problems reloading 45 ACP

[pbriggs7]

Hey how's it going looking for some wisdom. Shooting 45 ACP out of a 1911 and XD45. Problem, out of 100 rds. 4-5 failure to feed. It seems like the case is catching high on the throat into the barrel in both guns. Using 200 grn. cast WW, win Lrg. pistol primers and 4.8 grn. win 231. Bullets sized and lubed to .451". I posted on another site and got some anwsers of checking case length, or checking crimp size. I adjusted the crimp size to the rim of the case is sitting at .468". Haven't fired them yet that is coming tomorrow. I don't want to have to trim cases, alot of guiys says there's no need, they never do it. But the one guy who said to check the length, made me check my cases and most of the cases are at .905" or more and lyman manual says trim length is .888" right. Is this an issue using cast bullets that these other guys wouldn't have a clue about?? What's the thoughts of you gentlemen here on the issue.. Thanks for any help in advance.

[2 dogs]

I shot tons of 45 acp in the past, hopefully I can help. First, you can use your barrel from your 45 as a case guage. Just pull your barrel and drop your loaded rounds in there and you will know that they fit before you take them to a match or whatever. In all the 45 auto I ever loaded I never ever once trimmed a case. Almost all the bullets I shot were cast, but whenever I shot a semi wadcutter style the most important thing was overall length. The 1911 style guns are susceptable to a condition known as "untimely leverage" which sounds lke your problem in this case. You are most likely loading your ammo too short. The other issue may be your extractor fit.

If your 45 will feed an empty case from the magazine your throat area and extractor are fine.

[chickenstripe]

I've had similar issues, and the problem was short cycling due to a lack of powder, and yours seems a bit low....???

Round nose or SWC?

I run my 200gr round nose OAL at 1.250 without problems but YMMV....

[freedom475]

Some times this can be a problem with a magazine.
Case length is probly not your problem unless the gun is failing to go into battery, since the ACP headspaces off the crimp.

Overall length might need adjusting, longer or shorter, but this is determined with the seat die not case length.

[2 dogs]

Try 1.270 with your 200 grain SWC....

[danski26]

If you are using a roll crimp, trying a taper crimp might help your problems. I had all sorts of problems loading 45 acp until i went to the taper crimp and wilson mags.

[22cf45]

I have found the vast majority of the times failures to feed are caused by magazine problems. that is where I would start my search for the problem.
Phil

[EMC45]

I have recently had a problem with some 190 gr SWC loads in my Spring. 1911A1. I suspect 4.5 gr. Bullseye wasn't enough. I bumped to 5 gr even. I run the 230 gr TC at 4.5 gr Bullseye.

[sundog]

Ah, one of y'all might be a likely candidate for bidding on this:

.45ACP LoadMAP (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=30650)

[GSM]

As others have said, length of the brass tends not to be an issue - until you get to the crimp stage.

Crimping to .468-.469 is probably a good start.

Do check the extractor tension. Take slide off, hook dummy round under extractor and see if the the round is held in place. If it falls off there's not enough tension. If the round is significantly pointing to the left there's too much tension.

What bullet shape is the 200 gr? Look at the barrel throat to see if its smooth or has a milling mark or something that catches the brass and rebounds the round upward.

Other than that, look at the magazines for release timing - too early & the rounds pop up into the slide/barrle hood, too late and they tend to get smashed into the throat area.

[Echo]

One old saw running around is that the .45 ACP headspaces on the front of the case. It doesn't. Pull the barrel of you slabsides and measure the depth of the chamber. You will find that it is deeper than the case length. So?

I seat my swc's so that about 1/16" of the wc shoulder protrudes, and then taper crimp. The cartridge headspaces on the bullet, If one were to drop one of my reloads into the barrel, it might not go completely in. No matter. The rifling will engrave into the bullet under the 300 G's of force.

And 4.5 grs BE is a stout load - I use 3.6 in my wad gun that only does about 2.5" groups @ 50 yds from a rest. I did one of those myself, once, at Perry - clean, with only 3 x's, and I was cranking the sights the whole time, putting 'em on the gun and taking 'em off in my head, I guess.

Anyway, don't worry about crimping .45's too much - they don't headspace on the case, so have at it. Just make sure your boolit protrudes enough. How much is enough? Seat the boolit so that, when the loaded round is dropped into the barrel, it stands proud several thousandths.

EE

[MtGun44]

I have to disagree that the 45 does not headspace on the case.

This is an old story and has been disproven many times.

Bill

[DLCTEX]

Lyman lists 3.5 Bullseye as start load-5gr. max. Speer has 4.2 -4.5 with 200 gr. cast.

[eka]

I pulled a goodly amount of hair out when I first started loading cast boolits in the 45 ACP, then I discovered the Lee Factory Crimp die. Life has been good ever since. About one out of five would not feed. The FC die's carbide ring leaves the loaded round uniform and I haven't hung one up since.

Keith

[Ricochet]

+1 for the Carbide Factory Crimp Die.

[NSP64]

I load my Lee 200gr swc .45 with the top of the driving band even with the case top, any longer and I get failure to load (Not all the way closed) You don't say what mold you are using. With short nose boolits I use some mags I have that have long feed lips, with longer noses I use some Colt mags with short feed lips.
pbriggs7,Welcome to the site.

[Ricochet]

When I push boolits into the breech of my Government model to jam them into the rifling to check maximum OAL, I end up finding the same OAL as with the shoulder flush with the case mouth. I've had some problems with failing to return to battery when seating them out any further.

[hedgehorn]

I have to disagree that the 45 does not headspace on the case.

This is an old story and has been disproven many times.

Bill

Bill,
I guess I don't understand. If the 45acp doesn't space off the case mouth what does it head space from?

[MtGun44]

The .45 ACP DOES head space on the case mouth. I was disagreeing with the post
that claimed that it did not. I guess I didn't state it very clearly! :-D

Bill

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Bill,
I guess I don't understand. If the 45acp doesn't space off the case mouth what does it head space from?

In a 1911, it head spaces on the extractor. If you doubt it, take an empty, cut the case mouth back a bit, prime it and load and fire. If it didn't, how were we able to reload with cast bullets all those years before taper crimps?
The first time I heard the words "taper crimp" was when I first used the 10MM RCBS dies I'd bought for my new Delta Elite. I remember calling RCBS when I couldn't get a decent crimp, and was told it was the "New" taper crimp, and was supposed to improve accuracy. Just checked the date on them, 1988, and I've been reloading over fifty years, all that time with roll crimp dies.
Morgan

[DONPOTTER]

jOHN BROWNING DESIGNED HIS GUN TO SHOT ROUND NOSE I SEE NO REASON TO DOUGHT HIM. HAVE BOTH 1911 AND XD BOTH LOVE ROUND AND HATE SWC, BUT YOU CAN MAKE THEM WORK WITH A LOT OF RAMP MOD.

[Lloyd Smale]

I agree with morgan. I dont care how it was designed to headspace the headspacing is controled by the extractor. If you load your ammo with this in mind it takes alot of the headache out of it. I find its rare that seating a bullet to deaply or putting to much of a crimp on a bullet cause problmes. Its when there not crimped enough or the bullets are seated out that you will incounter most feeding problems. I also agree with the statement about mags causeing alot of the feeding problem and one more thing ive come to believe is most 1911s from the factory are sprung to tightly for any load and work alot better if you drop your springs weights a couple lbs.
In a 1911, it head spaces on the extractor. If you doubt it, take an empty, cut the case mouth back a bit, prime it and load and fire. If it didn't, how were we able to reload with cast bullets all those years before taper crimps?
The first time I heard the words "taper crimp" was when I first used the 10MM RCBS dies I'd bought for my new Delta Elite. I remember calling RCBS when I couldn't get a decent crimp, and was told it was the "New" taper crimp, and was supposed to improve accuracy. Just checked the date on them, 1988, and I've been reloading over fifty years, all that time with roll crimp dies.
Morgan

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Right on, Lloyd. I find round nose pliers are great for adjusting the magazine feed lips. You can grab them from the front and roll them in and out, controlling the moment when the round jumps up and heads for the chamber.
Morgan

[Ricochet]

It headspaces secondarily on the extractor if the case mouth doesn't stop it. Just as a .308 cartridge will headspace on the extractor in a .30-06 chamber.

[Dale53]

I competed in IPSC for five years. I've also shot my share of Bullseye (better than 40 years of experience with a 1911. I headspace my .45 ACP rounds on the bullet against the lead (leed). That is the way I have found gives the best accuracy. I believe that the consistent ignition it provides is the main reason. I have NO functioning problems. Proper roll crimp OR taper crimp can give excellent results.

Loading for Bullseye with light target loads, I may use as light as a 12 lb spring. Use the heaviest spring you can (for the load in question) and obtain proper functioning to protect your pistol (too light a spring will batter your pistol). I have in excess of 100,000 rounds through one of my 1911's and nearly all of them are"hard ball equivalent". It will still shoot under 2" at fifty yards.

Dale53

[txbirdman]

I'm with Dale on this one. Just seat some SWC's at different lengths; drop them in the barrel; and note the relation of the cartridge base to the barrel hood. I seat all bullets with a front drive band to headspace on the bullet so that the base is even with the barrel hood. This works out to be about 1.245 with the H&G 68

[35remington]

Regarding the "headspace on extractor" theory -

I'm afraid I'll have to kill this one, guys and back MtGun44; unless the case is unusually extra short in a standard gun, the vast majority of the rounds, if not nearly all, headspace on the case mouth (or bullet if set up to do so) in a 1911. Not the extractor.

This is simply proven. It has now been done so many times; we need to get you up to speed.

Remove slide and barrel. With barrel in slide, insert round of standard length or even case only trimmed to the minimum specified length. Link up. Note the space between the case rim and extractor. It's quite considerable. You can even get cute and pry on the base of the case with a thin knife blade to force the case forward to the chamber stop shoulder; there is still space between extractor and rim.

On edit: you must slip the case rim under the extractor first before chambering. When case is fully forward against the chamber shoulder, notice the gap between case rim and extractor. That's how it's supposed to be and is the vast majority of the time. Make sure the barrel lugs are engaged and the barrel in its firing position when verifying this point.

Now, with tolerance stacking, it is possible a short case and long chamber combined with an out of spec extractor CAN headspace on the rim; however, the vast majority of 1911's do NOT headspace on the extractor. Even on cases loaded many times that are short. Even the short case must be sized first to make this a valid way to verify, as cases lengthen when sized and that's the only way you fire them.

This is a belief that is a long time in dying; Charles Petty had to recant publicly when it was demonstrated to him and he retracted in print. He formerly was of the "headspace on the extractor" school.

I roll crimped .45 ACP loads as well. Considerable reduction of the shoulder is necessary before the round can slip any distance past the chamber stop shoulder; try it and measure for yourself. Most times a good roll crimp can be accomplished that still engages the stop shoulder and the "shortening effect" doesn't amount to much. Not enough to make the round headspace on the extractor. Make a Cerrosafe casting and see. If the bullet engages the rifling to headspace, a vicious roll crimp can be tolerated.

Incidentally, if most of your rounds somehow "did" headspace on the extractor, poorer accuracy and less snappy primer detonation will occur. The round tilts slightly in the chamber - off alignment - if headspacing on the extractor depending upon how generous the chamber is. Headspacing on the extractor is so potentially detrimental that tolerances are held to avoid it in the vast majority of cases. JMB wasn't dumb.

So, if by some bad luck your 1911 is one of the very rare few that does occasionally headspace on the extractor, immediate steps are needed to remedy the situation. It is undesirable.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

35remington, I checked this out, and you're right. I stand corrected. Never too old to learn something new.
BTW, JMB designed the .45acp to be able to utilize the existing .30-06 tooling for mfg. cases. That's why the heads are the same. He knew this would be a factor in the govt.'s decision on selecting a new sidearm. A really clever guy.
Morgan

[MtGun44]

No offense intended, but I have done this a LOT.

In 28 years of loading the 45ACP for many different 1911s at the rate of
4-5K per year at the lowest and 15K+ per year for many of the first 10 yrs,
the most common failure to feed (esp with the 'roof jam') has been inadequate
taper crimp. I have assisted dozens of newbie loaders learning on the .45 ACP
and have seen pretty much all of the wrong ways to load for the 1911s.

35Rem is absolutely correct on the headspace, and what he recommends that
you try is how I know it to be true. Of course, if you somehow DID get a
super short round, the extractor would keep the round within range of the
firing pin and it would fire. The ".308 in a .30-06 chamber" analogy is an apt
one. By the way, check out how far a 1911 firin pin will go if unrestrained by
a primer !!! You'll be surprised, I think.

Any normal .45ACP round will headspace on the case mouth in a 1911.

The two most common reloading failures with the 1911 are boolit seated too
long and the full diameter shoulder fouling in the throat of the barrel and
inadequate (even nonexistant) taper crimp. Magazines are a big issue, too.

But if the gun will run with factory ball and has a normal civilian feed ramp
throating job (back of chamber, not 'ball seat' throat) as opposed to the (now
fairly rarely seen) old square sided barrel throat (or ramp) it will almost always
feed a REAL H&G 68 seated to 1.250 to 1.260 LOA, depending on the (ball seat)
throat.

Bill

[35remington]

"A really clever guy."

+1

[GSM]

Finally, a voice of reason.

A note of caution. Some of the information concerning headspacing on the leade is perfectly viable for cast bullets but potentially bad news for jacketed or Ball loads.

Setting cartridge length so cast bullet shoulder contacts the leade is one of the "dark side" things a mature bullseye shooter taught me some time ago. There were 2 cautions though.

DO NOT DO IT FOR BALL / BALL EQUIVALENT AMMO - THE PRESSURE SPIKE CAN BE UNPLEASANT FOR BOTH GUN AND SHOOTER.

DON'T DO IT TOO MUCH - FIRING OUT OF BATTERY CAN BE JUST AS BAD, especially on throated barrels.

The extractor was designed to extract (and lock the firing pin in its tube), not control depth of chambering.

[Lloyd Smale]

I have no doubt the proper way is to headspace on the case mouth but i just shoot to much acp to bother seperating brass or trimming it so i dont worry about it. Ive seen very little increase in accuracy by going through the extra pains of doing it and i shoot many forums of competition with them. If it makes a difference in a good gun at 50 yards it has showed it to me yet.

[Dale53]

GSM;
I agree with you that headspacing on the bullet should be confined to cast bullets. If a round is a bit long, the lead with deform and seat - jacketed will NOT and you may find that the slide may not go into battery.

However, with cast it will remain my preferred method for both reliability and accuracy reasons. It has been proven on the chronograph and on paper through tens of thousands of rounds.

Dale53

[GSM]

Dale:

No argument here - my Clarks (and Springer) tend to prefer a bit of a forced fit chambering. Not knowing the experience level / end use of the folks using the advice posted here raises the pucker factor exponentially. I'd hate to hear of someone hurting themselves or damaging their equipment because they tried to transfer something that works for lead to jacketed high-end defense or Ball level loads.

Not to hijack the thread, but, did you use 2 different bullets when you shot bullseye?

[NSP64]

I don't know what it was designed to headspace on(or care), but My .45 will not go into battery if the bearing surface of the boolit sticks out of the case.(regardless of style)

[hedgehorn]

I don't know what it was designed to headspace on(or care), but My .45 will not go into battery if the bearing surface of the boolit sticks out of the case.(regardless of style)

+1... ^

[Dale53]

GSM;
I have used several different bullets over the years. However, for Bullseye, my preference today is the H&G #130 (in the .45 ACP) sized at .452 over 3.5-4.0 grs of Bullseye or equivalent.

I have used LOTS of Saeco #68 and H&G #68 in IPSC as well as the for-mentioned H&G #130.

I do NOT load a different charge or bullet for 25 and 50 Yards (use the same load for both distances).

Dale53