K frame Smith revolving carbine idea

[justashooter]

Some years ago I came across a glut of K frame guns at auction and discovered how easy it was to remove a pinned barrel (one was bulged). Noting that Numrich had 18" .357 barrels I ordered a few and planned to build a revolving carbine. Finding a way to thread the barrel slowed me down long enuf for business travel to send this project to the back shelf.

Cleaning the other day I came across the collection of parts and interest was renewed, hence my request in an adjacent thread for the loan of a .540X36 TPI die. I have a lathe that can turn accurately, but I am a bit leary of the accuracy of my single pointing. I have found a die holder that can be chucked up in the dead center for hand turning. Contouring and adding necessary barrel features is not that big of a deal with silver solder on the bench.

Has anyone built a similar gun? Die, anyone? Thoughts?

[shoot-n-lead]

Kinda like this?

168683

[justashooter]

a silencer on a revolver...brilliant.

[shoot-n-lead]

That probably is not a silencer...it is probably a bull barrel as I imagine that is a .454 or similar caliber (heavy bullets) and the weight would help keep the muzzle down.

[justashooter]

I was not thinking about a high energy cartridge gun, more like a toy to play with that would smack groundhogs out to 75 yards and be fun and cheap for kids to shoot. Gas venting at cylinder gap would be severe with high pressure rounds. 200 grain castings in 38 cases might benefit from the extra barrel length with blue dot, but we would be staying under 500 foot pounds and 1100 fps, for sure. And this at no more than +p pressures.

[Mk42gunner]

No help on the die, maybe some practice single pointing threads to build your confidence up?

Long guns on revolver frames have been done before, quite a bit actually. The problem comes when you try to hold the barrel like on a normal rifle and expose your wrist to the blast coming from the barrel to cylinder gap. The newest iteration of revolving carbines or shotguns, from Rossi, have fairly unattractive shield.

I do remember an article in Guns & Ammo from 1980 or so about an N frame converted to top break with three barrels-- .357, .22LR, and the center barrel was a single shot .410 ala LeMat.

Would I personally do a revolving carbine? Probably not.

Robert

[shoot-n-lead]

Revolver carbines have been around for a while...think Colt Buntline.

[376Steyr]

Shooting a revolver carbine without eye protection would be scary, no matter what pressure load you are using. Even with eye protection I'm sure it would be uncomfortable, with gas spraying inches, instead of feet, away from your face. I think there is a reason they never caught on.

[country gent]

It can be done. for the best possible thread fit and form I would singe point cut the threads. sacrifice some 5/8" cold roll to the project turn the correct end on it cut the thread relief and end relief then cut the threads do this several times for practice and to build skill level and confidence up. I perfer a threading tool ground on High Speed steel with cobalt for this work I cut the back half of the tool away 3/8"-1/2" back from front and with a center gage grind the threading tool on the boss left. This moves the threading tool forward on the tool bit, instead of 3/8" center point its 3/32" centered point givingmore room in the thread relief allowing you to get much closer to the shoulder. Set compound to 29 1/2* and crossfeed to 0 on a light touch. Move in and out with crossfeed and feed cuts in on the compound. I always engage on the same number on the thread dial, check your machine as even and odd threads on some machines require diffrent numbers on the thread dial. 36 tpi are quick and easy to cut. SHould go very well quickly for you. These revolving rifles are alot of fun and a ball to use. Ive had several cap and ball revolvers with the stock attachment. Have you given any thought to attaching the shoulder stock to the grip frame yet. That will be trickier machining than the barrel

[pietro]

.

The folks shooting Rossi Circuit Judge's haven't reported any facial injuries from shooting.

You would need to take care, not to burn your forward forearm and/or shirtsleeve from the gas leakage@ the front of the cylinder.

The Rossi uses a built-in gas deflector to alleviate the problem.

http://14544-presscdn-0-64.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/rossi_circuit_judgea0215111.jpg

http://www.gunblast.com/images/Taurus-CircuitJudge/DSC00053.JPG

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/Firearms/SCJ44/images/scj44_05.jpg



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[justashooter]

Have you given any thought to attaching the shoulder stock to the grip frame yet. That will be trickier machining than the barrel

your machine still has readable numbers on the cross-feed? (LOL)

See the pix at bottom of related thread from an article written in 1993 re this subject. Another pic in the article showed a threaded sleeve welded to the back of the revolver grip frame for a long stock bolt...and a short sleeve to bottom of barrel to affix the forearm.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?307477-540X36-TPI-die

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I don't believe facial burns would be the issue, in a revolver to modern standards of firing-pin fit and headspace. When you shoot a pistol revolver with a double-handed grip, your left hand is closer to the cylinder gap than your face with a revolving carbine. Admittedly your face is more important, but people would notice burned hands if it was happening , and they don't. In a carbine that shield should take care of any cylinder-gap blast to the hand, forearm sleeve, and as we have seen, can be quite inconspicuously integrated with the forend wood. Some of the early revolving carbines had a palm-rest like a sort of doorknob which made for a comfortable offhand position with the elbow resting on the torso, and this possibly folding, could be made integral with the shield.

That doesn't necessarily make it preferable to other kinds of short-range carbines, though. A well set-up revolver can deliver accuracy which while not of rifle standard, is quite good enough for most purposes. I have never been a competitive shooter, and my only trophy (a modest spoon) was for the use of a friend's shoulder-stocked artillery Luger at 300 yards. I don't think a shoulder-stocked pistol is nearly as good as some people imagine - no bette than a really good pistol shot, had one of those been present, could have done with the Luger alone. Something with more length and weight would be better, but you would sacrifice quite a bit of it by shooting double-action.

The revolver has some advantage for shooting valuable brass in a swamp or long grass. This is a picture of about half the primer in a 5.56mm. case, with a little pyramidal pimple where it was extruded into a tiny dent in the bolt-face, made by an extra-hard grain of sand. I picked it up at a likely resistance ambush site in Kuwait city, and if it had been used in crime, as the Iraqis would no doubt have called it, that is a case the shooter would much have preferred not to leave behind. It occurs to me that if firearms had been invented auto or full-auto, there would have been quite an outcry against the dreaded stealth revolver or double rifle.

168930

[John Taylor]

I have an old century arms 45-70 revolver that I put a rifle barrel on. It's missing a bunch of parts so it has not been finished yet.

[Walter Laich]

I had not considered the closeness of the eyes to the cylinder. Of course anyone can see that in the picture, anyone other than me.
another reason I love this forum

[leadman]

This project will cost you an additional $200 for putting the shoulder stock on a pistol. The ATF considers a handgun as a gun to be fired with one hand.
The only time you can get away with not paying the $200 for the Tax Stamp is with gun like the Contender/ Encore that uses the same frame (receiver) for both a handgun and rifle. Also little semi-auto imported pistol that slips into a rifle stock with an existing rifle barrel in it.169642

[M-Tecs]

If the barrel is longer that 16" and the shoulder stock is long enough to make 29" total a tax stamp shouldn't be rquired.

[Spector]

I thought you could convert a handgun to a rifle without a stamp, but not a rifle to a handgun unless you get BATF approval and a stamp first.

Mike

[leadman]

Might be right, I'll look it up when I'm not so tired. There was just another one or 2 letters released by ATF on this recently so I'll locate these.

[MtGun44]

Illegal to put a butt stock on a pistol.

Bill

[W.R.Buchanan]

Justashooter: if you set up your threading tool on the back side of the work and run the machine in reverse you start from the thread relief and cut your threads going out. This way you avoid threading up to a shoulder which can be quite scary.

This is easy to do and if you take Country Gents advice and do a few test runs on some scrap stock you'll get the hang of it pretty quickly.

The rule on Thread Dials is:

Even number threads,,, Engage on any "Line on the Dial."

Odd number threads,,, Engage on any "Numbered Line."

1/2 threads( IE 11 1/2) engage on the "Same Number Line."

And Metric Threads (if your lathe has that capability) You may not disengage the half nut at all after it is engaged. You stop the machine retract the tool and back up until clear of the part then go back in and so on. Usually you need to go backwards to do this unless your machine has a good spindle brake that stops the spindle instantly.

B in Scotland: if you put your finger near the front of the cylinder on a .357 or .44 Magnum the blast will strip the meat off your finger to the bone in an instant. Several pics of this on You Tube.

This is why you use a Weaver Style grip on a big revolver so there is no chance of your finger getting near that junction.

Randy

[Ballistics in Scotland]

B in Scotland: if you put your finger near the front of the cylinder on a .357 or .44 Magnum the blast will strip the meat off your finger to the bone in an instant. Several pics of this on You Tube.

This is why you use a Weaver Style grip on a big revolver so there is no chance of your finger getting near that junction.

Randy

Indeed it would, but the Weaver stance is 100% successful, and keeps your hand further out of line than your face with a carbine.

[Geezer in NH]

This project will cost you an additional $200 for putting the shoulder stock on a pistol. The ATF considers a handgun as a gun to be fired with one hand.
The only time you can get away with not paying the $200 for the Tax Stamp is with gun like the Contender/ Encore that uses the same frame (receiver) for both a handgun and rifle. Also little semi-auto imported pistol that slips into a rifle stock with an existing rifle barrel in it.169642Wrong can not go rifle to handgun. Mount the over 16 inch barrel before the stock. Law is 16 inch barrel, 26 inch over all minimum

[leadman]

Looked it up on the ATF website. 26 U>S>C> 5845, 27 CFR 479.11. Ok to have a shoulder stock on a handgun as long as the barrel is over 16" and total overall length is 26" or more.
Don't know about going back the other way though except for the Contender/Encores and Galif pistol.