30-06 sizing issues

[fast ronnie]

I'm having a problem re-sizing some 06 cases purchased from a member here. This in no way refers to the gentleman I traded with, but was told it was once-fired and probably from a machine gun. I believe that is irrelevant to the problem, but that is the history of the brass, and as this person was in the military and picked it up himself.

Now to the actual problem:

First step was de-prime, then ss tumbled with citric acid (1/2 teaspoon in about 5 quarts of water with 1 teaspoon Armorall premium wash and wax. So far, so good. 250 cases with 10 lbs pins and ran for 1 1/2 hrs. Rinsed and dried in the sun.

I used the old RCBS case lube in the green and white tube. (I have a bunch of this stuff, and want to use it up before switching)

To lube the inside of the necks, I used graphite mixed with shot and dipped the necks three or four times in an old pill bottle.

I then ran them through an RCBS full length sizer with the expander ball in place and the die adjusted correctly. (To the best of my ability)

My runout gage was being used for something else when I sized these, bt when I started checking them, the necks varied from one to seven thousanths out of concentricity.

I thought maybe something was wrong with the die, so switched to another die, also RCBS. It did the same thing. At that point, I borrowed a friend's bonanza die thinking I would try something a bit different. It didn't change anything, so called RCBS. They sent me a new expander ball, stem, and the threaded nut that holds the stem in the die. The old one in the first die was off center, but the new one wasn't. It still didn't change anything.

next step was to change lubes for the neck. We keep coconut oil in the house for other purposes, so tried that on the inside of the neck with a nylon brush. That made the expander ball go through a little easier, but with the same results of out of round. Not only are they out of concentricity, but are angled to the side. I have also tried rotating the case three or for times, sizing them as I go, but still, no change.

Next step was to anneal the neck and shoulder area. This didn't make any difference, either.

Next step was to remove the expander ball and decapping rod and sized without expanding back to size. This time, cases came out within 1/2 to one thou max, but were still under-sized.
at this point, I made a hardened steel pin with a pilot that would pick up the under-sized neck and hold the case concentric and piloted while bringing it back up to proper size. This helped, as the cases now were running from zero to two thou out on about two- thirds of the cases, but some were back out three or four thou.

This has been frustrating, to say the least. I am now in the middle of building an annealing machine, as this seemed to help some, even though it didn't completely cure the problem.

I have been considering a neck sizing die from Wilson, but can't do that for my wife's Garand anyway. A lee collet die would probably make them straight, but still would not be acceptable because of the Garand.

If anyone has any ideas, I would sure like to hear them. I have more than 750 of these things to try to fix, and am starting to get frustrated. By the way, I've been reloading for a long time and have never had this happen before.

[M-Tecs]

If this is a proven press this would not be the problem. A neighbor that I recently helped get into reload had the same issues. We ultimately tracked it down to a bad 1 1/4" to 7/8" adapter on his brand new RCBS RC. We did actually the same steps as you.

[fast ronnie]

I am using a rockchucker. I have two of them and both are more than 40 years old. I don't remember if I tried the other one with this problem, but won't be hard to do as they are mounted side by side.

[Shooter6br]

I bought 100 30-06 cases (Federal) once fired for my American Enfield at oncefiredbrass.com. Good guy to buy from. I am tired of brass that no one knows how many times fired or the age of the brass.Dont like to waste my time and money.............Shooting should be fun not a PIA ( just my 2 cents worth)

[HangFireW8]

You say you have 750 more, does that mean those are not resized yet? What is the runout on the un-resized cases? If it starts out as much or more as your results, that's the problem- garbage in, garbage out.

The best way to correct eccentric brass is to fire it with a good, stiff load in a concentric chamber, but I'll give you another option for dealing with eccentric brass. You'll need a sharpie. It will help you determine if the problem is your press or your die, and may give you a new option for straightening cases.

How to Index a Die

Lock your die ring in the press, draw a line on the front. Do the same with the decapping stem, lock it down and draw a line on it. This is your die and stem "index line".

Take 4 of your worst runout cases, preferrably ones that have not been sized yet. Use a Sharpie to mark the high sides with a line, the runout in thousandths, and mark them Front, Left, Back, and Right. Run each through the sizing die with the high side at a different orientation (front, left, back, right). Measure runout on each and compare to the original runout. Did the runout position change? Was runout reduced or enlarged?

If all cases have slightly reduced runout with unchanged orientation, your press and dies are operating about as well as you can hope. However if some have worse and some have better, you have a problem to sort out... and a new tool.

Repeat by sizing another 4 new high-runout cases, indexing the high side by 1/16 turns around the die side that corrects the most. Measure runout on each, narrowing down where the exact position is on the die that corrects runout the most. Draw a line at that spot on the die. You could stop here if you like, and just use that line to correspond with the high side of the case to correct each for runout. This has the drawback of having to measure runout before sizing each case.

How to Determine the Source of Eccentric Sizing

If you wish it find and correct the source of the problem, rotate the die to make the index line 180 degrees from where it was (preferrably screw down, but if the shell holder prevents this, then screw back). Try again with 4 new cases as at the start. If runout correction reverses, the problem is in the die and/or decapping stem. If the problem stays the same (resizing introducing more runout), the problem is in the press/ram/shellholder.

Repeat the process while indexing the decapping stem (this is possible but not so easy with the Lee die, easy with most other brands), to determine if the stem/sizer ball is the issue.

If necessary, repeat the process while indexing the shell holder.

Fixing the problem

If the problem is the die stem and sizer ball, it might be crooked, or not. If not, please realize that you're run into a limitation of standard sizing dies. Factory dies, even Neck Sizing dies, over-resize the case neck and then the expander ball pulls the case neck eccentric, even when lubricated. To avoid this, you can use a die that sizes the neck less, such as a bushing die (Redding or clones) or a custom lapped neck die (available from Forster or other vendors on request).

Shell holders are easy to replace, if replacement fixes nothing it may be the top of the ram or the press head is crooked.

If it is the die, you may wish to keep it from eccentric brass correction, and buy another in the hopes of getting a straighter one.

Caveat

Using fresh fired brass (not yet resized since firing) is best for this process, because sizing the same case over and over again causes it to work-harden, increasing the spring-back and reducing the runout correction or enlargement.

[Mk42gunner]

Personally, I fail to see the attraction of fifty plus year old brass. Especially if it was fired from a machine gun.

Other than that non-helpful statement, have you measured the neck thickness of the brass? Seems to me that if it is thicker on one side when pulled over the expander ball, that side would be out of round.

Robert

[Char-Gar]

Personally, I fail to see the attraction of fifty plus year old brass. Especially if it was fired from a machine gun.

Other than that non-helpful statement, have you measured the neck thickness of the brass? Seems to me that if it is thicker on one side when pulled over the expander ball, that side would be out of round.

Robert

Bingo! We have a winner!

Every piece of 30-06 brass, or most every other caliber as well, won't have uniform neck thickness to some degree. Now throw in military brass that has been MG fired and you have guaranteed uneven neck thickness.

Even with brand new unfired high quality brass, match shooters turn the case necks for uniform thickness. Highly unlikely you have a die or press problem. Those pull through expanders are the kiss of death anyway for accurate loading, they stretch necks, make the case mouths uneven and all sorts of nasty things to the case neck. I have not used them in many years. I size the cases with no pull through expander, and then expand with a plug type expander and seat bullets in a straight line seater (Vickerman). Depending of case neck thickness variation, I also turn the necks.

[lotech]

I'm not an advocate of loading old military brass, but I can understand wanting to use your brass if possible. With regard to neck-turning, I would take three batches of ten each. Remove only a little brass, covering about half the neck area with the first batch. Remove enough to barely cover the entire neck area with the second group. With the third, remove just a very little more than the second group. Use a known accurate load for your rifle and fire some groups. With at least one of the batches, runout should improve considerably.

[HangFireW8]

First, it might not be quite 50 years old. The US made a large amount of '06 for the Republic of Vietnam until they were overrun in 1975, then they were stuck with a huge surplus. I bought some of that surplus a few years back, but mine is new pulls.

It might be uneven neck thickness, but I really haven't had the problem with Lake City (I'm guessing it's LC). A little uneven, yes, surface irregularities, definitely... but I suppose it's possible. My few thousand are an infinitesimal sample set of what was produced. What I have seen is uneven annealing, it's pretty obvious when you can see the annealing color be darker and go further down one side than another.

I have had several dies that needed indexing to compensate for their eccentricity. Maybe I am a statistical anomaly.

I have experimented extensively with comparative neck thicknesses. What matters most is not the neck thickness (within extremes), but rather consistency of bullet pull (neck tension). Many others have reached the same conclusion. In tight necked rifles necks of a certain thickness provide a bushing-like centering mechanism, but factory chambers are all too large to care. For a factory chamber, what matters most is concentricity and consistent bullet pull only.

Frankly making 4 sets of neck-turned cases is a waste of time. If eccentricity is the problem, the first cut deep enough to make it concentric will fix that set of problems (after a fire-forming, anyway). Better to invest in a cheap tube micrometer than waste time on progressive neck turning sets of cases.

I have processed military brass to the point it equaled the finest commercial brass in accuracy... it was just more work to get there, and more culling of rejects. Again, for a factory chamber, once you master concentricity and bullet pull, there's no reason not to enjoy cheap plentiful military brass, as long as you accept the extra effort.

[lotech]

Agreed, four sets of neck-turned brass would likely be a waste of time. Three sets (as stated) might not be, particularly if you didn't have a tubing micrometer handy.

[country gent]

If this is machine gun brass also look for bent rims and burrs on the brass's rims as these firearms are a viloent extraction. set a case on a flat surface and look for light and an angle to the body at rest. This may or may not have an effect but if it dosent enter straight it wont be when sized. Having sectioned several cases with neck wall runout it tends to frow to the case head .002 at the neck can become .004-.005 above the head. Machine guns are known for larger chambers / headspace and this additional sizing can be part of the issue. From your description the removal of the stem from the die proves out the die body press as good. Youmight try a small oring under the decapping expander rods lock nut, this should hold it in tension but allow it to "float" a little. Adjust it up just below the shoulder so its working when the case is still fully supported but not where its causing a bind between neck brass and expander, pinching brass. You may not decap with this setting though.

[HangFireW8]

If this is machine gun brass also look for bent rims and burrs on the brass's rims as these firearms are a viloent extraction.

Good point. I had to toss a bunch of 5.56mm brass with this problem, obviously fired in a dirty chamber.

[EDG]

I believe in trying old brass as long as I think it is safe to use. I have a large quantity of USGI SL-54 .30-06 brass that was fired in machine guns. Many of the cases have bent rims. In spite of all the issues this has been very good brass for $.01 each. It has been used as .30-06, 7.65 Mauser, 8X57 Mauser and for many die set up and tests.

On the whole I would rather use first quality commercial brass but this brass has been very good.

After reading your epic journey I would ask have you ever tried shooting any of this brass? I use my machine gun fired brass in a iron sighted Mausers mostly and it works fine.

Two things that you have not tried that would probably help if you are obsessed with runout.

1. Have a Forster FL die lapped out to .002 smaller than your loaded round neck diameter. Forster will do this for about $10. There is no way such a die (If the neck is kept on center to the body) can produce an eccentric neck. This lapped out die will NOT use or need an expander.

2. You can try using a Forster or Redding FL bushing die with a bushing that produces a neck with .002 interference on the bullet. This set up may still permit some eccentricity. Some of that is because the bushings do not have a long lead in chamfer or radius. I think the lapped out FL die is a better idea.

Finally with the huge neck of any military barrel you get a lot of expansion. The first time you squeeze this down the neck may get off center just from all of the sizing.
Have you checked the eccentricity of the machine gun fire brass as is without sizing it? The sizing process and expanding process might be doing all the damage.

If you get this brass to work and then shoot it in the normally generous military chamber you will need to keep an eye on the run out every time you load it.

Here is how to lap a FL die if you have a die to risk.

https://rickaverill.com/projects-past-and-present/lapping-reloading-dies/

[Char-Gar]

If any of you guys have a lot of once fired Lake City or Frankford Aresnal 30-06 brass that was made prior to about 1965, I will be a buyer. I want it unpolished with the anneal marks still on the necks and shoulders. I hold this stuff in higher regard than you folks do. It can go back to the 20 and 30s if you have it.

[Mk42gunner]

I didn't mean to imply that I wouldn't use brass such as this, especially if I found a deal such as EDG's at a penny a piece; but I don't think I would go looking for it to make match quality brass from either. For plinking, blasting, or normal hunting ammo it should be fine.

Robert

[atr]

OK,,,50 year old brass....well here is my tale:
about a month ago I was at the range with my buddy and there in the dirt / mud was a mess of spent 30-06 cases that hadn't been there the week before. I picked several up and noted the date 1943 manufactured. My buddy agreed with me that the primers were original so we figured someone had a lot of old ammo that they shot up. I took that old brass home cleaned it, sized it, checked its length, took the crimp out of the primer pocket and cleaned up the flash hole. I felt good about getting this old brass back on line. It shoots fine...I don't think there is anything wrong with reclaiming old brass, especially that old GI brass which was some of the best made.
atr

[WRideout]

I am still working on a pile of 30-06 mil brass that is headstamped as TW 53. Never had a problem with it; I probably have a lifetime supply. Came from my stepfather before he passed on.

Wayne

[leadman]

I use a bunch of old LC and it is good brass.
For lubing the inside of the necks of my brass I use the RCBS case lube on a Q-Tip and use the same for the outside of the case. To remove the lube I use hot water and a little dish soap then dry them in the sun.
I would check the thickness of the necks and also the concentrically of the body to base. I have had brass fired in a self loading gun that was bent.

[Char-Gar]

I must note that the more money we spend on reloading gizmos, the more we discover problem we didn't know existed. Many, if not most of these gizmos are purchased because somebody told us we needed them. We were happy banging away at targets, producing good targets, before somebody told us our ammo was bad. We were told we could shave 1/4" off our groups with the newest gizmo. So we bought the gizmo and maybe or maybe not the average of 25 targets shrunk 1/4".

[nicholst55]

I must note that the more money we spend on reloading gizmos, the more we discover problem we didn't know existed. Many, if not most of these gizmos are purchased because somebody told us we needed them. We were happy banging away at targets, producing good targets, before somebody told us our ammo was bad. We were told we could shave 1/4" off our groups with the newest gizmo. So we bought the gizmo and maybe or maybe not the average of 25 targets shrunk 1/4".

Very, very true!

[M-Tecs]

Reloading is like most things in life. You get out of it what you put in. Successful reloading is pulling the trigger and it goes bang without blowing anything up. Reloads can run the full spectrum from marginally safe and functional to as precise as humanly possible. For my big game hunting 3" MOA is adequate. For my varmint hunting 3/4" is adequate and for F Class 1/2" MOA is marginal.

The more we strive to achieve more than just adequate the more useful "reloading gizmos" become. Most of my competition rifles will do 3/8" MOA out to 300 yards on demand for 10 shot groups on calm days.

For big game hunting 5 rounds per year is a good year. Between varmint and long range competition 6,000 to 8,000 rounds per year is normal.

I keep hearing about all these "reloading gizmos" that I apparently don't need. I would truly love to know which "reloading gizmos" I don't need?

[HangFireW8]

Case neck shavers are pretty much useless unless you are case forming, have a custom tight neck chamber, or another particular problem that needs to be solved.

A runout gage solved my occasional flyer problem, halved my group sizes, plus (since it is an RCBS Case Master) also detects incipient case head separation. If you shoot bottleneck rifle and care about accuracy, you should have a runout gage.

Anyone can prove their utility by grouping cases by eccentricity, shooting some indexed in the chamber and some not, and comparing group sizes.

[Frank46]

Our old range used to host The Crawfish Inventational and BR shooters would come from all over the country. My buddy and me being members of that range would go and speak to the shooters after they had fired their targets and but stuff and pick their brains. Too a man or woman I found them very helpful in answering what might have been stupid questions. Try benchrest.com and see if they can shed some light on your problems. But here is a suggestion that you may or may not have tried. First size without the expanding rod in place. Measure runout,then size the same cases (only need to be a few) with the expander in place. If the runout with the expander in place is greater than sizing w/o the expander you have found your problem. Here is another one Buy some M die expanders in 30 cal. Mike and number each one. Run a case into the F/L die and then lube the inside of the case neck with imperial die wax. using an M die body install the smallest M die expander and run your case into the m die. Do a few cases as before. When done measure case runout after all cases have been run through the f/l die prior to be run through the M die. Than run the cases through the M die and measure all cases after their trip through the m die. Notice we are only changing one variable here at a time in order to try and find what is causing your run out problem. Make sure the expander is good and tight in the m die body first before running cases through it. Now for the creme on the cake. If you have a lathe take the ram out of your press and measure it for concentricity and straightness. By the way most BR shooters I have watched use basically hand tools to win the BR matches. Most powder charges are thrown via powder measure only occasional ones are weighed. In doing the ram you may or may find that it isn't straight or out of round. And had that slot for the primer thingy. If that is the case you'll have to get one made custom w/o the slot for the primer thingy. There are so many variables to play with that it would make your head spin. Some BR shooters rarely size their cases because of the tight chambers so brass springback for them isn't a problem. I have seen some use a RCBS partner press for use with dies, some prefer to use the wilson dies and use the two piece die where you insert a loaded case in one end and the bullet in the other and insert a mandrel to seat the bullet using a small arbor press. One thing you have to remember is that these guys go by the motto of doings things in the proper order.Frank

[fast ronnie]

Thanks for all the feedback on this problem. Yes, I have commercial brass that I also use. This is not the only brass I have. I have tried the dies without the expander ball and the runout is 1/2 to one thou. With the expander, it goes nuts. To get rid of the expander ball, I made an expander die that is piloted to the inside of the neck as it came out of full length sizing without the ball. After annealing about 20, then re-running them, I am getting about 2/3's of them close enough to live with. As I said in my original post, I am building a case annealer.

I have straight line and neck sizing only dies from Wilson and some I have made for other calibers, but not for the -06. IT may come down to that at some point, but I am not looking for benchrest accuracy, but do like to see what can be accomplished with what I have.
These are not valuable cases, but I would like to find what the cause is. I have formed a fair amount of 06 brass for others such as 7 and 8 mauser. I also shoot a couple of wildcats that I form the cases for. These are the only ones I have had this difficulty with.

I am going to check out the press to see if everything is concentric as that has not been checked on either one of my presses but i have not yet figured out how I'm going to set up the indicators from top of press to ram. The ram does not appear to be bent, but something COULD be off center. Not likely, but worth checking anyway just for peace of mind. I may build a die blank with bearings or a bushing to use an indicator holder that will rotate.

When I really want accuracy, I don't use this type of die anyway. It just gets under my skin that this has been such a problem.
I still have a few hours left in building my annealer. When I get it finished, I will try this again and post the results but it may not get done this week as I need to get some parts out for a customer. Airplanes don't land very well with pieces missing!

Thanks for everyone's input on this. As a tool and die maker, this one has been a challenge.

Ron

[paul edward]

OK,,,50 year old brass....well here is my tale: about a month ago I was at the range with my buddy and there in the dirt / mud was a mess of spent 30-06 cases that hadn't been there the week before. I picked several up and noted the date 1943 manufactured.

Is it possible that the corrosive primers used in 1943 vintage 30/06 military ammo may be responsible for damaging the brass?

[HangFireW8]

No. Perhaps you are thinking of Mercurial primers, which are detrimental to brass. They had been phased out for decades before WWII.

[fast ronnie]

After some frustration, and some procrastination, as well, I think I have found a solution to the problem I was having, and a way to correct it.

A re-cap of what I had done.

Cases were once-fired .30-06 brass traded for on the forum. I have lubed with RCBS case lube that I have used for years. This, however was not the problem. I was lubing the inside of the neck with graphite mixed with shot in a medicine bottle, which I have also done for a long time.

Necks were pulled out of shape, and off to one side by as much as .008 of center and twisted to one side. Some of the fixes I tried were (in no particular order) another set of RCBS dies which I have two sets), another set from a neighbor, another brand of dies, also from a neighbor. Another attempt was to use a Lee collet die, which left me with the problem of no body sizing, but still didn't correct the run-out problem. Next thought was to anneal the brass, so built a case annealer. That didn't work either, but was later instrumental in the long run. Many replies were received, and I have tried most of them.

I called RCBS, and they sent me a new de-capping rod and the adapter that holds it it the die. My old one was off center, but this still didn't fix the problem. I adjusted the die in about 10 different ways, but still no success.

Lots of different possible fixes, but no cigar.

Here's what finally got the job done:

I made a sizing die and pin to expand the inside of the neck out to .315. The body did nothing except hold the pin. I made the pin with two steps, one to center on ther neck as they were, then a second step to go to .315.

I then used my de-capping die with an 8 mm expander ball to expand the neck out further. Lots of RCBS lube was used in both theses steps.

I used one of my size dies and honed it out to size to .306 or .307 on the inside. This worked on many of the cases, but not all, and being military brass, some of the cases were a little too large to hold the bullet. I then took the cases that were still off center (the ones still off-center were much better, but still not quite where I wanted them).

I then set the now oversized die back in the press in the normal manner, then put the expander / de-capping rod back in the die. I ran the case all the way into the die, then backed it out a little, maybe 1/4 of the length of the neck. I then adjusted the expander-ball to just touch the inside of the neck. Theoretically, the expander should not have been having any effect, but what I found was that it actually did, though to only a small amount. Next step was to run the case in, then back it out through the expander, turn it a quarter turn or so, then repeated that as much as three or four times. I then took the case out, put it in my run-out gage to check it. Most of the cases that still weren't true would then show little runout.
A few still didn't quite go to wher I had determined I wanted them to be, so they went back in the die for another attempt, turning them several times as I ran the case in and out of the die.

All this was done using plenty of lube, (RCBS) trying not to get so much as to put dents in the shoulder. (Even so, I managed to dent a few.)

The cases were now running from zero run-out up to .002 thou. (That was an arbitrary number that I chose because they were military cases.)

The interesting part was that cases that were right at .002 did not respond to this treatment as well as the ones that were farther out of whack. Some of the ones that had been the worst were now closest to being true. Many of them had zero run-out, some less than a thou.

There have been a couple that just couldn't get closer than .002.

Because some of them are too large by a thou or so, I run them through a Lee collet die and tighten them up to the correct neck tension.

So far, I have done about a hundred or so and seems to be working well. I know that doing it this way is hard on the brass. but so is throwing them away. I don't have a lot of money invested in them, but still want to save them. This is where the annealing machine is put to good use. The brass had been annealed as part of my attempt to correct this problem early on. It will then be annealed again when I get the cases all re-formed. I have about 6 or 7 hundred yet to go, and it is a lot of work, but have learned from it.

#1 use enough lube inside the neck not to pull the cases out of round.

#2 military cases were not the only ones this happened to. I found some of my commercial was also this way, and am correcting it the same way.

#3 what we think is good ain't necessarily so. Check it with a run-out gage.

#4 we often pooh-pooh military brass, but it does work. This is not match grade, but will shoot well.

After looking at what some of these cases were on the run-out gage, then looking at some of my loaded stuff, I now realize were some of my fliers were coming from. Most groups were decent, but I wanted something better for the rifle I built in my shop. I'm not a gunsmith, and it is my first and only build. I took a lot of pains building this piece and want to see what it will do with "reasonably" good ammunition. Not benchrest, just the best I can do. I feel confident that I can now get it to 1/2 moa by working with the load. Time will tell that tale, though.

[Fernando]

When locking down the expander plug after adjusting the die body I lower the ram with the pin loose til I have some tension on it and then lock it???
Just surfing and thought maybe?

[w5pv]

I had similar problems and it turned out to be dirty chamber especially the neck area after cleaning more often the problems went away.

[jsn]

I'm not criticizing your process fast ronnie, but I would have probably just full length resized with the original FL sizing die and then run them through the Lee collet neck sizer. Maybe even used the FL sizing die without the expander, although that may not work with the Lee collet.

My measurements with the Hornady headspace comparator showed that Garand fired 30-06 grows some .015-.020" over actual headspace. I would imagine that M1A and machine gun fired would be likewise. Squeezing them down is difficult, even when annealed.

Has anyone ever tried one of the Redding form and trim combo dies? It looks like they size several thousands over what your FL sizing die would, then you use the FL sizer.

[EDG]

fast ronnie

Since you are a tool maker I know you have a highly trained eye. Rather than use a run out gauge try loading a few rounds and rolling them on a smooth flat table top or even a surface plate. Just watch the tip of the bullet as they roll and you will be able to see any run out in the loaded rounds - including any run out caused by the seating die.

[fast ronnie]

Yes. they were Very visible when rolling them. did try resizing them in the original die, also. No cigar. The method I described in post 27 was the only thing that worked, and I still have a small few that are not coming out right. Maybe 1 in 20 or 30 cases will not come closer than .005 t.i.r. Overall, I am satisfied with the results, but will not know the final verdict until I go to the range with them.

As far as the seating die, I'm planning on using a Wilson straight line. I've had good success with them before.

[smokeywolf]

The interesting part was that cases that were right at .002 did not respond to this treatment as well as the ones that were farther out of whack. Some of the ones that had been the worst were now closest to being true. Many of them had zero run-out, some less than a thou.

There have been a couple that just couldn't get closer than .002.

Often times, a more drastic correction in reforming/reshaping will result in less "spring back."

[jaysouth]

If any of you guys have a lot of once fired Lake City or Frankford Aresnal 30-06 brass that was made prior to about 1965, I will be a buyer. I want it unpolished with the anneal marks still on the necks and shoulders. I hold this stuff in higher regard than you folks do. It can go back to the 20 and 30s if you have it.

The most accurate ammo I ever got my hands on was a load of FA 36 Match. corrosive of course, but super accurate and good brass than loaded at least ten times each with good accuracy. I also have a pile of SL 52 brass that is quite servicable.

[DDriller]

I resize with no expander ball and the use a Lyman M die to expand as needed.

[lightman]

I just leave the lock nut on the decapping rod a little loose. I've switched a few of my dies over to a carbide expander ball but they are expensive! I also polish the steel expander balls with 1200 grit emory cloth follow by steel wool. And I lube the inside of the case neck. All of this helped but the most noticeable difference was leaving the locknut loose.

[Blammer]

try a different shell holder.

[GregLaROCHE]

A year ago I bought 25 30-06 surplus cases. The hardest time I had was getting the primers out with a universal dépriming die, I then resized them and used a NOE expander to size the necks, since I was loading cast boolits. Checked OAL length and adjusted accordingly. Seated the boolits and they loaded and shot fine in my Winchester model 70. I have a Garand, but never thought to try them in it. I would suggest firering them first th the planned and go from there.

[R. Dupraz]

Excellent thread and link to Rick Averill's Lapping Reloading Dies. Thanks for posting that link EDG. I am a cast bullet bench rest shooter and have used Averill's method almost exactly to lap out Wilson SL seating dies when loading oversized 30 cal. cast bullets, with success. The only difference being is that I made a small hole lap from a section of aluminum shotgun cleaning rod. Worked perfectly. Have copied the article for my reference file.


Along with the Wilson SL seating dies, I also use FL sizer bushing dies exclusively when I can find them for the cal. that I load for. The down side is when none is made for the cal. that I am working with at the time. Then the lapping of a regular sizing die would come into play such as the 6mm X 223 which I am working with now. I have not attempted lapping out a common sizer die but am now going to give it a try because I am experiencing all the problems stated in this thread with that 6mm.

As a note of interest with regard to out of concentric cases. Many years ago I remember reading an article written by an Army officer, who talked about that. One statement that he made was that some cases are just naturally crooked and no amount resizing will ever straighten them out. I have found this to be true, especially with fired military brass.

[nicholst55]

Along with the Wilson SL seating dies, I also use FL sizer bushing dies exclusively when I can find them for the cal. that I load for. The down side is when none is made for the cal. that I am working with at the time. Then the lapping of a regular sizing die would come into play such as the 6mm X 223 which I am working with now. I have not attempted lapping out a common sizer die but am now going to give it a try because I am experiencing all the problems stated in this thread with that 6mm.

There are people who can modify a standard sizing die to utilize bushings. That might be something to consider. I don't have links to any of them handy, but a search of the Accurate Shooters forum should provide some info. Also, if Forster offers their BR dies in the chambering you're dealing with, they will hone the neck diameter to your specification for a very nominal fee. Also something to cnsider.