Seating depth for WC

[soldierbilly1]

I bought the Lee mold for the 38 spl, 148 gr WC.
There is no apparent crimp groove on this guy, so what do I seat at?
I should be crimping, correct??

(Back in the day, I used the top groove and crimped there.)

thanks
billboy

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I crimp all my WC ammo, but I can't tell you that's the end all be all way to do it.

I seat them flush or just below the case mouth.
My NOE HBWC has a slight bevel on the top, to allow a crimp while seating flush.
Is there a slight bevel on your Lee mold ?
If not, I'd seat it just below the case mouth, then a slight crimp.


edited: it also depends on the load and how much case capacity you want/need?

[runfiverun]

I don't use the lee mold but I usually leave the front drive band out of the case and taper crimp to flatten things out.
there is enough neck tension there to light off 3 grs of powder in a 38 sp. case with ease.

now if I'm using the wad cutter in 357 cases and pushing it with 6+grs of powder then I seat to the same length [front band exposed] and roll crimp.

[reddog81]

What Lee WC mold are you talking about? I think there's a TL(tumble Lube) design and a regular design which has 3 lube groove and a crimp groove.

With the tumble lube design you can crimp into the top tumble lube groove or seat flush. Either way works.

[Char-Gar]

If the WC is to be shot in an autopistol, seat the bullet flush with the case mouth and put a slight roll crimp.

If the WC is to be shot in a revolver;

1. Roll crimp in crimp groove is there is on.
2. Taper crimp on side of bullet where the crimp groove should have been.
3. Roll crimp into the top lube groove.

All of the above work just fine, if the loaded rounds fit in the cylinder with ease. If not, adjust accordingly.

Pic 1 is NEI wadcutter with no crimp groove, case taper crimped in top lube groove.
Pic 2 is H&G wadcutter roll crimped in crimp groove on bullet.

[mdi]

Reddog beat me to it. I have used both of those bullets and have varied the bullet depth from flush to about 3/16" exposed, looking for difference in accuracy/performance. I didn't notice enough difference to say, for a fact, any depth was much better than any other (I'm sure it was me and my flawed testing/marksmanship). The button nose Lee bullet has a crimp groove so I seat to that depth and lightly roll crimp.

[soldierbilly1]

Sorry bout that. It is the Tumble Lube guy.
thanks
billyboy

[soldierbilly1]

Great responses from all.
Now, can you help me with my marksmanship?
8-)
billboy

[Virginia John]

I agree with runfiverun, I leave a little hanging out and taoer crimp.

[tazman]

Great responses from all.
Now, can you help me with my marksmanship?
8-)
billboy


Buy 20,000 primers, 8-10lb of Bullseye, WST, or Titegroup, and 140lb of lead. Cast and load as needed.
Shoot 200-400 rounds per week, concentrating on holding as steady as you can, the front sight, and a nice smooth trigger squeeze.
In a year or two your shooting will improve substantially. Mine did.

[bullseye67]

Comm'on now......only 20k primers....what's the poor guy gonna do for primers for "fun shootin" As you can tell from my forum name I have fired a couple of WC in my day. Dry fire 500 trigger squeezes a day, 1000 rounds a week for practice and two full matches a week will get you tuned up and on target. Now if you want to be "good" add a coach and Camp Perry or any National match is doable... I have always found flush loaded WC were the most consistent. Good luck and "front sight squeeze, front sight and squeeze"

[zubrato]

I'm still experimenting honestly, but I've found the best accuracy so far with one band out, and crimping in the crimp groove. Experimented with one crimp groove out, and seated flush.
Seems to be that a strong crimp helps with consistency and powder burn.
Wadcutters are great and incredibly interesting due to the sheer variations possible before settling on a load. Seating depth, lube grooves, alloy, powder burn rate, crimp, size to diameter, and loading style.
There's a lot to experiment with and it's half the fun trying new things once you think you've got an established load.

[soldierbilly1]

Thanks for the wonderful advice.
I am squeezing on my front sight right now.
:kidding:
bill boy!!!

[Echo]

Great responses from all.
Now, can you help me with my marksmanship?
8-)
billboy
Four words are the gist of pistol marksmanship - "Front Sight And Squeeze". I'll add - The grip should be fore & aft - fingertips could be flopping, or at least not touching the pistol grip, or if touching, NOT SQUEEZING! I believe it was Bonnie Harmon that said one should concentrate on the front sight - not just focus on it, but concentrate. Be aware of how the upper left corner of the front sight is so sharp, a perfect right angle. Sight alignment is important, but must be automatic, and ancillary to that upper left corner - or upper right corner, if one is left handed (lol). Wow - just thinking - it was over 50 years ago I heard Bonnie say that, at Perry...

[runfiverun]

the front sight thing does matter...
so does how much and the viscosity of your lube.
I use as little as possible and run it just wet enough to fling off at the muzzle, having a little friction to the lube is important.
I have been running a pretty long term experiment in my 9mm's where I just keep on thickening up the lube with no other changes.
I started out with the lube wet enough to just blow out of the groove [made one heck of a mess in the pistols] and have been adding more and more wax to the mix as I go.
I have 2 more batches to try one I think is just right and one should be a bit too hard.
the clean ness of the pistols and the accuracy has been improving as I go along.
this is solely a test of how the lubes viscosity affects the accuracy over time.
[it's also why I have a fiber drum with almost 10-k leftover 9mm rounds in it and a couple of ammo cans of separated rounds with the same load in them]
I have been doing a blind test where the wife, my s.i.l, and youngest daughter are doing the shooting but not knowing I have been slowly changing the lube.

[Char-Gar]

Buy 20,000 primers, 8-10lb of Bullseye, WST, or Titegroup, and 140lb of lead. Cast and load as needed.
Shoot 200-400 rounds per week, concentrating on holding as steady as you can, the front sight, and a nice smooth trigger squeeze.
In a year or two your shooting will improve substantially. Mine did.

I agree with all of that except the amount of rounds necessary. A fine pistol shot can be turned out with 1,000 rounds of concentrated practice and a good coach that sees your mistakes and help you make correction. Every shot fired is done with great determination and attention to all the basic. No plinking or noise making, just serious marksmanship.

The difference between an average pistol shot and a great pistol shot is mostly mental.

[tazman]

I don't have access to a good coach(or any coach for that matter) so I need more practice and rounds to work out the bugs.
Beside, I like to hear the gun go bang and see the holes in the target.
My wife already says I am mental where guns are concerned. Does that count?

[mdi]

Sorry bout that. It is the Tumble Lube guy.
thanks
billyboy
I normally seat the T/L bullet with mebbe 2 or 3 grooves exposed, but playing around (experimenting) I've gone as far as 5 grooves out of the case mouth...

[zubrato]

With regard to technique during shooting, some advice I find helpful is to not only focus on the front sight, but resist every urge to peek at the target and get a "play by play" of your shots.
Instead try to follow the front sight during recoil.
This will help with your follow up shots as well as keep you from peeking over your front sight.
If your target is not what it should be when you bring it back, randomly load 1-3 rounds into your revolver with no attention to where. The combined dry fire and live fire will give you an idea of what you're doing when you anticipate the shot.
The last advice seems counterintuitive, but I would say start shooting at 15-25 yards and only then start bringing your targets in. That distance brings out the best in everyone's focus and concentration, rather than shoot a few cloverleafs up close and expect to do the same at distance.
Remember, try to dry fire 5x as much as live fire. If this is your carry piece, practice your draw and dry fire slowly working your way up to medium speed until your muscle memory is developed and the feel of that gun is deeply burned into your brain.

Most importantly have fun!
Progress is far more important than perfect!

[35remington]

If you choose to seat the wadcutter flush reduce powder charges to compensate for the increased seating depth. Most load data allows for some amount of the bullet outside the case above the crimp groove rather than seating the entirety of the bullet in the case. Doing so generates more velocity and pressure with the same powder charge.

Char Gar's second picture is very similar to how I seat the Lee 148 TLWC. Due to its very generous meplat, very similar to Char Gar's second picture bullet, it is a favorite of mine for anything that needs maximum whap on target.

[s1120]

I seat my Lyman WC flush, with a slight roll crimp over the top. I also tried seating it out more. The Lyman has a small crimp grove... but my gun [S&W model 19] liked it flush better. Also It took about .3 gr less powder to get the same performance with it flush.

[mdi]

I seat my Lyman WC flush, with a slight roll crimp over the top. I also tried seating it out more. The Lyman has a small crimp grove... but my gun [S&W model 19] liked it flush better. Also It took about .3 gr less powder to get the same performance with it flush.
"Same performance"? Accuracy? Velocity? Not being snarky, just for my information...:wink:

[DerekP Houston]

Char Gar's second picture is very similar to how I seat the Lee 148 TLWC. Due to its very generous meplat, very similar to Char Gar's second picture bullet, it is a favorite of mine for anything that needs maximum whap on target.

That is the same as how I seat mine. If I leave them out to the first groove then they don't chamber in all my revolvers just the 357 ones.

[Bullwolf]

I have two Lee 148 full wad cutter moulds.

The Lee 358-148-WC regular lube groove version with a button nose.
And the Lee TL358-148-WC TL (Tumble Lube) band 148 grain version.

I seat the Lee "button nose" 148 grain wad cutter (Lee 358-148-WC) in the seat/crimping groove.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=169043&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1428208583

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=169044&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1415769414

3.0 to 3.5 grains of Bullseye works great for me with either of the full wad cutter loads in 38 Special tumble lubed in Alox, 45-45-10, or BLL.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=114720&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1403162480

I usually seat/roll crimp the TL full wad cutter into the last TL band. The Lee tumble lube wad cutter is one of my favorite plinking boolits in 38 Special. Seated this way, they have worked great in my various 38 Special caliber revolvers.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=169045&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1403162480

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=169046&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1464391793

Occasionally I change the seating depth with the TL wad cutter, and will crimp between the tumble lube bands for warmer loads, like in the 357 Magnum.

I seat the TL wad cutter out much farther, when used in conjunction with bird shot in my snake loads for easy visual identification. Doing so also helps make room so that 80 grains of shot will fit in the case under half of a (75 grain) TL wad cutter. That's my variation on the shot and a round ball load.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=169047&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1464392635

My snake loads get fired in a 357 Magnum revolver. My load data was worked up in MY revolvers and has proven to be safe in my guns. Please don't duplicate my loads without working them up for yourself to see if they are safe in YOUR pistol.



- Bullwolf

[s1120]

"Same performance"? Accuracy? Velocity? Not being snarky, just for my information...:wink:

I have no means to measure velocity, but the lower charge, flush seated, had the same grouping size, and the same point of impact on the target, as the higher charge set out to the crimp grove. So for me, and my gun, the flush seated, made sense. Its a revolver, so no issues with feeding one or the other. When I was searching for my load for bullseye shooting I made up 4 diferent loads of each flush, and out to the crimp, and the lowest flush, and the few grans more, out to the crimp grove shot the best. Makes sense because seating a little deeper will increase pressure a little bit, and my guess is both loads, equaled the same pressure.

[hanover67]

I read somewhere that if a wadcutter is seated slightly out of the top of the case, it centers itself in the cylinder throat better and is more accurate. Can't remember the source...