30-30 shoulder setback

[stubbicatt]

Fellas. I recently purchased the insert for my Hornady (nee Stoney Point) comparator to measure the shoulder on the venerable 30-30. I haven't used it yet, as I haven't noodled my way through what I want to achieve with it yet.

With a bolt action rifle, with Mauser style locking lugs, one strives for a .001 to .002 shoulder setback. With a semi auto, the number increases, with some suggestions at .003 to .005 shoulder setback. The litmus test being will your bolt easily close on your resized cases.

Fast forward to the Model 94 Winchester. As I understand it, there is some springiness in the action, due to the rear locking lug arrangement, which in my view at least, suggests perhaps an approach in sizing akin to what one would use for a self loading rifle - .003 to .005" setback. The issue as I see it is, the action on my rifle in the last little bit of closing becomes rather notchy, and the locking block is beveled, so that the last ⅛" of lever travel sort of forces the locking block into battery, and forces the bolt closed, and god only knows whether the cartridge in the chamber is chambering readily or only due to the force of the action of the locking block bevel on the rear of the bolt.

Like I said, I haven't measured any fired or sized cartridges, so I have no idea of how much shoulder growth I am experiencing, so I thought I'd throw this out there for any experiences you fellas may have BEFORE working thru this. I haven't even tried chambering "as fired" empties either. Assuming I'm getting shoulder growth on firing, anybody here opine as to what sort of setback I should strive for in resizing? I would like to make this brass last a long while.

Thanks in advance for your consideration.

Regards,
Stubb.

[Tatume]

Why try to measure? Start with fired cases. Raise the ram in your press and turn the FL size die in until it touches the shell holder. Back off one full turn. Size a case and try it in your gun. You will probably feel resistance. Turn the die in 1/4 turn and repeat. When you get to where cases chamber easily, lock down the die. You will likely find that the die is back where you started, touching the shell holder.

[725]

+1 on what tatume said.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, what has been described would work perfectly. You might want to leave a little more clearance hasat the shoulder if you are likely to use the ammunition in dusty or sandy conditions.

But the clearance at the shoulder is quite different in effect, in the .30-30, from the rimless rounds that are really the cartridge comparator's reason for existence. In the latter they control the headspace, as in the .30-3 does the virtually unchangeable thickness of the rim. There can be a very large space at the shoulder before there is any bearing on safety, and a fairlo large one before accuracy or case life are much affected.

[M-Tecs]

I size to measured length for any cartridge that has a shoulder irrespective if its belted or rimmed. For a auto/lever guns I set the shoulder for .002" to 003" clearance.

[runfiverun]

you got some serious muscle tone going on if your camming the round home with the lever.
probably gonna bend something in the rifle.

I pretty much do what tatume does and the rounds seem to work in all of my 30-30's just fine.
bolt guns and lever guns both are fine with this method.

[Doc Highwall]

I do measure the fired headspace of the 30-30 Win and set the dies enough to set the shoulder back .002"-.003" and it works great. But you do have to make sure they chamber easily in your gun. The firing and cycling of cartridges is the litmus test along with the target group size.

[EDG]

With a clean chamber and ammo I use .001 on everything except an autoloader and bolt guns. I try to use bolt guns at .0000 - yes with a little drag. This is shooting at the range.

Were I to hunt then I would use about .002 to .003 and cycle everything through the chamber once to make sure. But I never hunt anything that is remotely dangerous.

Just for grins you should check your chamber and record the data. Then check factory ammo. Some that I have from PPU is only .003 shorter than a 7.65 Mauser chamber.
Other ammo may be .010 short of the chamber.

[HangFireW8]

I have the same Stoney Point tool, and just rode this horse.

The shoulder difference between factory and once fired 30/30 was .030"!

I had light firing pin strikes at .003" headspace, so I split the difference and left .014" headspace.... but, the problem may have been boolet jam, and I backed that off, too.

My current plan is to prove reliability at .014" and then creep back up towards .003". So far the first batch with a .014" shoulder and minimum jam was OK. This is still a project, not a finished product. Reliability is paramount for me as this is a hunting rifle.

[TXGunNut]

I use the comparator for .300 Savage and 35 Remington, excellent tool. I wrote the comparator length on the inside cover of my die case. 30-30 and 32 Spl work just fine for me with Tatume's method. I know better than to simply adjust the sizer die down to kiss the shell holder but it's quite often what I wind up doing.

[Hick]

I have up to 20 reloads on the same set of 30-30 brass, which I only shoot in one rifle. I NEVER full length resize and never worry about the shoulder. The 30-30 headspaces on the rim, and the brass slides in fine without applying leverage to the bolt (finger push is plenty). I periodically check my brass by sliding the brass into the chamber with my fingers (without closing the bolt to force it)-- if it slides in it is OK. I do the same with my 32 Winchester Special, where I have some cases that have 20+ reloads-- all neck sized only. If shoulder setback matters, my rifles don't know it.

[stubbicatt]

Wow. A whole lot of different advice. I must have really poorly stated my question, or really poorly described the rifle. I am not applying a 20 ton jack to close the lever on the rifle. It closes easily with normal hand strength. The last ⅛" of closure, I see the breach block sliding its bevel over the rear of the bolt to secure it in battery. Too the little detente at the rear of the bottom plate of the action has to notch into position in the receiver, to hold everything closed. All of this happens in the last little bit of lever travel, at the point where there is the least amount of compound leverage in the cycle, and the "feel" of the thing is compromised by all of this notchiness going on.

It is this performance which makes me wonder whether the "feel" of a cartridge in the chamber which may have a long shoulder would be diminished, as compared to a bolt actioned rifle where the closure of the bolt on a "long" cartridge is noticeable to the shooter.

Thanks fellas. I'll strive for the .003" and see how it works. The PMA Tools lock ring should help in arriving at a consistent set back.

Regards,
Stubb.

[Char-Gar]

Why try to measure? Start with fired cases. Raise the ram in your press and turn the FL size die in until it touches the shell holder. Back off one full turn. Size a case and try it in your gun. You will probably feel resistance. Turn the die in 1/4 turn and repeat. When you get to where cases chamber easily, lock down the die. You will likely find that the die is back where you started, touching the shell holder.

Yea, money spent of gagets is money wasted. Do as above and life will be good. Every action and chamber are different even on the same make and model. Cases should be fitted to the individual rifle and the above work just find.

Sell that useless thing on Ebay and get some of you money back. There is bound to be some sap who will buy it, thinking they can gadget and gizmo their way to reloading success. Generations of reloaders did a great job before somebody decided to market this new shiney thing as the nee plus ultra and a needful thing.

[M-Tecs]

Dies are 7/8 x 14. One revolution is .0714" so a 1/4 turn is .01785".

Each to his own but I much prefer things adjusted to a known dimension not a guess.

Five years ago you had a hard time selling once fired 30-30 brass. Now if you can find it a quarter a round sells very well.

When I have a chamber reamer ground if it's a belted or rimmed case I have a custom headspace gauge ground that locates on the shoulder not the SAAMI spec. rim or belt.

I record the actual headspace for each chamber. When loading for different chambers just set the die for the clearance you want for that chamber. Actual measurements as opposed to a guess. What a novel idea.

I have both Hornady (Stoney Point) comparators and case mics (Mo's and RCBS). Both work but I prefer the case mic types. Either way they are one of the most useful tools I own.

http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-equipment/measuring-tools/case-gauges-headspace-tools/rcbs-precision-mic-cartridge-headspace-tool-prod33476.aspx

The Mo's is a forerunner to RCBS. The Mo's is no longer made. I purchased a 308 at Camp Perry in the early 90's. After using it and seeing how usefully it was I purchased the 223 & 30/06.

What all these gauges tell you are several things. First, the relative length of an unfired cartridge, and then the increased length of the fired case. With this info, and either minute sizing die adjustment (or shimming) or Redding Competition Shell holders the resized case length can be varied to fit individual chambers. Most match shooter try to fit a resized case to about .002" smaller than their chamber. This is much more difficult to do without a case micrometer or comparator.

[Tatume]

Each to his own but I much prefer things adjusted to a known dimension, not a guess.

There are two basic types of measurements, direct and indirect. What you are calling a "guess" is a direct measurement. Your choice is the indirect measurement.

Direct measurement means to compare the measured object directly to another object. If I want to drill two bolt holes through a pair of objects, I can drill one hole, put in a bolt, and use the other initial hole to locate the second hole for the other bolt.

Indirect measurement means to compare the two objects to a third object, such as a ruler, and transfer the dimensions from one object to the other. In the example above, I could drill one hole, measure the distance needed to the other hole, make a mark and drill.

Either way works just fine, although in the direct measurement method the distance will not be known.

Neither is a guess.

[M-Tecs]

There are two basic types of measurements, direct and indirect. What you are calling a "guess" is a direct measurement. Your choice is the indirect measurement.

Direct measurement means to compare the measured object directly to another object. If I want to drill two bolt holes through a pair of objects, I can drill one hole, put in a bolt, and use the other initial hole to locate the second hole for the other bolt.

Indirect measurement means to compare the two objects to a third object, such as a ruler, and transfer the dimensions from one object to the other. In the example above, I could drill one hole, measure the distance needed to the other hole, make a mark and drill.

Either way works just fine, although in the direct measurement method the distance will not be known.

Neither is a guess.

Actual no. A direct measure is measuring the part you want to measure with a rule, micrometer, tape measure etc. A good example would be measuring how much a light pole sticks out of the ground. A direct measurement would be to climb to the top and measure it with a tape measure. An indirect measurement would be to stand a measured distance away from the pole and determine the angle from the ground to the top of the pole than using trig you can calculate the actual height.


Why try to measure? Start with fired cases. Raise the ram in your press and turn the FL size die in until it touches the shell holder. Back off one full turn. Size a case and try it in your gun. You will probably feel resistance. Turn the die in 1/4 turn and repeat. When you get to where cases chamber easily, lock down the die. You will likely find that the die is back where you started, touching the shell holder.

At a 1/4 turn you can be off as much as .018".

[Char-Gar]

Oh jeeeze, a couple of engineering types slugging it out over terminology.

[singleshot]

Oh jeeeze, a couple of engineering types slugging it out over terminology.
You really had to see that coming...I was thinking of jumping in myself until I saw your post. :kidding:

[M-Tecs]

The OP asked very specific questions about his Hornady (Stoney Point) comparator and what sort of setback he should strive for in resizing. Some posters gave their opinions but didn't address any of the OP's specific questions. I don't see any place were the OP's asks if he should sell it on eBay or just crank the die until the bolt easily closes on a resized case.


Fellas. I recently purchased the insert for my Hornady (nee Stoney Point) comparator to measure the shoulder on the venerable 30-30. I haven't used it yet, as I haven't noodled my way through what I want to achieve with it yet.

With a bolt action rifle, with Mauser style locking lugs, one strives for a .001 to .002 shoulder setback. With a semi auto, the number increases, with some suggestions at .003 to .005 shoulder setback. The litmus test being will your bolt easily close on your resized cases.

Fast forward to the Model 94 Winchester. As I understand it, there is some springiness in the action, due to the rear locking lug arrangement, which in my view at least, suggests perhaps an approach in sizing akin to what one would use for a self loading rifle - .003 to .005" setback. The issue as I see it is, the action on my rifle in the last little bit of closing becomes rather notchy, and the locking block is beveled, so that the last ⅛" of lever travel sort of forces the locking block into battery, and forces the bolt closed, and god only knows whether the cartridge in the chamber is chambering readily or only due to the force of the action of the locking block bevel on the rear of the bolt.

Like I said, I haven't measured any fired or sized cartridges, so I have no idea of how much shoulder growth I am experiencing, so I thought I'd throw this out there for any experiences you fellas may have BEFORE working thru this. I haven't even tried chambering "as fired" empties either. Assuming I'm getting shoulder growth on firing, anybody here opine as to what sort of setback I should strive for in resizing? I would like to make this brass last a long while.

Thanks in advance for your consideration.

Regards,
Stubb.

[HangFireW8]

Yea, money spent of gagets is money wasted. Do as above and life will be good. Every action and chamber are different even on the same make and model. Cases should be fitted to the individual rifle and the above work just find.

Sell that useless thing on Ebay and get some of you money back. There is bound to be some sap who will buy it, thinking they can gadget and gizmo their way to reloading success. Generations of reloaders did a great job before somebody decided to market this new shiney thing as the nee plus ultra and a needful thing.

Really bad advice. Really, really, really bad advice. Just my opinion, you know, but REALLY BAD ADVICE.

Without my Stoney Point case comparator, shooting my old military rifles would be like Russian Roulette. With it, as safe as any modern rifle.

Without my Stoney Point case comparator, I would have never sorted out how to properly form cases in my custom reamer tight-necked 257 Ackley Improved 40 degree. (Talk to me first if anyone is considering an Ackley with a tight neck.)

Without my Stoney Point case comparator, my brass life would be constantly cut short by case head separations. I know, because before I got it, they were.

Without my Stoney Point case comparator, I wouldn't know springy brass from compliant brass, and I would think I'm making case headspace adjustments, when I'm not.

If you want to play by-gosh and by-golly with your brass, your rifles and your eyesight, more power too you! But, not me. My case comparator comes out every time I adjust a sizing die, and it occupies a place of honor right beside the RCBS Case Master, another tool that people who suffer "the occasional flier" and shoot only 3-5 shot groups don't own.

I know, I know, a bunch of people have reloaded for a bizillion years without either too. They also never advanced beyond a certain point in their accuracy and brass life, either.

Just my opinion.

[Doc Highwall]

The Stoney Point tool works, without it you are just guessing with lots of trial and error. As mentioned the course thread pitch of 14 threads per inch makes adjustment critical in order to get long case life and accurate loads.
Just for ease of explaining it say the travel for one turn is rounded to .072",
1/2 turn = .036"
1/4 turn = .018"
1/8 turn = .009"
1/16 turn = .0045"
1/32 turn = ..0023"
As you can see you only need a very small amount of turning the die to make a difference in the headspace.

[HangFireW8]

Thanks, Doc. I'm going to print that out and put it somewhere near my sizing press.

[stubbicatt]

Yea, money spent of gagets is money wasted. Do as above and life will be good. Every action and chamber are different even on the same make and model. Cases should be fitted to the individual rifle and the above work just find.

Sell that useless thing on Ebay and get some of you money back. There is bound to be some sap who will buy it, thinking they can gadget and gizmo their way to reloading success. Generations of reloaders did a great job before somebody decided to market this new shiney thing as the nee plus ultra and a needful thing.

Wow, CharGar, let me guess... you smoke cigarettes, and stuff the filters in your ears for earplugs at the range, right? No sense in buying ear protection! Sell those useless ear muffs on Ebay! No sense in buying carbide dies for straight walled pistol ammunition either, is there? A micrometer? Dial caliper? Pshaw! Who needs 'em? Just use a trusty wooden yardstick, right? Indoor plumbing? Just dig a hole in the back yard. No need for toothbrush, just gouge the deposits off your teeth with a thumbnail...

Thanks to the rest of you who offered helpful advice.

Stubb, --out.

[HangFireW8]

You're welcome.

lol I think the OP just "dropped the mike".

[barrabruce]

I just partially neck size and anneal my cases every now and again.

Or use a die that just resizes the necks a minimum amount.

That and using a nice milder load and not stuffing as much powder in as you can will greatly improve your case life.
I only full length size just enough to get the case back into the chamber after it has become too well formed to the chamber after many rounds.
I haven't measured the shoulder length but it may take a few rounds for your brass to form properly anyway to your chamber.

[Doc Highwall]

Even cases that are only neck sized have to have the shoulder bumped back if they are shot enough. Being able to measure the head space of the cartridges that were fired in your gun, and comparing it to a sized case that you just re-sized, and to know for a fact how much you bumped the shoulder back is valuable information.

For a screws travel distance per one revolution, divide 1 by the thread pitch in inches.

1/14 = .0714" travel per one revolution, round to .072 to make it easy.
1/32 = .03125" travel per one revolution, round to .032 to make it easy.
1/40 = .025" which is what micrometers use.

[barrabruce]

If you divide that 72 Thou for 1 turn by 12 for clock hands then you are down to 6 thou increments.
Just saying.
If you double tap the case when sizing then you should get a more uniform set back or size allowing the brass to squeezed down more bettera

[HangFireW8]

Even cases that are only neck sized have to have the shoulder bumped back if they are shot enough. Being able to measure the head space of the cartridges that were fired in your gun, and comparing it to a sized case that you just re-sized, and to know for a fact how much you bumped the shoulder back is valuable information.

This is a key point. Often an old case will spring-back .002" to .003", but will give when pressed more than that.

If you're trying to run .001" under headspace size on a poor leverage gun (like a '94 lever), that spring-back can be a problem.

I don't have to run all my hunting loads through my rifle to know they'll fit. My instruments tell me.

[44man]

Why try to measure? Start with fired cases. Raise the ram in your press and turn the FL size die in until it touches the shell holder. Back off one full turn. Size a case and try it in your gun. You will probably feel resistance. Turn the die in 1/4 turn and repeat. When you get to where cases chamber easily, lock down the die. You will likely find that the die is back where you started, touching the shell holder.
I go here. I set dies for the Marlin I have but my rounds will not close a 94 a friend has so I FL for him. No measurements or numbers.
The 30-30 will grow brass too so trimming should not be overlooked.
Just fit to the gun and toss the measuring. Even BR shooters just fit.

[HangFireW8]

Lol shoulder sizing advise from two primarily straight walled revolver shooters.

Why anyone would want to deny themselves knowledge of their guns and loads, versus a few dollars for a very versatile tool, I have no idea.

[Groo]

Groo here
+1 to 44 man
My question is , just what do you want?
Is this a target gun or a hunting gun?
If targets, OK , custom fit every thing.
If a hunting gun , for normal game OK but I think your "gilding the lilly."
If you are using for it defense against things that bite back or "other", then reliable function is required.
I full length size ALL rimed rounds to make sure of feed and function, but will custom fit rimless fit if I "need" that much accuracy.

[M-Tecs]

Why anyone would want to deny themselves knowledge of their guns and loads, versus a few dollars for a very versatile tool, I have no idea.

I have often asked myself that question. I have no answer. I guess it's because 90% of the times minimal effort and minimal knowledge works OK. Maybe it's because human nature is that if it works OK in one application it must work equally as well in all applications. I agree that following the die manufactures minimal effort and minimal knowledge adjustment procedures works OK most of the time, but it still leaves you guessing if your adjustment setting is optimal.

In 1974 at the age of 14 I purchased a TC Contender in 357 Herrett. I rapidly learned the difference between safe die adjustments (following die manufactures instructions) and optimal die adjustment. 357 Herrett brass is fair amount of work to trim and form. Safe die adjustment gave me very limited case life. Optimal die adjustment gave me very good case life. Since I was only loading for one barrel the feel method for worked well enough. When I purchased a second barrel in 357 Herrett it required different shoulder set back so I made my own gauge.

Later as a machinist/tool maker I designed and made better gauges. When I first saw Mo's gauge at Camp Perry I like that better than my design so I purchased one (RCBS later improved Mo's design). I currently use a mixture of my designs, MO's, RCBS and the Stoney Point gauges depending on application.

When I teach new reloaders getting them to understand the concepts of actual headspace and its effects and inspections methods is one of the most important aspects of understanding reloading. Not difficult at all and its even more so today when you can purchase the Hornady http://www.midwayusa.com/product/479704/hornady-lock-n-load-headspace-gage-5-bushing-set-with-comparator system of under $40.00.

[HangFireW8]

Groo here
+1 to 44 man
My question is , just what do you want?
Is this a target gun or a hunting gun?
If targets, OK , custom fit every thing.
If a hunting gun , for normal game OK but I think your "gilding the lilly."
If you are using for it defense against things that bite back or "other", then reliable function is required.
I full length size ALL rimed rounds to make sure of feed and function, but will custom fit rimless fit if I "need" that much accuracy.

Groo, the OP was clear about what he wanted, please read the first post. Unfortunately, people who are not equipped to answer the question, because they lack the proper equipment to know the answer, feel the need to tell the OP to move backwards in his knowledge of his guns and ammo. No, counting die turns doesn't count as knowing, because of variable springback.

Your "I full length size ALL rimed" (sic) "rounds to make sure of feed and function" is emblematic of this b'gosh and b'golly school of head-in-the-sand reloading. If you wish suffer from short case life and rude surprises when you introducing a new gun to the stable, go right ahead, but please don't foist it off on others. If you read back in the thread, the OP has already rejected the idea of giving up his equipment, and the knowledge of his guns and ammo it brings, in favor of rules of thumb.

[HangFireW8]

The 30-30 will grow brass too so trimming should not be overlooked.
Just fit to the gun and toss the measuring. Even BR shooters just fit.

30-30 won't grow so much if you stop exercising the shoulder so much, and minimally resize to a known amount.

Also, I've shot too many matches (and read too much Precision Shooting) to believe that last line. Perhaps a newbie might buy that one.

[M-Tecs]

HangFireW8 I think you will get a kick out of reading this thread. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?301200-Understanding-Press-Cam-Over&p=3567835#post3567835

[HangFireW8]

HangFireW8 I think you will get a kick out of reading this thread. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?301200-Understanding-Press-Cam-Over&p=3567835#post3567835


Wow.

Maybe it gets back to Gun Writers (spit) who echo the old "for hunting ammo, semi's and levers always full length resize" mantra. When the vendor sponsor is providing the rifle and ammo/brass, I guess brass life takes a back seat to a clear simple one-size-fits-all message that all writers seem to shoot for- if you follow my simple advise, all will be well.

Problem is, headspace is NOT a simple topic, and many gun writers (as has been proven) don't fully understand it. If you are willing to sacrifice brass life, ignorance is bliss.

[44man]

30-30 won't grow so much if you stop exercising the shoulder so much, and minimally resize to a known amount.

Also, I've shot too many matches (and read too much Precision Shooting) to believe that last line. Perhaps a newbie might buy that one.
You did not read me, I size just enough to chamber. A little resistance to closing the lever. I load the Marlin like a BR rifle and even turn necks for no run out. I measure length and run out but shoulders are fit by feel. Too much spring in the rear bolt lock up. Cases will grow.
The WW 94 my friend has will not close with my Marlin loads so his gun just has a different chamber.
A question for you, does the Marlin bolt have more spring then the WW bolt?

[HangFireW8]

I have both but in different calibers and my Marlins are straightwalls, so I cannot answer your question from my experience. From what I read, the Win 94 action has more springiness.

Sorry I did not read you correctly.

[John Taylor]

I don't know about springiness in a 94 but I do know that not all 94s have the same head space. The majority of 94's that come in have more head space than SAAMI specs for a no go gauge, action closes easy on the gauge. I have seen some with over .025" head space and still being shot. Strange thing is the shoulder is not pushed forward on many but the primer backs out to touch the bolt face after the firing pin pushes the cartridge all the way into the chamber. As for the camming action of the locking lug, as stated before, you would need to be very strong to close the action if the cartridge shoulder is to long. More than likely the lever would bend first. Wisner's sells thicker locking lugs for the 94 to take up head space in .005",.010" and .015" thicker. May seem strange but the Winchester may be stronger than the Marlin in the lock up. The side ejection on the marlin leaves less metal on the right side. I had one come in several years back that had broke on the right side down through the loading gate cut.
Getting back to the original question, it is always good to know where the shoulder is on bottle neck cartridges. I have check several rifle using layout die painted on the cartridge to see where things get tight. I get some people new to reloading that ask why there reloads do not fit the gun, thinking there is something wrong with the gun. Then there is the guy who has a friend in the military that brings him a bunch of once fired brass in 308 and the guy tries to reload it for his rifle and finds it won't work well, turns out it was fired in a machine gun.

[Scharfschuetze]

I would like to make this brass last a long while.

I have two old Marlins (both pre-1905) in 30/30. They both have rather excessive head space. If that is due to springy actions (I doubt it) or due to the specs they were chambered for (most likely) I don't know. What I do know is that with a good case measuring tool (Mo's are my favorite) one can tie down the issue ricky tick and load the case to the rifle for very long case life. One of the fastest ways to wear out a case and get an incipient case separation is to continually set the shoulder back while sizing and then blowing it forward again when firing. That applies to rimless, rimmed or belted cases equally.

Get the proper tools, keep good records and make good ammo. Good case life will follow along naturally. Hopefully your FL die and your chamber dimensions are close enough that you can just size and go; but you'll never know unless you can properly measure fired v. sized cases.

[Foggy1111]

I developed those Stoney Point tools back "in the day". First the OAL Gauge and Modified Cases, then the Bullet Comparator and inserts....and then the Headspace Gauges....and finally the Rim-thickenss gauges for rimfire ammo.. Now......those products are all made by Horandy whom is doing a great job from what I understand....but made much the way Stoney Point made 'em. Pretty simple, and straight forward concepts and easy to use for those seeking improved loads and accuracy.

The Headspace Gauges came about when I realized that most of the bottleneck cases made at that time, had standard SAMMI "datum lines" dimensions called out on the shoulders of those cases that were meant to measure chambers and cases. Only a few dimensions actually.. At this point in time....most of these dimensions and proper sizing were pretty much left to the imagination....as nobody was able to measure such things as a datum line (some arbitrary point on the shoulder) to the case head. This gauge resolved that point.

So......I set out to do this via a simple set of gauges. Are they perfect for anyone and everybody? I suppose not. But they can and do separate differences in fired and unfired cases from one another, in order to set up dies, and a host of other things. Are they the "end all" in case size determinations? Maybe....maybe not. Some of these things are quite elusive. So many variables exist and some were not able to be even discussed until this (or other) gauges came to be.

Still, at the end of the day, these gauges will give you good ideas on case dimentional changes and the ability to re-size your cases to property fit the chambers of your guns. I'm pretty proud of what these products are able to provide for the avid reloader, and I think this product provides more insight than what was / is available in the past. Some like smoke and mirrors......some like facts and data. I prefer the latter. :)

[indian joe]

Fellas. I recently purchased the insert for my Hornady (nee Stoney Point) comparator to measure the shoulder on the venerable 30-30. I haven't used it yet, as I haven't noodled my way through what I want to achieve with it yet.

With a bolt action rifle, with Mauser style locking lugs, one strives for a .001 to .002 shoulder setback. With a semi auto, the number increases, with some suggestions at .003 to .005 shoulder setback. The litmus test being will your bolt easily close on your resized cases.

Fast forward to the Model 94 Winchester. As I understand it, there is some springiness in the action, due to the rear locking lug arrangement, which in my view at least, suggests perhaps an approach in sizing akin to what one would use for a self loading rifle - .003 to .005" setback. The issue as I see it is, the action on my rifle in the last little bit of closing becomes rather notchy, and the locking block is beveled, so that the last ⅛" of lever travel sort of forces the locking block into battery, and forces the bolt closed, and god only knows whether the cartridge in the chamber is chambering readily or only due to the force of the action of the locking block bevel on the rear of the bolt.

Like I said, I haven't measured any fired or sized cartridges, so I have no idea of how much shoulder growth I am experiencing, so I thought I'd throw this out there for any experiences you fellas may have BEFORE working thru this. I haven't even tried chambering "as fired" empties either. Assuming I'm getting shoulder growth on firing, anybody here opine as to what sort of setback I should strive for in resizing? I would like to make this brass last a long while.

Thanks in advance for your consideration.

Regards,
Stubb.

First off is it just a clunky action OR are the rounds tight ? Test it ! cycle it empty, cycle it with a factory round, cycle it with a fired case.
If its stiff on your fired cases (proly but need to make sure) then set your size die up clear of the case on full stroke of the ram then just slow and careful adjust the die until the fired case JUST chambers without excess effort
Things that bring us undone here ......case body swollen?......neck swollen from an oversize boolit?....... bump on the forward part of the neck from crimping? ----those last two are not cured by FL sizing the empty case .....
Use a marker pen on the round to figure out where its sticking

30/30 brass is cheap, you can just go ahead and full resize everything ?

[indian joe]

ahhhhhhhh !!! cant believe I fell in that hole - 2016 post - that one got a way !!!

[HangFireW8]

Foggy1111,

Thanks for developing those gages. I still use my Stoney Points every time I reload bottleneck cases.

John, 2 years too late, but no surprise on the 94 levers with backed out primers. All primers back out on firing. It takes pressure in the 40-50k and up range to stretch the case enough to reseat it.

[ScotMc]

Thank you all for posting great information. I have used the head space gauges with good results for some of my rifles. I have a custom 7X57 AI that I used the gauge to check 06 cases run through a RCBS trim form die when I first got the gun. Put me in the ball park with 06 cases. I have found that using the trial and error method of chambering a sized case works better for the 7X57 since it a custom gun. I like this forum for the wide area of expertise on different reloading areas and the "get e'r done attitude here".