"..End of the month I get to try those 1000 yard steel targets at Ridgeway in PA...Also,you mentioned the 6mm with a modest case.a 6X45...In a 6mmbr I run the 88Gr Berger Flat Base..From a.1 in ten twist Hart Barrel..That setup is pretty good to 600 yards...that rifle/load will be staying at home...More later, mike
I initially wanted a light wt. 6 BR repeater that would feed out of the box mag. (not detachable mag.)..
But after reading peoples trials and tribulations with Wyatts 6 BR box I decided against the 6 BR..
Decided to go with the 6X45 because I have plenty of brass, and the Hornady 105 Amax and BTHP match are relatively cheaper than other high BC bullets in Canada..
The rifle will be used during the off season mostly as a fun rifle with a bit more thump than the 1:8 twist .223 (Ruger Amer. compact) that I am currently using..
Might even try it as a coyote calling rifle using the 58gr. Vmax..

The only mods I should have to make on the rifle is to remove the mag. spacer and replace it with a thinner one to give me about 2.5"+ box length for a OAL 2.45" loaded round..
May have to shorten the bolt stop a bit also..

The barrel will dupe the M7 factory barrel both in length and dia. and have a 1:8 twist..
Probably a Benchmark as they are fairly available up here..
Also will have the firing pin bushed as I want to step on it..
I read where people are getting 2525fps with the Hornady using H335 in 18" barrels..
With a Wildcat stock from Alberta and a Leupy 2-7 or 6X36 it should weight in around 6.4 pounds or less like my factory M7 .260 does with a 2.5-8X36 does using the same Wildcat stock..
But it will be awhile before I start this project as I busted the crankcase on my 250cc Dual Sport that I use as a trail bike on old logging roads and game trails..
Looks like 2 grand + to replace the crankcase as per est. from the local repair shop..


You should able to easily pound steel at 1000 with your .243 and 105/107 gr bullets..
On 6mmBr.com they say the 6mmBr and Dasher are highly competive in the 1000yd game..
Good luck with your lil' CZ 25-45 Sharps..

Always wanted a 25/222 Copperhead since I first saw an article on one in Rifle or Handloader years ago..


TOUM
(the other uncle Mike as per my nephews and nieces) :grin:

[unclemikeinct]

Good luck to you on your projects Nrut, I saw the CZ527Rifle today,dark wood nice figure, good trigger, handles like a dream...It will be shipped to the Barrel rebore guy ASAP..I think I read the same article about the 25 Copperhead...It is that.257 65Gr cast Bullet that lights me up..I can't wait to start plinking w that under 6Lb rifle using ammo I really make myself...Thanks to All Here...uncle mike in Ct

[dk17hmr]

I have a 25-223 built on a savage action with a 23.5" lilja 1:10 twist. Zero interest in shooting cast bullets with it. I have killed antelope with it to just shy of 250 yards and drawn blood on pdogs over 950, with confirmed kills in the 750 yard range. 85s at 3100 & 110s at 2700. It's a great little round. 6x45 is better for bullet selection but my 25-223 seems to blow up pdogs better than any of my 6x45s or 6tcu ever did.

25-45 sharps was announced maybe a year or two after I had my rifle built. It's basically the same thing with a shorter throat to be used in ARs.

Do a Google search of "dk17hmr 25-223" and a bunch of my stuff will pop up.

[unclemikeinct]

Wow, those links R A real eye opener...I had no idea this cartridge could be that potent..versatile..I can't wait to start playing around with mine...Thank You, Mike

[35remington]

The short neck of the 223 case means most if not nearly all 25 caliber cast bullets will have some to considerable length of full caliber bearing surface protruding inside the case, which is often considered "not good." I'd rather have Wooter's 25 Copperhead (25/222).

[Harter66]

25-45 is for 25 cal in the 45 mm 223 case . For those interested.
It achieves it super balistics through high pressure loadings . As much as I want 1 I just can't bring myself to spend what Sharps wants for a bbl and dies...... maybe at tax time......

[unclemikeinct]

Morning Gents..First post..I ordered a CZ527 carbine in .223 to convert to a .257/223 project ...I'm wanting to have a gunsmith just rebore the barrel to 257 Dia. & leave the chamber as is..I want this carbine to shoot the Lyman 65 Gr gas checked cast bullet & up to say 90 Gr Jacketed stuff...The old 25-20 used a 1-14 twist..My old 257 Roberts shot this bullet pretty well using a one in ten twist rate..My plan is to split the Diff on the conversion..1 in 12...not sure of the number pattern lands grooves..Any thoughts you would like to add to this project that can help me avoid pitfalls in the design would be appreciated...Mike
I'm reviving this old thread..25/223 project came back from the "GUNSMITH" last week,I'm underwhelmed by the "work", it took a year & close to 500 bucks with all the shipping fees. After two messages left to his land line phone...I had to send him a letter requesting a refund...I'll detail all the headaches here if he fails to respond to my request...UnclemikeinCT

[dverna]

I'm reviving this old thread..25/223 project came back from the "GUNSMITH" last week,I'm underwhelmed by the "work", it took a year & close to 500 bucks with all the shipping fees. After two messages left to his land line phone...I had to send him a letter requesting a refund...I'll detail all the headaches here if he fails to respond to my request...UnclemikeinCT

Sorry to hear of your troubles. It is disappointing to see this kind of stuff happen. High costs and poor workmanship with little or no recourse but to give a poor report on the firm/man doing the work. But at least it gives others a heads up, so thank you for doing that.

I hope the rifle works out for you.

[Four Fingers of Death]

The 243/222 was reasonably popular in Australia years ago and was known as the 6mm Myra, after the gunshop in the outback town of Broken Hill that specialised in them. I have always fancied one or a 25 version.

I have a new Marlin X7 in 222Rem that I cleaned before firing, but the patches kept coming out dirty no matter how many times I cleaned it. I persisted for a month or so, but they still come out dirty. I don't know what is wrong with it, but I am reluctant to fire it. I don't think it has ever been fired, the bolt face is black, shiny and unmarked. I'm tempted to rebarrel to a 25/222, but the thought of spending $AU500 - $AU 600 for a new barrel (That's about as cheap as it gets in Australia and no one does reboring) on a rifle that cost me $AU400 doesn't really make sense. Maybe when my eyes are too sad to shoot my 1908 vintage 25/20 Winchester 1892, it might make more sense.

Good luck with your CZ.

[unclemikeinct]

Thanks Guys, I'm still in wait mode...I'd not like to flame the guy but this is taking a long time after sending a letter...mike n Ct

[PB234]

why bother when you can get a 6.5 Grendel CZ 527 right from the factory?

[unclemikeinct]

Why Bother ?? I wanted a 25 caliber to shoot one of my fav cast bullets/& plenty of cheap good brass..How long has this 6.5 Grendel been in the CZ line up?? [I started this project just over a year ago] I knew of the cartridge, mostly for AR style rifles..6.5 G. Seems decent enough for tactical use..Thanks for the input..Mike n Ct

[PB234]

The first 6.5 CZ 527s just came on shore a month or so ago and sold out quick. With that market response we may see lots more come quick. I am figuring out a 527 in 221 Fireball and passed on the 6.5 for now. For the spread in costs between hard to get reloading dies for a wildcat cartridge and the easy availability of 6.5 Grendel brass and dies having some 223 brass on hand is a minor savings. Also when you want to get rid of the rifle the resale on a factory 527 is going to be better than a wildcat. Also, my experience is that a lot of smiths just don't produce what one hoped for which is expensive and disappointing. There are lots of cast bullets to become new favorites. CZ 527 is a wonderful rifle.

The choices are getting so good it becomes harder and harder to justify a custom build except for the "I just want it factor" which is always a reasonable reason. Enjoy your new 527. Get one and you will want another.

[unclemikeinct]

Hey PB, got any thoughts on the CZ527 in 7.62 X 39 ?? I heard the bore diameter might be off our .308 spec..Anyone know if that one shoots cast bullets very well ?? As Is from the factory?? Mike n Ct

[PB234]

Also if you are looking for a CZ 527 .223 be aware that they used to come in 1 in 12 twist, but are now coming in 1 in 9 twist and the 1 in 12 twist are not finding a lot of love and still being sold new. My guess is the 1 in 12 can be had cheaper than the 1 in 9 and even more so on the used market. If you are going to re-cut the original barrel or throw it out and replace than go for the 1 in 12. I would look for a decent used 527 and try to get it for a considerable discount. Who is going to chase a 1 in 12 when a 1 in 9 is now standard except for some guys using light cast and they are few and far between?

[PB234]

Mike,

I have private messaged with a fellow who got large one hole groups from a CZ 527 Carbine in 7.62 x 39. He had posted pictures of the targets and I still retain his PMs where he generously gave specifics of his loads including mold, diameters of boolits, lubing, and loads. The 527 American is also now being offered in 7.62x39 and although I have not seen one my guess is htey too are outstanding. Yes the bore is larger than our 308 spec and 311 if memory serves me correctly. Doesn't make a lot of difference if you are shooting cast and sizing correctly.

The fellow who shared his load info for the 527 Carbine with me wrote that he never shot a jacketed through the rifle and I responded with groups like he was getting why would anyone.

If you are a fan of the 527 one might consider getting a detachable scope mount and using one scope over many 527s.

If you are considering a 527 in 30 Russian and want his loads PM me and I will try to find them for you. American or carbine I don't see how you could go wrong.

[PB234]

Hope this helps and I'll cut and paste more as I look:

" Re: C309-150-F & CZ 527

I think that you will find that Lee rifle moulds drop boolits .002"-.003" over the nominal diameter. I have (3) of that design of which (2) are double cavity and recent, and the other is a single cavity and 10+ years old. They all drop boolits in the .311"-.3125" range. The single cavity happens to drop right at .312", but the rifle groups better with the GC crimped on in the .313" die than in the .312" die. Rifles often shoot there best groups with boolits .001-.002" over groove diameter. My rifle has a .3125" throat, but the neck will allow larger boolits to be seated. I seat min out so that the narrow fron band is lightly engaging the rifling. This makes for an almost tapered fit, and the rifle has responded to it accordingly. I use a very small amount of lube(home brew) that fills the small groove ahed of the GC only. Other rifles may prefer more lube, or other lubes may notact the same way and require more grooves to be filled."

[PB234]

Some more,

"I cast with a mixture of wheel weights, range lead, and softer lead with a bit of tin added. The idea is to keep the antimony content down so the boolits are malleable rather than brittle. To gain hardness, the boolits are dropped from the mould into a bucket of water to quench. Fresh air-cooled boolits are ~11-12bhn. After less than 5 days, the quenched boolits are in the 16-18bhn range.

I size and GC in a .313" die for my CZ-527, but the boolits are closer to .312". I tried the .312" die and the groups opened up. My boolits have lube ahead of the GC only. If I add lube to the lower lube groove as well, the groups open. You'll have to experiment a bit and see what works in your rifle"

[PB234]

I looked some more and the fellow was using H332.

For sure I would go with a 527 Russian or Grendel before messing with a wildcat if only because of the difficulty of selling off a wildcat if my desires changed and also I would not have to fool with the complications of using a unique cartridge others have not worked out previously.

You will likely be very happy with the 527.

[unclemikeinct]

Thanks for all that PB, I'd heard the 7.62 x 39 bore in the CZ's rifles run .311..Nice to know stuff..This custom job is supposed to be a real .257 bore..pretty rough & long throated ..Not what I had ordered..I wanted it to shoot the lyman 257420 65 gr gas check bullet..So I'm struggling with those issues..Oh Yeah, Just so you guys know..the 25-223 Goofy is known as the 25 45 sharps..I wanted a set of Redding dies been on back order since forever..Ended up using the Lee set [only 33 bucks] I needed a seater die..So I'm playing with this not being happy...More later, mike n ct

[unclemikeinct]

It has been awhile since I sent a letter to Dan at Classic Barrel...I'm still waiting..& I'm still missing my front sight...Unreal..wait a year, lost my front sight blade..rough bore, long throat..I sent him samples of my ammo choice..That & he knew I wanted this rig for cast bullets...More later, Mike n Ct

[Four Fingers of Death]

Cast boolits don't seem to register with most gunsmiths it seems.

[unclemikeinct]

Cast boolits don't seem to register with most gunsmiths it seems.
I'll tell you this, on our second phone chat, explaining how long this would take..4 months my A$$..He claimed to have the perfect 257 reamer to throat with..On the invoice he calls that 45.00 dollar fee "RE-Neck" I sent letters to Jes re-boring he had sent me to Classic barrel over a year ago...& Chris at Pac-nor Warning them both..Oh. & if you see this Dan..I'm just warming up..I hope the guys at 6mmbr let me detail this story in an article..U friggin' Hack..Mike n CT

[unclemikeinct]

UPDATE: on the 25-223 Goofy project..I just received a phone call from Jesse O. at JES Re-Boring in Oregon...Totally Cool, First Class Gentleman..He apologized for referring me to Classic Barrel in Prescott Az...Can't fix this headache, but if I need a big Bore Job, I know you guys should not hesitate to use his service, JES..Still Waiting to hear from Dan, the "GUNSMITH" who did the poor work on my rifle about my refund..more I as know it, Mike n Ct

[unclemikeinct]

Do a search here on castboolits for 25/222 Copperhead. Although it is for the 222 rather than the 223, the majority of the information is applicable to the 25-223.

For what it's worth, unless you absolutely have to have the factory barrel, I really feel you would be better served just rebarreling using good quality barrel such as Green Mountain or something similar. "Just reboring and rerifling" isn't as simple or cheap as it sounds. Most gunsmiths I know do not have the machinery nor skills to do a really good job. I think the cost would be quite similar and then you could always go back to the factory 223 barrel if you were unhappy with the 25-223.

This little cartridge is one of those that performs way beyond what one would expect. Accurate, efficient, mild recoil and just plain fun to shoot.

I'm bringing this thread back from 4 years ago. To "A" wish I had gone w/ "Roysha" s Plan. After a dozen good try's, I found one bullet & powder combo this Disaster will shoot. The 87 gr Sierra soft point & H335. I got 3 in about an inch at 70yds. [seated out stoopid long] Called it good that day. I've gotten nothing but frustration with this retirement project. Good news is I convinced my gunsmith to remove the barrel. set it back at least 150thou & rechamber it with a new custom reamer. I have 3 other plans of attack on this "Project" The Smith has an old take off 25 cal barrel to rework w my reamer. plan C is get a new barrel & start from scratch. Plan D is to put a Bargain takeoff CZ527 carbine barrel back on this headache {I found a super deal on one cheaper than a set of CZ sights, thanks Dan for losing the front sight U Hack]. Now I'm waiting on the reamer. Thanks to all here, unclemikeinct

[wmitty]

So setting the barrel back and rechambering will allow using the Lyman cast boolit in a shorter throat? Hope this works out for you and the rifle shoots great. I have a shooting partner who is trying to shoot the 65 grain .25 cast boolit in a .25-20, but he’s buying them rather than casting his own. I have tried to explain the need to go larger than groove diameter, but he is having to learn for himself. Please keep us posted on your progress with this project; I have found it to be very interesting!

[Randy Bohannon]

I did one of Sharps Rifle Co.’s 25-45 Sharps In a dolled up AR, Black Hole Armory was doing 5R 1:8 barrels at the time and offered through Sharps Rifle Co. Most of my handloading has been using 6mm X 45 load data and hasn’t been hard to find good accurate loads with Sierra 90 gr. Just a 25 cal throwing twice the weight than .223 at near the same velocity, what’s not to like ?

[dverna]

What a nightmare. Bad enough to spend a lot of money, all that time, and not have a gun that you are happy with.

I surely hope this works out for you eventually.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Hope you get it sorted. Not holding my breath, but I’d like to see a 527 in 350 Legend. Seem like it’d make a nice boolit shooter.

[murf205]

Mike, I have seen Classic Reboring's add in Rifle Magazine and the add say's the business is for sale. He might not be doing the work his self. No matter, it's still a bad experience for you. I went through the 527 carbine problem because I wanted a 1-9" twist 223 but the boss around the barrel for the rear sight would have made to much work to duplicate and I didn't want to have a re barrel without the boss for the rear sight, so I wound up trading for a 1-9" long rifle. Hope you have success, you certainly deserve to for all the troubles you have gone through.

[unclemikeinct]

Thank You All For your suggestions & comments/ I'm waiting to hear from the reamer maker. I sent 100 bucks deposit & samples of my Cartridge. The 25 Goofy. This has been some journey. uncle Mike in Ct