Taurus .380 jams

[fatelk]

I have this little Taurus 738 .380 pistol. I bought it new a few years ago and have shot it some off and on.

A couple years ago I had trouble with it jamming and found that I wasn't crimping enough, or actually removing enough of the bell on the brass, and the empty coming out of the chamber would apparently hit the edge of the brass on the next round in the magazine, pop out of the extractor and sit in the chamber to block the next round.

At that time I found that putting a pretty good taper crimp on the lead bullets solved the problem. Recently I decided to load up some jacketed bullets I've had sitting around for years. The exact same malfunction has surfaced again, and I've using as much taper crimp as possible on jacketed bullets. I then shot some factory rounds that I had and they jammed also, so it's clearly a gun problem, I assume an extractor problem. The extractor tension seems fine and I'm not seeing any damage to it. Any ideas?

[aspangler]

Clean it good with plenty of solvent. Oil lightly and try again. Mine did that after shooting lead for a while.

[Walkingwolf]

I had similar problems with an 1894 Marlin, and 44 magnum with black powder fowling. Putting a heavier crimp on a bullet solves one problem but creates another. The case if pushed down, which is the way most crimps work, deforms the case just enough to cause problems. I found that the FCD solved the problem completely, and suspect it would for you also.

Keep in mind that many of the once fired brass out there is from SD ammo, and may have a significant bulge that will cause problems. Using a bulge buster will get rid of that bulge.

[fatelk]

Clean it good with plenty of solvent. Oil lightly and try again. Mine did that after shooting lead for a while.

When I think about it, that makes sense. I looked at it every which way last night and couldn't figure it out, since the brass would have to drop slightly as it was coming out of the chamber, in order to catch on the next round. I couldn't see how it would, since there was plenty of tension on the extractor.

If the extractor is gummed up and sticky (which it is) it may not provide enough tension at the instant the slide starts to move to keep the brass from slipping down enough to catch on the next round. Interesting.

I'll clean it thoroughly and try it out when I get a chance, and let you know if that does it. Thanks!

[montana_charlie]

I then shot some factory rounds that I had and they jammed also, so it's clearly a gun problem,
Could be a magazine problem ...

[gnostic]

It sounds like a bullet seating depth issue. Not enough crimp, in my experience, causes the slide to refuse to go into battery and locks-up the slide.

[fatelk]

I don't think it's a seating depth, magazine, or crimp problem at this point. When it "jams", an empty shell is sitting in the chamber, and the slide is open, trying to push a live round up the feed ramp against the empty. The malfunction is the extractor somehow letting go of the empty as the slide recoils.

I believe that this is due to the rim of the empty striking the case mouth of the next live round as it goes back. I think the only way it can do this is if there's insufficient extractor tension at that moment, allowing it to slip slightly to where it can contact the next round. It's not a hot load. The brass drops right out and is undamaged when I clear it. It happens with factory ammo too now.

That's my theory anyhow. Looks like it's my own darn fault for letting it get too dirty. Come to think of it, it only started doing this after a couple hundred rounds of cast reloads.

[montana_charlie]

Could be a magazine problem ...
I take it back. Almost certainly a lack of care problem.

[fatelk]

I take it back. Almost certainly a lack of care problem.

In my own defense a little, it wasn't THAT dirty, and I have cleaned it a few times, just not scrubbed out under the extractor.

Now that I get home and clean it up, I'm not sure that was even the problem. The extractor was dirty, but I sure couldn't detect any loss of tension or "snap" in the way it functions. I guess the proof is in the pudding, so I'll try it out when I get to the range next.

[fatelk]

After taking the extractor out and looking it over carefully, I think there's something odd going on. There is what appears to be unusual wear on the little loaded chamber indicator. I just did a search looking for photos of the extractor assembly and came up with several other instances of people who have had the exact same problem with the 738 and sent it back for repairs. I think I may call Taurus tomorrow.

[Big Dangle]

I started having issues with extracting with my Taurus after years of just reloads, mainly 800x. Its pretty dirty stuff in a 9mm, i pulled the slide all down and the firing pin channel and the section under the extractor was dirty but not bad. Any way after cleaning it all out and it works just like new.

[Blackwater]

All autos are ammo sensitive. If the ammo's not right, they simply will NOT feed. And OAL and crimp are by FAR the two worst offenders in causing your problems. Have you taken the barrel out and done a plunk test with your reloads in it? If the loads don't fit easily and well and fall into the chamber easily and stop at the right spot, with the base even with the rear of the barrel, it's definitely your ammo.

I'd do that before sending it back to Taurus. I have one of those and it's been a real surprise for me. Killed 4 rattlesnakes with it in the past year and each was a one shot kill. It's accurate and shoots to point of aim with the sights. But these little miniguns are THE most sensitive of ALL autos, so they're extra challenging to get our loads right. If it were me, I'd reload 4 lots at 4 different OAL's, and try them. I'd vary OAL by @ .025" for each lot, and load a dozen or 20 of each load and see how they fed. Make sure, as above, you're not running the crimp down too far, and bulging the case neck in the process. This for these tiny little pistols is a good way to get malfunctions.

These miniguns are neat and have a definite place for us, but we DO have to be VERY picky and professional about how we load for them if we expect them to function well and consistently. It's just a matter of "sorting it out" as the old Brits used to say. And that takes experimentation. And each bullet you load will likely require its own particular OAL for good feeding.

I think you just need to do a little more work with your loads. I love my little 739 TCP. The only gun I've seen outshoot it is the Sig #238 (?) or whatever it is. It's the little miniaturized 1911 style single action. That thing has been shooting near 1" groups at 20 yds! My Taurus will stay inside 3" at that distance easily, but won't shoot with the Sig. I just like the DA trigger pull for a pocket gun. Call me old fashioned and "safety conscious?"

[fatelk]

Well I got a chance to stop by the range and put a couple mags through it after cleaning it thoroughly. It still jams with both factory ammo and reloads. I'm pretty sure that it's an extractor problem. It's not a feed problem. It feeds just fine, whenever there's not an empty in the way. The rounds are crimped fine, they plunk fine. I appreciate the troubleshooting advice. It's good stuff, but I checked that already.

Here's what I've figured out so far: the empty brass is clearly hitting the case mouth of the next live round and being popped out of the extractor to stay in the chamber. The only way that can happen is if the empty is too far down as it's pulled back, otherwise it cannot come in contact with the next round. There's some odd wear on the end of the loaded chamber indicator where it contacts the brass. I'll post a photo when I get a chance. The indicator barely comes out now when it's loaded, and it looks to me like it pushes the brass down as it extracts. Actually I think I might just remove the indicator and see how it functions without it.

[fatelk]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?lc=172_6KDf76WoOiNr8JFgzkOd192yZlXKTKWxVUyk2 kg&v=lJYx98yQSUI

This is what mine does. From more looking around on line, it seems that this is a pretty common problem.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

A magazine problem. The lips are open a little too wide. This allows the top round in the magazine to get in the way of the empty being pulled out of the chamber. Pinch the lips together in a vice or even using pliers/vicegrips. Go SLOW and check often. The same should happen when cycling the slide by hand.

[montana_charlie]

Try this ...
Chamber a live round, then put the empty magazine in the well.
Fire the round.
Did it eject as it should?

[fatelk]

Did it eject as it should?
Yes, every time. That was one of the first things I tried.

No, definitely not a magazine issue. When the slide is closed the top round in the mag rides against the underside of the slide not even touching the mag feed lips. That, and I have two mags that both work the same.

I just got back from the range again. I took out the extractor this morning and removed the loaded chamber indicator from it. When I put the bare extractor back in I found that it had no tension at all on a cartridge base. Apparently the only tension was coming from the LCI. I modified it so that it had what felt like pretty good tension, and headed to the range. I shot 30 rounds, and had 2 FTE malfunctions. Still not good enough but a dramatic improvement over what it was doing before.

I plan on calling Taurus on Monday, see if they'll send me a replacement extractor/LCI.

[Walkingwolf]

I don't think it's a seating depth, magazine, or crimp problem at this point. When it "jams", an empty shell is sitting in the chamber, and the slide is open, trying to push a live round up the feed ramp against the empty. The malfunction is the extractor somehow letting go of the empty as the slide recoils.

I believe that this is due to the rim of the empty striking the case mouth of the next live round as it goes back. I think the only way it can do this is if there's insufficient extractor tension at that moment, allowing it to slip slightly to where it can contact the next round. It's not a hot load. The brass drops right out and is undamaged when I clear it. It happens with factory ammo too now.

That's my theory anyhow. Looks like it's my own darn fault for letting it get too dirty. Come to think of it, it only started doing this after a couple hundred rounds of cast reloads.

Try some Buffolo Bore ammo, and see if that cures your problem.

Here is the thing about the extractor, some semi autos do not even have an extractor, I believe the little Beretta. The extractor serves two purposes, it removes the cartridge when the gun is not fired, and it helps send the shell out in a direction after the shell hits the ejector. My wife's SMC 380 has a very loose extractor, because it is the same extractor for a 9X18. It works but is loose, her gun has never had a problem ejecting.

It is simple the slide moving rear is from the force of the empty case under pressure. Too little pressure and the slide will not travel back far enough to eject. Common problem with light loads. Have you chrono'd your loads?

Another suggestion that works with break in of new guns is to leave the slide back for a couple weeks. If yours does not have a slide stop you could probably keep it open with a strong tie wrap.

[montana_charlie]

Try this ...
Chamber a live round, then put the empty magazine in the well.
Fire the round.
Did it eject as it should?Yes, every time. That was one of the first things I tried.
But, when you fire the pistol with a full magazine, the empty doesn't eject?

[fatelk]

Correct. It leaves the empty in the chamber, the slide recoils completely to the read to pick up a new round, which it jams up under the empty in the chamber.

It does this with factory ammo and jacketed bullet reloads. It works fine with my cast reloads that I put a heavy taper crimp on. It didn't do this when it was new. It looks to me that when the slide starts to move back upon recoil, for whatever reason the base of the empty is slightly too low on the breach face. The edge of the rim contacts the top of the case mouth on the next round, which pops it out of the extractor, leaving it in the chamber.

The question is, why is it contacting the case mouth? When it started doing it a while back I thought I wasn't crimping enough so I started using the heavy taper crimp, which seemed to solve the problem. It looks like that just masked the problem. Now I've adjusted the extractor to hold the empty tighter and that has helped, but I'm not so sure that was the best solution either. As Walkingwolf pointed out, should extractor tension be that important?


It is simple the slide moving rear is from the force of the empty case under pressure. Too little pressure and the slide will not travel back far enough to eject. Common problem with light loads. Have you chrono'd your loads?
Actually this gun is a locked breech recoil operated, not a blowback, but the loads are fine. I have chronographed them and they also eject perfectly and lock the slide open on the last round in the magazine.

[GunGuy2756]

Could be a magazine problem ...

I agree. I would try another magazine before I did anything else. My friend has a 1934 Beretta 380 that had function problems until he replaced the magazine. It runs just fine now.

[Walkingwolf]

Correct. It leaves the empty in the chamber, the slide recoils completely to the read to pick up a new round, which it jams up under the empty in the chamber.

It does this with factory ammo and jacketed bullet reloads. It works fine with my cast reloads that I put a heavy taper crimp on. It didn't do this when it was new. It looks to me that when the slide starts to move back upon recoil, for whatever reason the base of the empty is slightly too low on the breach face. The edge of the rim contacts the top of the case mouth on the next round, which pops it out of the extractor, leaving it in the chamber.

The question is, why is it contacting the case mouth? When it started doing it a while back I thought I wasn't crimping enough so I started using the heavy taper crimp, which seemed to solve the problem. It looks like that just masked the problem. Now I've adjusted the extractor to hold the empty tighter and that has helped, but I'm not so sure that was the best solution either. As Walkingwolf pointed out, should extractor tension be that important?


Actually this gun is a locked breech recoil operated, not a blowback, but the loads are fine. I have chronographed them and they also eject perfectly and lock the slide open on the last round in the magazine.

The slide can pickup a round without going fully to the rear. It is intended to go past the ejector, clear the case, and then pickup the next round. Not sure how well your gun has been broken in, but what you describe is a common, very common problem with new guns. Most times plus P ammo cures it until the gun is broken in. The slide will not go to the rear UNLESS the case is pushing it back. What happens is the case is not going back enough to hit the ejector, and then pushing the case back in, and picking up a new round.

Try hotter ammo. Or maybe grip the gun tighter.

[fatelk]

The slide will not go to the rear UNLESS the case is pushing it back.
I'm not sure that you fully understand how a recoil operated handgun works. That may be true for a blowback operated .380 handgun, but the Taurus TCP is recoil operated. On a short-recoil operated handgun, the breech is locked when the slide is closed. The recoil from the shot will cause the barrel and slide to move rearward together. The barrel will tilt on it's linkage, unlocking the breech. The barrel then stops but the slide continues to move rearward from inertia.

The gun is well broke in at this point, several hundred rounds. It's not the ammo, it's not my grip, it's not the magazine. I could explain why, but I would just be repeating myself.


What happens is the case is not going back enough to hit the ejector, and then pushing the case back in, and picking up a new round.
This would be quite the magic trick. Try to picture how it could possibly push the empty back into the chamber, let go of it, then back up to grab a fresh round from the magazine. It's physically impossible.

Sorry, I don't mean to sound ungrateful; I know you all are trying to help. I'm just a little frustrated trying to understand exactly why it was doing this. What I did with the extractor helped a lot but I'm not sure precisely why. I'm not a newbie by the way. I've been tinkering with and fixing guns for three decades or so, even worked for a gunsmith for a couple years long ago. That doesn't mean I think I know it all, by any means. I know some of you guys here have forgotten more than I'll ever know. That's why I was askin'. :)

[egg250]

Most failure to eject issues are problems with the extractor. The problem you describe, though, seems to be the magazine is positioning the next round too high. When the empty case is extracted it hits the next round and is bumped off the extractor. Maybe

I'd recheck the extractor hook to ensure proper fit and angles, first. I might have missed it in the thread, does it fail to eject the last round as well? I'm really thinking the empty case is simply falling off the breech face once it clears the chamber.

If that checks out, try to observe the action as a case is extracted. Does it contact the top round in the magazine? If so, one option is to reposition the magazine lower in the frame by filing a bit off the slot for the magazine lock. Or you could refit the magazine lips to keep the next round a bit lower, but I wouldn't recommend this one.

[montana_charlie]

It looks to me that when the slide starts to move back upon recoil, for whatever reason the base of the empty is slightly too low on the breach face.
Initially, the empty case is in the chamber, where it has just expanded to fit snuggly in the hole.
Until it has been mostly removed from that close-fitting hole, I don't see how the base could be 'too low on the breech face'.

Considering the length of the empty case:
- Is the mouth still in the chamber when the head hits the next round in the magazine?
- Is the mouth still in the chamber when the head hits the ejector (with an empty magazine)?
- What is the difference in travel distance between those two conditions?

[fatelk]

Until it has been mostly removed from that close-fitting hole, I don't see how the base could be 'too low on the breech face'.
You are correct. The case is about 2/3 out of the chamber when the bottom of the base is at a point where I think it strikes the case mouth of the next live round in the magazine. The only way it could be too low on the breech face would be if the barrel itself tilted too far, and that's something I don't want to think about.


- Is the mouth still in the chamber when the head hits the next round in the magazine?
Yes, by my measurements, .22" of case mouth is still in the chamber at the point that the base makes contact with the case mouth of the next round in the magazine.


- Is the mouth still in the chamber when the head hits the ejector (with an empty magazine)?
No, it is not. There is plenty of room to eject even a live round. I have fired it many times with one round over an empty magazine and it has never failed to eject completely and lock back the slide.


- What is the difference in travel distance between those two conditions?
.58"

Here are some photos.
The first one shows what a jam looks like.

The second one shows why I have ruled out a magazine malfunction. As you can see, the top round in the magazine rides against the underside of the slide, well below the feed lips, until the slide has come fully back to eject the empty and pick up a fresh round. Magazine feed lips are suspect when the issue is a feeding problem. This is pretty clearly and extraction/ejection issue. It's never had a problem feeding.
That, and the fact that I have two magazines, one used quite a bit and the other like new.

The third photo shows the position on the breech face when the barrel has unlocked. You can see that the rim doesn't protrude below the slide to make contact with the next round at this point.

The fourth photo shows what seems to be happening as far as I can tell. The rim protrudes below the slide, makes contact with the next case mouth, and is popped out of the extractor to be left in the chamber. What I think lends credence to this theory is the fact that my cast reloads with a heavy crimp do not malfunction, presumably because there is minimal case mouth to strike. (Yes, I know this kind of crimp is not right for this kind of cartridge)

I guess I'm left with the extractor, unless someone can come up with something simple that makes sense and makes me feel really foolish for missing it. :) The fact that my tinkering with the extractor made a big difference so far has me focused on the extractor pretty strong.

[montana_charlie]

I went 'Googling' to see what I could find on your problem. You have probably hit the same sites and youtubes that I did.
One guy said he sent his gun back to Taurus, and it came back to him with a new extractor. Trouble is, they must not have test fired it because his problem was still there.

Here is another guy who has sent the gun in for service ...
http://www.christiangunowner.com/taurus-pt738.html

I don't have anything new, and it's unlikely that any idea I get will do you any good.

Good luck ...

[fatelk]

I must be getting somewhere with the extractor. I loaded up 50 rounds of cast today, with just a normal taper crimp (didn't want to waste more of my JHPs). My son and I ran out to the range this afternoon, and I blazed through the whole box with only one jam. The only difference this time is that I cleaned up and sharpened the extractor with a diamond file. It's getting there, quite convinced now that it's an extractor problem. I think I'll call Taurus tomorrow and see if they'll send me a new extractor.

I have lost some faith in it's durability and reliability, though. I rarely carry and I've never packed this one anyhow.

Thanks everyone. I really do appreciate all the input and ideas!

[Blackwater]

Since I have one, I've watched this thread closely for tips on mine. It's the nature of autos that the smaller they get, the more narrow the range of ammo they'll shoot reliably, and things like OAL become increasingly important. I was about to suggest you try filing a slight "hook" on the extractor when you posted your last remark. I think you may well be onto the final solution with your efforts.

Also, since the failures to eject started after a number of rounds, I can't help but wonder if the extractor isn't made out of too soft and flexible a metal? Those little guns suffer quite a bit of stress and pressure in their functioning, and that extractor is subjected to some very quick stresses. This is just a thought, and I don't know any way to check it out short of a spectrometer test, which would ruin the part for further use. It'd be a labor of love, but I wonder if a new one might not be fashionable with some good, spring steel? You've really got me thinking on this matter, and that's just an idea, not really a suggestion, but it's a thought that isn't going away for me. These little guns are "last ditch" self defense items, so they HAVE to work reliably, or they're mostly just an expensive paper weight.

Thanks for the posts and great descriptions of your problems and process. These things CAN make a BIG difference, even if it's not a regular occurance. You've sure got me thinking about mine!

[country gent]

Spring tension on the extractor, poor immproper angles. rounded edges on the extractor, and length hieght if a link system, all have an effect on this. It sounds like a combimation of a light sticky extractor couple with a slight timing issue. The barrel needs to drop at a certain point in the cycle to soon and it can cause problems. If possible try a few layers of tape in the mg latch cut out to hold mag slightly lower. Not trying to be nasty but on a semiauto everything has to work together and at the right time in the cycle for reliability. I have several 1911s and other semi autos that will feed empty cases from the magazine reliably. Look for burrs restricting free movement of the extrctor, Tight spots that make stiff movement. Polish sides and surfaces lightly on a piece of leather to remove fine burrs and lightly polish rough areas if there are any. Also look at the rims of fired brass for dings tears burrs that werent there.

[montana_charlie]

I think I'll call Taurus tomorrow and see if they'll send me a new extractor.
Unable to let it go, I downloaded the TCP manual to see how the extractor is configured.

While looking at the related parts, I found that the manual has this ...

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/montana_charlie/Extractor%20Kit_zpstriawrwd.jpg


If you have not yet called Taurus, you will probably find this helpful.

[fatelk]

Also, since the failures to eject started after a number of rounds, I can't help but wonder if the extractor isn't made out of too soft and flexible a metal?
I wondered that too, until I filed on it. It took a really sharp new file to cut it at all. The loaded chamber indicator (part#26 above) seems to be softer though, but it doesn't really have any stress on it.


Spring tension on the extractor, poor immproper angles. rounded edges on the extractor, and length hieght if a link system, all have an effect on this.
The linkage on this gun that determines barrel drop is in the barrel lug and the takedown pin. My theory was that the barrel drops ever so slightly too low, resulting in the empty case base contact with the next case mouth causing the problem, but I can't see any sign of wear on any surface that would cause that. A tighter, sharper extractor might grip the rim better to get it past the "bump" without letting go. I did notice that the extractor seems to stick out a little longer than necessary, creating a bit of a gap between the breech face and the rim, but as hard as the extractor is I doubt it has stretched.

I dunno. As common as this particular malfunction seems to be with this particular model, I suspect it's design related. I'll keep fiddling with the extractor when I get time and let you all know if I figure anything out definitively. I was comparing it to a CZ75 extractor earlier as regards to shape and tension, and see a couple very minor things I might try.

Thanks for the post and drawing Charlie. It helps to know the part numbers.

[Walkingwolf]

The same forces that cause the ejecta of a firearm (the projectile(s), propellant gas, wad, sabot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabot), etc.) to move down the barrel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrel_%28firearms%29) also cause all or a portion of the firearm to move in the opposite direction. The result is required by the conservation of momentum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_momentum) and is expressed in the formula:
Ejecta momentum = Recoiling momentum which by the definition of momentum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum) is calculated by:
Ejecta mass × ejecta velocity = recoiling mass × recoil velocity In non-recoil-operated firearms, it is generally the entire firearm that recoils. However, in recoil-operated firearms, only a portion of the firearm recoils while inertia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertia) holds another portion motionless relative to a mass such as the ground, a ship's gun mount, or a human holding the firearm. The moving and the motionless masses are coupled by a spring that absorbs the recoil energy as it is compressed by the movement and then expands providing energy for the rest of the operating cycle.
Since there is a minimum momentum required to operate a recoil-operated firearm's action, the cartridge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartridge_%28firearms%29) must generate sufficient recoil to provide that momentum. Therefore, recoil-operated firearms work best with a cartridge that yields a momentum approximately equal to that for which the mechanism was optimized. For example, the M1911 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1911) design with factory springs is optimized for a 230-grain (15 g) bullet at factory velocity. Changes in caliber or drastic changes in bullet weight and/or velocity require modifications to spring weight or slide mass to compensate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil_operation

Or simply Newtons third law. The recoil is created by the expanding gasses causing pressure to drive the bullet down the barrel, which at the same time moves the cartridge case to the rear. The cartridge case is lighter than the bullet so it is the resistance of the slide(weight), spring, and tilting barrel that keeps the case in the chamber until after the bullet exits the barrel. Try a simple experiment, clear your gun, and take a dowel rod and push on the breach through the barrel, your slide WILL move to the rear. This is how "recoil" works.

Unless you have a very dirty chamber your casing is not sticking in the chamber. It is moving to the rear, but not far enough to eject, then when the pressure drops the slide shoves it back in while picking up another cartridge.

[fatelk]

Unless you have a very dirty chamber your casing is not sticking in the chamber. It is moving to the rear, but not far enough to eject, then when the pressure drops the slide shoves it back in while picking up another cartridge.

I'm sorry but I think you're lost here. That is simply and factually not how it works. I don't mean to be rude but if you had the gun in your hand to understand how it functions you would see that that is incorrect.

[Walkingwolf]

This might also help you understand, SAAMI did these demonstrations for firefighters. The reason that ammo in a fire is not the hazard that most people think is exactly why the case is moving to the rear in your firearm after ignition. The lack of restraint of the case makes the ammo detonation weak. The casing is the projectile instead of the bullet. For the bullet to move forward there has to be high enough pressure to drive the bullet forward, exerting the same pressure on the case. Without this there is no recoil, the bullet must move forward to create recoil, and pressure drive it forward while the breach keeps the case in place.

Ammunition causes most feeding, and extraction issues. This is common with Kimbers with a match slide, and heavy recoil spring, every person that has come to me with a Kimber the issue was fixed by simply using +P ammo. They buy a 9mm for less expensive ammo and then the gun will not function.
<br>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SlOXowwC4c

[fatelk]

I'm trying to be nice, but you're kind of embarrassing yourself.

[Walkingwolf]

I'm sorry but I think you're lost here. That is simply and factually not how it works. I don't mean to be rude but if you had the gun in your hand to understand how it functions you would see that that is incorrect.

I suggest you read Newtons third law, it IS exactly how it works. Otherwise your primers would be backing out from the pressure, as they do with unmodified cases used for fast draw competition. It is that case pushing to the rear that keeps the primer from being pushed out at 10K plus PSI. In the case of wax loads the pressure is minimal, so the case does not move to keep the primer in. Primers take very little pressure to be removed in the reloading process. MUCH less than the pressure they are subjected to while being fired with a bullet.

Have you clocked your loads?

[fatelk]

The slide will not go to the rear UNLESS the case is pushing it back. What happens is the case is not going back enough to hit the ejector, and then pushing the case back in, and picking up a new round.

Please explain how the slide picks up a new round without going back enough to hit the ejector, seeing how the base of the new round is behind the ejector? This is simply physically impossible.

As to saying that the slide can't move unless the fired case is physically pushing it: that is just not true. The case is contained in the locked breech as the slide and barrel start to move together. The barrel stops and the slide keeps moving. It has little to do with pressure in the fired case at this point. This is basic stuff.

I'm sorry, I'm done. Do some research. I've spent too much energy on this little project over the weekend, and had a long day at work. I'm tired now.

[Walkingwolf]

Please explain how the slide picks up a new round without going back enough to hit the ejector, seeing how the base of the new round is behind the ejector? This is simply physically impossible.

As to saying that the slide can't move unless the fired case is physically pushing it: that is just not true. The case is contained in the locked breech as the slide and barrel start to move together. The barrel stops and the slide keeps moving. It has little to do with pressure in the fired case at this point. This is basic stuff.

I'm sorry, I'm done. Do some research. I've spent too much energy on this little project over the weekend, and had a long day at work. I'm tired now.
Most times it is picking up the round on the rim. The round is held down by the bottom of the slide, it does not even move up to until the slide goes back far enough. At that point it can either end in three ways, stove pipe, nose dive, and your problem. I highly doubt it is your tilting barrel as the would have never made it out of the factory after test firing. There is so much pressure on the case that it imprints the microscopic features of the breach. Hence the two casings that come with some guns in a little brown envelop, that is the purpose for them is for forensics.

I think your answer is very simple, it takes one hell of a lot of rounds to wear out an extractor. Unless you have been putting a cartridge in the barrel and then letting the slide go forward. This is what I have seen damage most extractors.

I ask again, have you clocked your handloads?

If your gun is malfunctioning I would suspect a broken ejector rather than the extractor. This was a problem for Glocks for the early generations. Problems similar to yours. It also happens with 1911's when the ejector gets damaged. The ejector was changed/extended on 1911's in later models to make ejection more reliable.

[fatelk]

I understand that you are very convinced of how you think it is, and I truly don't intend to be rude. We have a difference of opinion, or rather a difference of understanding. Please accept that you are not going to change my view on this. No hard feelings?

[fatelk]

I ask again, have you clocked your handloads?

Ok, we cross posted, and now I'm irritated. You're darn right I have clocked my loads, as I have said in this thread more than once. You also must have missed where I said that it ejects perfectly over an empty mag and locks the slide open every time without fail. I can't tell if you're really convinced of the nonsense you're telling me, or just messing with me for some reason, but either way I'm getting frustrated and it's not funny. You clearly do not fully understand how these things work.

I've had a long day and I'm tired. And now I'm irritated. Thank you for that. I have a very short ignore list and now you are on it.

[Walkingwolf]

Just send the gun back to Taurus for repairs, the most simple solution. If it still fails then it is not the gun.

[fatelk]

How about you start your own thread and see what others folks here think, people who understand how recoil operated handguns actually work? I guarantee you're going to feel a little silly.

[Walkingwolf]

How about you start your own thread and see what others folks here think, people who understand how recoil operated handguns actually work? I guarantee you're going to feel a little silly.
I am trying to help, but you only want to hear what you want to hear. Why ask for advice? Taurus has a lifetime warranty, if your gun is broke it makes logical sense to let them repair it.

I bought a Glock 22 that broke the frame rail, I sent it to Glock and they had it back to me fixed free of charge less than two weeks. Of course I could of tried to JB weld it instead.

I gave you links that shows just exactly how a firearm works, you ignored them, and tried to insult. I am sorry you are having problems, and I am honestly trying to help. I would try some premium factory ammo, and maybe letting someone else shoot your gun, if you do not want the factory to fix it.

[Walkingwolf]

A little more on how a firearm works from the experts, forensic scientists.http://www.firearmsid.com/A_CCIDImpres.htm

Breech Marks

By far the most common impressed action marks on cartridge cases are breech marks. Most fired cartridge cases are identified as having been fired by a specific firearm through the identification of breech marks.
Very high pressures are generated within a firearm when a cartridge is discharged. These pressures force the bullet from the cartridge case and down the barrel at very high velocities. When a firearm is discharged, the shooter will feel the firearm jump rearward. This rearward movement of the firearm is called recoil. Recoil is for the most part caused by the cartridge case moving rearward as an opposite reaction to the pressures generated to force the bullet down the barrel.

When the head or base of the cartridge case moves rearward, it strikes what is called the breech face of the firearm. The image below shows the breech face of a 12 GAUGE, single-shot shotgun.
http://www.firearmsid.com/jpgs/990900143.jpg

The breech face rests against the head of the cartridge case and holds the cartridge case in the chamber of the firearm. When the head of a cartridge case slams against the breech face, the negative impression of any imperfections in the breech face are stamped into either the primer of the cartridge case or the cartridge case itself. The image below shows the primer of a shotshell fired in the above shotgun.
http://www.firearmsid.com/jpgs/990900142.jpg

Not trying to get you riled, but I believe once you understand the facts you might be able to understand your problem better.

[jcren]

If you haven't, you might try cleaning the chamber with brake cleaner and test firing it "dry". My first 45 I promptly tore down and polished the Heck out of everything and lubed it with the slickest stuff I could find. After many fte jams, I fianally learned that the shell must stick in the chamber momentarily via pressure and friction, and I was allowing the breach to unlock prematurely.

[fatelk]

Yes, you got me riled. I shouldn't have gotten riled. I don't know why I should care what a random stranger on the internet thinks. Now I'm just waiting for a knowlegable person to come along and explain the facts to you, since you won't listen to me.

I had had a good thread going with knowledgable guys with good ideas. In case you didn't notice, I fixed the darn thing! Then you had to come along and AFTER ITS FIXED to rile me up.

I could explain to you, in detail with facts and photos, why you are mistaken here, where you've gone wrong in logic and physics, but I lack the energy.

I have no argument with Newton's laws of motion. I do not disagree that a cartridge case exerts tremendous rearward thrust against a breech face. Those things are not relevant to your argument. What is relevant is that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the mechanics of a recoil operated handgun. What causes the slide to cycle is inertia from the initial thrust of the fired cartridge in the locked chamber, not the continued rearward thrust of the fired cartridge case.

Again, how exactly do you explain the empty case staying on the extractor as it goes back PAST the ejector without ejecting (physically impossible) back far enough to pick up another round, which is then pushed forward with the slide, with the empty still on the extractor (again not possible). The empty them somehow pops off the extractor to magically line up perfectly with the chamber. The empty then ends up inside the chamber with the live round on the breech face lodged BEHIND it. I could show you in photos: this is a physically impossible scenario!

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

If it ejects an empty fine when there are no more cartridges in the magazine, I already described the problem and fix. The empty case coming out of the chamber catches on the top round in the magazine, and the ejector is slips off the empty. You must adjust the magazine lips such that the loaded round in the magazine stays low enough for the case being pulled out of the chamber clears it.

[fatelk]

I appreciate that Charlie, but if you look at the second photo in post #26, you'll see that the next round in the mag rides against the underside of the slide, a good 1/8" below the feed lips. If I adjusted them as you describe I'd be radically altering the magazine and the round would be far too low to feed.

I'm pretty sure most magazine fed firearms are like this. The next round rides below the bolt or slide until that bolt/slide opens fully, at which time the round pops up to contact the feed lips, ready to be pushed forward into the chamber. All my other pistols are the same.

[35remington]

Magazine lips do not allow the cartridge to "pop up" into feeding position until the round is uncovered and is cleared by the breechface/bottom of the slide.....and in so doing, magazine lips don't "cause" round to pop up, as it is the cocking rail no longer being present that allows the round to rise, not magazine lips. The cocking rail on the underside of the slide serves to keep the round in the magazine low until, as I said, it is uncovered by the full rearward motion of the slide.

I think the OP already said the magazines aren't the cause of the problem, and I believe him given what I know about how autoloading pistols feed. Monkeying around with feed lips is a nonstarter of an idea. Many have a timed release point swaged into them that is pretty much impossible to alter to change release timing. Anything forward of the timed release point cannot have any effect on cartridge rise, and trying to change a bend already in place in spring steel magazine lips won't work. Magazine lips are springs, and unless visibly damaged should not be altered.

Closing magazine lips, even if you could, would negatively alter the release timing of the magazine.

If they are visibly damaged it's much smarter to replace them. The few magazine types that can be modified are tapered lip GI 1911 magazines. Most others cannot. If there are any doubters I'd be delighted to explain why not.

The photos show every evidence of an extractor problem. I do not believe he is misdiagnosing it.

[fatelk]

Thank you 35remington. All I know for sure is that my amateur tinkering with the extractor seemed to cause a dramatic improvement, so there is that.

I'd also like to apologize for getting riled and responding harshly. I know you all are trying to help. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. Life's too short to get ticked off over little things like this.

[mjwcaster]

I replaced the extractor in my TCP a year or two ago.
Replacement was different from the original, shorter.
I still think it is too long, it hits the cartridge above the extractor Grove, but much closer than the original.
This causes the cartridge to be tilted away from the breech face.
I don't think the TCP suffers from a design issue as much as a lack of quality control.
Which is why some love them and others have nothing but issues
Mine has last round feeding issues with flat nose ammo.
Feeds round nose and HP OK.
Polishing and the extractor change made it feed much better.
I believe stronger mag springs would fix the last round feed issue, just haven't found any.

I fixed things by finally getting an lcp.


Sent from my Z958 using Tapatalk

[35remington]

Can a new extractor and spring simply be ordered from Taurus? I wonder if the spring isn't taking a bind somehow and presenting insufficient tension.

[fatelk]

I replaced the extractor in my TCP a year or two ago.
Replacement was different from the original, shorter.

You know, I kept looking at mine thinking it seemed like it would work better if it was shorter. I still haven't called them yet. I will call them for sure to see about an extractor.

I wavered between seeing if I could get a new extractor, and possibly sending it back. I've decided not to send it back because where I have it now it's pretty reliable and they'd probably say there was nothing wrong with it. Especially if it costs shipping to send it back, it would not be worth it by any means.

I still don't think it's reliable enough to carry, as far as I'm concerned. I may just keep this one as a plinker, maybe buy an LCP for carry if I need to (I have plenty of others but nothing quite this size). These little guns are so cheap! I see that PSA regularly has Rugers on sale for $199.

[montana_charlie]

I wavered between seeing if I could get a new extractor, and possibly sending it back.
What I gathered from the owner's manual is that you write down your serial number, then call Taurus and order Extractor Kit #55. Give 'em the serial number when they ask ...

You should get a new extractor and all of the related parts.

I don't know if they will send that out 'no charge', but after adding up the prices of all of those parts, it comes out to around ten bucks, as I recall.

[popper]

Almost hate to get into this. Mic the mag lips. Too far apart in front and a rnd will nose up when the slide is back.you CAN fix them. Doesn't take much. Also, do you hold the trigger back when firing? Has some thing to do with the disconnector. Causes stove pipes in 40, but 380 is shorter action.

[fatelk]

What I gathered from the owner's manual is that you write down your serial number, then call Taurus and order Extractor Kit #55. Give 'em the serial number when they ask ...

You should get a new extractor and all of the related parts.

I don't know if they will send that out 'no charge', but after adding up the prices of all of those parts, it comes out to around ten bucks, as I recall.

Awesome, thanks! I'll call them tomorrow. I just haven't taken the time to call yet.

I had the day off today and took the kids fishing. They've been bugging me to go fishing for a long time so we made the time today. They all caught a couple trout each and had a blast, including the 3 year old. She got really concerned when she realized what we were going to do with the fish we caught. She's a soft-hearted little thing and didn't like the thought of any creature being killed. It didn't stop her from eating dinner though!

Popper- I have two mags, one that I've used quite a bit and the other was new/unused. I've measured them and they both measure identical in every dimension. They both function the same too. Also, this malfunction was exactly the same every time: the new round would have fed perfectly except for the empty in the chamber blocking it. No stovepipes or traditional failures to feed, nothing that would indicate a mag problem at all really.

Thanks for the input though.

[popper]

Try holding the trigger back when you fire. A friend & I were shooting 40SW, he kept getting the jam like you (MP), tried my XD and got same results. Finally figured out he was trying to play race gun with it and didn't hold the trigger long enough to allow the disconnector (thing that prevents full auto) to reset. He held the trigger all the way back through the firing cycle and jams went away on both guns.

[fatelk]

Well, I ordered an extractor kit from Taurus, should be here next week. I'll let you all know how it looks, and more importantly how it works.

Popper, I'm pretty sure about the extractor, but I will try the trigger thing next time I have it at the range. It's a light little gun with plenty of buck for a .380 so I grip it tight and am pretty sure I'm not letting up on the trigger too soon, but I will make note of it next time I'm at the range.

The very minor work I've done to the existing extractor already has it basically fixed. At the range last weekend I shot 50 rounds with only one malfunction. If a new extractor is slightly shorter and tighter, I hope that makes it dead reliable.

Funny thing, many years ago (couple decades at least) I was shooting a Mini 14 for accuracy. I know, I know, oxymoron, but this one actually did pretty well. Anyhow, it doubled on me a couple times. I was worried something was wrong with it, but it turned out I was just pulling the trigger too lightly and slowly, and holding it too lightly as well I suppose. I figured out the the recoil was pushing the gun back away from my finger allowing the trigger to reset, then bouncing back against my finger to fire again, much like these bump-fire stocks you can get now. Startling if you're not expecting it!

[fatelk]

I got the new extractor a few days ago. It was very slightly shorter, and the spring was a bit longer. When installed it had a lot more tension on the cartridge.

I went to the range yesterday and shot a few magazines full, both factory and reloads: exactly zero extraction problems! It works like a champ now. Thanks everyone!

[Blackwater]

Thanks fatelk and all the rest here. I have one and will be ordering a new extractor for mine, as a "just in case" type thing. I like to have a few spare parts on hand if something breaks, so I can make repairs quickly. This was a very informative thread, and thanks to all.

[mjwcaster]

Parts availability for this model is the best of the Taurus lineup.
One of the reasons I bought mine.
I have a bag of extra small parts for it, had something jump out of it one day while cleaning, just shrugged, open my drawer, got the baggie out and put the gun back together.
Found the escapee later, but it was nice not having to tear the office apart looking for it.
Unlike yesterday morning digging being the fish tank for my LCP guide rod before work.

Sent from my Z958 using Tapatalk

[fatelk]

FYI, the extractor assembly, including the loaded chamber indicator and both springs, was $18 and change shipped.

Also, the extractor is very easy to take out. You just put a small pin (the pin on a Lee 30-06 case trimmer guide worked perfectly, plenty of leverage) in the hole in the underside of the slide, tilt it back to take the spring tension off the extractor, then tip and shake the slide a bit for it to drop into your hand. Taking the spring and spring pin out, or should I say getting it back in, is a different story; not easy at all.

[egg250]

I believe you stated you had fixed the issue. What was happening, based on the descriptions, as the round was fired and pressures forced the slide to the rear the extractor was not properly holding the empty case on the breech face. The empty case was falling off the breech face once it cleared the chamber and the ejector didn't have a chance to eject it from the action. The result is either a weak ejection or the empty case sits on top of the top round in the magazine and is jammed into the feed ramp when the slide returns forward.

If you continue to tweak the extractor, use this check. Install the extractor in the slide and fit a loaded cartridge on the breech face shake the slide gently. There should be sufficient tension and grip to hold the cartridge on the breech face as you shake the slide. If it rattles it might be ok and if it is held firmly in place that is a good indicator that your extractor fit is good.