Never paper patched before....

[Bad Karma]

OK, here's the question I have and be patient. I have two really nice custom Sako rifles. One is a 9.3x62 Mauser and the other is a .404 Jeffreys (trying to sell the Jeffreys to get swaging equipment). A .366" boolit mould is very difficult to find and expensive if I do find one. I want a 250-300gr boolit in .358" and paper patch it to shoot in the 9.3mm. I want a 400gr boolit for the .404 but no idea what a good diameter would be. It's a groove diameter of .423". I was thinking of a .411" and patching it. Also I have a .500 BPE double I want to shoot. I have about 100 rounds of original ammo for it but don't wanna waste it, it's Kynoch so it'll probably be duds anyway. I want to use a 50-70 die and a .500 NE shell holder to neck size the brass I am about to buy.
Also I have a Howdah pistol that's a 20 bore with a mint bore(s) is it possible to paper patch for this too? I have 150 rounds of 20 bore Peters brass for it...really old too.

[leftiye]

Standard info on paper patching for use with smokeless powder is a boolit about bore diameter plus .001" to plus .003" (.001" is preferrable). Two wraps of paper (match paper thickness to get overall size desired) taking overall diameter to groove diameter plus .001 to plus .002" (or more). Lube it if you want to after it has dried (do your own research on this and form your own preference, and then test it). Then It can be sized to groove diameter plus .001", not necessary, but may or may not help.

[Buckshot]

..............Remember that when the patch dries, if you have wetted the paper well, and streatched it during patching it WILL shrink to less then it's additive dry thickness. For example, using 9# Onionskin (airmail paper) of .002" thickness 2 wraps (4 thicknesses) will net about .007" or a tenth or so less, vs the .008" dry reading.

The tighter the paper is rolled onto the boolit, the better patching job you'll have accomplished. One other thing is the paper's grain. If you cut the patch across the grain, it will streatch more, and easier. Easiest way to test for the grain is to cut a 1" wide strip across the sheet, and the same long-ways of the sheet. Make them both the same length. Then grasp the end of each between your thumb and finger, holding the 2 strips out away from you. The one that droops more will be the one that is cut across the grain.

...............Buckshot

[Nelsdou44]

I shoot a 9.3mm by wrapping a 220 grain .358" boolit 2 wraps of Buffalo Arms paper, lubed lightly with a coating of LLA. Excellent results.

Nels

[Bad Karma]

Ok, being new to paper patching, what is a good paper to use and what lubes are there that are recomended? I remember a article written way back in a Guns and Ammo mag that detailed how to paper patch a jacketed boolit. I think it was an experiment. My Dad said he used cigarette paper but he's not with us anymore so I can't get the details.

[docone31]

I started several threads, where folks mentioned computer paper, tracing paper, and some really go into detail.
I plan on starting out with the Meade Tracing Paper.

[Buckshot]

Ok, being new to paper patching, what is a good paper to use and what lubes are there that are recomended? I remember a article written way back in a Guns and Ammo mag that detailed how to paper patch a jacketed boolit. I think it was an experiment. My Dad said he used cigarette paper but he's not with us anymore so I can't get the details.

"Ok, being new to paper patching, what is a good paper to use...............".

The paper you want is the paper that is going to end up giving you the finished OD you want. The only other requirement is that the paper be of high enough quality to withstand being wetted, stretched and rolled onto a boolit. Papers commonly used for patching run from about .001/.0015" to .0045".

The thinnest being cigarette or dress pattern paper and the heaviest being about 24 lb paper. Anything heavier gets to be a chore to work with. I'd use 3 wraps of a lighter paper rather then have to deal with a heavy one. Many good papers are available in art or drafting-architectural sections.

"............what lubes are there that are recomended?"

You don't want a lube that will quickly penetrate the paper. For smokless there are 3 I use. One is a 'forever' type which is a sprayed on moly used for lubing heavily loaded ways and gibs on machinery. They can be sprayed and stored till the second coming. It's not in the least sticky or likely to attract abrasive. The 2nd is simply Lee LA. Spread a small amount on a sheet of waxed paper, coated freezer paper or aluminum foil.

Spread it out like you were painting the surface. Take each slug, lay it on it's side and roll it back and forth a couple times and set aside. Lastly and for shorter term storage is simply a beeswax-Vaseline mix, and made up fairly soft. This is applied by hand to each one before seating. Or you can apply it after seating if there is a goodly portion of the patch exposed.

Back in the heyday of military BPC use with patched boolits, most used straight beeswax. The British 577-450 had a 480gr patched slug. Before loading this was dipped in melted beeswax and at some later point it was run up through a heated sizer. This brought each slug to a consistant OD and sqeegee'd off any excess wax before being seated.

A different method used by some was to rack the loaded cartridges boolit down. The entire rack was lowered into a container of melted beeswax up to the caseneck, and held there until the boolit was also hot. It was then lifted out and the cartridges allowed to drip and harden. If you were to dip a room temp boolit in melted beeswax you'd get a coating much too thick.

With either BP or smokless the lube on the patch is just for patch lube and is not really any use for keeping BP fouling soft. For that there were usually grease cookies. You just want to be sure and use something compatable with BP, if that's your propellant. For smokless it's pretty simple. For BP there's no sense in reinventing the wheel. Look at what was used back then and use that.

http://www.fototime.com/C9730B459E8C514/standard.jpg

The above are paper patched boolits for smokless loads in a 444 Marlin chambered Martini. They've been sprayed with a moly lube and then final sized. A regular GG boolit was used. The slug lying on it's side on the extreme left is ready to seat. The light hit's it just right to make the sized patched drive bands shine.

..............Buckshot

[Bad Karma]

Buckshot,

Thanks for the info. I think what I'll do is keep reading up on this and I have a few old books by Col. Wheelen, I think it's covered there. Is paper patching different for bottlenecked boolits? I have some original .450-400 BP ammo and it's paper patched.

[7400 problems]

Why do you want to use bullets that require pieces of paper? Is it like the people who fire cannons?

[Bad Karma]

Why do you want to use bullets that require pieces of paper? Is it like the people who fire cannons?

Well, until I found Mountain Moulds I was having trouble finding a economical way to shoot my .404 Jeffreys. Woodleigh boolits are really expensive. There isn't a dire need to shoot a premium blue nose through a piece of paper. I now know I can custom order any boolit any weight and style I wish as long as I show em the money. Still, I want to know how to paper patch, knowledge is power.

[Buckshot]

Why do you want to use bullets that require pieces of paper? Is it like the people who fire cannons?

...........The paper is simply the original lead boolit jacket. Most major military's used PP'd boolits. Also, what are people who shoot cannons like :-)?

..............Buckshot

[yeahbub]

BK, welcome to the wonderful world of paper-patching and compulsively trying every combination of details and technique to obsessively wring the last micro-inch of accuracy out of some NEW GRAND IDEA. . . . :-D

I'll second everything Buckshot said above, but wanted to add a couple of details that may round out the possibilities. I use 100% rag drafting vellum exclusively for my patching tasks these days because it's tougher than any other paper I ever tried, has given generous stretch when strips are cut from the end of the E-size sheet (not the long side, it's already stretched to the max in that direction during manufacture). It usually runs .0025, +/- a .0001 or so. Regarding getting the correct diameter, I try to get it close, but am willing to run them though a sizer to get the diameters right where they need to be for a particular rifle. For lubrication, I've gone to stretching on one layer of .75 wide teflon tape over the dry patch before sizing, which, with a touch of lube, then irons the teflon into the paper which makes them tough as well as slippery. Others have used spray-on teflon, which sounds like a great idea, but I'm told to do this outside over grass, lest the floor be rendered a serious, difficult to remove, hazard due to overspray. I haven't found a source for the aerosol stuff yet, but it sounds like less work than tape. They'll still need a bit of boolit lube, though, and a coat of LLA works very well, though I've used any soft, smearable lube to good effect. I prefer to use a card wad/lube cookie where possible, but the .30-30 is the only bottle-necked case (long neck) I felt comfortable doing that in.

I'd also like to try that aerosol moly "forever" lube. Buckshot, what's the name/source of it?

[windrider919]

I tried several home made lubes and LLA along with graphite and moly sprays that dry non sticky. The graphite/teflon bike chain lube sold at stores like Wal-Mart was tried. The best lube recomendation I got was from the air rifle shooters who use "Sailkote" on their pellets in the third coast area. But this stuff is $12.00 for a 4 oz spray can even though a little goes a very long way. Then while on the phone with the guys at Buffalo Arms discussing PP shooting they recommended 'Rooster Lube' which dries to a waterproof wax coating. I found it works well for smokeless PP shooting. Rooster says to pretreat and dry patches before wrapping the bullet but I found it best to wrap the wet patch on the bullet then dry.

[Buckshot]

I'd also like to try that aerosol moly "forever" lube. Buckshot, what's the name/source of it?

................There is no ONE maker. I've had several different manufacturers over the years. If you go to a specialty place like a machine tool seller they'll probably charge you triple what you can get it for elsewhere. I'm sure you can get it at a NAPA auto parts place. In fact I think I've gotten it there before. But even the 'Marts' may carry it. It's a pretty common metal lubricant. All it is is atomized moly in a volatile carrier.

..................Buckshot

[dromia]

Do you find lubing the boolit/patch helps accuracy.

I never use a lube except in the few circumstances when I need to waterproof the round.

[leftiye]

Do you suppose that's the same stuff as Lyman's spray moly lube?

[Buckshot]

Do you suppose that's the same stuff as Lyman's spray moly lube?

..............I'd bet it is the same.

..............Buckshot

[leftiye]

Cool, the Lyman stuff is about $16-17 at Midway and if you don' get anything else, add $10 for shipping. Ouch!

Do you think the Lyman moly powder for impact (tumble) coating could be added to a lube?

[Buckshot]

Cool, the Lyman stuff is about $16-17 at Midway and if you don' get anything else, add $10 for shipping. Ouch!

Do you think the Lyman moly powder for impact (tumble) coating could be added to a lube?

...............Don't know. I mean I doubt it would hurt. I've never seen that powder. The problem is it's remaining mixed while the lube cools, and doesn't want to settle.

............Buckshot

[yeahbub]

The Lyman moly stuff in the aerosol can has a binder in it and it acts like a coat of paint. It's definitely a "persistent" element and is unsuitable for spraying into equipment that just needs a shot of lube. It'll really tie up anything that relies on tight tolerances like locks, auto pistols, etc. I used it on some Wolf 7.62x39 that I couldn't get a decent group out of (didn't work), but found it does produce a tough film with a slippery surface. I'm not sure how it would affect the patch coming off the boolit. Lyman has a different product in a small "cold creme" jar that is a thick grease heavily loaded with moly that might better embed in the outside of the paper. . . . . I can't remember what it's called.

[Buckshot]

................The Lyman spray would have no negative effect on the lands engraving the paper, and hense being blown to tatters as it exits the muzzle. The beauty of the stuff (or similar) is that once the carrier evaporates it leaves the dry lube behind. Being dry it has zero tendancy to have crud stick to it.

The only negative I can see to it is the fact that no one can see the dazzeling white paper patch, and oooh and aaah over it. Generally the stuff is a dull gray so the patch and exposed lead just haze together :-)

.................Buckshot

[windrider919]

Remember when Moly coated barrels were the rage then shooters everywhere were trying to clean it off because it lost us accuracy? I have stayed away from the moly bullet lubes because of that. I mainly use waxes or the teflon and graphite types that form a dry film. Has anyone here ever really, scientifically tested the molly lubes?