CVA Hawkens Caplock Bolster Question

[Eddie2002]

I just picked up a CVA .50 caliber Hawken caplock at a local show and have a question about the nipple bolster. When I got home and pulled the rifle apart I found that the bolster where the nipple screws in is loose. It can rotate from about 10 o'clock to about 2 o'clock. I didn't notice this when I bought the rifle at the show cause the lock plate was jambed hard against the bolster which prevented it from turning. There is no play in the bolster, it just rotates.
CVA doesn't service their barrels anymore so I'm stuck with either getting it fixed or parting the rifle out. The rifle has never been fired and has pristine rifling. Any safe ideas on repairs?
The only choices I can think of would be either hard silver solder or braze the bolster in place or do some serious machine work and make a replacement bolster that screws into the barrel. I don't have a lot of money in the rifle, just want to fix it right if possible. I would also be interested in a replacement barrel if anyone has a used one advailable which is the best option.
Please no flaming, just an idea if repairing the bolster is possible and how to do it.
Thanks
Eddie

[bubba.50]

it has most likely been removed at some point by someone unfamiliar with the fact you should never do that with a CVA. if everything looks to be okay other than the loose bolster, and if it lines up okay with the nipple, i would back it out a couple turns & then use either some two-part epoxy or the strongest version of lok-tite on the threads & screw it in to the proper position & allow to fully cure.

[Eddie2002]

Well epoxy is a lot easier than what I thought my other options were. I wasn't sure how the bolster was mounted into the barrel and didn't know if it was even removable. The CVA website said removing the bolster voids the warrenty which is a mute point consitering how old the rifle appears to be and how loose the bolster is. I'll try backing the bolster out and epoxy it in. I'm only in the rifle for 75 bucks but want to fix it right for a shooter.
Thanks

[Maven]

Eddie, I think I'd check with Deer Creek Products, Dixie Gun Works, and/or Track of the Wolf to see whether you can obtain a slightly larger or replacement drum. This will probably mean a bit of drilling and tapping, but it is safer than epoxying the poorly fitting original (?) in place. Btw, I "get" the epoxy thing, but drilling & tapping is the better way.

[Buckshot Bill]

Maybe make a steel shim to go between the drum and the barrel so it indexes correctly when you thread it in and tighten it down?

[KCSO]

Once more CVA's have a drum that is screwed into the breech plug that is IN the barrel and THEN they are drilled for the powder chamber. It takes a real craftsman to refit a drum and get everything to line up, OR you need a special long drill to do the job right. Every once in a while I get one of these in boogered and have to re do the drum. I HAVE the right drill and I replace the drum with a blank and then drill the powder chamber and then drill and tap for the nipple with a special jig. NOT cheap, but I don't want glue holding my gun together when an overload or a rough bore drives up the pressure.

Do it right and you won't have to worry about sending a secondary projectile across the firing line. Seen it and don't like it!

[Eddie2002]

The epoxy makes me nervous also, mainly because it can loose its strength with heat and time. I don't want to force the bolster out and make it worse by buggering up the threads or drum. Making a replacement drum, taping the barrel for it and indexing it for the nipple is something I think I can do in my shop (lots of work) but I'm leaning towards hard silver solder or brazing the drum in place. The rifle barrel is soft steel and won't loose any temper from the heat and little brazing will make it plenty strong enough if done right. All I'm trying to do is lock the threads to keep the bolster from moving and keep it as close to factory as possible.
Any reason why a small braze repair won't work? It's the direction I'm thinking of heading at this moment.

[daleraby]

Any reason why a small braze repair won't work? It's the direction I'm thinking of heading at this moment.

A number of reasons, but brass is softer than steel, also more brittle so it will likely be, at best, a temporary repair anyway.

I'm pretty sure you could rig up an atomic bomb to be detonated by an alarm clock from the Dollar Store... but that doesn't mean you SHOULD.

KCSO referenced a secondary projectile. Now maybe you didn't understand that reference; the secondary projectile is the bolster with the nipple that flies out of the breech plug in the direction of the individual on the shooting line to your immediate right. If this projectile does not kill him, it may well make him very angry... and he might be holding a loaded rifle while you are holding a recently fired and inoperative rifle. Doesn't sound like a fun day at the range, does it?

I would suggest that you take that disaster waiting to happen to a competent 'smith and have it repaired properly. Considering how little you paid for it, even an expensive repair that gives you a functional rifle is money well spent. Though, if you want to cut your losses... you could just throw it into a lake.

[bubba.50]

when i mentioned epoxy I more correctly meant J-B Weld. I sometimes use the terms interchangeably so maybe i gave the wrong idea but J-B is what i meant to say.

the only problem I've seen mentioned is the drum turns a bit past the point where the hammer & nipple line up. this can only be because a previous owner has unwittingly removed it for whatever reason. no other actual damage whatsoever is mentioned. that bein' the case, yer not gonna make it any worse by removin' the drum again to inspect it. so....

IF upon removal the drum is sound,
IF the threads are good on the drum,
IF the threads in the barrel are good &
IF it can be lined up so that the hammer/nipple geometry is correct I see absolutely no problem in applyin' a dose of J-B to the threads & screwin' it in 'til things are in their proper perspective, let it cure a few days then never worry about it again. and as stated, if the drum is sound & the threads on it & the barrel are good you aren't gonna create a "secondary projectile" even if ya shot it as-is.

I would worry more about the amount of pressure you say the lock was puttin' on the drum that you couldn't move the bolster when the barrel was in the stock. if its that much the upward pressure on the drum combined with all the things that go on durin' recoil could cause it to shear off. then you'd have a "secondary projectile" for sure.

but, if yer that concerned with it, make a tomater stake out of the barrel & buy one off Deer Creek or flea-bay.

luck to ya & have a good'en, bubba.

[Eddie2002]

Bubba, thanks for the help, I use JB Weld all the time and have never had any problems with it. The bolster looks in good shape, not all chewed up from pliers or vice grips so I'm not planning in pulling it. Instead I'll make it permanent with a tack of braze on the underside of the bolster. I'm not planning on brazing the entire joint, just the area that's hidden by the stock so the repair isn't noticable. Done right it will be plenty strong. Been brazing and welding with torches for years and I'm comfortable with doing the job.
From what I can tell about the rifle it was a kit and the builder assembled it but didn't check any clearences. The set trigger was jambed in the stock and didn't work and I'm betting the assembler tried to twist the bolster to line up with the hammer and loosened it up just enough so it wouldn't stay in one place. I've already taken care of the bolster getting pressed on by the lock plate, just a little file work made a big difference and removed a little wood under the triggers for clearence.

[Eddie2002]

Here are a couple pictures of the rifle and the braze job. Took a little work with a file and some paper to clean up the excess braze. I think it will work just fine.169339169338

[Sharpsman]

Hang it on the mantel over their fireplace and chalk up as experience!!

[Eddie2002]

Hang it on the mantel over their fireplace and chalk up as experience!!
Why??
Brazing bolsters in place has been done for years.
Looks like the pictures didn't upload.

[Eddie2002]

169352169353Take two for the pictures

[Edward]

I have used J B Weld and Brazed engine blocks on my 9N tractors and have never had a failure of any kind ,and would have NO PROBLEM shooting that repaired barrel . Seems some people comment without knowing :bigsmyl2:

[drago9900]

I think there is only one correct answer for this rifle, get a new barrel. It's not worth your life for a quick fix.

[waksupi]

Send it to KCSO for proper repair, or replace the barrel. Much better than having the drum leaving the gun and going through someone's head standing next to you.

[Col4570]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?84717-questions-of-jukar/page3
Hi Eddie,It may be that this link could help.It would involve some machining.Although for a Flintlock Breachplug a similar approach could be taken for a Percussion Rifle.Regards.

[Eddie2002]

Thanks for all the advice, the bolster is brazed in place, the orignial threads going into the barrel are intact which is where the strength is and the braze is holding the bolster in posistion so it doesn't rotate, why would the bolster blow out, please explain your reasoning? It's being held in with the original machining that came from the factory. I'm ready to shoot it. This is not my first build or repair.
Col4570, great link but way over anything I can do in my machine shop, kinda overkill for the problem I'm dealing with anyway.
Thanks again all

[bubba.50]

I'm no genius or an expert at anything but, i do try to learn & understand when i can. so, followin' the logic of some of the commentors here,

if ya screw part A(the drum) out of part B(the barrel) and usin' average intelligence & basic knowledge of how these things work,
if ya determine part A is sound & the threads good and
if ya determine part B is sound & the threads good, then
if ya screw part A back into part B to the proper depth/position & use a bit of J-B weld or low-heat solder to hold the nipple/hammer geometry in the proper perspective, then if you take it to the range to shoot it yer gonna behead the shooter next to ya?

is that right? that seems to me to be the general opinion here.

well to me, usin' that logic, then every gun in rfd's gun rack is just waitin' for his next trip to the range to kill someone 'cause he removes part A(breechplug) from part B(barrel) on every one of his guns. haven't heard of him killin' anybody yet with what are obviously pipe-bombs just waitin' to blow at any time. maybe y'all should warn him before it's too late. boy, I'm sure glad he's in Jersey & I don't hafta wworry about bein' on the firin' line beside him. :groner:

[Col4570]

bubba,is absolutely right,if the Drum is loose and turning in too far and the threads on both components are in good order,Iwould say that it is safe to either Shim the Drum and Locktite or Epoxy Resin it in at the Angle required.Since the Parts are now Tacked with Braze and a certain amount of heat has been used it might be wise to double charge prove the Barrel.I would also check if the Lock has some support for the Drum.I am just offering an opinion that in no way criticises those who ere on the side of caution.

[jjarrell]

All guns can blow, new or old. Everyone talks about when such and suchs gun let go because he did this or that. We have become a "the sky is falling" chicken little society. If there were as many guns blowing up in peoples faces as there are people talking about it, none of us would shoot them. Also, Im not saying nobody has seen a gun blow but I AM saying that not as many have "seen" it as say they have. I have seen a worn out set of threads allow a nipple to get spit out of a breech plug. That's NOT me seeing a gun blow. That's me seeing a gentleman get a new nipple from his shooting box and finishing the match, and scoring quite well I may add. Get a grip, quit being dramatic, use common sense, don't load it like a damn Howitzer and enjoy your rifles. OK, Y'all can jump on me now............

[jcwit]

Would I trust a gun held together with plastic AKA JB Weld, or a drum brazed on?


NOPE!



How bout when you're long gone and one of your grand kids try out Gramps old powder burner with a hot load or some innocent person bought it at the auction and does the same.

But hey, you're in jersey, way far from me and I'm old so will never know.

[bubba.50]

first off, it's not "held together" with the bit of braze. it's held in place. i personally wouldn't have used braze but long as it wasn't heated hot enough to change the temper/strength of the metal see no problem with his fix. and usin' loctite or J-B weld here would be absolutely no different than usin' it on any other screw on the gun. it's not there to "hold anything together", it's there just to keep parts from movin' once installed. same as if you used it on a sight screw or hammer screw or any other screw.

and as far as some imaginary "future generation" shootin' hot loads in it, hot loads have been known to wreck factory new guns so that argument don't hold much water either.

[charlie b]

So, being an engineer and all, I find this interesting. Why does anyone think the parts will come off the barrel when it is screwed in using all of the threads originally fitted?

Please be precise in your answer. The 'sky is falling' response is not an answer.

Metal strength, size and depth of threads, tensile strength of threads and how any of that changes with what was done to the rifle should be described. The only changes I can note are lack of preload on the threads and effect of brazing heat on the strength of the metal. If the barrel was not heat treated during original manufacture then this is a non issue as long as the part was allowed to cool slowly (not water quenched). I'd probably still do a proof load just to check everything.

[Col4570]

One Criteria is that the Threads should be the length of the diameter idealy.

[charlie b]

Well, in this case the design criteria for depth and length of threads is met.

[Omnivore]

Brazing will change any heat treat, for sure. I wouldn't worry about it though, so long as the threads fit reasonably tight and are in good condition.

The drum (A.K.A. "powder drum" - I've never called it a "bolster" and I've not seen it called a "bolster" in the gun-making book I have) in any case should be supported by the lock bolster (that thicker part of the lockplate at the top; "bolster" = “to strengthen”).

That's how a proper, drum type percussion lock works, and so you may also be faced with brazing or otherwise modifying the lockplate. A powder drum unsupported by the lock bolster is subject to loosening from repeated hammer blows, and I would suspect a lack of that support as being the original problem. Fitting the lock-to-stock-to-barrel-to powder drum is a tricky process and so in a cheap gun it's not likely to have been done just right.