Awful accuracy- is this excess leading?

[Fraxinus]

Hi all,

I'd appreciate some insight, I'm trying to trouble shoot awful accuracy in a rifle. First, the details: rifle is an Armalite AR10B, chambered in 45 Raptor (wildcat, it's just a rimless 460 S & W magnum- legal for deer here in Indiana), barrel is by Satern. Up to now I've only been working up loads to test velocity & pressure. Early shooting (before any lead boolits) gave decent accuracy for informal shooting- 1-2" at 50 yards. To date, it's had about 250 rounds through it- maybe 50-70 of those lead. The lead are from the Saeco 300 gr .452 dia mold, gas checked with LBT blue soft & I'm using an alloy with just a touch of copper (.6%, got the idea from the lead alloys sub-forum), pushed to 2200 fps & sized at .452" (barrel slugged at .451").

Yesterday, I started my first benched accuracy testing. It's awful- 5-8" for a 3-shot group at 100 yards. I'm very new to casting, and most of what I cast for has been handgun. I thought that maybe I just didn't know what to look for, and that the barrel had leaded badly enough to effect accuracy. I cleaned the snot out of the barrel, shot 3 jacketed bullets, & still had awful accuracy.

This picture is after cleaning and 3 jacketed rounds. It's about the best picture I can take of the barrel- assuming you can see anything in there, what's the verdict? Is that bit of 'roughness' I see in the rifling leading? If so, is it enough to destroy accuracy to this extent?

I've looked all around google images at leading. If this is leading, it's not as bad as some but I just don't have the experience to know what's excessie.

I'd like to rule out leading first before trouble-shooting further...

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Edit for clarity: More info on the boolits, if it helps. Alloy is 6% tin, 5.3% antimony, .6% copper. This is from a calculator based on what I put into the pot. Hardness should be 15 BHN, but I don't yet have a tester to confirm. The copper was introduced from foundrytype I purchased from a member that was XFR'd to have CU. These boolits were sized/ lubed/ loaded immediately. The rounds I used for accuracy testing sat for 2 weeks or so before firing. However, during load development I know there were rounds that were shot within a day or two of casting, and I do not water drop to speed the hardening process. Adding all this in case it helps.

[oteroman]

Before you shot lead (with copper?), you got 1-2" at 50 yards, what was your 100 yard group (your benchmark reference)?

[Fraxinus]

Never tested at 100 before this weekend- the 50 yards was just function testing. I don't have a benchmark at 100, unfortunately.... at this point, accuracy is unacceptable & I'm trying to rule out simple things first

[runfiverun]

well your alloy is jacked for one.

[Edward]

BHN sounds soft for 2200 FPS ,try water dropped (easy thing to eliminate hardness question) and get a hardness tester ,mine is a Lee and it gets a lot of use/every time I cast .

[fg-machine]

I'm not going to be so fast to blame the alloy ... I think the first order of business is to slow things down a bit and start at the beginning .
2200 fps is where I'd start looking for the problem ., I would bet that if you back things off and start at 1700 fps or so you'll soon find some accuracy.

Also.. did you clean the copper fouling out before you started shooting cast ?

[Fraxinus]

I think I overloaded with information and wasn't clear- at this point there is no accuracy with either jacketed or cast. Can anyone tell if there is excess leading in the picture to cause this?

That being said, thanks all for the recommendations. The barrel is cleaned each time before switching between jacketed & lead.

[shoot-n-lead]

How are you testing for pressure...as you stated that you were?

[Fraxinus]

Measuring brass expansion just above extractor groove.

[MT Chambers]

For cast boolit accuracy with smokeless loads I usually start at around 1500 fps and go up from there.

[243winxb]

I can see lands in the photo that should work with a jacketed bullet. I see a claim of 2moa or about 2" @100 yds for accuracy. This would require a scope, shooting benchrest. Using iron sights, i would guess 4" at best, with closer to 8" being the norm. Groups are always smaller online then at the range.

[fg-machine]

I honestly can't tell anything from the picture towards the leading .
but with any antimonial alloy finding some antimony wash in the barrel is normal .
Some barrels are prone to collecting a certian amount of leading as well .

If you aren't getting any accuracy from J acketed or lead I'd stop what I was currently doing and start over from the beginning
with minimum loads and start my trouble shooting from there .

[243winxb]

Question – Can you use cast bullets in the 45 RAPTOR?
No testing has performed by the developers using cast lead bullets. There are far too many variables in lead alloy composition, lubricants, gas checks, and bullet design for the developers to endorse the use of cast lead bullets in a semi-automatic rifle. As such, we do not recommend the use of any cast bullets in the 45 RAPTOR in a semi-automatic rifle. http://www.45raptor.com/45RAPTOR/faq/

[dubber123]

If you are having accuracy issues with both cast and jacketed, I would start by looking for loose scope mounting, or a bad scope first. 2,200 with cast is plenty doable. Good luck.

[2wheelDuke]

http://www.45raptor.com/45RAPTOR/faq/

Many here see that as a challenge.

[runfiverun]

I seen nothing there that'd slow me down from using cast.
the 454 casull specifies jacketed or cast only.

if you can't get accuracy from a jacketed bullet then you got other problems to work out.
I'd get that straightened out first.

[243winxb]

Many here see that as a challenge. please buy one and report back. Ty :coffeecom

[Fraxinus]

Heh, you absolutely should buy one- and then tell me what I'm doing wrong.

Thanks for all the input, very much appreciated. I think my plan at this point is to clean the hell out of the barrel (again) & shoot a couple dozen jacketed through it & then check accuracy with jacketed again... I'll report back...

Question, only slightly off topic- 243wnxb, you made a comment about the lands looking good for jacketed. I'm assuming that means they look less good for cast? What makes you think this? Genuinely curious- I'm new to this lead thing. Only issues I had heard about with cast was with the shallower rifling of polygonal barrels.

Thanks again all!

[243winxb]

Lands-Even if the barrel is leaded, it looks like the jacketed bullet would have something to grab onto. From the photo, its impossible to tell if there is leading?? Cast will work with the right combination. Your barrel doesnt look like micro-groove rifling, so you dont have that problem. Low pressure, hard cast bullets, correct diameter, good lube, a gas check, all help. Do try to get good accuracy with jacketed first.

[Wayne Smith]

Have you measured your throat? Make a pound cast with pure - then we can talk about fit as well. Sometimes we get lucky and everything fits the first time. The rest of the time we have to go back to basics. Measuring with a micrometer gives you hard data from which to start.

[BCB]

Since the fouling in the bore appears to be copper colored (maybe the light source is giving a false appearance?) and it is after you shot 3 jacketed bullets, I guess we can assume it is copper…

Many years ago when I was first getting into shooting Contenders I discovered an interesting problem…

So here goes and this may have nothing at all to do with your leading/copper fouling problem…

I was only shooting jacketed bullets back then and when I would fire the 1st dozen or so groups from the 223 Remington, 7-30 Waters, and 30-30 Winchester Super 14” barrels, accuracy was very good…

Then, once I got really attempting to fine-tune some of the very promising reloads, accuracy would go to bottom levels and I mean absolutely absurd—at least to my standards. Definitely not as good as the initial performances…

I noticed the barrels were copper fouling to the point they almost looked orange like your picture especially at the muzzle end. I do know that part of it was some type of sheen from the powder. This I learned from articles in Handloader and others…

My combination of powders and bullets were always a ball powder as I was mostly shooting surplus then and Hornady bullets. (Let’s get one thing clean now—I am absolutely not BASHING Hornady as I use their bullets in the 3 previously mentioned cartridges when I am hunting groundhogs or deer in some instances)…

I found that by brutally cleaning the barrel with Sweets and J&B until the brush was nearly worn out after about every dozen rounds fired, I began to bring accuracy back. It took several boxes of 100 bullets to make the improvements appear. It was an expensive aspect back then as money was somewhat limited…

I did, and still do sometimes, used a steel brush. Many have opinions on these critters; I have had no problems…

I think that some new barrels, depending on manufacturer are rougher than others. T/C's barrels at that time were dreadful—again, my opinion…

Regardless, after much effort and cleaning until I was literally ready to throw the barrel in the garbage can, they eventually began to shoot acceptable…

On a side note, I seem to be having a similar problem with an Encore 308 Winchester barrel. But, it is beginning to appear, this problem is not going to be solved, at least by shooting and cleaning and shooting and cleaning and shooting and cleaning and shooting and cleaning etc.—you get the picture…

These types of problems can sure be discouraging and quite costly…

Good-luck…BCB

[243winxb]

Looking at load data (460 S&W Mag) , i dont see 55,000 psi working with lead? The Trail Boss data for the 325 gr PLAIN BASE at lower PSI / velocity may? BUT WILL THE BULLET MAKE IT OUT THE END OF THE BARREL AT SUCH LOW VELOCITY? http://www.reloadammo.com/460sw.htm Changing the title to " 45 Raptor " may get more experenced reloaders help?

[w30wcf]

At 2,200 fps a bullet should be wearing a gas check to get any decent accuracy and prevent leading.
In a straight walled case, a .06" poly disc under a plain based bullet will work almost as well.


w30wcf

[243winxb]

The lead are from the Saeco 300 gr .452 dia mold, gas checked with LBT blue soft & I'm using an alloy with just a touch of copper (.6%, got the idea from the lead alloys sub-forum), pushed to 2200 fps & sized at .452" (barrel slugged at .451").
Quote from OP. Post #1 Need to know what powder is used. Factory brass or 30-06 reworked? Are the boolits home cast? What Saeco bullet, this one? What alloy was used? http://www.redding-reloading.com/downloads/saeco6pageflyer.pdf 168692

[Walter Laich]

I've had great luck using Kroil oil to remove leading. run a wet patch through, give it overnight and clean. I ended up having to do it twice but leading was removed. Waiting was the hard part for me

[Fraxinus]

Quote from OP. Post #1 Need to know what powder is used. Factory brass or 30-06 reworked? Are the boolits home cast? What Saeco bullet, this one? What alloy was used? http://www.redding-reloading.com/downloads/saeco6pageflyer.pdf 168692

H110 powder in unfired factory brass. Yes, that is the bullet. Hornady .45 cal gas checks. Alloy is roughly 6% tin, 5% antimony, .6% copper, probably a touch of arsenic as the base was COWW before I sweetened it with foundrytype. Foundry-type that was XFR'd and happened to have Cu provides the copper. In the Cu alloy thread in the lead alloy subforum, some members were having good luck when tin%= antimony% + copper%. Happy to take advice on alloy if anyone sees a problem. Home cast.

Walter Laich- Thanks for the Kroil suggestion, I'll try that tonight. No kroil at home but I can borrow some from work.

BCB- Good info to have... the color of the barrel is definitely influenced by the lighting. I'll try to take more in natural light tonight & see if any come out. I've cleaned this barrel recently with a copper solvent, & no blue color-I assumed I was good in the copper fouling department. Regardless, I hear what you're saying- I need to try a few cycles of cleaning & only shooting jacketed & see if anything changes.

EDIT- to 243Win, load data comes from the Lyman manual as well as Hodgdon's manual.

[WILCO]

I'd appreciate some insight, I'm trying to trouble shoot awful accuracy in a rifle.

Sounds like a lot going on. Best advice I can give is to stop and go back to square one.
Starting with a scrubbed barrel and a thorough rifle once over is key. Decide what you're going to work with. Full metal jacket or cast. I'd never try to do both at once. Also, I wouldn't use FMJ as a base for accuracy with lead. Two different worlds. Good luck.

[243winxb]

XFR'd -Meaning? Has any oven heat treating/ water quenching been done to your home cast boolits? Should make them harder. I see one site lists a 21 BHN. https://www.grizzlycartridge.com/ Another has 22 BHN with 31,284 PSI to "obturate " https://www.beartoothbullets.com/faq/index.htm I think the amount of antimony your using, would make boolits harder then 21 bhr, after heat treating? This would be good for the high PSI loads. I tried the Lyman method.
: Is there anything I can do to make the bullets harder?
A: Cast bullets can be heat treated to increase their hardness providing your alloy has some antimony present. To heat treat your bullets: Cast your bullets in the normal manner, saving several scrap bullets. Size your bullets but do not lubricate them. Place several scrap bullets on a pan in your oven at 450 degrees and increase the temperature until the bullets start to melt or slump. Be sure to use an accurate oven thermometer and a pan that will not be used again for food. Once the bullets start to melt or slump, back off the temperature about 5 to 10 degrees and slide in your first batch of good bullets. Leave these in the oven for a half hour. Remove the bullets from the oven and plunge them into cool water. Allow them to cool thoroughly. When you are ready to lubricate, install a sizing die .001" larger than the one used to initially size them. This will prevent the sides of the bullets from work-softening from contact with the sizing die. Next apply gas checks if required and lubricate. These are now ready for loading.

https://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/faqs/bullet-casting.php Thats all i got, i'm not an expert. Good luck.

[blikseme300]

Have you measured your throat? Make a pound cast with pure - then we can talk about fit as well. Sometimes we get lucky and everything fits the first time. The rest of the time we have to go back to basics. Measuring with a micrometer gives you hard data from which to start.

Good advise. I read up on the barrel the OP has and it is stated that the freebore is generous by design so bore size is but one indicator.

[HangFireW8]

Measuring brass expansion just above extractor groove.

With a wildcat? This method was developed with NEW brass only.