Do I owe you all an apology?

[Blackwater]

My friends, and I use that term in the full meaning of it, I received a PM from a very good man here stating he thought I was a bit "rough" on one of the interloping deniers here. If I've offended anyone, I want to herewith apologize sincerely and honestly. I'm just a simple man of faith who can err sometimes. Whenever I do, and I can see or be made to see it, I will always apologize and try to correct myself. It's just what honest Christians are supposed to do, and they're supposed to actually mean it when they do so, too. And I do.

If I've erred in being too "aggressive" with some of the deniers, I can only offer the following explanation for how it came about. Not intended as an excuse, just as an explanation and an offering of my reasoning, and hopefully, an explanation of my legitimate intent:

For years, I avoided "the pit" like the plague. So often, any post by a Christian expressing anything related to real faith, would be immediately jumped on by the few but significant number of deniers of all stripes, and they would essentially "bully" the faithful poster, and aggrevate them to the degree they'd become irked enough to simply disengage, perhaps after a "weak" last retort. This was unjust and irrational in any sort of legitimate debate, of course, but .... that's just what those types simply do. There's no morals or principles to it, other than those necessary to "justify" or rationalize their behavior and words. Consequently, people of faith "shook the dust" and just let them hold sway there.

This was very repugnant to me, because I know and all of you here know that this merely allows evil to overcome good. When we fail to defend our faith effectively and boldly, what else is left but evil? Thus, when I got to the point where I was simply tired of their "ruling" the pit as they'd come to do in matters of real religion, and decided to jump in and do whatever I knew how to do to counter their ideas and their tactics. I knew this would not be easy nor pleasant, but could not, in good faith, just sit and allow it to go unchecked and uncountered. So, I just jumped in, and knowing how these types and others try to pick everything apart like buzzards on roadkill, I also decided that I'd do all I knew how to state my case and ideas as precisely and accurately as I had the simple ability to do. This also resulted in my being panned for lengthy posts. I just don't have the talent to contain what I intend in short, sound-byte posts. I apologize for my lacking there as well. All I can say in my defense is that God made me the way I am, and I probably squandered many years in not developing my talents more fully. For that, I owe even God an apology!

I've also worked for some years with criminal offenders, and in that time, I learned that in dealing with those who are naturally inclined to be haughty, willful and antagonistic, the best tactic is to first get their attention. An old adage says that when dealing with a stubborn mule, it's best to get their attention first, and the best way to do that is to hit them squarely between the eyes with a 2x4. Of course, we can't and shouldn't ever do that with other people, but here in this etherous realm, the closest thing we can do is simply confront these antagonistic deniers with the simple facts of our faith, and the clear validity they have, whether they WANT to accept those as facts or not. What they do is really simple, after all. They just deny anything and everything that they don't WANT to consider or that runs counter to their already decided conclusions. It's a fool's errand for them to do that, of course, but that never stops them from doing it.

So, I determined that I'd be as aggressive and adamant about my faith as they were about their denials, if and when the occasion demanded it. Thus began my tenure in the pit. I've sort of become a lightning rod for their ill will and antagonism there. So be it. It's not what I want. I'd really like to see a real and honest debate there, but alas, that doesn't seem to be what our modern culture provides these days either there or many other places in our "modern" world. So be it. Christ NEVER promised us our time here would be easy or unpocked by unpleasantries, did He?

For many years now, PC theology has been slowly but steadily supplanting our traditional American and Christian values and habits, and even the most devout among us is not totally free from the effects of PC theology. I'm about the most un-PC person I know, frankly, and anyone who knows me knows not to ask what I think unless they really want to know, because they know I'll be absolutely honest in response. Even to friends. That means I don't always say what they want to hear. This means that all the friends I have are REAL friends, and are open and honest enough that they don't want simple rubber stamping of what they want. That's a REAL friend! And we'll argue, but then get over it, and both of us profit thereby over time. That's just how I've chosen to live and conduct my life.

I have no problem with others disagreeing with me, and regard their honest reasoning as one of my most valued assets. A man who fails to ongoingly evaluate and re-evaluate himself is diminishing himself greatly and tragically, I think. What I DO have a problem with is willful arrogance, haughtiness and assertions that have no backup behind them that's based in reason and logic, and observation and analysis. I have learned much though this being my guiding light, even if it hasn't always been perfectly applied. I err. What can I say?

But it seems my return of the aggression that has been so consistently shown by the deniers, has finally given rise to pique their ire enough that they have now followed me here to The Chapel. This, I never foresaw, and for this, I apologize to all of you good men for the needless and wanton disruption that I may have at least contributed to. Please accept my apology in the spirit with which it's given.

From now on, here in the Chapel, I'll simply be ignoring these interlopers and not responding to them at all in the least sort of way here in the Chapel. In the pit, we'll deal with whatever they wish to submit, but not here. I also humbly recommend that we all do likewise, and simply not respond in any way, no matter how tempting, to these interlopers, who are so out of place here. They don't HAVE to be disruptive if we don't allow them to be. This is, at least, my suggestion. And I just hope my apology is enough for you guys to forgive me for inciting their ire sufficiently for them to come interloping here in the Chapel. Thanks for any consideration you can lend me in this.

[jcwit]

To use one of your favorite words HAR!, you and I have fought tooth and nail in the past, however by and large overall we see eye to eye.

You sure don't owe me an apology.

[rancher1913]

if somebody has no faith and comes to a faith based room to deny they are wrong, this is a place of faith and the pit is the place of denial. these same people would not go to a church and cause a ruckus just as I would not go to a non-believers house and cause a ruckus, it needs to be a mater of respect.

[Blackwater]

Thanks, JC. You have no idea how much that really means to me, coming from you. I've come to regard you with great respect, even if we do get sideways with each other from time to time. You have the faith of your convictions, and you're not afraid or averse to putting it all on the line exactly as you see it. How could I not respect that? And thank again, sir!

What I guess I'm really apologizing for, is simple "unintended consequences." Sometimes, a man's got to do what a man feels he needs to do, and occasionally, there are developments in that that simply could not have been forseen. I've never claimed to be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but like you, I'll put it all on the line when I think it's called for. And that comes with some consequences sometimes, and some were never intended.

And thanks for the "Har," too! Makes me feel a lot better! :wink:

[Char-Gar]

You owe no one an apology for speaking your mind.

[Blackwater]

And thanks to you, Char-Gar, for you're one of those who sometimes counters me who's earned my respect. Whenever you see things differently than I do, it always makes me stop and think. I really appreciate and value that. It's guys like you who are my greatest friends, in some greatly significant ways. As Robert Burns said, "Ah but would the gift to give us, to see ourselves as others see us." I try to continually question and re-analyze myself, my motivations, etc., and refine myself as I'm able and come to greater understanding of myself and the world around me, but others see things I sometimes miss. Nothing is ever more significant to us than this.

Sometimes we may have to agree to disagree, but you always make me seriously think. Thanks. We all probably need a lot more of that.

[rl69]

You don't owe me an apology . I will say it's a fine line between speaking the truth and bashing somone over the head with a bible. (Not that I think you are doing that)

[Pine Baron]

Blackwater,
You have never offended me nor have you been out of line, IMHO. I rather enjoy your thoughtful and sincere posts.
As far as the Chapel is concerned, I see it founded on a great rock of strength and sustained by true men of Faith. The seas of those who doubt our Faith may crash upon us, their winds of disbelief may storm around us, but to no avail. We can only live our convictions and set an example. All Glory to God.

[DerekP Houston]

meh wouldn't be religion if people didn't argue or get heated :D. I read the disclaimer before I entered this section I personally just find it all interesting to read.

[Walkingwolf]

Words on the internet are words, but they either help our reputation as gun owners or they don't. I am deeply troubled by posters who so easily resort to claims of violence in their postings. No matter what their religion or excuse they damage our crusade to restore gun rights, and all rights in this country. An apology from such a person is like an apology for email gate from Hillary Clinton.

[jmort]

Not me.

[500MAG]

Don't apologize for being the light

[Blackwater]

Well, I feel a little better. Thanks, guys for some affirmation that at least I haven't offended anyone of faith ... yet at least. I'm an old Scot, with a bad temper. It's rarely piqued by most things, but when I see my faith and the faithful bullied, my fangs tend to grow, and it's a constant trial to keep them on a short leash. I'm actually a very peacable, not easily disturbed, happy-go-lucky kind of guy normally.

When meeting aggression of any kind, though, I don't tend to shrink away from it, and tend to engage with most if not all of what I have to engage with. In a PC environment, this makes me a bit of a "renegade" in the eyes of many, but I simply cannot and will not give in to PC past a certain point, determined normally by simple manners as I was taught them. I try at all times to be a gentleman, and honorable, but from all I've seen in my time, failing to counter any sort of aggression, whether verbal or physical, the absolute worst thing to do is sit and just take it and not defend one's self. It doesn't work in a self defense scenario, and it doesn't work in simple verbal parlance either. And in our willful world of today, little is more common than oral aggression, albeit it may sometimes be more implied than overt and outright. Pretensions are a biggie today as well, and I have little patience with those.

So still, if my posts have offended anyone, I still apologize, and if not, then please accept my thanks for your understanding. It matters.

OH! And BTW, what do you all think about just ignoring the interlopers, as I suggested? At least here in the Chapel? I'll be doing battle as righteously as I know how and can see to do it in the pit, but I in NO way want this subforum to be infected with the things that so infest the pit. I've resolved for my part, to just ignore them, no matter what they say. As the old saying goes, "sticks & stones, etc., etc."

[jcwit]

Sounds like a plan as they say!

[USMC87]

No apology needed here!

[jonp]

The only apology you owe me is the eye strain you cause by your lengthy posts ;-)

[dverna]

You only need to apologize if you have demeaned someone who did not deserve it. For what it is worth, I have not seen that tendency from you. At least not in the way you typically deal with those you disagree with.

Most at of us have thick skins, some have thick heads too!

I suggest you ask the "good man" who thinks you may have overstepped to help you find the post. If you feel it was too rough, then PM the guy you offended.

[Blackwater]

Good point, Don, and I did and have. He was quite cordial. That was one where I DID get it wrong. The ones who interlope here I will never apologize to. I don't mind engaging them in the pit, but here, it's SO awfully out of place! "Unto everything there is a season, and a time for everything in the earth." This just isn't a place or time for them to simply try to disrupt the good thing we have here at the Chapel. I value this place. You guys really make a difference here, to me and many more. Thanks.

[dverna]

As a non believer, still searching for answers, I read some of the posts in the Chapel. I try my best to NEVER respond to them....at least in a negative way. I have no "right" to do so and it would be impolite and crass.

A friend of mine was in the hospital and doing very badly. I am a non believer, yet, when I saw there was a Chapel, I entered it to be alone. There was a woman there in tears...praying...very moving. Two people hurting....one seeking comfort in God and one in solitude. I wondered if she was praying for her child or husband. It made my pain feel so insignificant in comparison.

Anyone entering a Chapel should do so with utmost humility and respect. Whether that Chapel is a physical place or here in this form. Violators on this forum should be warned and banned if they persist. Just my $.02.

[Boaz]

No one will want an apology . You have friends here that care for you .

[GhostHawk]

No apology needed or wanted here.

I am not a big fan of your posting style, so I do tend to skip your longer posts.
But no harm no foul. You have the right to say it and I have the right to decide if I want to listen to it or not.

[Don Purcell]

We all may disagree on some of our beliefs but in a way I look at us here like a bunch of hill folk. We may "fight" and disagree amongst us but let someone on the outside slight one of us and LOOK OUT! No apologies needed Blackwater.

[aspangler]

Blackwater you owe me no apology either. I respect you for what you are doing. BTW. apologizing to those in the Chapel whether they were offened or not is truely a Biblical thing to do. I did that in my testimony last Sunday morning at church. I think it gives us more strength to do this occasionally.
As the saying goes " You're a good man, Charlie Brown."

[wv109323]

You have not offended me. If people don't want your opinion they should keep theirs to themselves.
As a Christian, you can not sugar coat or water-down God's Word, but you can not persuade someone by wagging your finger in their face. It is a balancing act to say the least. The Bible uses the terms "compel them to come to God's house" and "snatch them out of the fire." Those are not real PC terms.

[Preacher Jim]

Blackwater did you intentionally want to offend some person? No I know you. If they are offended by truth so be it. If they disagree with your wording or interpretation, that's healthy debate. An all learn one another through discussion of ideas. May we all grow in our knowledge of the savior and our understanding of one another, Till this family is of one mind, the mind of Christ.

[plus1hdcp]

It is unfortunate many people today are "offended" instead of simply recognizing a difference in opinion. Often times this difference in opinions illuminates a "fork in the road" which the "offended" party needs to take a second look at their stance. Perhaps they could use a change in direction and really didn't want to hear the message. No apology needed sir! Keep up the good fight.

[claude]

If this is the issue between yourself and UK Shootist, you have apologized enough, your replies in that post made it abundantly clear to all who choose to read it that you and he finished on amicable terms.

[country gent]

Blackwater, One of the things that gains respect is speaking your mind, standing by it and being honest. People who tell me "what I want to hear" then back pedal when called on to stand up have little real respect from others. I may not like what you say but I want to hear what you believe and think. Any thing else is false

[flyer1]

You owe no apology to me. In fact, i look forward to your posts. I usually learn from them. Thank you.

[Blackwater]

Well, guys, thanks for your input. As the old poet Robert Burns said, "Ah but would the gift to give us, to see ourselves as others see us," and it's hard to know how one's posts are taken here in this etherous world where tonal inflections and facial expressions are lacking to convey what we mean by what's posted. Then too, in our PC world today, most folks seem so "busy" or occupied in their minds by whatever is going on within them, that we miss a lot. It's tough to be really honest these days. So many people have come to expect to hear what they want instead of what's really going on in others' minds, that I do sometimes tend to offend some even though no offense is intended. My Dad was one of those old 3-war Marines (China, WWII and Korea) and he had the same habit. You just didn't ask him what he thought unless you really wanted to know, because he would tell you exactly what was on his mind. I think he did this in the Marines, too, and he advanced as far as he could go at that time. Of course, that was when people weren't so PC as so many are today, too. He had the same problem - offending folks when all he really did was answer their questions, at least later in life. PC has been brewing and stirring for a long time. I think it's just a perversion of what was once considered "good manners."

Anyway, thanks. I don't want or intend to offend anyone here or elsewhere, except maybe the interlopers here. I probably shouldn't even intend that, but .... what can I say? I'm human, and if I sin, at least I try not to lie about it and compound it. Then too, realizing one's faults and challenges is the first step to dealing with them effectively.

I'm just glad that nobody, at least so far, seems to be offended. It certainly wasn't my intent.

And thanks particularly for the comments about our differences. It seems many deniers and other non-believers tend to assume we Christians are all supposed to be of a single mind, always singing psalms and holding hands around a campfire at a tent meeting. Even the apostles weren't like that! Even they questioned each other and argued among themselves, but from that, they all profited and grew. This may well be the single most obvious thing about Christianity that most non-believers simply don't "get?" If any of you have it all figured out, please, by all means, explain it to me because I'm still, and will always be, a simple man in search of answers and insight. I have some significant answers, but there'll always be more questions than I CAN answer, and I'll never even get around to addressing them all. But it's sure been one awesome ride so far, and I look forward to the rest of it, too.

And thanks for you guys who DISagree with me. I can't learn anything from guys who think just like I do. You keep me thinking and re-evaluating things, and that's always an asset in anything that's really important in life. And too, you so frequently keep me amused with your insights, as well, and I REALLY appreciate those. A Christian without a sense of humor isn't much of a Christian, I suspect?

You guys have really come to mean a lot to me. It's hard to find folks who even WANT to talk about the serious things in life these days, and what could be more serious than politics and religion? It's an old truism that people shouldn't talk about either, but when G. K. Chesterton was given his first job as a journalist, he was told he could write about anything BUT politics and religion. His reply was, "But there's nothing else WORTH talking about." I think he had it right, and the less we talk openly and honestly about those two subjects, the more problems we seem to have. I don't think the two are unrelated. Just me, of course. It's as though many don't even WANT to find the answers, and to the extent that that is true among them, they just assure themselves they can't and won't find those answers, which leaves them pretty well in a state of neglect and defacto anarchy. But what do I know? I'm just a good ol' boy redneck down in the swamps of Georgia, and I guess I just don't "get" a lot of the "modern" stuff in our world today. I'm really a bit of a throwback to a time now gone. And that keeps me kind'a out of place in our modern world, I guess?

It's good to have you guys to help keep me straight. Thanks.

[Pb Burner]

Guys, I guess I should admit to being responsible for this thread. I wasn't personally offended by Blackwaters reply in another thread. I just wanted to let him know how I felt without disrupting that discussion.
Blackwater sent me a much appreciated and honest reply.
The way you guys, that can sometimes butt heads, can be so amicable and friendly towards one another in a thread like this is very heartwarming, at least to me.
You people that have replied in this thread is what makes this such a great place.
Blackwater, I think that respect wise and friend wise, you are a very wealthy man.
I respect you much for your love for God and your country, (and I hope I didn't stick my nose in where it shouldn't have been).
Thanks guys!

[Blackwater]

Gee whiz, PB! Don't put something on me I may not be able to carry, PLEASE! I'm no gift to anyone. Just another guy who's still searching for "the lost wisdom" that we all here are seeking in our various ways. The great thing about this place is that we WILL discuss, and even argue, the IMPORTANT things. There's not a one here who can't or won't learn from that if we just do it honestly and earnestly. And every single one here has stuff to contribute. I know RL's simple daily verses have become something I look forward to. Being presented with a single verse, out of context and therefore free from surrounding "confusions," surely illuminates the depth of the verses he picks. I don't think there's a person here who hasn't impressed me.

Some of us have had more experience in expressing ourselves in writing than others, but if we can't learn to read between the lines and glean the intent and content pretty well, our labors to find real answers are probably in vain. Still, here in this etherous world, devoid of inflection and expression, which are so crucial to us in understanding each other, it's hard NOT to misunderstand sometimes. I for one am seldom "angry" when I post, but more thoughtful and pointed, but I get accused of being angry fairly often. Usually (but not always) it's by someone who IS angry that I'd have the nerve to disagree with them. I guess that's just life though? Nothing is more common than misunderstanding each other. Sometimes, I think it's a wonder we can really communicate at all here. But some of those surprises we get in life CAN be rather pleasant, can't they?

I know my sometimes long posts irritate some, but I can't for the life of me express myself without them sometimes. I just don't have the talent for that. Char-Gar is one of my favorites because he DOES have that talent. As a minister, I guess he's had a lot more practice than I have? It's a failing I freely admit, but just have to work with because I don't have anything better to offer. Sure wish I did. My fingers might even be a tad longer if I could! :wink:

But we all labor through this "veil of tears" with what we're given to work with, and I for one, think we often rise above our natural selves if we just take what we have to work with and go with it. Yeah, it's "extra trouble" to deal with our variances, but .... where's the reward if we don't? Only the things that COST us something, even if only a little, are really valued. And we all sometimes fall short of our goals. I can't think of anything more common than that. We Christians, at least, have the reassurance and principle of receiving forgiveness when we err honestly, and simply recognize and own up to it.

Christianity is probably the hardest thing I know of in this world to actualize within us fully. None of us seems to be really capable of that. But the more we can and do actualize it within us, the happier, more satisfied, and serene we can be because of it. Almost like it was planned that way, isn't it? Truly, our God is an awesome God and knows SO much more than we do, or even CAN!

So thanks to all of you. You mean more to me than I can put into words.

[Hickok]

Brother, all is well. No apology needed for me!

[castalott]

Well Blackwater...I demand an apology! You can make it up by taking me out to the Best Texmex restaurant you know of! I might even buy.... :mrgreen:

( no...no apology needed....)

Dale