Yildiz shotguns at Academy Sports

[richhodg66]

Was looking at a single shot >410 there the other day imported from Turkey. It's designed to fold up and is light, probably too light even for a .410, but it sure was graceful in the hands.

Got me to wondering if they might be decent for a barrel stubbing project to make a .32 S&W walk around rifle. I kind of like the idea of a hammerless design for this and these would fit the bill. Anyone have one?

[Mk42gunner]

There were a few threads that talked of using these for a donor action in the past. Maybe in the gunsmithing section?

The only folding .410 I have ever shot was an Italian one (Beretta?) that my neighbor had. With 2½" shells it wasn't bad.

I do think that as long as the trigger can be made decent, they would make a nice little "rook" or bunny rifle. Maybe in .32 S&W Long?

Robert

[Earlwb]

I don't see any problem with it. I would likely go with a barrel/chamber insert for .32 S&W. Then you can remove the insert to make it a shotgun again too.
This website might give you ideas too.
http://www.mcace.com/shotguninserts.htm
Their .22 Hornet insert for a .410 looks quite interesting. That would make for a good bunny round too.

[Forty Rod Ray]

It bears a strong resemblance to the excellent Beretta single of not too long ago. I only regret once (every morning) not adding one of them, when they sold for peanuts..... I digress.

[pietro]

.

It should be doable - I had a friend turn down a milsurp 8x57 Mauser barrel, which (after cutting off the chamber/chamber swell end) we fitted (we actually epoxied the "new" liner in place) to the .410 bore of an old (ca.1925) H&R Bay State break-open single-shot, & chambered for the .32 S&W.

We might not have needed to, but bushed the firing pin anyway.


It made for an excellent, low-budget ($150 total, for donor gun & milsurp 8mm bbl) woodswalker.




.

[richhodg66]

I actually have one of the Berettas mentioned. Pretty little gun, it's a 20 gauge with a short, youth stock on it.

I was thinking one of these Yildiz .410s (which retail brand new for $129.95) would sleeve nicely to .32 S&W.

The barrel sleeves Track of the Wolf sells by the inch designed for the .32-20 are 1/2" outside diameter they say. Seems like it would be easy enough to cut of the .410 barrel at the front of the chamber, drill it to the proper diameter then thread one of those barrel sleeves and the inside of the chamber to hold it together. Would one of those sleeves be strong enough to serve as a barrel just by itself?

It would have to be chambered, obviously, and an extractor cut would need to be made and an extractor modified or fabricated. How hard would all this be for a guy with no lathe and no machining experience?

I think I'm gonna go look at one of these again and see how big the firing pins in them are.

[richhodg66]

I don't see any problem with it. I would likely go with a barrel/chamber insert for .32 S&W. Then you can remove the insert to make it a shotgun again too.
This website might give you ideas too.
http://www.mcace.com/shotguninserts.htm
Their .22 Hornet insert for a .410 looks quite interesting. That would make for a good bunny round too.

This is an interesting idea. It wasn't clear to me how they extract/eject spent cartridges? Seems like one of these could be put in with Loctite for an easy barrel lining.

[rking22]

I built a 32SWL on one, there's a thread here on it. If you decide to go this way just go ahead and buy 2. It will save you the trouble of going back. I shot the one I bought to convert, was so much fun I couldn't do it so had to go backand buy another for the conversion. It is a ball as a 410 shotgun,all 3.3 lbs of it!
I made a new monoblk (actually a friend did the bulk of the work) and threaded a .308 barrel from gunparts to it, and made a new extractor. I played withit some time back but have been working 7 days a week and distracted with other "toys". Now you have motivated me to dig it back out and do some serious shooting. Now I have 3 additional moulds for the 32s and 2 new pistols to go with it.
On the trigger , it is stiff and I have not done anything to improve it. On the list! The firing pin is already bushed and really is fine (dia wise) for the 32 Long. I would not put a 327Fed in the action due to case head thrust but 32 HR would be fine as is. Using a TOW liner would work well but the barrel walls would be very thin after drilling out to .5 ID. I think the 410 barrel OD is only 9/16 inch! It should be as much fun to shoot as the 410 version.
I have shot my 410 on the order of 500 to 1000 rounds, I don't keep records well. It is choked mod and works well on doves and rabbits( I have plenty other guns, just enjoy hunting with this little toy).
We put on an International Skeet clinic at our local club. Frank Thompson was one of the instructors. During a morning break I caught Frank and handed it to him without saying a word. He grinned , then grinned some more when I showed him a bag of shells. We shot international skeet singles with that little thing till the shells ran out. I missed some, Frank did not miss ANY! Everyone who has shot it giggles, no kidding , giggles!!! So buy 2 :)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?234255-32SWL-bunnygun

[John Taylor]

I have done about 1/2 dozen conversions on the Beretta from 32 acp to 45 acp and a 30-40. Copy lug from the original barrel and silver solder it to the new barrel. Rimless extractor is a bit fun to make. The liner idea for a 410 does not work as well. If you turn the liner down it may not shoot as well and some 410 barrel will warp if reamed out. You might be able to use a 3/8" 22 liner and do a 22 hornet by putting a sleeve on the chamber end to take up the 410 chamber. Hornets are good for blowing primers so the firing pin would need to be bushed.

[Earlwb]

The company I mentioned above was typically selling the inserts for the .410 in .218 and .22 calibers. I think that they ran into the problems you mentioned. But they sell all of the inserts for .410, 20 guage and 12 gauge in 2.75", 10" and 18" lengths. The short inserts are interesting as it is like having a silencer on the gun. The large diameter barrel acts like a silencer with many of the different calibers. The 10 inch barrel would be pretty nice with the pistol calibers.

[rking22]

A little off topic, but I made a 22LR chamber insert for 12 ga. If I was careful about orientation, I could shoot resonably well out to 50ft. Turned brass to fit the chamber closely then bored and inserted a 6 inch barrel offset for the rim hit. It seemed to me, the little thing was avtually louder than a 6 inch pistol! Could have just been that I expected it to be quiter. I have not fooled around with the concept any more but I keep thinking a long 32HR or 38Spec adapter would be "neat" in a Ruger 28Ga OU, kinda useless for me, but neat :) For me, I want a "bunny gun" to be light and accurate with good iron sights. The Yildiz could be that with a long adapter if you had it made to fit the chamber and the barrel portion larger dia so that you bored the 410 barrel larger and locktighted the adapter in place. Then cut that 28 inch barrel back and install some good sights. A 22 inch barrel is a good ballance on the little gun.

[richhodg66]

As cheap as they are, buying two might be a good idea. Seriously considering making one of these. Might be a .22 Hornet, the weight and trim handling qualities would be great.

[rking22]

In hornet, you may need to make a smaller firing pin, I'll check mine and get back on the dia. Oh , the fit and finish on these is outstanding. Makes HR and Rossi look like they were finished out by toddlers with hatchets!

[Jedman]

I wanted one of these to make a rifle out of and stopped at a Academy Sports store in GA last year and they would not sell me one. They told me there store policy is to only sell guns to residents of the state the store is in or a connecting state bordering where the store is ???
I am a resident of OH and usually drive to FL at least once a year and the Academy stores are only in TN and GA along I 75 so unless I can find one used somewhere I am out of luck.
The few they had at the store had very nice looking Turkish Walnut stocks and the overall fit and finish was really good for a $ 120 gun. I still want one !

Jedman

[rking22]

Well , that stinks,did you check any other stores to see if maybe it was just that Academy? If I hear of any used ones I'll keep you in mind.

Oops forgot, I checked my fireing pins and I would give the hornet a try on the factory setup. It is about the same fit and dia as my CZ hornet.

[richhodg66]

Our Academy here is relatively new, about a year. I have no idea what states have them and which ones don't. They are the only place I have seen selling these, but surely there is another distributor?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I'm wary of converting .410s in general, for at least in Europe there are so many old Belgian .410s, excellent for their intended purpose, which are a shape and weight to make a delightful Hornet rifle, and yet I wouldn't trust the materials or the dimensions. I have seen one, probably with untypically defective material or workmanship, broken in the action bar by shotgun use.

The Yildiz is in a different league from those, and I would have no hesitation converting it for a pistol cartridge of moderate pressure, probably stopping short of the .327 Federal. Others may know more than I do about its metallurgy, but without that I don't believe I would do it as a Hornet or .218 Bee. The receiver is of 7075 aluminium alloy, which in the right version and state of temper can have the tensile and yield strength of some steels. But you can't see a state of temper.

.25 caliber liners from Track of the Wolf (or TJ's, who make them) have the advantage of 7/16in. in diameter, and John Taylor mentions with turning down or reaming. A .44 Special or .44-40 (I'd prefer the former) has an advantage if you want to use TJ's liners. They make the calibres for the Colt SAA in 7/8in. diameter. and thus suitable for using only the first few inches as a monobloc. Another option, if you care to use a .270 barrel blank, would be the .270 REN, which is what you get by fireforming the Hornet case virtually straight.

I don't believe there would be anything wrong with epoxying a liner in a gun like this, though I would use the slow and strong epoxy. Loctite should work better if you get the fit of the liner too close to be sure of its filling all of the joint. For that would give the least likelihood of the barrel warping as it heats up. It isn't going to be the hottest barrel in the world, but you can do an illuminating experiment by setting up the rifle in a fixed rest pointing at a target, inserting a laser boresighter in the muzzle, and holding a lighted match under the barrel.

A friend with a pair of inherited Purdeys was very pleased with a Yildiz over and under, which he used while working on an engineering contract in Turkey. The .410 looks good, especially if the walnut lives up to what their website shows, and depending on the sear design, you might find that that rather long grip permits the use of a double set trigger. I think I would be inclined to replace the forend without that bevel at the rear, giving up the folding feature but possible easily taken down by unclipping the forend in the usual shotgun manner. But that is just me, and my idea of looks.

Did you mean Academy are their sole distributor in the US? If I have the right Academy they have stores in Kentucky, which neighbours Ohio. Yildiz say "We are very happy to be a worldwide known company", which means they might be happy to lean on Academy if you ask them.

http://www.yildizshotgun.com/en/anasayfa.html

http://www.academy.com/shop/browse/brands/yildiz

[richhodg66]

I have mixed feelings about Academy. On the one hand, it sure was good to get a place that finally had rimfire ammo and reloading components consistently and they are a great general purpose sporting goods store for all kinds of stuff.

Stores like them, and online sights, are destroying old school gun shops though. Almost none of the guns they stock are very interesting to me, which is why these little .410s stood out. The average schmuck who isn't really a gun nut will go there to by the latest reviewed black rifle or auto pistol without looking any further. Can't fault academy, really, they are simply doing what free enterprise dictates, but I still like the old school brick and mortar gun shops.

I'm gonna buy one of these Yildiz shotguns. Might be years before I get to it, but a small, break open single shotgun is a useful thing to have around anyway and they are so cheap, I think I can afford to have it around idle for a while.

[jandbj]

https://www.gunpartscorp.com/ad/594260.htm

numrich has some thin wall (.440OD) 9mm/.38 barrel liners.... :-)

If if there was an Academy anywhere in New England, I'd be on this like a fat kid on cupcakes. :lol:

[GhostHawk]

It is 3 states minimum for me to get to one. To drive would cost more than the gun does.

It would be tempting to have one of you guys that live close to one pick one up for me.
But then we are looking at shipping and FFL fees. Kind of destroys the whole point.

I'm interested, but I don't want to have to go over 150$ total, so I don't see how it can be done at this point.

That walnut sure looks good.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

https://www.gunpartscorp.com/ad/594260.htm

numrich has some thin wall (.440OD) 9mm/.38 barrel liners.... :-)

If if there was an Academy anywhere in New England, I'd be on this like a fat kid on cupcakes. :lol:

That looks good, for a pistol cartridge, but I don't like the idea of a liner only .045in. thick for anything really high pressure. Then you would have trouble finding a common (or even nearly common) rimmed cartridge for .354 bullets. I think you would have to check between your brass and a die manufacturer (or dies a friend already has) to see whether a .38 round could be reloaded to grip the smaller bullet.

In answer to Rich's question earlier, the extractor conversion isn't very different. Perfection is replacing the Yildiz extractor altogether, and I don't know if it is complex enough to need milling. But it should be possible. If the extractor covers 180 degrees or so of the case head, you can make a steel ring, like the last eighth inch or so of a chamber and the outside like the last eighth inch or so of a .410 case. Then you silver solder it to the Yildiz extractor and cut away the other 180 degrees or whatever till it enters its recess. As long as you haven't used an air hardening steel, you can cut the rim recess with the chamber reamer. But don't count on the reamer to cut the new part flush with the body of the chamber. That may force it sideways and make the chamber oversize on the other side, or cause the reamer pilot to scar the bore.

[John Taylor]

I think the 44-40 would be an ideal cartridge on the Yildiz. It has the same chamber pressure as the 410. Was think of making my little 410 double into a double rifle in 44-40.

[EDG]

>>>The receiver is of 7075 aluminium alloy, which in the right version and state of temper can have the tensile and yield strength of some steels. But you can't see a state of temper.<<<

7075 is heat treated to get it to that state so it is no different than depending on heat treated piece of steel. You can check the aluminum standards data for the expected hardness and test it.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

>>>The receiver is of 7075 aluminium alloy, which in the right version and state of temper can have the tensile and yield strength of some steels. But you can't see a state of temper.<<<

7075 is heat treated to get it to that state so it is no different than depending on heat treated piece of steel. You can check the aluminum standards data for the expected hardness and test it.

So is toughened glass, but the results and the way the process produces them are different. If one treatment for 7075 was superior in all respects the others would die off. Considerations which cause them to remain in use are corrosion resistance, ease of working, elongation before fracture, etc. All Yildiz say is that it is 7075, and suitable for shotgun use, and it is unlikely that they will want to get involved with rifle conversion projects.

[rking22]

That is the reason I consider it a requirement to stay within the design spec of the action in use. The Yildiz was designed for the pressure and chamber dia of the 410 3 inch shell. That yields a maximum "head thrust" applied to the action, smaller head area can use a higher pressure, larger case head has to be lower pressure. Still have to respect the thickness of the standing breach , so even thou a 5.7x28 might make the grade on this count it may be too much for the fireing pin bushing to support. That is a simplistic approach but without real engineering specs on the action I will not exceed that.

SAAMI Shotgun Pressure Specifications (Maximum Average Pressure in PSI)
All Piezo measurements unless specified)
Cartridge Maximum Average pressure

.410 Bore 2 1/2" 12,500
.410 Bore 3" 13,500 PSI

Basic chamber bore is.505 so 3.14159*.2525*.2525*13500=2704PSI of thrust =design limit

Since the 44-40 has a slightly smaller chamber ia at .4711 the max chamber pressure for a yildiz in 44-40 would be 15512PSI,





Actually looks like an interesting idea, since saamii pressure for 44-40 is 13000 CUP, be careful of PSI vs CUP ! I like it ,effective and on the conservative side of prudent :)

Somewhere I read that the Yildiz was a T7 heattreat but I cannot find that reference now. Could have confused it with another also, CRS you know. But the above is a prudent guideline given the unknowns involved, and I agree, Yildiz won't endorse these endevors!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The .44-40 is actually slightly better, relative to the .410, than those figures would suggest. Hard brass clamped firmly to the chamber wall by pressure resists the impact on the standing breech, while plastic or paper do so not at all. It is the inside diameter of the case that counts, as far as resisting pressure is concerned, and it is likely that the brass, being thicker, will also reduce this.

Of course you would have to be sure that nobody in this generation or another would try to make it behave like a .44 Magnum. But short of that I think the .44-40 would be a good conversion. It is higher pressure rifle rounds that strike me as very dubious.

[richhodg66]

I swung by Academy in Topeka on the way home to look at one again. None to be had. Young guy at the counter said they weren't good sellers and didn't know when they'd have anymore. Might have to jump on one next time.

They had what I think is the same gun in 12 gauge, so I looked at it. Holy smokes that thing is light, probably didn't weigh much more than the .410! My shoulder hurt just thinking about shooting that thing.

Not sure how close the nearest other Academy sports is from here, but now I think I'll have to get one or two of them.

[scattershot]

Of course, you could save all the headaches and just shoot .410 slugs out of it.

[EDG]

You are not addressing the fact that the hardness of the alloy is directly related to its strength. Otherwise they would not make millions of airplane parts out of it.
Apparently you are not familiar with aluminum because your argument makes no sense.
Each different temper is designed to vary the strength and elongation of the alloy. Want to know which temper you have? Look at the US Aluminum Association standards handbook.
Read the expected Brinell is 150 or Rockwell is 87. The tensile yield is 73,000 much higher than mild steel. Now if you want to talk about the other tempers there is no point in using a lesser temper. You could just use 6061 -T6 if you were happier with less strength because 6061 is cheaper.

I suggest that you work in the aerospace business a while and maybe you will understand how industry specifies and uses high strength aluminum alloys.
>>>Considerations which cause them to remain in use are corrosion resistance, ease of working, elongation before fracture, etc.<<<
This statement is not true in the sense that you are using it for high strength alloys. Both 6061-T6 and 7075-T6 are wrought materials intended for machining.
If you want more corrosion resistance you chem film it, anodize it or paint it. If you want to bend aluminum you use a different alloy because both of these require huge bend radii if you bend them. You want 5052-H32 or H34 or 3003 alloys for bending and forming. No one is going to specify a chewing gum soft T0 condition and then try to machine it.
No one uses the high strength alloys in the non heat treated conditions because they offer nothing. They are too gummy to machine and have little strength compared to a cheaper lower priced grade that is heat treated. Sure those other tempers of 7075 grades are in the catalog and that is about the only place you will find them too.
Using your logic why would anyone trust a steel part either?
The manufacturer can tell you anything or does that only apply to aluminum?


So is toughened glass, but the results and the way the process produces them are different. If one treatment for 7075 was superior in all respects the others would die off. Considerations which cause them to remain in use are corrosion resistance, ease of working, elongation before fracture, etc. All Yildiz say is that it is 7075, and suitable for shotgun use, and it is unlikely that they will want to get involved with rifle conversion projects.

[richhodg66]

Of course, you could save all the headaches and just shoot .410 slugs out of it.

And incur all the headaches of hard to find, expensive ammo and crappy accuracy plus more recoil and noise than I want. The whole Rook rifle concept is what I'm after, I have better shotguns for shooting slugs.

Thinking .22 Hornet, .32 S&W Long or maybe .25-20.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

You are not addressing the fact that the hardness of the alloy is directly related to its strength. Otherwise they would not make millions of airplane parts out of it.
Apparently you are not familiar with aluminum because your argument makes no sense.
Each different temper is designed to vary the strength and elongation of the alloy. Want to know which temper you have? Look at the US Aluminum Association standards handbook.
Read the expected Brinell is 150 or Rockwell is 87. The tensile yield is 73,000 much higher than mild steel. Now if you want to talk about the other tempers there is no point in using a lesser temper. You could just use 6061 -T6 if you were happier with less strength because 6061 is cheaper.

I suggest that you work in the aerospace business a while and maybe you will understand how industry specifies and uses high strength aluminum alloys.
>>>Considerations which cause them to remain in use are corrosion resistance, ease of working, elongation before fracture, etc.<<<
This statement is not true in the sense that you are using it for high strength alloys. Both 6061-T6 and 7075-T6 are wrought materials intended for machining.
If you want more corrosion resistance you chem film it, anodize it or paint it. If you want to bend aluminum you use a different alloy because both of these require huge bend radii if you bend them. You want 5052-H32 or H34 or 3003 alloys for bending and forming. No one is going to specify a chewing gum soft T0 condition and then try to machine it.
No one uses the high strength alloys in the non heat treated conditions because they offer nothing. They are too gummy to machine and have little strength compared to a cheaper lower priced grade that is heat treated. Sure those other tempers of 7075 grades are in the catalog and that is about the only place you will find them too.
Using your logic why would anyone trust a steel part either?
The manufacturer can tell you anything or does that only apply to aluminum?

It isn't so much a matter of what you can do with this alloy, as what Yildiz have done with it.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

And incur all the headaches of hard to find, expensive ammo and crappy accuracy plus more recoil and noise than I want. The whole Rook rifle concept is what I'm after, I have better shotguns for shooting slugs.

Thinking .22 Hornet, .32 S&W Long or maybe .25-20.

Yes, unless you have some reason to keep the versatility of the shotgun (lightweight camping in small game country, perhaps), the rifle conversion will do a far better job of shooting a solid missile.

[Mk42gunner]

And incur all the headaches of hard to find, expensive ammo and crappy accuracy plus more recoil and noise than I want. The whole Rook rifle concept is what I'm after, I have better shotguns for shooting slugs.

Thinking .22 Hornet, .32 S&W Long or maybe .25-20.

The .32 S&W Long in a rifle is a better fit to the Rook rifle concept, at least in my mind.

Of course it isn't my money, so it is easy to have an opinion.

Robert

[richhodg66]

I was looking at this little Beretta (I think) that the Yildiz seems to be patterned after. This one is a 20 with a very short stock. It is called a Dakin(?) on the receiver, but looks like the Berettas mentioned earlier.

Anyway, thinking this, with one of the barell inserts mentioned earlier in .32 S&W Long and they figure out how to drill and tap the vent rib on the barrel would make a trim little Rook rifle and still be a shotgun if need be. I have one of those fine old Redfields they made with 3/4" tubes that happens to be a medium eye relief around here somewhere. This idea is beginning to take shape.

[Mk42gunner]

Don't quote me on this, but I think there were several Italian gunmakers that made folding shotguns.

Robert