Walther PPQ M2 45 with Pitted Barrel - Walthers Response: It shouldn't cause issues

[rototerrier]

Started suffering from accuracy issues and increased fouling. Started noticing I couldn't get the inside of the barrel clean. Finally looked closely and was able to determine it was clean, but that there was pitting throughout the barrel.

Spoke with customer service on phone and was told to send the barrel in for replacement. I was very relieved and just assumed it would all be handled and I'd be back out shooting my new 45 in no time. Just to be safe, I made sure to include blown up photos of the inside of the barrel inside the box just to ensure they looked closely and could see what I was referring to.

About a week later was told their gunsmith didn't see an issue but wanted the rest of the firearm for inspection. I mailed the remainder of the firearm as instructed. They had it for 2 more weeks and Returned with no changes and an invoice indicating it needed no repair.

Sent an additional email asking them to clarify how pitting inside the barrel wouldn't be considered a flaw and was given this response:

The gunsmith would have visually inspected the gun and it looks like we provided a target from an accuracy test when it was shipped back.
After reviewing the case, this looks like it should be okay.

I objected. I used a fairly simple analogy. If I purchase a new car and the paint falls of, it might still drive fine, but the paint fell off. I would expect the manufacturer to make it right. They then requested I send photos showing the pitting. I sent the photos.

Final response from Walther:
I just double checked with the master gunsmith here. This should not cause issues with the functionality of your handgun.

That was the entirety of the their response, copied and pasted directly here.

There you have it.

This is my first and last Walther. Only firearm I own that doesn't have a perfectly smooth clean bore. I really would have expected them to have just replaced the barrel and I'd be done and moved on. Apparently that's not how their customer service works.

I'm very disappointed and will most definitely never purchase another Walther of any kind.

This is my experience, YMMV.

Update 06/21/2016: Walther finally replaced the barrel. It's perfectly spotless inside and out. I just received it yesterday and haven't had a chance to try it out. But as far as internal appearance and finish goes, it's smooth and shiny and clean. Night and day difference between the original.

Another interesting thing to note. I posted on waltherforums about my loose fitting RSA. I had mentioned it to Walther, both in email and in the return documentation, to have them check it out while they had it. Mine would literally fall into place and fall out of place. It had zero resistance against the barrel. When removing the slide, the spring would just fall out. Had to be careful when stripping at the range to ensure it didn't fall to the ground. This obviously resulted in a fairly loose slide, but they indicated it was fine. I knew better, but it wasn't the major issue and I didn't push it.

With the new barrel, it fits tight and snug, as it should and as I would expect. You actually have to depress the spring a little to get it to fit into position, just like every other RSA I've ever dealt with. They aren't supposed to just fall in and out. Looks like the new barrel has resolved that issue as well.

Throughout this entire process Walther has actively avoided identifying and resolving issues. My personal opinion is that the Walther warranty is only as good as your ability to persist and persuade. I'm not even sure they would have done anything at all without the BBB getting involved. They completely shut down all communication with me until I opened the case against them.

I am very pleased with the outcome, but extremely disappointed in the time, hassle and effort required to get here.

[osteodoc08]

Wow. That's pretty lousy.

Time for it to go down the road with full disclosure (if it bothers you)

Otherwise just shoot it and shoot it some more.

I have a few rifles with light pitting that don't affect accuracy. I keep them oiled and cleaned and don't lose any sleep.

[35remington]

Yes, that would irritate me somewhat, but don't lose the forest for the trees. In other words, shoot it and see if it shoots. If it does, then assess the relevance of the issue in light of that, then decide what to do now that you have the complete picture. What I don't understand is you said "started suffering from accuracy issues." You mean it shot better before? Is it possible it pitted on your watch and not theirs? That would explain the change in accuracy.

Or do you mean "I suffered from accuracy issues from the start." ????? Do you have sufficient skill to know if it is you or the gun, would you say?

I've got some old pistols with less than pristine barrel interiors, admittedly not purchased new but they are what they are. I kept them because they shoot fine. If they didn't shoot they went down the road.

Interestingly enough, pitted barrels don't necessarily mean a barrel that will lead with cast bullets. In fact, the ones I have don't lead.

[Catshooter]

How sad. Customer No-Service I'd say. I really like the Walther & H&K lines, but I stay far away from them for that exact reason.


Cat

[FergusonTO35]

Wow, very sad. No Walther or HK in my future. The guns are expensive, parts are expensive and only available from the OEM, and you are basically at their mercy on whether they want to help you or not.

One thing I love about Glock is, there is so much aftermarket stuff for them that you aren't SOL if the manufacturer won't help you. I have no idea how good their CS is, don't plan to ever find out unless I have a slide or frame failure. I suspect that if you aren't LE/military you go to the back of the line and stay there.

[farmersamm]

Bought a Citadel Full Size 45ACP a while back, from Hinterland Outfitters (online purchase).

Inspected the thing when it arrived at my FFL, and although I saw some staining on the foam liner inside the hard case, I didn't really notice anything amiss. Did the paper work, and accepted the piece.

After the first cleaning, I noticed some staining in the barrel. Twas a light bit of rust scattered at various points in the bore. Ooooomph!

Important Lesson Here: Wear your glasses when you take a gander at a new toy!

Anyways......Being as it had performed fine prior to the first cleaning, and continues to perform fine, I've just put it all in my rear view mirror.

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ......

As to your customer service problem. That's another matter altogether.

Another fine purchase.....Ruger Super Redhawk, .44 .

Couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with it when I first got it home, popped some handloads in the cylinder, and took it in my hot sweaty hands out for the first firing. I mean sure.........could hit a 6" plate at 25 feet, but they were all low, and to the right #$)(!@.

https://youtu.be/HTOcYjFHiGA

After some more frustration, I finally packed it in, and sat down on the couch to REALLY inspect the thing.

TURNS OUT THE BARREL WAS CLOCKED INCORRECTLY!!!!! Looking from the muzzle, the sight was leaned over to the right. No wonder the thing was shooting where it was!! Geez!!

Called Ruger, they gave me a return authorization, and out it goes in the fat little brown UPS truck.

Two weeks later, back it comes. Invoice lists repairs, test target enclosed (I really wonder if they don't just have a stock picture that they put the gun serial # on :wink: )

They put a brand new barrel on the thing, and all's fine now. Beautiful gun. Shoots where it's supposed to, and more accurate than I am.

No hassles, no ****, just did the right thing.

.................................................. .................................................. ..............................................

So I guess, in the final analysis........

Online purchases need to be approached with extra care. Full inspection, and not just a quick looksee. After you accept transfer, it's yours.

Accuracy issues are generally the fault of the guy behind the trigger, at least when it comes to me :-) The dreaded flinch is the biggest destroyer of accuracy. Takes some pretty serious problems to cause the gun to shoot wrong (as with the Ruger).

[reddog81]

How old is the gun? Are you the original owner? Was the accuracy better when the gun was new? Did they send a target back with the gun? Can you post the the barrel pics?

Have you shot a lot of cast bullets through it - it could be leading.

[FergusonTO35]

When the Remlin lever actions first came out it was a rarity to find one with the barrel clocked straight. When I looked at a new 336 and 1894 at the fun store Monday they were clocked as good as my eyes can tell so maybe they are getting them turned around. I think the factory assumed 99% of buyers are going to just put a scope on it and will never notice. They still have those irritating fat forends though.

[str8wal]

I'm very disappointed and will most definitely never purchase another Walther of any kind.

Thank you for posting this and saving me the disapointment. I was considering a Walther, but no more.

[Handloader109]

Thank you for posting this and saving me the disapointment. I was considering a Walther, but no more.

Really? Just because a gunman won't replace something that you think needs replacing doesn't mean that it needs replacing. If it shoots good, then it shoots good. As described, accuracy declined, why? Minor pitting won't do it. Btw, I've three walthers and have had no issues. Ppq m2,ppx and a Ppq 22 caliber. No pitting in the barrels. Just my simple opinion

[dubber123]

Curious how the pitting got there. It was either there when new, and went unnoticed, or it was caused later. I have never heard of a barrel spontaneously pitting. Kinda curious.

[ioon44]

Started suffering from accuracy issues and increased fouling. Started noticing I couldn't get the inside of the barrel clean. Finally looked closely and was able to determine it was clean, but that there was pitting throughout the barrel.

Spoke with customer service on phone and was told to send the barrel in for replacement. I was very relieved and just assumed it would all be handled and I'd be back out shooting my new 45 in no time. Just to be safe, I made sure to include blown up photos of the inside of the barrel inside the box just to ensure they looked closely and could see what I was referring to.

About a week later was told their gunsmith didn't see an issue but wanted the rest of the firearm for inspection. I mailed the remainder of the firearm as instructed. They had it for 2 more weeks and Returned with no changes and an invoice indicating it needed no repair.

Sent an additional email asking them to clarify how pitting inside the barrel wouldn't be considered a flaw and was given this response:

The gunsmith would have visually inspected the gun and it looks like we provided a target from an accuracy test when it was shipped back.
After reviewing the case, this looks like it should be okay.

I objected. I used a fairly simple analogy. If I purchase a new car and the paint falls of, it might still drive fine, but the paint fell off. I would expect the manufacturer to make it right. They then requested I send photos showing the pitting. I sent the photos.

Final response from Walther:
I just double checked with the master gunsmith here. This should not cause issues with the functionality of your handgun.

That was the entirety of the their response, copied and pasted directly here.

There you have it.

This is my first and last Walther. Only firearm I own that doesn't have a perfectly smooth clean bore. I really would have expected them to have just replaced the barrel and I'd be done and moved on. Apparently that's not how their customer service works.

I'm very disappointed and will most definitely never purchase another Walther of any kind.

This is my experience, YMMV.


I went through pretty much the same experience with a new PPQ 45, shooting factory 230gr FMJ after 100rds the pitting started to appear.
Sent the barrel to Walther and got the same from the master gunsmith, so I shot 100 more factory and a lot more pitting, after sending more pics of the inside of the barrel and phone calls I was sent a replacement barrel.

I shot 200 rds of 230 gr FMJ out of the new barrel with no problems and have run well over 1000 rds of Hi-Tek coated 185 gr & 200 gr cast loads and the new barrel is still mirror bright, super great accuracy and no leading.

Walther customer Service worked for me , just don't give up.

Aslo I have a PPQ 9mm which never has had a problem of any kind, these guns are a step ahead of any thing else.

[Ramjet-SS]

Seems it may be an issue with the MFG process pulling material loose then when fired it flakes may not be pitting so match as flaking. Either way they need to stop running from the issue and directly address it and correct it.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Not taking any side here on the CS issues, but light pitting in a .45 Auto barrel won't adversely affect accuracy, especially with lead projectiles that fit correctly. In fact....it's well established that if all the rifling is gone except an inch or so at the muzzle, the gun will shoot OK.

[str8wal]

Really? Just because a gunman won't replace something that you think needs replacing doesn't mean that it needs replacing. If it shoots good, then it shoots good. As described, accuracy declined, why? Minor pitting won't do it. Btw, I've three walthers and have had no issues. Ppq m2,ppx and a Ppq 22 caliber. No pitting in the barrels. Just my simple opinion

A new gun shouldn't have a pitted barrel, period. Their CS response was pitiful, IMO

[rototerrier]

I went through pretty much the same experience with a new PPQ 45, shooting factory 230gr FMJ after 100rds the pitting started to appear.
Sent the barrel to Walther and got the same from the master gunsmith, so I shot 100 more factory and a lot more pitting, after sending more pics of the inside of the barrel and phone calls I was sent a replacement barrel.

I shot 200 rds of 230 gr FMJ out of the new barrel with no problems and have run well over 1000 rds of Hi-Tek coated 185 gr & 200 gr cast loads and the new barrel is still mirror bright, super great accuracy and no leading.

Walther customer Service worked for me , just don't give up.

Aslo I have a PPQ 9mm which never has had a problem of any kind, these guns are a step ahead of any thing else.

This is exactly my experience, but they won't even respond to my emails at this point. Guess I'll have to pickup the phone and nag them.

[rototerrier]

Straight from the manual that came with my pisol.

WALTHER PPQ pistols are warranted to be free from defects in material and workmanship.Any such defects of which WALTHER receives written notice by the original owner will beremedied by WALTHER without charge within a reasonable time after such notification anddelivery of the PPQ pistol as provided below.

Interesting note, it states "without charge". I'm not exactly sure how far the extends as it's not specific. But they did not provide shipping for the barrel but did supply shipping for the rest of the gun on their second request. Not sure if that was an oversight. Since they weren't specific, I'd imagine they can do whatever they want with shipping fees. Not sure why they covered some shipping and not all. But that's really insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

I've opened up another case and will follow up with a phone call later today and let everyone know how it goes. Hoping they'll see reason at some point. It's extremely frustrating.

[FergusonTO35]

A new gun shouldn't have a pitted barrel, period.

Agree 100%. Why would anyone think otherwise?

[Frank46]

When winchester started doing hammer forged barrels on their model 70's they had a lot of problems with pits in the barrel. Don't remember if the bores were contaminated with foreign substances or the metal itself was really the right type for the hammer forging process. Had a brand new model 70 with heavy barrel and when cleaning it the first time before shooting thought I saw pits. After shooting and cleaning definitely pits. Sent it back on their dime and when I got it back still had pits. Sold it at a loss. Frank

[FergusonTO35]

In spite of the fantastic legend surrounding them, Winchester Repeating Arms has always had a lot of room for improvement.

[str8wal]

Agree 100%. Why would anyone think otherwise?

Aparently Hondloader109 does?

[FergusonTO35]

Is Handloader talking about a brand new gun or one 100 years old? Yes, a gun with a pitted bore can still shoot well just like my 18 year old truck with peeling paint runs great. That still doesn't mean it would be acceptable on a new truck.

[Cary Gunn]

Gents,

Is there any chance that Walther barrel was made by the new-fangled "MIM" metal fabrication method? MIM (Metal Injection Molding) is supposed to produce a steel that will serve as well as forged or cast steel, but does it really?

As I understand the MIM procedure, powdered steel is injected into a mold, then, apparently under great pressure, is formed into a solid steel part. I just wonder, though, if the process is really "trustworthy."

I'm as clueless as Hillary when it comes to modern metal fabrication methods, but, still, from a layman's perspective, is it possible to to foul-up the MIM process somehow and arrive at a steel part riddled with unseen internal porosity?

If such porosity exists, a MIM part could look perfect even after machining, only to later display the porosity in the form of surface pits revealed as the part undergoes wear.

I know MIM fabrication is used to form many pistol parts, but I have no idea if any manufacturers use it to make barrels. Porosity resulting from faulty MIM parts might, however, explain how a barrel's bore could initially appear fine, only to reveal pitting/porosity on the surface of the bore as the pistol's "round count" increases.

Please take what I've said with a large measure of salt, since I know virtually nothing of the nitty-gritty of modern metals manufacturing.

Still, to my uninformed mind, it would seem the MIM process might be capable of causing the problems the OP saw in his Walther barrel. Hopefully, there will be some techno-geeks out there with real-world manufacturing knowledge who will let us know if my layman's hunches are worth considering.

So, you engineering nerds, tell us what you know about the "trustworthyness" of MIM fabrication.

I'd really like to know, since I, too, have a new pistol that developed minute pitting randomly throughout the bore after a modest amount of use. My pistol's manufacturer also uses some MIM parts in its products, but, again, I don't know if the barrels are made with MIM technology.

The gun in question is a tiny, little .380 ACP, hardly bigger than a pack of smokes. Even with the minute pitting, the the little 10-ounce wonder will easily produce two-hand, off-hand groups of 2 1/2 inches at 15 yards. With "rabbit head accuracy" like that, the little smart-alleck would actually make a nice super-lightweight trail gun. Or, in a smaller, "hide-friendlier" caliber, a perfect trapper's companion.

So, I'd really like to know what caused the pitting in my little friend's bore.

Answers, anybody?

Happy trails,

-- Cary Gunn --

[dubber123]

I believe the S&W Bodyguard 380's use MIM barrels, never heard of an issue. I believe Kimber uses MIM for a lot of parts, including hammers and sears. The connecting rods in new Corvettes are MIM parts from what I understand. I have heard of small MIM parts breaking in firearms, but then again, the billet steel aftermarket hammer from a well known manufacturer of 1911 parts broke almost instantly on my brother. It was replaced no questions asked, but shows nothing is perfect.

I can see your thoughts on porosity being possible, but having the pits somehow end up just under the machined surface to reappear after such minute wear that a barrel sees seems very unlikely. There are experts in MIM manufacturing on this site, hopefully they will chime in.

[FergusonTO35]

The S&W Bodyguard is the only gun I've heard of with an MIM barrel, although MIM parts are present in alot of guns. Please forgive the sacrilege but I actually like the MIM hammer and trigger in my S&W 637. They were super smooth from the get go, and a very light honing of the mating surfaces produced a really sweet double action pull. If they ever need replaced I can get them from Brownell's for cheap and they will drop in with no fitting.

[jimb16]

This is an interesting thread for me. I have a BlackHawk in .45 colt that has significant pitting near the muzzle. The darn thing is one of the most accurate handguns that I have ever had! Go figure. I use PC'd boolits and leading isn't an issue so I'm not about to replace the barrel. Why mess with it if it isn't a real issue?

[Four-Sixty]

I don't expect that $400 handguns will have flawless MIM barrels. There must be some acceptable limits for inclusions from oxidation, debris etc.

I have a Marlin 336 with a pitted bore, and rust damage crown. I can hit an 8" target at 100 yards standing up with my load of a 165 Ranch Dog boolit over 16 grains of 2400.

[odfairfaxsub]

I don't give a rats tail if it doesn't affect the function of a gun sir. Brand new gun means flawless or near flawless barrel quality. Sounds like a die hard.....like to see you get a 1500 dollar freedom revolver w pitting in the barrel to be told it doesn't affect function and I don't think the argument "your comparing apples to oranges" as these are not cheap/free by any stretch or means.

[OS OK]

Well. you are SOL with that customer no-service but I wouldn't part without at least giving them the 'what for'!
I'd send several copies of the same letter to various higher officers of that firm giving them a calm, short and concise rundown of your efforts and results. Tell them your intentions now along with the fact that you are going to spread the word to your fella enthusiast in the forums and name this one for example.
There might be a conscientious exec. that will pick up the ball in your favor.

I doubt it…but it's worth a try and it might make you feel better having gotten in the last word?

[9.3X62AL]

Bore pitting is a holdover from the days of black powder and/or corrosive priming. A few imported ammo types still contain corrosive priming--could this be a possible cause?

I have spent most of my life in a dry climate. We spent 13 months living about 4 blocks from the beach near the Mexican border recently, so salt air and humidity raised hell with steel and iron tools that had not been oiled against their effects. I was conscientious about gun care during that time, but every so often I run into a die or other tool that I missed treating. Surface rust and slight pitting is the outcome in such cases.

[rototerrier]

After Walther responded to my BBB complaint and sent me another FedEx return label, I shipped it off. I just received it and nothing new.

Walther's Response: Gunsmith inspected and found not pitted it is okay.

Maybe they are playing around with semantics. If it's not pitting, it's certainly roughness and not something I'd expect in a new barrel.

I sent it to them with the inside of the barrel perfectly clean, and received it back fouled. Excessively fouled in my opinion. I'm surprised that didn't raise any cause for concern on their end.

What they didn't do is explain what it is that's in the barrel. If it's not pitting, what is it? Explain what it is. Don't just say it's okay. I'm completely at a loss to how horrible their customer service is.

I guess I'll just let the BBB complaint go unresolved and try to escalate further up the line.

[rototerrier]

What's very strange is that in their response to my BBB complaint they indicated:


We have a device that allows us to view the inside of barrel and if indeed the inside of barrel is flaking off then it will be replaced.

And yet they made no mention on the service report that they did this, or what it is that they did see. After going though all of this, they are as vague as they can possibly be.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=169726&d=1465321018&thumb=1&stc=1

[DougGuy]

I had a 1943 made Colt GI 1911A1 with pits so bad in the barrel you could grow potatoes. It kept everything on a 6" paper saucer at 50yds and didn't lead the bore. I couldn't for the life of me figure out how it managed that but it was a great shooting old GI 45. Some things you think will work, won't, and some things you think won't work, do. Go figure.

If the pitting is in the throat and you send the barrel for throating, highly likely the new throat would take out the pitted areas of the bore and leave you with something like this which btw, shoots lights out with cast .452" boolits. This is a Kahr barrel with polygonal rifling made by Lothar Walther. Might void the warranty on the barrel but sounds like they could care less which makes warranty a fairly empty term. It's a thought anyway, and will fix the barrel.


http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/Kahr%20P45%20polygonal/DSC04932%20Custom_zpsx2zh6d8z.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/Kahr%20P45%20polygonal/DSC04932%20Custom_zpsx2zh6d8z.jpg.html)

[Bulliwig]

The only thing to mention is, Walther (the firearms company) is different to Lothar Walther (only barrel making) and got nothing to do with them, even they share the name.

[rototerrier]

Update 06/21/2016: Walther finally replaced the barrel. It's perfectly spotless inside and out. I just received it yesterday and haven't had a chance to try it out. But as far as internal appearance and finish goes, it's smooth and shiny and clean. Night and day difference between the original.

Another interesting thing to note. I posted on waltherforums about my loose fitting RSA. I had mentioned it to Walther, both in email and in the return documentation, to have them check it out while they had it. Mine would literally fall into place and fall out of place. It had zero resistance against the barrel. When removing the slide, the spring would just fall out. Had to be careful when stripping at the range to ensure it didn't fall to the ground. This obviously resulted in a fairly loose slide, but they indicated it was fine. I knew better, but it wasn't the major issue and I didn't push it.


With the new barrel, it fits tight and snug, as it should and as I would expect. You actually have to depress the spring a little to get it to fit into position, just like every other RSA I've ever dealt with. They aren't supposed to just fall in and out. Looks like the new barrel has resolved that issue as well.


Throughout this entire process Walther has actively avoided identifying and resolving issues. My personal opinion is that the Walther warranty is only as good as your ability to persist and persuade. I'm not even sure they would have done anything at all without the BBB getting involved. They completely shut down all communication with me until I opened the case against them.


I am very pleased with the outcome, but extremely disappointed in the time, hassle and effort required to get here.

[ioon44]

Glad you got you barrel replaced. My replacement barrel is still bright and smooth after over 2000 rounds and super accurate.

I also put the Apex trigger in my PPQ 45, WOW.

[FergusonTO35]

Wow, glad you finally got it resolved. If I was in charge I would have given you a new barrel the first time around just to make the problem go away then sell the original on Fleabay as a used part. I'm sure they spent more on shipping than they would have spent on a new barrel the first time around.

[rototerrier]

I took it out to the range yesterday and the results were fantastic. The original barrel required the rear sight be moved almost all the way to the right. The last time it was returned to me "tested" and claimed to be accurate, they had shifted the sights even farther to the right. And when I say right, I don't mean a little right. We are talking way way right. After the first couple of shots slung extremely far right, I shifted the rear sights back to dead center. I then proceeded to churn through 200 rounds and every shot was right where it was supposed to go. Gun has never been more accurate. It's like a totally new experience. I left the range extremely pleased.

1) Loose RSA solved
2) Accuracy issue solved
3) Internal appearance resolved

I am now extremely happy with this gun. Looks like that original barrel was just a dud in multiple ways.

And you are right, the shipping cost must have been high. They were supplying FedEx express. I'm sure that was at least $10 each way. That's at least $70 in shipping if that's the case.

The price of the replacement barrel listed on their return invoice is 215.95. I'm sure that's full retail. They definitely spent a lot of money trying to avoid this one.

[FergusonTO35]

Walther really fouled this one up. Less "pedigreed" marques such as Ruger and even Kel-Tec have much better customer service.

[charlie b]

Not sure why they were stubborn about this one.

A friend had a Walther .380 get a bulge in the barrel after about 6 months of use. Sent it back and got a replacement barrel for the cost of shipping.