Anybody loading 11.7x56r danish ammo with black powder????

[texasnative46]

Friends,

I got so much good advice when I asked about 12.7x44R Norwegian loads that I'm now asking about favorite loads for 11.7x56R for my "new to me" M-1867/96 Danish Armory RB 3-band musket.
(It has a 35.25 inch barrel., btw with adjustable sights in meters.)

Anyone loading a big-game hunting load at about 1300-1400FPS with black powder in the Danish service cartridge?
(I'm told that the Army Standard Load was 1370FPS.)

IF you are, WHICH bullet mold do you like in 375-420 grains?
(I'm looking at the LEE 405 grain HB bullet mold, as a few folks on another forum said that it works well in the Danish RB.)

What BP load do you like BEST?
Also, your favorite primer for FFg BP?

THANKS, satx

[curator]

I load for my Danish Roller using black powder. I do like the Lee .459-405 HB boolit which drops from my mould at .462 when cast of 40-1 lead/tin alloy. I load this over 55 grains of OE 1 1/2Fg and a .125 hard card wad with 1/8 inch compression. It shoots quite accurately. My most accurate load uses the same powder charge and a paper-patched 475 grain 457121PH boolit. These drop from my mould about .455 and two wraps of #9 onionskin paper brings them up to .463, These do have a bit more recoil but groups are tighter out to 200 yards and more. I use Winchester Large rifle primers in all my BP loads.

[texasnative46]

curator,

THANKS.

yours, satx

[texasnative46]

Curator,

Btw, I took your advice & ordered the 405 grain HB bullet mold for my 1878-built M-1867 RB. - It should be in SA on Monday. = THANKS!!!

The 405 grain HB mold arrived. - I'm IMPRESSED.

yours, tn46

[17nut]

Even the Danes didnt do the 56mm with black!



Here is a resume i wrote some time ago to adress the confusion about chamber length:

Danish Rolling Blocks and chamber length confusion

The original Danish RB round was 11.4x41.5R rimfire. Load was 52grains in 1867 and changed to 60 grains of BP behind a 385 grains boolit.
Denmark ordered 20000 rifles from Remington to be delivered within 6 months. That backfired for Remington because Sheffield could not deliver enough barrels.
The Danes got to make their own RB’s without paying royalty as a result.
5 production lines was set up and each of them had a master gunsmith which was in charge of quality. Each smith had to manufacture his own set of Go-No Go gauges and have them certified by the factories master controller. This becomes important later!
All is well and from 1867 to 1878 @78500 RB’s are manufactured.
In 1884 the Danes start to develop a replacement for the RB and at the same time they start to ponder a way to modernise the RB’s. In 1896 they were officially converted to: Smokeless, centerfire and jacketed bullets.
And now comes problems in heaps falling on the arsenal, Because of the 5 different Go-No Go tools it is clear that bores range from 11.25mm~.443” to 11.75mm~.463”. You can’t design a standard round with jacketed and smokeless that will work within those ranges with any kind of accuracy and without huge variations in pressure. So a LARGE long throat is devised to size the bullets for the smaller bores.
That is why some Danes will chamber a 45-90 without problems and why the 11.4x56R thought exists.

In the development of the final cartridge choices in smokeless was dismal and experiments led to the 56mm cartridge. But that meant grinding down the hammer for chamber access and that was dismissed along with slower reloading of the rifle. Only @200 rifles were ever converted and they can be easily identified by the ground down hammer.

[curator]

When loading the Lee .459/405HB boolit, I cast them from 40/1 lead tin alloy and lube then as cast with 50/50 bee's wax/lard lube and 60 grains of Goex FFg. I also use a 1/8 card wad over powder with 1/8 inch compression. Accuracy is good. I also use a "duplex" load of 3 grains of SR4759 and 55 grains of Olde Eynsford 1 1/2Fg and the above wad/bullet combo. Smokeless loads of 23 grains of SR4759, dacron filler and this same boolit gives good accuracy, less recoil and no need to clean bore afterwards, I usually end my BP shooting with 3 or 4 shots with smokeless loads to give me a bit of slack between shooting and cleaning. Danish rollers rock!

[texasnative46]

17nut,

Do you know what the original Danish 11.7x56R smokeless load was?? - I would be very interested in a description of the bullet & the kind of powder/number of grains used.

yours, tex

[Drm50]

I had one, got a bunch of brass with it. Ordered a mold and traded gun off before mold arrived.
was going to load it with H2400. I let dies and brass go with gun. Never got to fire a shot. I
think load I found was out of Cartridges of the World,by Barnes.

[texasnative46]

Drm50,

My copy of Cartridges of the World doesn't even list the 11.7x56R, though it does have the 11.7x51R, with BP & smokeless loads.

yours. tex

[earshot]

I have a 1867 danish RB for several years now.I use Wano Jagdschwartzpulver PP in starline .45-70 cases with a Lee 405 and it shoots just fine till 50 metres. I charge the case far enough so the base of the bullet compresses ever so slightly. But my favorite load uses only about 70% of this charge with the remainder of the case (to base of bullet) filled with semolina. I have tried wads but did not see any advantages so I do not use thoem anymore....less hassle. Primers used are whatever I have laying around.

[17nut]

17nut,

Do you know what the original Danish 11.7x56R smokeless load was?? - I would be very interested in a description of the bullet & the kind of powder/number of grains used.

yours, tex

It is impossible to say now as most all militaries was fiddling with smokeless by the end of the 1880's and most of that knowledge was/is proprietary and long gone.

As for the bullet here is what it ended up with:

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/AMA%20bog/patron5_zpszzs9ujhp.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/Chickenthief/media/Skydning/AMA%20bog/patron5_zpszzs9ujhp.jpg.html)

A 25gram~386gr cupro-nickel over dead soft lead bullet propelled by 2,4gram~37grain of the finest Danish made nitrocellulose/nitroglycerine mix of unknown compound!
Max chamber pressure is 1600kg/cm2~22800psi.

In the birth of smokeless powder they werent big on details you know ;-)

As they got better at retarding pure nitrocellulose burning speeds they could taylor powder to the given load and cartridge volume.
When it was pure they would end up destroying a BP RB in less than 500 shots.

[texasnative46]

17nut,

THANKS for the diagram. - This is one of those times that I wish that I could read Danish.

yours, tex

[Tom Herman]

It's close enough to German that I can make out about 80% of what is being said, and infer 95% of it.
Thanks for posting!

-Tom

[earshot]

Anybody have a danish RB that shoots well at 100 meters? If so, what bullet are you using?

[texasnative46]

earshot,

Fwiw, I've talked by email & phone to at least 6-8 people who have EXCELLENT success with the 405 grain HB Lee cast bullet. = Several said they were routinely getting 5-8 shot groups at 100 yards of about 3 inches. OR as a gent from NW OK said, "within less than a 1/2 minute of WT deer chest & generally considerably less at 125 long steps."

Once I can find a person who allows BP rifles on their range & that has "known distances" & proper targets, I'll report here, as I have the same mold.
(Several ranges in this area simply said, "NO." when I asked about target-shooting with .45-70 & .50-70 BP rifles on their range.)

yours, tex

[Mark Daiute]

earshot,

Fwiw, I've talked by email & phone to at least 6-8 people who have EXCELLENT success with the 405 grain HB Lee cast bullet. = Several said they were routinely getting 5-8 shot groups at 100 yards of about 3 inches. OR as a gent from NW OK said, "within less than a 1/2 minute of WT deer chest & generally considerably less at 125 long steps."

Once I can find a person who allows BP rifles on their range & that has "known distances" & proper targets, I'll report here, as I have the same mold.
(Several ranges in this area simply said, "NO." when I asked about target-shooting with .45-70 & .50-70 BP rifles on their range.)

yours, tex

I wonder what the issue is?

[Many Klatch]

My Danish Rolling block was originally built in 1874 with the 11.7X56R chambering. However, they were imported into the US back in the 60's and 70's and were rechambered for 45-70 "kind of". Turns out the chamber will take 45-70 brass but is still just a tad larger. So the brass needs to be fireformed and then only used in this particular gun. I was getting terrible accuracy at 50 yards with the .458 standard bullet. So I slugged the barrel and found that it was .460. I got a Lee mold and a .460 die and I was able to shoot a 21 shot group at 50 yards that fits into a coffee can lid. My load for the moment is a 405 grain .460 bullet with SPG lube over 60.1 grains of lightly compressed 2F Goex powder. I use a plastic overpowder wad and a paper wad over the overpowder wad. I use an 18" drop tube to load the powder.

The rest of the story on these guns is that Denmark bought the rights to make their own guns. They set up 3 lines to make them. Apparently the go/no go dies were slightly different so the barrels may vary a bit.

The gun is very well built, the bore looks like new. It obviously was well cared for in the Danish armories for almost 100 years before it was sold to the US importer. It is a lot of fun to shoot and it has been fun trying to figure out it's inconsistencies.

BTW, I do not resize or neck any of the brass. After I shoot a round I drop it into a mix of water and lemon juice and salt. When I get home I dry the brass, deprime and then run it through a polisher. I only use a depriming tool for the brass preparation. I prime and then fill the case with about 61 grains of black powder. I have used 1.5F but now am using 2F. I put the plastic wad over the powder and then use a press to push the powder down about 1/4". The paper wad is dropped on top of the plastic wad to keep the lubricant from "gluing" the plastic wad to the bottom of the hollow based bullet. I simply push the bullet into the brass and seat it on the wads with thumb pressure.

I have gotten good accuracy at 100 yard with this load. Keeping 20 shots inside of an 8" circle. Now I am trying to figure out how to use the original sight on gongs at 200, 300, 400 and 500 meters. That should keep me busy for another couple of years.

[texasnative46]

Mark Daiute,

I really couldn't say what their "problem" with black is. - SOME "representatives" just said "NO" & 2 others weren't even "polite". - Another guy simply "hung up" without answering my question.

yours, satx

[texasnative46]

Many Klatch,

THANKS for the info.

yours, satx