Loading the .33 Winchester

[Old-Win]

I bought a nice 1886 in .33 Winchester and am shooting gas checked bullets but having a heck of a time getting it to shoot any better than 6"-7" inch groups at a hundred yards. I have both the RCBS mold and a Lyman mold 338320 but one isn't any better than the other. I've tried up to 35 grs of 3031 and 4064 with no luck. This should give me velocities around 1700-1750 fps. Should I try pushing it faster? I haven't been crimping much and am wondering if that may help. Do any of you have a pet load that seems to work? Any ideas? Thanks. Bob

[Blackwater]

Inaccuracy can come from a variety of sources. Bullets might not be quite up to snuff (casting consistent bullets IS a challenge!), lube may not work for your application and you might need to try another several to see which works best for your application and the pressures you're running, and you may simply have not found the right powder yet that works best for your gun. Then there's bore condition, primers, firing pin spring strength - the list could go on nearly endlessly.

Cast can be even more demanding than jacketed to get to shoot those great groups that allow us to place our shots precisely on game or targets, and some guns just take more workup than others. If the bore's good in your rifle (?), and the bore's a consistent diameter all the way down the length of it, it ought to shoot significantly better than that.

Finding out what the problem is will take more info than you've given us, though. What alloy are you using. Have you weighed them to see they're consistent? Do any have "wrinkles" in them? What size are you sizing them to, and have you slugged your bore to see what its diameter is?

A lot of guys can help you here, but we need more info in order to give decent recommendations for your next step.

[Chill Wills]

Old-Win I shoot a '86 in 33 Winchester. Mine had (has) a dark bore but fair rifling. What is yours like?
Have you shot Jacketed loads in it to see what that does?

I got mine shooting well but it took some messing around.
Maybe we can come up with something.
You will have to do a little checking and pass on some more info.

[Old-Win]

Thanks Michael. The bore is near mint, I've checked the crown, it's great. The first bullets I tried were from the Bullshop. RCBS 57943 sized .340" but can't remember his lube name. Second bullet was cast in a Lyman 338320 mold, in Lyman #2 alloy. Hornady gas checks sized .338". Jamison brass and Javelina lube. Both bullets weigh in a little over 200 grains.
I shot 50 rds with that lube Saturday at a levergun silhouette match with zero leading. These bullets were loaded with 33 grs of 3031 from an old Lyman manual giving about 1700 fps. Terrible vertical problems at 300 yds. Back to the range yesterday and increased the powder wt to 35 gr which still produced the 6-7" groups. I tried several with the mag tube on the sticks and also off the forearm and none seemed to make difference.
The rifle is set up with a Lyman 17 front sight with an aperture and a PU Walker style mid-range sight on the rear.
I haven't shot any jacketed in it but probably should. Found 1 box of 20 for $80 at a gun show so passed on them.
I think these rifles have a 10" twist so was wondering about velocity. Bob

[missionary5155]

Greetings Old Win
Another 33 Win shooter here. Mine is about a 1923...
Are you full length sizing your brass ? If so stop doing it. Chambers on these can be very large. Take a fired case and see if it will rechamber with no more than a snag entry. If it just slips in or has little resistance try just neck sizing. 33 Win may all have fat chambers.
The .340 cast diameter is good. Least mine will chamber fatter but no accuracy gain. Take a fired case, knock out the fired primer with a primer tool that will not resize the case and see if that .340 diameter will slip fit into the case. I will not be surprised if it does. if there is slight resistance that will be good. No resistance neck size that case about 1/8 inch. Bell the move a touch so the cast will enter. Now you want to seat the cast long. What ever the book says is OAL add .30. See if that will chamber. Did that push the cast into the case. If so I would add .010 to that length and try that OAL. If the cast was not pushed into the case add .10 and try again. Hopefully you do not have this issue.
This was what I found on my 33. It takes time. It takes work. But your rifle should easily shoot groups half that size.
Mike inPeru
Take a cast and place it in a fired case.. does it just slip in no resistance ?

[Old-Win]

Mike, I noticed right away that these 86's have generous chambers and so far, I have just been neck sizing. I tried the RCBS bullet out quite a ways. Do you have more success with a certain bullet and powder?
It seems that all I can find for a sizing die is in .338" and no .339" or .340" are available. I know that when I first started shooting BPCR, there was a guy that could hone dies to your size but can't remember his name.
Bob

[missionary5155]

Howdy Bob
Sizing dies... I think he has retired but there were a few others.. Search down through the SPONSERS in Swapping and Selling. Thinking Lathesmith does this. He is down in south Indiana.
I opened my own sizer to .340 using a wood dowel and 400 grit wet / dry metal paper. When the sizer at a bit over .339 switched to 600 grit. Place a rag on your upper leg and with the dowel wrapped with the paper inside the die roll it up and down your leg like a rolling pin. Takes about 10 minutes. But check it every minute until you get an idea how fast it is cutting. Some sizer dies are harder.
I am in Peru right now and away from my loading info to give you some exact figures. NOE has several molds in .340 that fit this caliber. Bought a NOE 340-224 RF to try when I get north again this summer.
Sounds like that RCBS cast has a thin nose. Might want to mike it.
Mike in Peru

[Chill Wills]

Old-Win, I think "Mike in Peru" is giving great advice. I am not sure I have much to offer.

My rifle has more throat to seat bullets out than can be loaded through the mag and up the lifter. I am not sure why Win thought this rifle needed so much room ahead of the chamber. So my rifle can be a little more accurate single loaded with long cartridges than is with bullets seated for repeater but really not much difference.
Because of the poor accuracy I had early on, I put 8 or 10 LBT Firelap type bullets through the barrel which maybe slicked it up a little and I have a 338 paperpatch mold for another rifle and I shot a bunch of those. The bore looked better, and I may or may not have helped the accuracy but I am not too sure because at the same time I worked on loads.

With barrel sights and good loads I have a 3+ MOA 100y rifle and my best cast loads for Lever silhouette matches using a tang sight might regularly shoot 2+ MOA @ 200 meters.

Is your rifle the shotgun butt, half mag, rapid taper round barrel? Mine is and I would really like to have the full mag, oct barrel for lever silhouette.

I have put a few hundred jacket rounds through the rifle and used them for elk hunting as well as used the paper patch bullet cast in 20-1 lead-tin. The later is a good hunting bullet. It is a pointed bullet at 235 grains and I load them and then trim the nose on a jig I made on the tablesaw of to make flat point fit for a lever rifle. They end up about about 220 grains. I also have the Lyman in flat point and had the same mold with a hollow point pin. That one is about useless. The RCBS casts about 215grs and the regular Lyman about 190grs.

You can also cut the Lee .388 bullet flat. I have but with out putting in too much work on it I stopped trying to make that bullet shoot well.

What are you doing for cases?

I have not shot this rifle much the last few years. Three - or four years ago I loaned some molds, dies, sizing equipment and other stuff for the 348 Winchester and the 33 Winchester to our friend Mike V. to write a comparison piece on the two rifles. I have not seen it published yet....

-Michael Rix Hmmm, sorry about the additional pictures. They got in and I cannot remove them. The codes do not even show up to delete them.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Thanks Michael. The bore is near mint, I've checked the crown, it's great. The first bullets I tried were from the Bullshop. RCBS 57943 sized .340" but can't remember his lube name. Second bullet was cast in a Lyman 338320 mold, in Lyman #2 alloy. Hornady gas checks sized .338". Jamison brass and Javelina lube. Both bullets weigh in a little over 200 grains.
I shot 50 rds with that lube Saturday at a levergun silhouette match with zero leading. These bullets were loaded with 33 grs of 3031 from an old Lyman manual giving about 1700 fps. Terrible vertical problems at 300 yds. Back to the range yesterday and increased the powder wt to 35 gr which still produced the 6-7" groups. I tried several with the mag tube on the sticks and also off the forearm and none seemed to make difference.
The rifle is set up with a Lyman 17 front sight with an aperture and a PU Walker style mid-range sight on the rear.
I haven't shot any jacketed in it but probably should. Found 1 box of 20 for $80 at a gun show so passed on them.
I think these rifles have a 10" twist so was wondering about velocity. Bob

Do you mean those groups are conspicuously worse in a vertical direction than horizontal? That would most likely point at the rifle rather than the bullet or loading practices. It might be worth removing the forend and magazine altogether and trying accuracy that way, possibly resting the barrel on a soft cushion near its point of balance.

Do you know for sure the rifle started its life as a .33? If it was another caliber it could have been that someone rebored and got the chamber misaligned, but you can't get an 86 small than .33. That leaves the possibility that it has been badly drilled and relined, even if someone managed an invisible join at the muzzle.

It might be worth cutting some strips of thin aluminium or steel shim, and seeing if you get equal clearance between the locking lugs and the front and rear edges of their recesses in the receiver and bolt.

[Old-Win]

I looked for a couple of years to find a decent rifle and settled on a shotgun butt with a full length magazine to get a little more weight up front. There is no evidence of anybody monkeying with the chamber. It looks like this will be a full summer project. I don't know why it doesn't shoot any better? I had a Marlin 36 that shot great and like a dummy, sold it and still have a Browning 71 that shoots well with just a little bit of fooling but wanted something I could put a tang sight on.
I guess my next step will be to hone or find a larger bullet sizing die at around .339" or .340" and then start extending the bullets out farther. I'm surprised that the Lyman bullet doesn't shoot better as it looks like that mold was designed for the 86 Winchester. Will update with results.
What velocities are you guys pushing your bullets? Bob

[missionary5155]

Good evening
Am very happy with 2200 fps. Would be even happier if they all would cloverleaf. But my rifle is a bit ornry also. At 1800 fps it shoots 2.5 inches and maybe closer to two inches. On corn crunchers that would be plenty with a 220-250 grainer. ILLinois does not yet trust us with center fire rifles. Up the velocity to 2000 and it opens to 4 inches. At 2200 it is a minute of white tail . I would use it at 50 yards.
I do use the slowest powder on the shelf to ease the cast into motion. Have not tried 2400 or other powders at that speed but maybe this time. Just maybe this caliber and brass configuration need a fast hard kick on the cast base..
And then there is the paper patch option. Just have not had enough time yet to wrassle it out.
Mike in Peru

[JFE]

Assuming the bullets are cast correctly, perhaps try some hand lubed "as cast" bullets and only use the lubesizer to attach the GC, leaving most of the bullet unsized. This assumes that your rifle will chamber and cycle cases with the "as cast" diameter bullets.

If the rifle has large chamber dimensions and throat, when you neck size your cases leave the last 1/8" or so at the bottom of the neck unsized. The unsized portion of the neck would then act as a spigot and aid in centralizing the bullet to the bore.