How many go to church? A few pointed questions for you.

[6bg6ga]

Just wondering how many of you go to church. How many actually practice what you profess to believe in? How many are hypocrites? How many keep the commandments everyday? Is church actually necessary? Be careful here....

[Pine Baron]

In all honesty, not as often as I'd like, but then again, I haven't found a local church to my liking. So, I'll keep looking.
I do the best I can, but I don't really "preach", unless the opportunity presents itself or is forced on me.
Hypocrite? I sure hope not, again I'm only human.
Keeping the commandments is a goal that proves our weaknesses, almost unattainable.
Not necessary for me, but I appreciate anything that brings us closer to God and one another.
Not being careful, just honest.

[Boaz]

What about you ? Do you go to church ? Do you obey the commandments every day? Is church necessary for you ? Are you a hypocrite ? You might need to be careful ?
...........................Your only attempting to create argument .

[gunner300]

If your looking for perfection look to Jesus not man cause we can't be perfect.
My Mother always said "you can worship God in your heart anytime anywhere, he'll hear you"
Me a Member of a Church I don't attend on a regular basis, try to practice (by example)as best I can being imperfect as I am, Hypocrite ? depends on the eye of the beholder I guess. keep the commandments ? I'm a sinner like all man, Church necessary? you must believe in Jesus (and his church) if you want the benefits.
Good luck in your searching.

[mrvmax]

Honestly there are few people that actually live as the Bible tells us to. Most people that attend church go as more of a showing than actually wanting to be there, it is something they do and then they get on with their life. They seem to think that they get some "credit" from God for attending church. It does not help than most churches are more concerned with bringing in money and getting larger than they are teaching scripture. Church is necessary since we are instructed to not forsake the assembling together, Acts gives us the picture of what the church is for. I attend church regularly and have for the last 15 years since I became a believer. I finally got to the point where I do not worry about what others around me are ding, I have enough problems worrying about myself. Ephesians 5:1 instructs us to imitate God, although I will never be perfect on this side of eternity I try am instructed to try and that is my focus each day. Yes, we can worship anywhere but we are instructed to gather together. Someone not attending church regularly is disobeying scripture and I would not look to them to be an example. Someone not praying daily and studying scripture is no body to look up to either. Living the life of a true believer is not an easy thing, it is a daily struggle. There is a reason scripture states that the way to heaven is a narrow way and few will find it. There is also a reason that the Lord will say to many to depart from Him, that He never knew them. Our churches in America today perpetuate more false teaching than can be imagined. There is no greater deterrent to Christianity than those professing to be Christians. Do not even look to others for an example, look to what Christ was and is, He was the perfect example and there will never be another perfect one. You can also look to Paul to see the example of one opposed to Christ than changes and becomes a new person, one who made it his life's work to preach Christ.
If you honestly have questions and are not trolling, PM me and I will give you my phone number. I would be glad to answer anything I can.

[6bg6ga]

Why is it that anytime someone asks a question thay are branded as tryng to start an arguement?Pine Baron, thank you for your honesty here. I'm not trying to start any arguements at all. I'm just trying to understand where people stand here. As for me..... Didn't start this thread to shine a light on myself or to hide under a basket so to speak. Honesty here...no, I haven't been to church since I was 16 with the exception of a few funerals my fathers included. I have seen so much with my work taking me to different faiths and observing their behavior and attitudes. Note...not all were bad. Somehow I believe that some churches have seemed to have lost the purpose of religion and being able to comfort and help people in their church. I have seem both faithful people and hypocrites and I try not to judge but find myself not having a warm feeling when I see people turned away simply because they didn't have an appointment. What I believe.... I believe that if two or more are gathered in his name he also is there. I believe it is necessary to try your best to observe the ten commandments to the best of your ability and when you falter you ask forgiveness. I never have followed the bible word for word and cannot quote it like some here. I believe the bible is a story book meant to try to teach us something. I don't believe that we have to believe everything word for word as the meanings and or content has been changed as a result of being copied and such. So, those without sin can cast the first stone here.

[6bg6ga]

No, not trolling here and to be honest I really resent the word. As far back as several years you never heard the word troll or trolling in this forum and I believe any reference is a total lack of respect for someone responding to a thread or possibly not agreeing with your views. So, can we not try to point fingers at people in this particular thread and call them trolls? With respect to phone calls and PM's. Really don't have the time and I would rather you simply post what is on your mind here in this thread. In short...please respect me and I will respect all of you and any view you may have or offer.

[cobra246]

I havent stepped foot in a church in years. Mainly because most of them dont teach the whole word of God. Im content to jus study my Bible, pray at home, and fellowship with a few believers once in a blue moon.
Ill pass on the social club they call a church.

Sent from my LG-H900 using Tapatalk

[6bg6ga]

I have to ask....what do you consider the word of God that they aren't teaching?

[MostlyLeverGuns]

If the western prairies and mountains are church, I am in church everyday. Grass, trees, the wind, rain, snow, my wife, my dog and horse, the wild things my fellow members. If you require a building or some book to believe so be it.

[jcwit]

I attend Mass every Saturday Vigil, or one of the 2 Masses on Sunday morning. Many times I attend Mass on Wednesday morning also. I also go to the small Adoration Chapel that is attached to the church. It's open 24 hours a day most days and is a good place to spend time close to God.

I try my best to adhear to my beliefes, I try my best to adhear to the 10 commandments.

Am I a hypocrite, I'm guessing many of the non Catholic would think so, but such is the way it is, one must consider the source!

Is church necessary? Absolutely, it brings people of faith, it is good to pray alone and even worship alone, it is also good to share your faith and worship with with others in church. How else would you accept the body & blood of Christ!



There was I careful enough or did I fall into your trap?

[Jeffrey]

I was raised Catholic. Long story short, no longer am. Now I am a practicing Norse Pagan or Asatru. Our "Ten Commandments" are The Nine Noble Virtues. Our "church" can be where ever our folk gather: usually nature settings, but can easily be at a house. http://www.odinsvolk.ca/O.V.A.%20-%20NNV.htm

[johnson1942]

man is this revealing, you guys wear it like a shinning badge. going to keep reading this one and write an article on the results.

[1989toddm]

We go to church although we are currently praying and contemplating a move away from the church we have been in. We have attended a small house church last Sunday and will again today, pretty informal and very real. Keeping the commandments? "Love the Lord your God with all your heart souls mind and spirit. This is the greatest commandment and the next is like unto it: Love your neighbor as yourself. On these hang all the law and the prophets." -Jesus Christ
I have been and and still find myself a hypocrite at times, but do my best to live and practice what I believe in. I can't do it on my own power but with His power in me-I can do all things. Now I am still human and that gets in the way. Praise God for His grace that covers all my sins when I confess and repent!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jcwit]

I will also say that my wife goes to the Lutheran church.

They now condone abortion & homosexuality, I was attending church with her, I do not any longer, to do so in my mind would mean I also accept it.

They also have what I call a Rock & Roll band in the front of the church, I guess if one wishes to jump around and shout & yell go ahead, for myself church is reverent & and should be kept as such.

Just my 2 cents, like it or not!

[mrvmax]

Wasn't trying to make accusations but I have seen people post questions like this to stir the pot (not here though). Only offered to talk since it is much easier and much quicker than trying to type things out and if I typed everything I wanted to nobody would want to read the story anyway.

. What I believe.... I believe that if two or more are gathered in his name he also is there.
FYI that is a common scripture taken out of context, that passage was referring to church discipline, not the gathering of people together for church. Our churches have lost their purpose since they no longer follow scripture and try to make church what they want it to be instead of what scripture states it should be. Logically if you cannot accept the Bible as being true instead of just stories then there is no reason to believe any of it and it is no better than believing a fairy tale. If there are errors that are not typos, transcription errors etc. then how can we believe any of it? I understand where you are coming from, I would suggest finding a Bible study and getting into the Word yourself, you will get a million different opinions here and almost all will be wrong. Go to the source itself for the answers.

[AK Caster]

Just wondering how many of you go to church. How many actually practice what you profess to believe in? How many are hypocrites? How many keep the commandments everyday? Is church actually necessary? Be careful here....

I quit going years ago. In my experience church goers are their own worse enemies. Most, not all, people who belong to a certain church think their church is the only one in existence. And if you don't belong you are out casted. Church attendees are the most "cliquish" people alive today.

[6bg6ga]

Quote: There was I careful enough or did I fall into your trap? Sir, I have no trap. For the record I was raised as a catholic and continued to go until the age of 16. I also worked 40 hours a week and went to school. One sunday morning I attended 5:00 mass and the priest was running behind and I had to leave so I could be at work on time as I had been told on a prior occasion not to be late or I wouldn't have a job( store manager didn't like me) anyway the priest turned around pointing his finger at me and told me I hadn't fulfilled my sunday obligation. I never went back. I will agree with you in that it is necessary to receive communion at least once a year but I am also thinking it might not be necessary to go to mass every sunday and that praying might be just as good. Do I miss it? Yes, I would have to say that I do.

[jcwit]

Quote: There was I careful enough or did I fall into your trap? Sir, I have no trap. For the record I was raised as a catholic and continued to go until the age of 16. I also worked 40 hours a week and went to school. One sunday morning I attended 5:00 mass and the priest was running behind and I had to leave so I could be at work on time as I had been told on a prior occasion not to be late or I wouldn't have a job( store manager didn't like me) anyway the priest turned around pointing his finger at me and told me I hadn't fulfilled my sunday obligation. I never went back. I will agree with you in that it is necessary to receive communion at least once a year but I am also thinking it might not be necessary to go to mass every sunday and that praying might be just as good. Do I miss it? Yes, I would have to say that I do.

My reference to a trap was mainly tongue in cheek, sorry for your bad experience with the Priest. He should have been more understanding, I know mine would have.

[DCP]

Lots of bad information here on the internet
Missouri Synod and Wisconsin Synod Lutheran Church do not believe in abortion & homosexuality

They will not marry 2 of the same sex. Those can never be married in GODS eyes!

[johnson1942]

its funny that many here let people seperate them selves and its really God and his son we worship, not the people around us. may be if your the one who sets an example in the church you could affect one of the believers to do better. i had to change churches once as it got so out of hand with the pastor and a girlfriend on the side that i had to go somewheres else. that stuff happens, leave. also i agree, if the methodist church allows gays we will split away, no choise. my pastor will split also. can allow that in a church. Go to a church of your choise and worship with the Joy that as a christian we are given. to have ones name wrote in the lambs book of life is a awesome thing and worth being happy about.

[jcwit]

Wife goes to the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America.

Didn't post it as such as I was in a hurry and did not have time to look up the spelling of Evangelical.

And yes they accept both.

[smoked turkey]

the post above asked the question and provided a good answer: Is church necessary? Absolutely, it brings people of faith, it is good to pray alone and even worship alone, it is also good to share your faith and worship with with others in church. How else would you accept the body & blood of Christ!

Scripture always provides the best answers to our questions and in this case it is very clear on the role the Church (notice it is the big "C" here and not a particular sect) is to have in this world. But to start off before I highlight scriptures to us I must start off and say that attending a church will not make a person a christian any more than standing in a garage will make you a car. However I believe that a christian will WANT to assemble with other believers and I believe that scripture supports this belief. A check of Hebrews 10:25 will reveal that we are extorted..."to assemble together and so much more as you see the Day approaching". Evidently some early Christians had stopped attending or had become lax in attending their local church for what ever reason. The assembly here is the Greek word for synagogue which specifically means the local, physical gathering of believers not the church which would be the spiritual, invisible body of believers. This local assembly is where the gospel message is preached, and also where the Word of God is applied to the circumstances of our lives. The Day approaching simply refers to the fact that Christ's return is imminent and we are to encourage each other even more to remain faithful to Him.
Volumes have been written about the body of Christ and the fact that every one is needed to be a part of the local, physical, body of believers in order to provide the help, comfort, and support that all warriors need in the day of battle. I encourage each one to do their own study to see where they fit into the body of Christ. The idea that a person can make it through to victory without the help of the local assembly of believers makes me want to ask why would you want to? When it is all said and done this is not about me or you. It is about being a follower of Christ and being His witnesses and making disciples everywhere.
I should say that normally I would be worshiping in my local assembly at this time but I am home today recovering from prostate surgery last Wednesday. I received a good report by the way in that the cancer was contained within the prostate and had not gotten to the nearby lymph nodes or surrounding tissue. Praise God for his healing hand.

[Victor N TN]

I try to be the best person I can be. I sometimes fall short. I try to attend church every time I physically can. I miss 4 or 5 services every year because my ailments have me "tied" to the bed. To be a Christian, I don't think requires you to be in church every service. But I think we are judged by other people "how we live". I can't very well spend every Saturday night getting drunk in a bar and chasing strange women, and get up and go sing in the choir on Sunday morning. Then go do the same thing next Saturday. If everyone sees me getting drunk and chasing women knowing my wife is at home waiting on me to come home... What kind of hypocrite does that make me? No... I don't do that. But yes , I have short comings every day. That's why I do my best to go to church service 2 times on Sunday and also on Wednesday evening. I don't go to show off new shoes or new suit to other members. I sometimes wear clothes that aren't exactly up to date fashion wise. But they are as clean as the washer or the dry cleaners can get them. And I am physically clean as possible as Dial soap and Lava hand cleaner will get my skin.

I go to church every time I can to scrub my soul and to rid myself of the nasty feeling that sin leaves. I don't go for you. I don't go for my Dad that has been gone several decades. Or for my Mom that's been gone 5 years. I don't go for my children, grand children or my great grand children. I pray for them every time I'm there. For God to protect and watch over them. But I go for me... ME alone. I don't go to brag or show off. I go to pray for an old sinner that has been saved. ME.

I did not specify that I go to a Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran or Catholic Church. I go to a church where the preacher preaches and teaches from the black book he holds in his hands, The Holy Bible.

God bless you.

[jcwit]

Neither do I go to Church to show off what I'm wearing, but being as I believe I am in God's presence when in the Sanctuary I usually dress in my best, or close to it.

Just as I would not go for a job interview wearing cut off jeans and flip flops and a tee shirt.

Saw a young "lady?" today wearing short shorts that were see thru lace?????????????????????

Highly out of place IMO!



YMMV regarding this, just MO.

[rl69]

Just wondering how many of you go to church. How many actually practice what you profess to believe in? How many are hypocrites? How many keep the commandments everyday? Is church actually necessary? Be careful here....


I faithfully attend Sunday's Wednesday and our monthly bunch meetings
but I'm sorely lacking at attending the many other functions our church has

i practice what I preach
I'm not very good at it but I do try

I'm am not a hypocrite.
hypocrite in the Greek means actor my faith is not a act

I sin everyday almost every hour

Is church necessary? No, not too our salvation

Is church necessary? Yes its where we learn. How can we speak boldly about Christ if we don't know about him? Yes we can read and we should,but we also need guidance from a man chosen by God to lead us .

we also need to remember he is a man same as us. He falls short often,and is clouded by the ways of the world same as us. That's why we need to read and fellowship with others

[rl69]

its funny that many here let people seperate them selves and its really God and his son we worship, not the people around us. may be if your the one who sets an example in the church you could affect one of the believers to do better. i had to change churches once as it got so out of hand with the pastor and a girlfriend on the side that i had to go somewheres else. that stuff happens, leave. also i agree, if the methodist church allows gays we will split away, no choise. my pastor will split also. can allow that in a church. Go to a church of your choise and worship with the Joy that as a christian we are given. to have ones name wrote in the lambs book of life is a awesome thing and worth being happy about.

i have nothing too add just thought it should be posted again

[Blackwater]

6bg6ga: Just wondering how many of you go to church.

BW: I can't go much any more, but make it when I can. Physical problems.

6bg: How many actually practice what you profess to believe in?

BW: HAR! NOBODY is without sin and some element of hypocrisy! No, not ONE! But most of us are chastened by our Lord, and we keep coming back and trying to do better. Only ONE has walked this earth and been perfect. That's no excuse for what we do, of course, when we falter and fail, but it's still the simple truth of it. We do what we do, and learn from it as we go. Hopefully, we learn easily and well, and redirect ourselves daily or multiple times each day. Resisting temptations is always going to be an on-again, off-again situation with us all, I think. That's what we've been told, too, so it's what I believe. We pay for our sins one way or another at some time or another, that's for sure. Perfection just isn't ever going to be a part of our repertoire. If St. Peter said he was "chief among sinners," I don't even want to think about where that puts ME!

6bg: How many are hypocrites?

BW: Truthfully? All of us, at one time or another. I absolutely HATE hypocrites, and yet, I've done just that at times! I think it was Peter who said he couldn't stop himself from doing what he didn't WANT to do, and couldn't seem to make himself do what he DID want to do. If that was so with him, who among us here could claim better? I think these questions are the ones that are given us to keep us humble and honest. No matter how hard we try, not one among us achieves what we truly WANT to. But maybe that's the "secret?" That we're supposed to stay humble and keep trying .... and trying and trying and trying?

6bg: How many keep the commandments 6?

BW: I doubt any of us have never broken all 10 of them in the Old Testament. Multiple times, probably? Once again, we just have to keep trying and trying and trying, but it's got to be increasingly serious or it's all show and no go. Satan has learned through the millenea, just how to reach us at our weakest points. Sometimes we withstand his best efforts, and sometimes we yield to varying degrees. So much is said about our faith these days, but so little of it is truly helpful to us. Most of it is just repeating the same things over and over and over again. Good theology is hard to find, but it IS out there. And the good stuff truly edifies us, and helps us focus and understand the meanings behind the words of the Bible, and how it all links together into a unified whole. But most are "too busy" to really search that stuff out, and often try to excuse themselves by saying they're "too busy." Whatever degree of truth there may be in that, if we don't have ANY time for our Lord, would it not be expected that He may not have much time for us in return? That helps many keep straight. And progressing. Christianity is a challenge and a search, not a destination. That's my belief, anyway.

6bg: Is church actually necessary? Be careful here....

BW: Excellent question! According to the Bible, one CAN, as the good thief at the crucifixion, get to Heaven without having ever set foot inside a church door. Christ himself declared it so. So I'll have to go along with Christ, and say "No, it's not really necessary. But without it, we truly have a very strong tendency to regress, so it's surely advisable! BIG TIME! That's my 2 cents' worth, anyway. I have no corner on the market, but that's what I've brought to the table. Sure wish my harvest had been richer!

[6bg6ga]

Blackwater, thank you for your comments. NOBODY is without sin and some element of hypocrisy! Finally someone sees it. None are perfect and we aren't exected to be. We fall and we get back up some on their own and some with help. I'm one needing help and the first to admit it. I believe humility should play a part too. Another little story coming.... I remember a vist to a luthern church with a woman paster one time that also had a woman co paster or paster in training so to speak. Anyway the paster made a comment to me about the co paster telling me she was divorced and looking her nose down at her. I had the chance to have a conversation with the co paster and found out she had been abused/beat by her former husband. Now, I don't know the luthern teaching but I would assume that a divorce under these circumstances would be ok. The seem to welcome the gays and such so why not a divorced person?

[DCP]

I pray most Churches would welcome SINNERS in there Church, the divorced, gays, fornicators,drunkards,thieves and such

[Hickok]

"Jesus Christ came into this world to save sinners, of whom I am chief." I Timothy 1: 5

I go to a Baptist church with about 40 members. I am a sinner saved by faith in the Jesus Christ. I wont be perfect until the Lord regenerates my earthly body and gives me a perfect holy body like unto His.


Until such time, I press on, looking forward to that day. No person ever could or ever will live perfect according to the law. Only Jesus Christ, who fulfilled the law, the one and only perfect one in the flesh to do so. Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin. The perfect, sinless blood of my Redeemer Jesus, now covers me.

There are no perfect church gatherings, because there are no perfect believers. Peter, Paul, Barnabas, Silas, all had their faults, quarrels and differences, but they spread the Gospel, started new churches, and led many to salvation through the preaching of Jesus Christ.

[Boaz]

"Jesus Christ came into this world to save sinners, of whom I am chief." I Timothy 1: 5

I go to a Baptist church with about 40 members. I am a sinner saved by faith in the Jesus Christ. I wont be perfect until the Lord regenerates my earthly body and gives me a perfect holy body like unto His.


Until such time, I press on, looking forward to that day. No person ever could or ever will live perfect according to the law. Only Jesus Christ, who fulfilled the law, the one and only perfect one in the flesh to do so. Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin. The perfect, sinless blood of my Redeemer Jesus, now covers me.

There are no perfect church gatherings, because there are no perfect believers. Peter, Paul, Barnabas, Silas, all had their faults, quarrels and differences, but they spread the Gospel, started new churches, and led many to salvation through the preaching of Jesus Christ.

Good post , thank you .

[buckwheatpaul]

I have heard a preacher say that churches are full of parishioners that are going to hell because they are worshiping the church and not JESUS. I was raised Catholic and became a Methodist about 40 years ago...I am considering a move due to political position that the Methodist Church is taking...that is cutting the State of Israel loose.

Church should be about focusing on God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit to make us more obedient to God and to help others come to the Holy Trinity.....when it drifts away then it is time to drift away from it......and find a church that the minister actually does his job.

[USMC87]

There are two kinds of people in the world, Saved sinners and sinners still lost in their sins. The Church has always been filled with both kinds and yes there are plenty of those who you would consider hypocrites. As has been said before there are plenty who attend services just to have a good name in the community or just to assemble and take part in the activities. The Ten Commandments are perfect and are there to point us to Christ who perfectly kept them for me, There is no way I can abide by the Ten Commandments in this sinful fleshly body but in Christ I am perfect, Holy, Righteous, Justified, And Sanctified. There are no Methodist, Baptist and so on in the body of Christ, That's just the way "We" separate ourselves. We are either saved or not point blank, It's not I know Christ but rather as John 10 : 14 says " I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am know of mine". In the body there are no denominations but we have separations among men. I have services here at my house and there are 16 members who attend, This is the place GOD has provided for us to meet and I am thankful for it. GOD lives within His people not in a building so when the children of GOD arrive in the building the church has arrived, God's Spirit does not dwell among wood and brick but within His people who are described as lively stones. To practice what we preach is to practice what Christ told us, Christ is the example for us to preach and to conform our walk to. I am the first to confess of my short comings and downfalls but I am always aware of my calling and that I am to have a good report within and without the church. Practicing what we preach is and always will be a battle. Ephesians 6:12 We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Practicing our faith is a hard fought battle and just because a brother or sister falters in some area does not strike them as a hypocrite. Satan is always attacking the church and always will until Christ returns. 1 Peter 2:8 Be sober, be vigilant, because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking who he may devour. So we should always be building each other up, We are to watch as satan attacks as he is like the lion who is after a herd of animals, he will attack the weakest members. So our walk is one of being on guard for satan who is there to attack and present things before us to destroy our witness before the world. Though we may falter we are more than over comers in Christ!

[500MAG]

My family rarely misses Church. I try my best to follow what the Lord would want. We are not Jesus Christ, that is why he came and shed his blood to cover our short comings. The Holy Spirit convicts me when I do wrong but, like anyone with flesh, I sin.

[upr45]

Hickok said what was on my mind also-- " "Jesus Christ came into this world to save sinners, of whom I am chief." I Timothy 1: 5 ". Let me ask you a simple question -- what happens to hot coals when you separate them? They go out don't they? To burn brightly as a Christian we need the mutual encouragement of other like minded. That is in a sense why there are several different denominations, however the Church is comprised of all those who have trusted Jesus as their Savior. We are saved by God's grace, not by anything we have done. We (I) still fail daily! We strive to practice what we believe, however we will not be perfect while on this earth.

[Moonie]

Some people believe you must be a good person to go to church. Jesus didn't only associate with good people, he went to where he was needed. This is what our church does, we share His word with homeless, poor, drug addicts and prostitutes. We have a building we use in the "bad" area of town that we hold church services at on Tuesday an Saturday night. We don't care how people come, we just love the ones that do. We provide nourishment for their bodies and their souls with no judgement, as Christ did.

To be a Christian means to be Christ-like and do as he did. Too many churches don't get that, they would rather minister to themselves rather than those in true need.

[johnson1942]

just to clarify what every one is talking about, it can bring more peace to ones self. when you become saved and accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior that is when you become righteous and then you are righteous. you never ever need to become righteous again because that is sealed and your name is wrote in the Lambs book of life. some people say after that im working on my righteousness but what they really mean is they are working on their Holyness. righteousness really means this, your right with God. once your right with God then you work on your Holyness. your sin doent count against you anymore as the past present and future sin is washed away and you are right with God. Holyness is now the thing we should have on our mind and work towards. this is a simple explaination of words christians get mixed up. in their mind they know what they are talking about but their is a difference between righteousness and holyness. God bless all

[bangerjim]

What I believe, when I believe, when/how I pray, when I attend services - is between my God and me and certainly not any business of anyone else, especially those on a casting forum for ammo.

banger

[Blackwater]

Blackwater, thank you for your comments. NOBODY is without sin and some element of hypocrisy! Finally someone sees it. None are perfect and we aren't exected to be. We fall and we get back up some on their own and some with help. I'm one needing help and the first to admit it. I believe humility should play a part too. Another little story coming.... I remember a vist to a luthern church with a woman paster one time that also had a woman co paster or paster in training so to speak. Anyway the paster made a comment to me about the co paster telling me she was divorced and looking her nose down at her. I had the chance to have a conversation with the co paster and found out she had been abused/beat by her former husband. Now, I don't know the luthern teaching but I would assume that a divorce under these circumstances would be ok. The seem to welcome the gays and such so why not a divorced person?

You know, 6bg, you point out an excellent example of how faulty we all are, even our leaders, often (if not usually?). And the deniers and doubters all just LOVE to try to use that against us in their arguments and rationalizations for their non-belief. But it's their load to carry, and rationalizing never changed a thing.

Your post reminds me why I've long now come to believe that the greatest hallmark of a good Christian is their humility, but it's a humility without being "mousey" or recessive. It's just a calm, thoughtful resolve to do what we can and let Christ make up the difference if He wills to, and the serenity to accept whatever comes to us. I don't have it all figured out by any means, but this much has proven consistent and observable, repeatable and predictable enough that I recently told a precious 80+ yr. old friend that I knew she was a true Christian the first time I laid eyes on her. She was a bit shocked and asked how I could possibly know that just from looking at her. I told her it was the way she carried herself, obviously involved in thought, neither afraid nor overly optimistic, how she walked with assurance, and yet was obviously very humble and accepting of whatever she seemed to meet. It satisfied her, but being one who emphasizes works and words, she mostly just shrugged it off.

Anyway, if you get it all figured out, please clue me in. We all see through the glass darkly, and vary in what we've been able to discern for ourselves in our time, and that's the reason studying and talking among ourselves is so beneficial and fruitful, if we'll but give each other a little room now and then. I've learned things from my little Down's syndrome cousin that I'd likely never have learned anywhere elese. She's an amazing young lady, and I believe she walks with the Lord more closely and consistently than all of us "smarter" folks. There's a lesson in that if we'd just learn it.

It's really good to be retired now, and have the TIME to think more and more deeply about the things that really matter. The only hard part is realizing all the lost opportunities we had along the way, but those are the things that we learned from. It's the imperfections in our world that we learn best from. Is that a paradox or what?

[Blackwater]

"Jesus Christ came into this world to save sinners, of whom I am chief." I Timothy 1: 5

I go to a Baptist church with about 40 members. I am a sinner saved by faith in the Jesus Christ. I wont be perfect until the Lord regenerates my earthly body and gives me a perfect holy body like unto His.


Until such time, I press on, looking forward to that day. No person ever could or ever will live perfect according to the law. Only Jesus Christ, who fulfilled the law, the one and only perfect one in the flesh to do so. Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin. The perfect, sinless blood of my Redeemer Jesus, now covers me.

There are no perfect church gatherings, because there are no perfect believers. Peter, Paul, Barnabas, Silas, all had their faults, quarrels and differences, but they spread the Gospel, started new churches, and led many to salvation through the preaching of Jesus Christ.

What a poignant synopsis of the whole matter, Hickock! And we're ALL in that same boat with you, and will be, until as you said, Christ regenerates us into another, less flawed form. Thanks for a great post of tremendous insight. These things matter, especially in a day and time when it's become "fashionable" to try to set ourselves out to be better, stronger, richer and more knowledgable and understanding than we really are, or even COULD be.

[Blackwater]

I have heard a preacher say that churches are full of parishioners that are going to hell because they are worshiping the church and not JESUS. I was raised Catholic and became a Methodist about 40 years ago...I am considering a move due to political position that the Methodist Church is taking...that is cutting the State of Israel loose.

Church should be about focusing on God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit to make us more obedient to God and to help others come to the Holy Trinity.....when it drifts away then it is time to drift away from it......and find a church that the minister actually does his job.

Wow, Paul! You put your finger on what I've come to believe has become the greatest assault on the church, and possibly one of its greatest flawed responses - the entry of politics of secular progressive beliefs and thoughts intruding into what SHOULD be the worship of God. Yeah, God loves ALL sinners, even you and I, but taking obvious and blatant and unrepentant sinners into the fold as members just cannot be quite "right," IMO. It seems there as SO many things entering into faith these days, that tend to separate us one from another in all manner of ways, that the church well may be under a more insidious assault than when people were trying to kill us! They're attacking what we believe, and our traditional and reasonable practices for 2,000 years now! And THAT may be more dangerous than anything we've yet faced, again IMO.

Knowing sinners are loved is one thing. Taking them, and their obvious and unrepentant behavior into the churches as members is something I cannot rest easy about. Are WE excluding THEM, or are THEY simply unwilling or unable to conform to our real beliefs? This is the question I never hear whenever the issue is discussed, especially on TV, radio or wherever. Have we lost our ability to think critically, and separate the wheat from the chaff?

The SP's are always confusing the issue when, in their "questions," they include some assumptions at the outset that cannot, within the realm of true belief in the Bible, be accepted. As Einstein said, the key to finding the right answers lies in finding the right questions to ask in the first place. Once we do that, the answers seem obvious and self-evident, usually. They confuse the issues at the outset by asking assumptive questions that are not just wrong to start with, but are wrong-headed in nature. And we, unfortunately, usually take the bait, and make a mess of trying to deal with it, because there's really no answer to the questions as asked. They simply ask all the wrong questions, with all the wrong assumptions contained in them to start with.

It's as if they wanted to go north, but set out on a southward route to get there! And we Christians, secure in our own beliefs, and having resolved the answers we really need, find their idjit questions perplexing, because they assume all the wrong things to start with. It's one of their favorite techniques, it seems.

[hubcap52]

There's a great deal of confusion generated when using words, in this case 'church'. In any discussion, it's what is meant by the words you use and their context that's important. Too often through ignorance and/or deceit, words are used inappropriately. Then there's the filters we all have when we read/hear the words. That's why it's important to make sure each one is using the 'same definition on the same page of the same dictionary' when communicating. For the word 'church', do you mean a local congregation, a denomination, the universal Body of Christ, or ____?

BTW, I consider myself a recovering Baptist. Thankful for some of what I learned there, not for all. Theology is VITAL and important, but as I've gone on in my faith journey, I've come to believe that we're saved not because of our theology, but in spite of it.

I'm reminded of the anecdote of John Newton (author of the hymn, Amazing Grace) who allegedly said, "Should I make entrance into the Heavenly gates, I expect I will experience three great amazements. One would be that there will be people there that I never expected to see. Secondly, there will be people who I expected to see that are absent. But the greatest amazement of all by far is that I'm there."

Saved only by God's mercy, grace, the blood of Christ, and the work of the Holy Spirit.

[tnaz]

What I believe, when I believe, when/how I pray, when I attend services - is between my God and me and certainly not any business of anyone else, especially those on a casting forum for ammo.

banger
So this question should not have been asked? Or should this part of the forum be banned from the Cast Boolit Forum?

[tnaz]

What a poignant synopsis of the whole matter, Hickock! And we're ALL in that same boat with you, and will be, until as you said, Christ regenerates us into another, less flawed form. Thanks for a great post of tremendous insight. These things matter, especially in a day and time when it's become "fashionable" to try to set ourselves out to be better, stronger, richer and more knowledgable and understanding than we really are, or even COULD be.

Amen, I'm still Praying for our/this forum; The Whole Forum.

Terry

[Blackwater]

Theology is VITAL and important, but as I've gone on in my faith journey, I've come to believe that we're saved not because of our theology, but in spite of it.



You're far from alone, brother! FAR from alone! And it's ironic that in our earlier years, when we're fighting the fight to carve out our little place in the world, and learning how to simply make things work in our little area of it, we have so little time for real pursuit of wisdom and theology. Only when we're older, and not so busy, do we really have the proper time to devote to the more critical things in life. Is that one of the larger reasons for faith? Maybe so. But faith is hard. Maybe, again, that's why the young have to depend on it so much?

Truly, God who made us and all that is, knew what He was doing, and gave us VERY good advice to guide us on our pathways in life! We may not understand it all, but mostly, it's because we ask the wrong questions. It's in the quieter, stiller moments of our late lives that we have the experience and time to decipher the big questions we've always had for years. Thanks to God, who lets most of us reach that point!

[Garyshome]

So why is any of this your business?

[Blackwater]

Who are you addressing that to?

[opos]

Raised in the Episcopal Church...baptized and confirmed...acolyte in my early teens....raised by good God fearing parents that were survivors of the dust bowl and the depression and went on the become very successful and well regarded...With all the background I had I became a hopeless alcoholic in my late teens and did not get sober until my early 40's...I found a God of my understanding in a group I still maintain frequent contact with after these 35 years...The group is often called a cult or a "religious" sect but while it is based on having a God in a person's life it does not use God as a "weapon" to criticize other's..
Live and let live. There is a simple saying...Church is for people that fear going to hell and AA is for people that have been there.

I think "my God" welcomes all and does allow U turns.

[RP]

I am a sinner always been a sinner always will be a sinner but i am counting on the grace and forgiveness of JC as i like to call him to so i live everyday trying to be a better Christian but fall short every day. I have the problem is turning the other cheek

[tnaz]

Raised in the Episcopal Church...baptized and confirmed...acolyte in my early teens....raised by good God fearing parents that were survivors of the dust bowl and the depression and went on the become very successful and well regarded...With all the background I had I became a hopeless alcoholic in my late teens and did not get sober until my early 40's...I found a God of my understanding in a group I still maintain frequent contact with after these 35 years...The group is often called a cult or a "religious" sect but while it is based on having a God in a person's life it does not use God as a "weapon" to criticize other's..
Live and let live. There is a simple saying...Church is for people that fear going to hell and AA is for people that have been there.

I think "my God" welcomes all and does allow U turns.

Amen Mr. Opos

[Blackwater]

Opos, you bring up AA. I have had several friends who were alcoholics, but didn't drink any more. And I've even sat in on a couple of meetings thanks to the good graces of some friends there who vouched for me. And I have to say, I was VERY impressed with the absolute, brutal honesty I found there. Yeah, there were a few who tried to pass off excuses and rationalizations, but the others in the group didn't let them. I felt kind'a out of place, and a little embarassed that I couldn't contribute anything. I guess I felt like a voyeur? But it was a very touching and illuminating experience. Groups in AA vary quite a bit, as would be expected of any organization of humans would, but there, they spoke of God as most folks talk about the weather - it was just a given - something they all knew and woulnd't even attempt to deny or minimize or "reason away."

I wouldn't call them a "church" exactly, but they sure do DO the work of a very good church! And they've helped more people than any amount of drugs ever will! The drugs, like Antabuse, can help, but only temporarily to give them the simple chance to learn how to control their drinking without it. I've seen AA, get some guys sober that I would NEVER have suspected would have done so! These were "ticking time bombs" that I was absolutely sure didn't have the mental capacity even, any more, to get straight. But I was WRONG, and they DID! One of those guys in AA was a gunsmith friend of mine who was supposed to have been dead well over 20 years ago. He was one of the willdest alcoholics you'll ever find anywhere. Seriously! But he's still a friend, and God's not finished with him yet. I go see him in SC periodically, just to spend a little time with him and talk and see what he's working on. He's an absolute savant with classic rifle stocks! I finally got one of his, and it's a real beauty. And he's resisted tooth and nail the "whole ball of wax" of Christianity and the church, etc., but he's slowly been coming around for years. When his Dad died not long ago, as fine a man and Christian and bulwark of his church as he was, my friend seems finally to have come to humble himself enough to accept it all. It's taken an awful long time, but it's been worth it. If I told you what all he's been through, you wouldn't believe me.

So AA, for me at least, gets a pass, since I know what it's about. It surely depends on the group one is in, and they vary, but the good ones use Bible verses like you'll never see in a more regular church. And I've never seen as much pure, unadulterated honesty and frankness as I have in an AA meeting. This was a pretty tough group, though, one that most seemed to regard as a bunch of essentially un-PC renegades, who were as tough on each other at times as they'd been on themselves earlier in life.

Not many realize what all goes on in AA meetings, or how much they vary. Good ones really and truly have my great respect. I've seen them do wonders that nothing else has, or likely ever could, achieve. Not all the time, but not everyone CAN be saved from themselves. For those that can, their best bet by far is AA, NA, etc.

Funny isn't it? How the more serious the affliction, the more faith is the ultimate, and maybe only answer?

[opos]

Had a very close friend that was the priest at the Episcopal parish in Denver where my Dad and Mom attended for years...his Wife was active in AA...he used to comment that the AA meetings on Wednesday night at their parish house had full attendance most nights and the Church attendance was only about a third of that on Sunday...he always wondered why....

I've never been to a bad meeting...I've been to meetings where I might not have been willing to listen to what was said but I've never seen a bad meeting. Over the years I've been to churches for various reasons....baptisms, deaths, weddings, etc and my guess is that some would have similar feelings about church services...really no "good or bad" ones...just how they might affect the individual at any given time.

I'll mention one thing just in case there is someone "confused" about a non alcoholic attending an AA meeting...there are many different "kinds" of meetings...an "open meeting" is open to the public and often the members discuss things in a very general way and discuss the program and it's workings...then there are "speaker meetings" where a member might take 45 minutes of the hour meeting to "tell his or her story"..again it's open to the public and the speaker keeps his or her comments to a general nature. The "closed" meetings are not open to the public per se...they are for folks that are alcoholic and if a person is new the only requirement is a desire to stop drinking...a non alcoholic would probably be very uncomfortable in a closed AA meeting...that is where the discussions become more involved and "the work get's done". We normally ask that a non alcoholic not share at any of the meetings as anything they might have to say would be opinion rather than "experience, strength and hope"....any AA member would gladly chat with a person after the meeting or later on if they have comments or questions....Nothing secret about any of it...it's just that life saving is going on in many cases and the newcomer (or old timer if they have issues) need to feel comfortable being in a place that is safe to discuss things related to alcohol. I'm sure that attending a meeting without the background of being an alcoholic would be a bit like being a voyeur but probably more than anything...kind of uninteresting.

AA does not get anyone sober..AA is available to help the recovering alcoholic find a way to live an enjoyable and productive life after and without alcohol...the individual, should they decide to use AA as the vehicle to get sober, will have some suggested things to do...their choice as to if and when and how they might do them....anyone can stop drinking..most of us did it hundreds of times but for lasting sobriety and comfortable sobriety many of us had to find a replacement for the crutch of alcohol.
A God of our understanding is essential but there is no set "God description"...most of us have grown up with a religion and found we needed something different..many will return to the religion of their youth..many will find a new religion and some like me will get the spiritual direction we need from the program and fellowship itself...but "God" seems to be at the center of good recovery.

My kids (all grown) and my Grandkids have all been to meetings with me and none of them drink much if at all....they have gone to help celebrate anniversaries in sobriety or if I'm scheduled to speak...mostly they found it interesting but not something that was "earth shattering"..Our life is pretty simple...my Wife is 41 years sober and we mostly have friends that are "program"...just because that's who we see the most.

[Boaz]

Had a very close friend that was the priest at the Episcopal parish in Denver where my Dad and Mom attended for years...his Wife was active in AA...he used to comment that the AA meetings on Wednesday night at their parish house had full attendance most nights and the Church attendance was only about a third of that on Sunday...he always wondered why....

I've never been to a bad meeting...I've been to meetings where I might not have been willing to listen to what was said but I've never seen a bad meeting. Over the years I've been to churches for various reasons....baptisms, deaths, weddings, etc and my guess is that some would have similar feelings about church services...really no "good or bad" ones...just how they might affect the individual at any given time.

I'll mention one thing just in case there is someone "confused" about a non alcoholic attending an AA meeting...there are many different "kinds" of meetings...an "open meeting" is open to the public and often the members discuss things in a very general way and discuss the program and it's workings...then there are "speaker meetings" where a member might take 45 minutes of the hour meeting to "tell his or her story"..again it's open to the public and the speaker keeps his or her comments to a general nature. The "closed" meetings are not open to the public per se...they are for folks that are alcoholic and if a person is new the only requirement is a desire to stop drinking...a non alcoholic would probably be very uncomfortable in a closed AA meeting...that is where the discussions become more involved and "the work get's done". We normally ask that a non alcoholic not share at any of the meetings as anything they might have to say would be opinion rather than "experience, strength and hope"....any AA member would gladly chat with a person after the meeting or later on if they have comments or questions....Nothing secret about any of it...it's just that life saving is going on in many cases and the newcomer (or old timer if they have issues) need to feel comfortable being in a place that is safe to discuss things related to alcohol. I'm sure that attending a meeting without the background of being an alcoholic would be a bit like being a voyeur but probably more than anything...kind of uninteresting.

AA does not get anyone sober..AA is available to help the recovering alcoholic find a way to live an enjoyable and productive life after and without alcohol...the individual, should they decide to use AA as the vehicle to get sober, will have some suggested things to do...their choice as to if and when and how they might do them....anyone can stop drinking..most of us did it hundreds of times but for lasting sobriety and comfortable sobriety many of us had to find a replacement for the crutch of alcohol.
A God of our understanding is essential but there is no set "God description"...most of us have grown up with a religion and found we needed something different..many will return to the religion of their youth..many will find a new religion and some like me will get the spiritual direction we need from the program and fellowship itself...but "God" seems to be at the center of good recovery.

My kids (all grown) and my Grandkids have all been to meetings with me and none of them drink much if at all....they have gone to help celebrate anniversaries in sobriety or if I'm scheduled to speak...mostly they found it interesting but not something that was "earth shattering"..Our life is pretty simple...my Wife is 41 years sober and we mostly have friends that are "program"...just because that's who we see the most.

Thank you for your post .

[6bg6ga]

AA was brought up and while a little off course I'd like to say a lot of good people have been saved by this program. It takes a good person to admit they have a problem and then to deal with it. Maybe this shows a little faith.

[Blackwater]

Yeah, I'm aware of the deistic nature of the "higher power" in AA, but even so, most find our conventional Christian God, and most around here also find Christ as well. It's not required in AA, since it's a very purpose driven organization, but any time people are really and earnestly seeking Truth, I think they'll usually find Christ in the process. Even if they don't set out to do that. So in a way, belief in Christ is kind'a a by-product of its essential tenets and processes. After all, real "spiritual growth" has to land somewhere, and as one matures in spirit, that spirit HAS to find a real home, and .... where else would it naturally go? It may take many a long time and a lot of years to get there, but with the brutal honesty involved, I think it's inevitable that most would find Christ. I know some have a problem with "organized" churches, but I suspect that's mostly because they are so focused on staying sober, usually, at least. All these comments are "glittering generalities," which makes them not quite true, of course. AA is composed of anyone and everyone, like you say, who simply wants to get sober, and some may, for any number of reasons, have a built in negative attitude toward churches, and often not without significant reasons, but churches aren't Christianity, and belief in Christ is what Christ was given us for, while the churches are creations of man. Being created and maintained by men, the churches are fallible, and most or at least many in AA are so focused on staying sober, that this pretty much HAS to be their main focus. But I've known some older and more "experienced" AA members who, after nearly a lifetime of AA, finally came fully to Christ and joined a church, and they were very much rocks within that church. After all, they're used to the concept of flawed individuals, "falling off the wagon," etc., so they're very well prepared to deal with "backsliding" and hypocrisy and people just not quite living up to their goals. If St. Paul called himself "chief among sinners," then it's no wonder that we who haven't yet walked and talked with our Lord might fail and fall short on occasion.

And I'll say one other thing: Long time members of AA surely have the greatest patience of any group I've ever seen! Not hard to see why. And their somewhat fatalistic acceptance of whatever happens is wisdom in motion, I think. I learned a good deal from them, even though I'm not an alcoholic. People in crisis can't help but be instructive if we just pay attention. It's ultimately, just a microcosm of the whole world around them, with a specific focus and mission, and a set of general processes that all would do well to follow.

Y'all do some really outstanding work, and some of the things I've seen arise from AA are just flat unbelievable. And it's funny who responds to them, and who doesn't. One guy I remember comes from a good family, but seemed to everyone to be headed for death on a highway and likely to take someone with them in the process. But he got sober, despite everyone's reconciliation that there was "nothing we can do." And STAYED that way! In human terms, if in no other way, they really work some significant "miracles."

Y'all do some great work, sir! You ought to be proud of what you and so many others are contributing to. It makes SO much difference to any who'll simply submit themselves to the effort, and follow the guidelines set. Not all will progress to conventional Christian belief, but I think most would never find ANY sort of belief without it, and even belief in SOMETHING is a big advancement for many members. Again, it's hard to generalize about such a diverse organization, but I think you understand what I'm trying to say. Y'all do great work, and have my respect, greatly. No, it's not a church, but it's a real pathway that's likely to lead one to Christ, and sometimes, some folks have to get to a place where they CAN get to belief. Not all make it, just like all professing Christians many not make it to Heaven, but it surely leads a lot of folks toward that end in at least a general sense. Like I said, I think any real and honest examination of the simple truths of this world will, eventually, lead one to Christ, God and the whole ball of wax, IF they'll but simple separate the "church" from the reality of Christ.

For many, it's fearful to get involved with an organization that so commonly falls short of living what they believe, and I think anyone should understand that. And it's not a real substitute for a real, good church. But it's surely a great pathway toward real belief. And that's an advancement for most that can't be truly appreciated by most of us non-alcoholics. So what else is new on earth, right?

[opos]

Just a final note as I didn't want to "steer" the thread but did feel the "non Christian" spiritual folks needed a voice.

While Christ is a part of many folks in AA's spiritual or religious leaning there are many that do not share the belief in Christ or have other "religious" leanings that do not include Christ. I think the important thing is that AA is inclusionary and not exclusionary. I use the word God in discussing a spiritual way of life as it's not often "challenged" and most folks accept that I do have something that works. I have been acquainted and worked with a number of folks over the years that have strong religious convictions and do not have Jesus as part of those convictions. It would be tragic were they to be somehow turned away from sobriety because they have their own belief system that works....just not the same way a some feel it should.

I often hear that "we are human beings on a spiritual path"...being a guy that likes to create dialog I prefer to think "I'm a Spiritual being on a human path"..whatever the situation we all have our own lives to live and an obligation to be available for help for our fellow man/woman. Lots of folks feel the "anonymous" part of AA is because we are afraid to be found out...far from the truth...the anonymous portion directs us to place principles before personalities...I've been in meetings where bank presidents, movie actors, bikers, dishwashers, and all "sort" of folks are in attendance. The real tragedy would be if I pick and choose who's experiences I "listen to" were based on the person's status or standing in the community. Some of the most productive meetings for me have been in places where I would not have been drinking in my lowest days with people that I'd have not chosen to drink with..

My hope is that anyone with "a past" be it alcohol, sins as spelled out in the Bible or other literature, etc can find a way to allow changes to take place in their life that will be for the better for them and for those around them..The one thing about AA is that we do not recruit (or lead)..alcoholism is an affliction that even hypochondriacs don't claim or wish for...Our "work" is to take care of ourselves and each other and like Motel 6..keep the lights burning for the next soul that comes to seek help.

[Blackwater]

Understood. Maybe I didn't say it quite right, but thanks for the correction. All I really meant was that in any fair competition, especially over time, and provided good information, I think Christ will always win out. But the main job of AA, and one they MUST confine themselves to, is simply staying sober. That really HAS to be their near exclusive focus, and the "higher power," however one chooses to recognize it, is merely a part of the path toward sobriety. It doesn't have to even be a "god" of ANY kind. And it's their focus and allowance of whatever won't run folks off and back to the bottle that helps them work their awesome work with so many.

The finding of faith in Christ will always be an offshoot, really, of what they do. For some, especially those in the throes of real addiction, you'll never get them to Christ if they don't stop drinking, so that's one reason it's a "step" program, as I understand it. The 12 steps have surely done some amazing things for an awful lot of people. After they get sober, they've STILL got a lot of living (hopefully) left to do, and at least if they're sober, they are SO much more likely not to kill others and find Christ and so many, many more things. If they're not sober, they won't get to do any of those things.

I just admire what you folks do, and I know several who are devoutly Christian who found their faith due to AA. That ain't no small thing!

[opos]

I have a friend (won't "trade on his name") but a very well known man that is a highly devout Christian and openly expresses his faith...he's one of the toughest men on the face of the earth and comes from a place very far from anything good but today he simply exudes his Christian faith in everything he does...we have had a number of discussions about faith over the years and in a very good natured way he asked me my "position" on Christianity and of Jesus. I told him of my background in the church and then of my pathway to the faith that I have and my beliefs...he chuckled and said "Well, being a good born again Christian I now have to label you..it's what we do"...he then said "you are a Pagan"..wow...I told him he was being a bit harsh and he said "at least you are in good company...because the way I've catagorized you it places you in the same light as a Rabbi, a Shaman, a Buddhist and so on"....we had a good chuckle about that and both agreed..as we always had...that neither of us had much worth or chance and about the same time in life we each found a path that led us to our place today.

I probably got a little over board discussing too much of AA things...we are a tiny percentage of the population..I have no idea what the actual % numbers are regarding how many people are alcoholic, how many seek a different way of life and how many actually find recovery...but the numbers are not large. There are many ways to get and stay sober...we have no corner on sobriety..I only know that I tried many things and finally found my way in the Fellowship.

I've had the question asked "what is the God part of AA?"..That is a bit like asking what is the round side of a basketball. I have no argument with anyone that is on their path and I also don't condemn anyone that has not found a way to have a better life as their time may be in the next minute, week or year..we never know...I had no chance...none...but here I am....as I am. Now I'm going to write a check to Trump and go to bed.

[Boaz]

AA is a good program .

[Traffer]

I was raised Catholic. I quit the Catholic church when a nun tried to humiliate me while on summer vacation going from 8th grade to freshman in high school. Spent nearly 20 years getting drunk and being generally worthless. Got to a point in life where I tried to straighten out my life. That is when everything started going wrong. Ended up sitting there asking God what he was doing to me. I reminded him that I was trying to change and pretty much just yelling at God for picking on me. I thought to myself "how is he going to answer me?" I turned on the TV (had just gotten Cable) and a man was standing there holding a Bible saying, "ladies and gentlemen, this is the word of God" I thought, "Gee, I always believed the Bible was true but never read it." So I got a Bible out of the closet and started reading. I started in Romans because I thought it sounded noble. By the end of chapter one I was on my high horse saying, "yeah, those dirty homosexuals, fornicators, liars etc..." Then I read verse one and two of Chapter two. "You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things". I was concvicted to the point of shock. I looked up and "saw" heaven and the angels standing above me as if, "Ok you are caught". I jumped down to my knees and started praying. The thing that sticks in my mind that I prayed is this," Ok God, you got me. I don't know what to do now but I am going to spend the rest of my life reading the scriptures trying to do your will." Then I joined a fundamentalist Church. Unknown to me I started practicing legalism. I spent 20 years there learning that much was missing from my faith. I had been challenging the Church leaders about missing out on the Holy Spirit. Some 15 years has passed since I left that Church. Now my faith is more complete. I enjoy living in God's Grace and realize that His Holy Spirit is at work in the Church. I am a very happy man. Living to Gods Glory is a wonderful thing. So, yes I go to Church regularly and read the Bible and Pray regularly. It is part of my relationship with God.

[johnson1942]

your story is very very interesting, if their is more, please continue.

[UKShootist]

Early on in my membership of this board I was rightly taken to task over a comment I made. The reason I say 'rightly' was that I didn't notice that the title of this particular section is "Our Chapel". I will not, I hope, succumb to the temptation to enter into religious debate in the chapel of the faithful unless specifically invited to do so, whatever the faith. I do enjoy discussion on the subject, the livelier the better, but I would not go into a church, temple or mosque and start an argument there that the faithful are misguided.

I would say that given the faith and knowledge of many board members here that a separate section for open religious debate would be an interesting forum indeed, if perhaps somewhat bloody.

[Boaz]

Early on in my membership of this board I was rightly taken to task over a comment I made. The reason I say 'rightly' was that I didn't notice that the title of this particular section is "Our Chapel". I will not, I hope, succumb to the temptation to enter into religious debate in the chapel of the faithful unless specifically invited to do so, whatever the faith. I do enjoy discussion on the subject, the livelier the better, but I would not go into a church, temple or mosque and start an argument there that the faithful are misguided.

I would say that given the faith and knowledge of many board members here that a separate section for open religious debate would be an interesting forum indeed, if perhaps somewhat bloody.

It already exists at the bottom of the main board . The pit , there are many 'debates' there .

[UKShootist]

It already exists at the bottom of the main board . The pit , there are many 'debates' there .

I don't seem to be able to find anything listed as 'The Pit'. sounds interesting though.

[richhodg66]

I try to make it every Sunday and miss it when I don't. Ours is a very small church and has pretty relaxed services. It's a lot like the Southern Baptist Churches I used to attend, just doesn't seem to be as much bickering. Very much a neighborhood church.

I am far, far from being an exemplary Christian. I do have strong beliefs, tithe very regularly and try to do right most of the time. Seems I'm quick to anger, often judgemental and a big part of me is I worry too much about a lot of things which is a real indicator of weak faith, but on all three of these points, I'm a lot better than I used to be. Not sure how much of that is my faith or just plain getting older, probably a function of both.

God's still working on me. I often think I must be the most frustrating child He has.

[pmer]

Nice testimony Traffer.

I was raised going to a Lutheran church and was a weekend believer. I never really put 2 and 2 together till it went ELCA and some years of struggle on my part. The church isn't the place you drive to and worship, it's the group people that gather there. And if you read the Bible you can tell pretty quick if that church is adding or subtracting from God's word.

The OP's question is from a Catholic background and I don't have much to say about Catholic tradition. I go to a Evangelical Free Church and its been one of the best things that has happened to me. I owe much to the pastor from his phrase "dusty bibles lead to dirty lives". I didn't ask Jesus to come into my life till I was in my late 40's and it has been wonderful for me and my family. Going to church is being with others that are trying to be Christ like in their thoughts and actions, helping each other through times when we fall and celebrating victories over the evil one.

Don't be alone with he who is in the world because of a bad religious experience. It's a win for the wrong team!

[jmort]

I have been to most every brand of church, Roman Catholic, non-denominational, Reformed, Full Gospel, etc.. Benefited from all of them. Right now attending a non-denominational church. I don't attend church to prosper, but my life seems to go so much better when I get out the door on Sunday to fellowship with other Christians. Also great to have Christian friends to keep on the narrow path. It is true, "Iron Sharpens Iron."

[Blackwater]

Traffer, your story, I think, is rather typical of many of us. Isn't it funny how no matter who we are or what kind of background we come from, the road to real satisfaction in life always ends in belief? And that it's really a gradual process, often over many years, that brings what we initially sense to fruition? Maybe that's why we were advised to "study to show thyself approved?"

So many, many today are so wrapped up in the cares of everyday life and their "wants," that they let these things push out any time for the Bible and righteous thought. And in the process, they simply deny their own selves all the satisfactions and complacency that comes with real, deep belief and a deeper understanding of just exactly who and what we are, where we stand in relation to God, and how to go about honoring that which rightfully should be honored in our lives.

I've never seen an atheist that was really happy at a significantly deep level, have you? There's a reason for that. They may be "satisfied" at a very basic, elemental, existential level, or at least say they are. But I've never seen one whose happiness and satisfaction in life could ever match that of a real, studied and believing Christian. It's really an amazing difference, and it's so consistent that it simply can't be missed, even by a moderately educated redneck down in the swamps of Georgia.

None of us is perfect, or even knows or understands the Bible enough to stand in judgment over others. But let's remember that "judgment" is the condemning of the person. One CAN make assessments of what folks SAY, and still be righteous, and argue tooth and nail over matters. The disciples argued among themselves regularly. Why shouldn't we? They had Christ to settle all matters. We only have his Word, and that requires study to interpret. Doesn't that kind'a indicate that we're to spend our time searching for the real answers, instead of condemning each other?

We all come to faith from some different angle, just as Traffer's post clearly shows, but there are many commonalities in all of these ways, chief among which, I think, is the simple fact that it's going from being lost to being saved for us all. All else is really moot, in the end, really. And the story of the Prodigal Son shows clearly that we're to rejoice when any sinner comes to light, just as the father in the parable was so overjoyed when his wastrel son came home, and though the son asked to be a simple servant because he deserved no better, if even that, the father held a great feast in honor of his return, as beaten, dirty and bedraggled as the son had become. There's a lot of wisdom and insight and real, true justice in that story.

And anyone who thinks it's not a good thing to attend church, just needs to NOT attend for a while, to see the real difference for themselves. If they're existential and worldly in their views, they may not notice much difference, but if they're really true believers, there'll be something indistinct and perhaps undefinable missing. Church is the place we go to to celebrate and enjoy our faith with others, and pay our due diligence to God. And once in a while, we get a new insight from the preacher or someone in the church, or Sunday School, or something that happens there that we can think about, and glean some real insight into our own selves, and our families and friends, and the world in general around us.

I really miss not being able to get there more often than I do. Great folks there, even if we all ARE sinners, and imperfect while we're here on this plane. And just being among good folks helps make us better, too. As with kids, more is "caught than taught," and that ain't no small thing.

[dtknowles]

I don't seem to be able to find anything listed as 'The Pit'. sounds interesting though.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?50-Political-amp-Religious-Discussions

Tim

[UKShootist]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?50-Political-amp-Religious-Discussions

Tim

Thanks for that. I tried the link and it looks like I'm not allowed for some reason.:(

[Pine Baron]

Thanks for that. I tried the link and it looks like I'm not allowed for some reason.:(
6 months and 100 posts before access is allowed.

[dtknowles]

Thanks for that. I tried the link and it looks like I'm not allowed for some reason.:(

Too new of a member, need more time and maybe more posts.

Tim

[bangerjim]

Just hang around and post. You must meet the rules to get into the PIT............if your really want to!!!!!!!!!

A good place to go...........to get banned!

[jmort]

If you have been a member long enough, you know, that bickering on the non-Pit sub-forums is the cause of the majority of the bans. Only one person was disappeared of late from posting in The Pit. Arguing about ballistics really tore a hole in the membership.

[Blackwater]

UK, FWIW, I'm the one who pretty well "took you to task" over your initial post here, because I misinterpreted your reasons for posting here. When you helped me understand, I saw my error. Just wanted you to know that if you ever have any questions, please feel free to post them here. Just don't be surprised if you get differing answers, though, from different folks here. That's pretty well standard among us Christians, simply because the words of the Bible require some interpretation, and of course, no two of us interpret it quite exactly the same. So don't expect final answers, but more of opinions and insights as answers.

Will Rogers used to say, "I'm not a member of an organized political party, I'm a democrat." It's kind'a the same way with us Christians. We read and study (and sometimes just assume?) and conclude for ourselves, and even argue one concept over another, but the only truly definitive answers we'll get will be after we've left this world and gone to the next. And it IS there.

So don't expect simple, pat answers if you have questions, but merely "input" that you can sort out for yourself, and decide what you believe it all means. And Christianity isn't a destination so much as it is a walk towards something, wherein we all sometimes change directions when we realize we've gone off course. It's like navigating a ship on troubled seas. Some course corrections are always inevitable, simply because of the complexity of it all and our limited ability to perceive all that's in our instruction book - the Bible.

It's not for the meek of heart, or those demanding pat answers, but it's worth every effort and minute we spend in its pursuit and continuing development. When you really think about it, how could it be any other way, really? We may WANT pat answers, of course, but if my dog tried to "understand" me, he'd have no real way to understand much of my motivations and considerations. It's the same way when we contemplate God, and His will and plans and purposes for us.

So the doors will never quite fully open until we leave this world and its limitations, but we CAN learn plenty, if we are diligent and honest and earnest in the effort, and very fortunately, Christ doesn't require that we be perfect. Boy! Is THAT ever a realief! Hope this helps. Only thing we don't want here is the kind of contentious and sometimes inane exchanges like are typical in the pit ("political & religious" section). But honest questions are always welcome. That's what Chapels are for, often, or at least one of the reasons.

Anyone seeking answers will always be welcome here, and you certainly seem to be a man of impeccable manners, so I don't think anyone would resent your questions or presence here just because you don't believe .... yet. But nobody's appointed me ruler of this Chapel, so take anything I say as simply coming from just another member here on the forum, and not as anything definitive. Your manners alone should gain you our respect in and of themselves, and your seeming genuine good will.

It's a shame people don't talk to folks like you more these days, but PC philosophy/theology has infected even the most stalwart, and pretty effectively stifles most talk about matters concerning religion and its propagation of its tenets and concepts. So never feel out of place whenever you have honest questions. That's something we're instructed to respond to for any who are really seeking answers. And we do our best. Just don't expect perfection. Just good, honest answers about what we've found "works" for us. Then you have to sort it out for yourself, and some will be more helpful than others. It's just how it's always worked, even among the apostles themselves.

[Preacher Jim]

six your question is a good one. none of us go enough, practice enough or make good excuses why we don't. the building is a place where the church(body of believers) meet the Bible is clear that we are not to forsake gathering together to worship and draw strenth from one another. We are the coming together at God's invitation to worship and when we make excuses we are saying God i don't need you today. just my oppinion

[Blackwater]

That's so true Jim. Just a few scant years ago, our church sanctuary burned down. Lit by a theif who broke in looking for stuff to pawn or sell to get drug money. To cover his tracks (at least in his mind), he lit it on fire, and it burned to the ground. It was an old building that had been bricked up. My grandfather helped a lot on building it after the original sanctuary burned some time around the nineteen teens, IIRC. It was originally established in 1855, but was never anything really, but a simple country church. But we all loved the place. Our preacher hadn't been there all that long, but had already come to love the place and the people and attitude there. He picked out some of the bricks from the ashes, and took one by one of our "old heads" of the church, and asked him if he wanted one. His answer? "Why? I've got plenty of bricks if I need 'em right out there." The preacher said, "But this one's from the church." Curtis said, "That building isn't the church. It's the people inside that make it a church." I love our preacher, and he's a really good pastor, but on this occasion, he pretty much got a lesson from one of the old heads of the church. And my friend Curtis was right. It IS the people that are the church.

Me? I confess, I STILL harbor resentments against the idjit druggie that burned down one of the last thing that I had that was an example of my grandad's handiwork. I guess I'm just a little TOO sentimental about things like that. But I keep working on it. Some things are hard, but hard doesn't mean impossible. When my son was young, he'd often say, "But Daddy, that's HARD!" Then, I'd just smile a wry, challenging smile, and say, "Awwwww. And you can only do EASY things????" He hated that, but now it's my turn to take some of my own advice. Very humbling!

[UKShootist]

Blackwater, you're from Georgia? I've been there. Visited Forsyth and Macon, spent some time with local officers. I particularly admired all the bullet holes in the road signs, especially the larger calibre ones! :mrgreen:

Anyhow, you are clearly a Southern Gentleman and one to spend some time in discussion with. Reading this thread, I would like to say a couple of things. Firstly, you mention you have never met a happy atheist, well, you have at least corresponded with one, for that is me. At least, this will depend somewhat upon semantics, for I prefer to use the word 'contented' as I regard happiness as being what you experience as a change of state that happens when you experience a mood lift. This doesn't stop me being a grumpy old git sometimes, but from personal experience I don't think this stops Christians from being the same on occasions.

Life is good, for all the misery I have seen, both personal and professional. My earliest clear memory is when I was seven years old and I stood and watched my best friend fall into a canal and drown, his face inches under the water. In 2004 my life felt like it had stopped when my 20 year old son died as a result of a road traffic collision after being unconscious for 19 days in intensive care. Many disasters fell in between and after, and are not for sharing on a public forum, but in many ways I have been very lucky and, perhaps most importantly, I have been able to recognise that luck and enjoy life in my own way, enjoying the good, enduring the bad, and hoping I can tell the difference.

Now, I'm not going to say the other until such times as I reach the pit (on this forum, not the pit in case anyone is getting their hopes up!) because as I have said, I wouldn't walk into any chapel and start arguing with the faithful. I have, on a few occasions, given some evangelical types a bit of a hard, but polite, time. If they go knocking on doors to preach then they have to be prepared to face the music. But my debates are only ever intended to elicit further understanding of what people often call faith. My downfall is that I am too ready to respond in kind if someone should overstep what I consider to be the mark.

All the best, and as Dave Allen used to say "May your God go with you."

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Just wondering how many of you go to church. How many actually practice what you profess to believe in? How many are hypocrites? How many keep the commandments everyday? Is church actually necessary? Be careful here....

I just seen this thread for the first time and didn't take the time to read more than half the posts.
But I'd like to respond to the OP.

Myself, except for several months in 2009/2010(due to a girlfriend), I haven't been a regular member of a church since 1993. I do think I practice what I profess, although we(Christians) all fail...leading me to your next question, I believe all humans are fallible and sinful, So I'd expect that Christians would appear to be hypocrites to those with a different understanding.

Next, Hmmm keep the comandments? I try, but as I believe, it is impossible for us humans.

Lastly, Is Church going necessary? I can't answer that for everyone...I don't even know if I can answer that for myself? BUT, what I can say, is that when I was a regular member of the 'right' church, it sure makes being a Christian easier and better.

Years ago, when I was 20, and left my parents house and bought a house in a different town, I searched for a new church. I had been a Lutheran growing up, But I didn't 'take' to the Lutheran churches in my new town, but after visiting a small northern conservative Baptist church...I literally fell in love with the people there. I was accepted into a family, much like my family I was related to. I can't really explain it much more thoroughly than that. I have tons of stories how we helped people and how they helped me. I'm afraid they spoiled me for life, cuz I moved away 4 years later and have never been part of a church like that again.

The churches, in the area I now live in, that I did try to become a member at since then, never felt like that and I slowly drifted away. I have been in this area, where I live now, for over 20 years, and have given up looking for that group/congregation, to match that Baptist congregation I fell in love with.
That's 'why' I am not a regular member of a church...much to the chagrin of my best friend, who is a 'Elder' at one of the local Lutheran Churches.

[koehn,jim]

Do I go to church, every week. I keep the commandments as best I can. Do I screw up yes I do but that is why Catholics have confession. I believe that church is not strickly needed, you can talk to God anywhere that you choose. I also keep the sacraments.

[Blackwater]

Blackwater, you're from Georgia? I've been there. Visited Forsyth and Macon, spent some time with local officers. I particularly admired all the bullet holes in the road signs, especially the larger calibre ones! :mrgreen:

Anyhow, you are clearly a Southern Gentleman and one to spend some time in discussion with. Reading this thread, I would like to say a couple of things. Firstly, you mention you have never met a happy atheist, well, you have at least corresponded with one, for that is me. At least, this will depend somewhat upon semantics, for I prefer to use the word 'contented' as I regard happiness as being what you experience as a change of state that happens when you experience a mood lift. This doesn't stop me being a grumpy old git sometimes, but from personal experience I don't think this stops Christians from being the same on occasions.

Life is good, for all the misery I have seen, both personal and professional. My earliest clear memory is when I was seven years old and I stood and watched my best friend fall into a canal and drown, his face inches under the water. In 2004 my life felt like it had stopped when my 20 year old son died as a result of a road traffic collision after being unconscious for 19 days in intensive care. Many disasters fell in between and after, and are not for sharing on a public forum, but in many ways I have been very lucky and, perhaps most importantly, I have been able to recognise that luck and enjoy life in my own way, enjoying the good, enduring the bad, and hoping I can tell the difference.

Now, I'm not going to say the other until such times as I reach the pit (on this forum, not the pit in case anyone is getting their hopes up!) because as I have said, I wouldn't walk into any chapel and start arguing with the faithful. I have, on a few occasions, given some evangelical types a bit of a hard, but polite, time. If they go knocking on doors to preach then they have to be prepared to face the music. But my debates are only ever intended to elicit further understanding of what people often call faith. My downfall is that I am too ready to respond in kind if someone should overstep what I consider to be the mark.

All the best, and as Dave Allen used to say "May your God go with you."

Well, maybe I stand corrected. But I still think the reason you're happy is that you're simply truthful, and that's something I'll always respect. It's those who are pretentious that I was referring to, and those are the only kind I've met so far, until you at least. Happiness is a state of mind, but true satisfaction permeates the whole person, body, mind and spirit. Maybe I just didn't use the right word? People come to belief from all manner of directions, in the process of doing all kinds of things, but the single, uniform factor that I've been able to find is simply that they were actually seeking the real truth. And it's out there, as several have said in this and other threads. Any man who truly and earnestly and honestly seeks the truth can and will find it. It's kind'a funny how that works, but it really does. The Bible is admittedly hard to fathom in many ways. I've been stumped about it for years myself, so I know whereof I speak. But there really is truth, and it really is out there, and all we need to do to find it is actually seek it. It can be a frustrating experience for some, while some come to it pretty easily. Why the difference? I'm not sure, but those who find it late in life seem to, perhaps because of having so much experience through which to view it all, become some of the most devout believers. It really kind'a makes sense once a person comes to belief, but to the doubters and deniers, it can't, simply because most don't want it to.

I don't believe you're a real, bona fide atheist. I think you're just a man who's neutral right now and seeking. And you're honest enough to admit you don't believe. That's generally the hallmark of one who'll really make a great Christian if and when you come to belief. That's been my observation, at least. So just keep seeking and you WILL find. And when you find it, I think you'll actually find it rather amusing. Most real atheists just simply aren't really open to belief, so I think that separates you out from them in a very critical way. Any man as honest and up front as you, I think, will find faith at some point, simply because of your honesty.

And as for that "southern gentleman" thing, don't put something on me that I may not be able to carry, please! I can, when provoked sufficiently, be as redneck as anyone you're likely to find. I can't help it. It's just what I am. A friend of mine came up with the term, "Renaissance Redneck," which is just a term for rednecks with a college degree. That's about as close a description as I can think of, of me and a number of folks today.

And my education was something I've always valued. My degree is in Criminal Justice, which is basically just a study of all the humanities put together in a package. I've also been taught by some really good guys in the system in seminars. Most didn't really pay very much attention to those, but I found some of them fascinating.

Mostly, I've just continued to separate the wheat from the chaff as I've been able to test the stuff I was taught, and not all of it has proven very valid or useful. So I just kept searching, observing and analyzing, and thinking. And I've had an abundance of experience in several fields, from which to see a lot of people, often in what's now called "stressful situations." And they've been very instructive, when I simply thought about them. But I still have more questions than I do answers, and that's the "cost" of a real education backed up by experience.

And I need all the help I can get from others who are further along in the study of faith and the Bible, et al, than I am. But I'm just not bashful about what I believe. I've found that I'm not gonna' learn much unless I stimulate some conversation, and listen to those who disagree with me. If someone can point out to me why and how I'm full of prunes, I actually like that. Who'd want to run through life believing something that's wrong? A lot of people seem determined to do that these days, but I don't have to follow suit. So I just try not to, consciously.

But I have good faith that if you or anyone else will just honestly look for and weigh the evidence, you'll come to believe, even if you haven't yet. We're all a work "in progress," and it seems the honest and earnest DO find faith, while those who aren't, simply can't. Agian, that's my experience, and I've had a pretty good bit of it. Of all the things that I think Christ looks for in his followers, I think one of the chief traits is simple honesty, for without that, one can't use the truth even if they find it. I'm no prophet and I can't tell you what'll happen tomorrow, but I can relate my experience, and that pretty well covers it. Others will disagree, because that's just what we do, it seems, but FWIW, that's mine.

Best wishes to you, and keep looking, and it'll find you one day. And when it does, I think you'll understand better what I mean when I talk about satisfaction that permeates the whole being. It's something that really defies the best of author's words, and mine are rather plebian in nature, even at my best. And ANYBODY who's truly searching for truth is welcome here in the Chapel. Where else would one who's simply curious and in search of Truth go to? The only ones we'd resent are those who came here specifically to disrupt the place and cause dissention. Those raise my hackles, but honest seekers never will. So don't be a stranger here. Guys like you are an asset to us all, because sometimes you simply make us think, and any man who makes me think is my friend. With your attitude, you'll always be welcome here.

[Blackwater]

I just seen this thread for the first time and didn't take the time to read more than half the posts.
But I'd like to respond to the OP.

Myself, except for several months in 2009/2010(due to a girlfriend), I haven't been a regular member of a church since 1993. I do think I practice what I profess, although we(Christians) all fail...leading me to your next question, I believe all humans are fallible and sinful, So I'd expect that Christians would appear to be hypocrites to those with a different understanding.

Next, Hmmm keep the comandments? I try, but as I believe, it is impossible for us humans.

Lastly, Is Church going necessary? I can't answer that for everyone...I don't even know if I can answer that for myself? BUT, what I can say, is that when I was a regular member of the 'right' church, it sure makes being a Christian easier and better.

Years ago, when I was 20, and left my parents house and bought a house in a different town, I searched for a new church. I had been a Lutheran growing up, But I didn't 'take' to the Lutheran churches in my new town, but after visiting a small northern conservative Baptist church...I literally fell in love with the people there. I was accepted into a family, much like my family I was related to. I can't really explain it much more thoroughly than that. I have tons of stories how we helped people and how they helped me. I'm afraid they spoiled me for life, cuz I moved away 4 years later and have never been part of a church like that again.

The churches, in the area I now live in, that I did try to become a member at since then, never felt like that and I slowly drifted away. I have been in this area, where I live now, for over 20 years, and have given up looking for that group/congregation, to match that Baptist congregation I fell in love with.
That's 'why' I am not a regular member of a church...much to the chagrin of my best friend, who is a 'Elder' at one of the local Lutheran Churches.

JonB, FWIW, I think you put your finger on why I'll never be a member anywhere else but in my church that I've been a member of for over 50 years now. It's the people. The buildings aren't a church, it's the people inside it, like several here have said, and it's the people in a church that make it what it is. My own church has grown quite a bit, and I wasn't completely happy about it, because as a pattern, when a church grows to double or triple its size, there usually seem to be some trouble makers in the mix. But my fears seem to have been unfounded, for if there are any, they've sure adapted well to the church and its people. It used to be just another quiet little country church, but now has some significance in the county. Kind of an "alternative" of sorts to the more regimented and "formal" churches in town, and bigger and just as friendly (moreso in some cases) than some of the little coutnry churches.

People are very guarded about what they value, and some churches are a bit stand-offish at first to newcomers. But if they find you're open, sincere and honest, most, I think, will open up. So it might not hurt to give some of those you didn't feel fully comfortable in another try. It might or might not work out, but you're never gonna' know 'till you try. I just wish I could attend mine more often. Loving it from afar isn't very satisfying, and I really miss it.

[Preacher Jim]

UK I am going to pray you find the Lord before it's too late. I hate to see anyone in hell.

[PhantomF4E]

I drowned when I was 20 ,revived. Electrocuted when I was 21 , revived . Without going into details that are unexplainable and do not make sense when discussed . I go to church with every breath I have taken since . I am 57 now . Everywhere I am is church .

[Blackwater]

Wow! That's a lot of "proof" for one man! Thanks for chiming in with your own experiences. They matter.

[Boaz]

I drowned when I was 20 ,revived. Electrocuted when I was 21 , revived . Without going into details that are unexplainable and do not make sense when discussed . I go to church with every breath I have taken since . I am 57 now . Everywhere I am is church .

Thank you , a powerful testimony to our Lord .

[Pine Baron]

I drowned when I was 20 ,revived. Electrocuted when I was 21 , revived . Without going into details that are unexplainable and do not make sense when discussed . I go to church with every breath I have taken since . I am 57 now . Everywhere I am is church .
Wow, Phantom, Does God have a purpose for you or what? All Glory to God!

[Eamonn]

" Then I read verse one and two of Chapter two. "You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things"
I have always had an aversion to most religions because they are often intolerant to anything that is different and as my generation in Sweden still automatically became a member of the church at birth I exited when I became an adult.

These however are wise words and is how I have always tried to live my life. If people lived by them the world would be a much nicer place.

I think the term for my beliefs would be agnostic. My church, if you will, is the forest. Where I can smell the pine is where I find peace.

[Blackwater]

Eamonn, like you, I feel most "at home" out in the fields and on the waters. Here in the swamps of southeaster Ga., on the coastal plain, we have tons of mosquitoes and other biting insects. Chiggers are the most aggrevating of all! And our swamps just teem with all sorts of life. It's everywhere! And there are snakes that can kill you, and spiders. Yet, it's the most wondrous place I know! It's a near perfect and near complete representation of God's handiwork that I know. All the pleasures and pains and beauty and horror all mixed together, and if you keep your eyes open and are careful, you can really find your place within it all, and prosper.

The whole world is like that, though, no matter where we find ourselves in it. I've found beauty and wonder, horror and hollowness, in California, Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee, Kentucky, North Carolina, Virginia, Washington D.C., Indiana, Kansas, Oklahoma, Viet Nam and Japan. It really doesn't matter where you are. What matters is whether our eyes are open enough so that we CAN see what's really there before us to BE seen! And it's like that with Christianity as well. One really has to be willing to consider it - simply open to its possibilities - and then, if we really test it judiciously, I think it'll prove itself. That may sound like double-talk to one who as yet hasn't come to belief, but it's really true, and I'm very sincere about it. It may seem strange, but if you think for a minute, you'll realize that lots of strange things are really true in our world, and this isn't really all that exceptional at all.

I've long wanted to visit Sweden, but it looks like that's probably not going to happen for me at this point. You are a very hearty and interesting people! I've liked all the Swedes I've ever known. There haven't been a lot, but those I've run into have been uniformly very pleasant and honorable people. That still means something in this world.

As to Christianity, put it to the test! Give it an honest chance, and simply test it. Christianity is one of the few if not the only religion that invites itself to be tested, so that people might know, rather than merely believe, its truths. This isn't an overnight thing, but it's far from difficult, and far from being too long and boring for your consideration. And it just sits there awaiting your simple willingness to take it out for a test drive. Just be sure to find someone who has the real knowledge and spirit of Christianity within them to help point out the carpet, the radio, and all its capabilities when you take that test drive. And if you will, let us know what you think of it when you do. It's quite common, like buying a new car, to be ambivalent at first, and this is when some more reading up on the specs of the car and its provisions is in order, and many find that it takes several "test drives" for it to prove itself out.

But welcome to the Chapel here, and I hope you find it useful and illuminating. Derek's verse of the day and RL69's daily posts are very short, but give a new person a lot to think about. And the prayers for those of us in need might be illustrative to you as well. Science, now, has come right up to the threshold of proving that a god very much like the God of the Christian Bible MUST exist. So now, it actually takes less of a real leap of faith to cross over into the realm of true belief than it ever has before in mankind's history. Maybe God has granted us that boon to compensate and help counter the evil that seems to permeate our world today so often and so deeply? It makes sense that a truly loving God would do this for us at this stage in the earth's history, after all, doesn't it?

So welcome, and don't ever hesitate to ask ANY questions you have. We'll do our best here to answer them any time you are ready to ask them.

[GhostHawk]

I have had the great fortune to have been exposed to some 5 or 6 "Real" Christians.
They all practiced, lived it daily. Tended not to preach at all. Although if you expressed an interest or a problem they were all more than willing to stop what they were doing and pray with you. Or point you towards some bible verses that might help you through your current problems.

All of them lived simple lives well within their means.
They did not cheat on their taxes, take advantage of their neighbors.
Most did not use foul language at all. Although a few had rather interesting things they would say if they hit their thumb with a hammer or sat on a pin.

Fiddlesticks was about the worst I ever heard.

Yes they were human, at times they suffered through trials, depression, loss.

All of them were over time well respected in their communities and churches.
Funerals of one of them tended to overflow buildings.

Do I try to emulate them, yes. Do I fail mostly, yes. Do I get up tomorrow and try again, Yes.

Anyone can believe and still fail. Some have faith that can move mountains.
But few are given the gift to actually live like Christ. To give love not pain, support and encouragement instead of hate and fear.

I doubt that I will ever be in their class. I am pretty darn sure at least 2/3's of them would be considered saints.

It is not hard to go looking for reasons NOT to believe. In fact the vast majority of those who would call themselves Christian are in reality not a good choice to try to emulate. In fact all you really need to do is just say "I don't want to bother" Kay, nuff said. Go do something else.

In fact I have a theory that goes something like as soon as a person truly becomes a perfect christian the Lord calls them home and they are no longer here.

So the only ones we really have for an example are imperfect people.

We are all human, we all sin, err, hate, lie, steal, kill, and generally fail.
But some of us are trying to lift ourselves up out of the filth. Our belief in a better life beyond both improves who we are here and now as people, and enrichen's our life.

Reason enough for me to get up every morning and try to do better.

[Blackwater]

Amen, Ghost. My experience has been much like yours. Those folks are just golden in our lives, and what a shame that there aren't more among us whom we can say what you did about them. "One day at a time." That's the only thing most of us can do.

[DerekP Houston]

I'll just say I'm back at it after years of 'agnostic'. It has been up and down for me over the years, only been back for about 6 weeks now. Working for me so far, I always tried to practice "the golden rules" either way. Sometimes my anger gets ahead of my brain though and I mouth off. I'll just keep doing my best for now.

[Blackwater]

That's really all any of us can do, Derek. Like you, I've long fought a bad temperament, and it's been a very long, slow road to get to where I am now, but it's all been worth it. Sometimes, I think God gives us things like this so we can have the simple opportunity to learn, and in the process, grow humble enough to receive many of the mesages he left for us fully enough that we can claim to "understand" them, at least enough for them to become really functional in our lives. Often, I remember the lines from the old hymn, "Closer Walk with Thee," "I am weak but Thou art strong." I really think God gives us problems so we kind'a really HAVE to learn, because without strong motivations, we probably wouldn't???? That's just something I've thought about, anyway. The Lord truly DOES work in mysterious ways (at least to us) His wonders to fulfill!