Ruger No. 1 with Case Hardened action

[ticket machine]

Finally had a Ruger No. 1 in .45-70 treated to a color case hardening process. Done by a gunsmithing school here in NC and I was very pleased with the results. 168446168447168448168449Have some other rifles I may have done like a 1885 Hi-Wall

[historicfirearms]

That's pretty! What's the red dot on the bottom of the loading lever?

[buckwheatpaul]

That is beautiful...like historicfireams...what is the red dot?

[oldred]

This is very interesting and was the subject of a different thread, since the traditional pack method of color casing will make through hardening alloy steel such as 4140, 4150, etc brittle and weak and the No. 1 is made from those alloys I am curious as to what methods they use? I know Turnbull has a method for doing these types of alloys but their method is a guarded secret they won't share, will these folks be willing to share their methods with us? I have several 4140 alloy parts I would like to color case but I am not willing to trade strength for looks so the pack method is out and the chemical stain faux coloring just don't look right to me.

[NSB]

I have a Browning Low Wall with "case coloring" on it and it looks almost exactly like that. Their process (Browning/Miroku) involves using hot oils to add the color. It's not truly case color hardening.....still, it has a nice look. I have a couple of Turnbull guns and it looks a lot different. Placed side by side it's really easy to see the difference. I wasn't aware that Turnbull's process was a closely guarded secret. He discussed it with me when I took the guns in and said it was a bone charcoal process similar to what was used "back in the day". Some people don't like CCH, but I'm pretty partial to it myself. Nice looking gun. Like everyone else, what's the red dot for?

[oldred]

I wasn't aware that Turnbull's process was a closely guarded secret. He discussed it with me when I took the guns in and said it was a bone charcoal process similar to what was used "back in the day".

That's true and is the well known process for low carbon steels or alloys such as the 8620 commonly used in receivers, the problem starts when the stronger CM alloys like 4140 and 4150 like used in Rugers are color cased, that's why the hot oil process you described was used on the Low Wall and why Ruger used the chemically applied faux color case on the Vaquero. Turnbull is indeed secretive of their alloy coloring process but whatever they do it can't be the traditional bone charcoal pack method normally used, that would leave those through hardening alloy receivers somewhat brittle and more prone to cracking for two reasons. First the addition of carbon a few thousandths deep at the surface would make that type alloy prone to cracks but the real problem is that these alloys absolutely MUST be tempered, or drawn, after hardening to restore the ductility otherwise they become much too hard inside leaving them somewhat brittle and thus weaker. Low carbon or other steels such as 8620 do not harden all the way through like the CM alloys such as 4140 and 4150 so the color destroying tempering step is not required like it is for the through hardening steels. Even though coloring can be achieved on these alloys by this traditional method the reheating to temper would destroy the color and that tempering step is a necessity to fully restore the strength.

I have heard a theory that they do an induction heating type process that heats the part locally on the surface and does so quickly enough to keep the heat from harming the interior metal, this same process is done industrially to spot harden through hardening alloys leaving a localized hardening only similar to what traditional case hardening does over the entire part. That process can be used to surface harden areas of these alloys but it does not produce any colors so if Turnbull does some variation of that process they have obviously developed another step that produces the coloring effect. No doubt the traditional method will color these alloys but it does so at the cost of giving up a certain degree of the strength these alloys are known for.

[rking22]

Beautiful. I am a big fan of CCH ! Another , "what's the red dot", cocking indicator ???? When did Ruger put that there??

Eagerly awaiting more info, may have some things to send them myself:)

[Mauser48]

That goes really well with the rifle.

[ticket machine]

First, the red dot is on the end of the hammer. This is a speed hammer I bought from Brownell's probably 10 years ago. I have it in several No.1 Rugers I have. It is a lightweight hammer that speeds the lock time. When a No. 1 is cocked the hammer tip protrudes through the bottom of the action in front of the lever. This hammer does not have the tip, but has a red dot to serve as a cocking indicator.

As to the color case hardening, from what I understand everyone who does it and is successful has their own formula that they won't divulge. This gun was done with the traditional bone, charcoal, leather in the crucible. The gunsmith school at Piedmont Community College did it, and they have been working on a formula that gives good results for a couple of years. I was discussing a desire for a case colored action with a graduate of that school and picking his brain on anyone that he know does a good job. He knew several people who are doing it, but the school could do it without having to wait 8 months to a year like most smiths. They dismantled the action, removed the barrel and used machined blocks of steel in the barrel shank portion and the falling block mortise so the action would not warp under heat. It is just as smooth as it was when it went to them, and I will shoot it pretty soon if it ever stops raining. The price was reasonable and was used to buy supplies and equipment for the school that they need.

I have always been a fan of No. 1 Rugers since I bought my first No. 1-B in .257 Roberts. I frequently shoot the larger ones, .416 Rigby, .45-70, and .458 Mag. with cast boolits and hunt deer with them also. I am starting to load a .30-40 No. 1 with cast boolits to see how it will do.

[oldred]

As to the color case hardening, from what I understand everyone who does it and is successful has their own formula that they won't divulge. This gun was done with the traditional bone, charcoal, leather in the crucible

It is not the formula for CM alloys they refuse to divulge but rather the full methods used for doing so, coloring CM alloy is not a matter of secret formula like other steels it is a matter of METHOD and it's an engineering fact the method you describe should not be used for CM! If that receiver was color cased the way you described it very likely has been weakened at least to some degree, this is not just opinion or my take on it but well known and established engineering FACT and it is not changed by what someone may have told you. This is why most places that do color casing will refuse to do Ruger CM alloy parts and why even Ruger will warn you not to, this is also why Turnbull developed a special METHOD, not formula, for doing color casing on these frames.

There is tons of engineering info out there on hardening the CM alloys that explain what happens when CM is carbon packed but maybe this warning from BROWNELLS explains it best because it is specifically talking about firearms, word for word what BROWNELLS says about casing CM receivers and the bold warning is theirs not mine,



As mentioned before the process was developed to change the outermost layer o flow carbon steel to a carbon rich, very hard wear resistant skin. This allows the manufacturer of firearms and components to fabricate parts with easy to machine, but tough, alloys and then case harden them which provides a hard, wear resistant surface with the soft, shock resistant inner core remaining.
Single shotrifles, lever action rifles, side by side shotguns and single action revolvers typically had color case hardened receivers, levers and other high stress fire control parts like hammers, sears and triggers. These sort of parts make ideal candidates for re-case hardening. Newly manufactured parts made from low carbon steels like 1018, 1020, 1022, 1117 or no carbon wrought iron can also be effectively case hardened.

DO NOT attempt to CCH "Modern" receivers or other firearm components manufactured from Chrome Moly or any other tool steel

This is why I was curious as to the method they were using, I thought perhaps they were using something similar to what Turnbull does but apparently not. Sorry but no matter what they may have told you that method is simply not suitable for the alloys used in that receiver and that's a well known fact, that method as described disputes established engineering methods and not just someone's opinion. Under carefully controlled special conditions 4140 can be colored but since the metal is hardened all the way though, unlike low carbon steels, it is not truly cased like traditional case hardening. When hardened by heating and quenching CM becomes less ductile and a balance must be struck between hardness and ductility, this is normally done by reheating to a slightly lower temperature to temper the part to regain the ductility and thus the high strength of the alloy. That step would destroy the colors but since it's not necessary for low carbon steel and not done in the case hardening process the colors remain undisturbed. In the process you described the tempering, or drawing step necessary for properly tempering the CM alloy could not have been done or the colors would have been ruined so there had to be a trade off of ductility vs hardness and, in this instance, color. How much strength is lost? Maybe not enough to be a problem if the situation was controlled properly but almost certainly to some degree there had to be a compromise made, it's just the nature of the alloy and that's an easily confirmable fact.

I may catch a lot of flack for my stand but that's ok, I know about CM alloys and the hardening process involved. My point is that if someone wants this type of metal colored it can obviously be done BUT it's not as simple as carbon packing like is used with low carbon steels, traditional carbon and bone packing materials are used but with a highly controlled and modified method, not just anyone can properly do this and most place will refuse CM actions, why would that be?

[ticket machine]

Well, I know the ingredients but not the method they used. They have done No.1 rifles before. I will have to inquire as to the method he used.

[oldred]

Yes the formula is the same, even Turnbull says that the traditional bone charcoal is used but I would sure like to know what their methods are, obviously they are successful at what they do. Still adding carbon to and then quenching without tempering CM alloys goes against 75+ years of metallurgical science, at least if done by the traditional methods. I have spent the better part of 40 years trying to obtain maximum strength from these alloys welding or otherwise repairing and or replacing heavy chains, boom support cable anchors, rigging parts and other items that had to be certified before placing back into use, millions of dollars in equipment and people's lives depended on the integrity of these parts. Giant electric mining shovel or small firearm part the science is the same and since everything about this is so contradictory to what we had to learn in order to get our certification and periodic re-certification I can't help but take a special interest in how this is done.

The bottom line is these alloys normally can't be hardened by the heat&quench method unless followed up by the proper tempering step which would completely eliminate the colors, perhaps Turnbull's method involves a means of tempering without losing the colors? Of course that's purely speculation and I don't know if that's even possible but maybe there is way using an atmospherically controlled oven for instance???

For certain some degree of strength would have to be given up if traditional pack hardening methods that skip the tempering step is used, there simply is no way around that using conventional case hardening methods, and if conventional temperatures and carbon packing methods are used this loss should be substantial since the part would certainly be very hard and thus brittle all the way through, it's just the way that material reacts to heating and quenching. That's the dilemma, CCH will be ruined if tempered but at the same time the CM alloys are ruined, or at least compromised to some degree, unless the tempering is done so how do they accomplish this? It's a puzzle for sure since obviously Turnbull for one has been doing it successfully for quite a while but after all those years of trying to avoid doing the very things they appear to be doing, carbon contamination and heat induced brittleness, while working with these alloys it's hard to understand how they are doing it.

[M-Tecs]

, perhaps Turnbull's method involves a means of tempering without losing the colors? Of course that's purely speculation and I don't know if that's even possible but maybe there is way using an atmospherically controlled oven for instance???
.

I don't have any inside knowledge but that would be my guess. I did read one claim it was nothing more than modifying the temps heat treat and quench temps.

[oldred]

I don't have any inside knowledge but that would be my guess. I did read one claim it was nothing more than modifying the temps heat treat and quench temps.


If it involves only modifying the temperatures used then brittleness and strength loss could be minimized but not completely eliminated. The problem is that even if the part is taken to just barely the transition temperature then quenched it will lose a significant amount of strength due to being overly hard and brittle unless it is then tempered. Taken to temperatures less than that and it will not properly harden and reach maximum strength, it must be raised to at least the minimum temperature before quenching to obtain the necessary structural change but this will take it well past the optimum hardness and ductility after quenching and it MUST then be drawn back to the desired level. There simply is no way to arrive at the proper hardness and ductility in the as quenched condition, in fact not even close, again it's just the well known nature of CM alloys. This makes me tend to believe that Turnbull's method involves some sort of highly controlled tempering step.


In an effort to try and solve the mystery I did a quick search of some heat treating outfits looking for information on induction spot hardening of alloy steels since that yields a condition similar to case hardening only localized instead of the whole part as is done with low carbon steels. I didn't find much that could be helpful in understanding the question of how color casing on alloys can be done but there are many descriptions of what is involved in heat treating alloys, just a quote from one heat treating outfit concerning the required tempering of CM alloys,


Tempering is done to develop the required combination of hardness, strength and toughness or to relieve the brittleness of fully hardened steels. Steels are NEVER used in the as quenched condition. The combination of quenching and tempering is important to make tough parts.


This treatment follows a quenching or air cooling operation. Tempering is generally considered effective in relieving stresses induced by quenching in addition to lowering hardness to within a specified range, or meeting certain mechanical property requirements



The highlights are mine this time but the wording is theirs, the point is that is just accepted engineering knowledge yet it is exactly what would be happening if the tempering process is omitted. I don't know how Turnbull does this but I can see where it could lead to a very dangerous situation if someone does it using conventional CCH methods used for low carbon steels mistakenly thinking it must be OK since an outfit like Turnbull is doing it.

[AbitNutz]

It makes the No.1 action look even more like a Farquharson rifle, which to me, is just about the pinnacle of the single shot design.

[oldred]

It makes the No.1 action look even more like a Farquharson rifle, which to me, is just about the pinnacle of the single shot design.

There's a lot more to that than just coincidence I am willing to bet and Ruger couldn't have picked a finer rifle for inspiration that's for sure!!!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

That's true and is the well known process for low carbon steels or alloys such as the 8620 commonly used in receivers, the problem starts when the stronger CM alloys like 4140 and 4150 like used in Rugers are color cased, that's why the hot oil process you described was used on the Low Wall and why Ruger used the chemically applied faux color case on the Vaquero. Turnbull is indeed secretive of their alloy coloring process but whatever they do it can't be the traditional bone charcoal pack method normally used, that would leave those through hardening alloy receivers somewhat brittle and more prone to cracking for two reasons. First the addition of carbon a few thousandths deep at the surface would make that type alloy prone to cracks but the real problem is that these alloys absolutely MUST be tempered, or drawn, after hardening to restore the ductility otherwise they become much too hard inside leaving them somewhat brittle and thus weaker. Low carbon or other steels such as 8620 do not harden all the way through like the CM alloys such as 4140 and 4150 so the color destroying tempering step is not required like it is for the through hardening steels. Even though coloring can be achieved on these alloys by this traditional method the reheating to temper would destroy the color and that tempering step is a necessity to fully restore the strength.

I have heard a theory that they do an induction heating type process that heats the part locally on the surface and does so quickly enough to keep the heat from harming the interior metal, this same process is done industrially to spot harden through hardening alloys leaving a localized hardening only similar to what traditional case hardening does over the entire part. That process can be used to surface harden areas of these alloys but it does not produce any colors so if Turnbull does some variation of that process they have obviously developed another step that produces the coloring effect. No doubt the traditional method will color these alloys but it does so at the cost of giving up a certain degree of the strength these alloys are known for.

Let it be understood that I am no practitioner of the art. The only time I ever achieved it (a quite beautiful mottling, as a matter of fact) was rather like the Snake cartoon where he is bemoaning that everything he has ever tried to achieve goes wrong, and a friend says "Well at least there is nothing wrong with this beautiful shade tree", and he answers "Bonsai elm." I was trying for a nice even surface to facilitate bluing.

With colour case hardening in mild steel or iron, I doubt if there is any big, valuable secret in the substances used, though they generally claim there is. The real trick is differential cooling, and how they achieve a mixture of air and bubbles. Another method is to loosely bind the part in wire, to impede escape of steam bubbles. At a guess some might also use inches-deep wood chips floating in water, or churned-up water and oil or fragmented fat.

Guessing again, I think that with alloys steels the difference is mainly in annealing at a considerably higher temperature than the manufacturers did. There are some rifle designs that mightn't stand such relative softness, but others, notably the Ruger, surely would. Such annealing might spoil the colouring, but induction heating heats a metal object from the inside outwards. It occurs to me that they might be annealing the parts in a blast of cold air, or even (even wilder guesswork here), a bath of some conductive liquid which doesn't get heated by induction.

It is all a bit like the Coca-Cola and Colonel Sanders secret formulae. I bet thousands of people know the secret. What is the salary of a factory worker or burger flipper supposed to buy, the Mafia vow of silence? But the problem is what the art dealers call provenance. They can't say "Of course it is the genuine article. We bought the formula from...." You can risk a generic Cola or fried chicken more easily than you would risk a suspect gun up against your cheekbone.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

There's a lot more to that than just coincidence I am willing to bet and Ruger couldn't have picked a finer rifle for inspiration that's for sure!!!

Finer, no, in these days of investment casting, in which Bill Ruger was the first to see the depth of possibilities. But there were others as fine. I just wish someone would make a modern Martini. All it would take would be some conversations with one or two scope manufacturers, to convince them that a 5in. eye relief scope was worth bringing into production and keeping in production, and they would have it made. I don't have binocular vision, although I am so used to it that it isn't nearly as disconcerting as it would be on the Sunday morning after a bad Saturday night. But it means that all Jeff Cooper's theory on the longer eye-relief Scout scope breaks down for me. I have a 2.75X Burris I have never used, since all it means is a tiny picture.

[AbitNutz]

I have a Greener-Martini in 45/70 that I have added tang sight. What a nice rifle it is. I do wish it had some panache. The wood is incredibly plain as is the blueing. It does have a heavy octagon barrel that shoots well. It would be spectacular with color case hardening because there is no much flat surface on the receiver. It's almost nothing but flat surface.

I wonder how bad a bite it would be to actually color case harden it? Prepping the receive would be easy...it's so flat and open you could use a freakin' belt sander...

[oldred]

Guessing again, I think that with alloys steels the difference is mainly in annealing at a considerably higher temperature than the manufacturers did. There are some rifle designs that mightn't stand such relative softness, but others, notably the Ruger, surely would. Such annealing might spoil the colouring, but induction heating heats a metal object from the inside outwards. It occurs to me that they might be annealing the parts in a blast of cold air, or even (even wilder guesswork here), a bath of some conductive liquid which doesn't get heated by induction

Sorry but you completely lost me there, perhaps you meant tempering instead of annealing?


A steel that has been heat treated such as Ruger or most any firearm part made of CM alloy is usually annealed, taken to the soft condition, before hardening and tempering. I can't think of any CM alloy firearm parts that would be used in the annealed condition especially a receiver, not saying there's not some used some where but I couldn't imagine why they would since heat treated and tempered parts would be harder, stronger and more wear resistant. Besides it would not be possible to have case colors on an annealed part since the very high temperatures required for annealing would assuredly destroy the colors. Annealing requires temperatures FAR in excess of what's required for tempering!




With colour case hardening in mild steel or iron, I doubt if there is any big, valuable secret in the substances used, though they generally claim there is. The real trick is differential cooling, and how they achieve a mixture of air and bubbles. Another method is to loosely bind the part in wire, to impede escape of steam bubbles. At a guess some might also use inches-deep wood chips floating in water, or churned-up water and oil or fragmented fat


Yes, agreed and that's what I was saying earlier, there is no magic secret formula for coloring mild or alloy steels, even 4140 or 4150 will color easily, that's not the problem, the problem is how to recover the proper hardness and ductility after quenching without losing the colors. Nearly a century of metallurgical science and well established industrial procedures dictate that the normal carbon pack method used for low carbon/mild steels will leave these alloys weaker and somewhat brittle unless tempered afterward and that's the catch, the low carbon/mild steels are not tempered because they remain soft and ductile inside with only a very thin hard layer on the surface making tempering unnecessary while CM alloy steels would harden all the way through and thus MUST be tempered by some means. I think the key to coloring the alloys is likely to be a modified and highly controlled tempering step but if tempering is simply omitted to save the colors then the structural integrity will be compromised, no amount of tinkering with heat levels during the heating process would prevent this!

It's just the nature of the alloy, not enough heat and not only will it not color but the original hardness and toughness will be lost and the part will be improperly hardened leading to wear problems and possible stretching due to some loss of tensile strength. If the part is taken to just barely hot enough to color and properly harden it will go way beyond the optimal strength when quenched and MUST be drawn (tempered) back to the proper mechanical specifications, taken to even higher temperatures this becomes even more critical. There simply is no heat range that will allow it to arrive at the proper hardness and strength in the as quenched condition, it will either remain improperly hardened and uncolored if not hot enough or slightly higher until it will reach the *tipping* point at which the metal structure changes and hardness can be achieved by quenching. Once this structural change takes place it will be way to hard and brittle after quenching and thus require tempering, anything less than that and the metal will not properly harden (or color). This is established engineering fact and can not be changed no matter what kind of magical heat manipulation a gunsmith might claim he can use!

Obviously these alloys can be colored and just as apparently someone has managed to do it with no catastrophic strength loss but simply using the normal carbon packing method for low carbon/mild steels by skipping the tempering step completely WILL result in some strength loss, it's an engineering fact.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Sorry, I should have used the word tempering, or said that I meant partial annealing. That is done in modern factories, of course, leaving the receivers of a considerable but not brittle hardness. But repeating the same after case hardening would dim the colours. Unless a company was to leave the case hardened receiver undesirably hard, they must surely be the inside more than the surface.

Was that Greener Martini made that way, or from a shotgun or police gun action? The latter can be very good, but it is a tricky subject for case hardening, because those thin sides would warp easily. You would need steel blocks closely fitting the action, but I wouldn't just use one big block the size of the action mortice, since you do want it cooled on the inside too. They could be held in place with thick wire around the front and rear of the action.


A belt sander would be fine, but it should be used slowly with frequent changes from one side to the other, and stopping to cool. If the side you are grinding gets much hotter than the other, it will expand, and that means bowing inwards or outwards. You don't want to make those sides any thinner by evening out your errors. If I did get one side slightly bowed inwards, I would make up a tiny screw-jack or pair of wedges to prise them apart. You won't harden it too deep for that very slight amount of bending to do any hard, but I have seen case hardened Martini lever with a crazed surface from a greater degree of bending, and you can't afford that with action sides.

I found belts down to 600 grit on eBay for my small hand belt sander. Don't use those on plastic, aluminium, resinous wood etc., as they will clog very quickly. If you rely on the hardware store grades you should finish up with finer wet and dry paper, always held on a block of wood or cork to avoid rounding edges or dishing screwholes.