Mobil 1

[docone31]

I have been reading up on lubricants used in bullet lubes.
For example, the firelapping system reccomends using Mobil 1 on the finer grits in the bore.
I started wondering, whether dipping lead bullets in Mobil 1 might provide an extra measure of slippery down the barrel.
Again, just a thought.
I wonder if Mobil 1 might be a lube for paper patches once seated.

[looseprojectile]

I thought you may be calling me, as I am still ambulatory:-D
Recently I have been thinking the same way as you. Most of the boolit lube technology in use at this time is old. When I make lube I find myself adding a little of something that I think may be a little extra slippery. Recent [last fifty years or so] thechnology has given us some very slick lubricants.
There is a large difference in the smokeless lubes, and lube for black powder needs certain things that keep the fouling moist.
I have a feeling that thick grease is not the best lubricant for a high speed application such as boolits winging down the bore of a gun. Lighter greases and oils should be better for lubing a rifle barrel.
The problem lies in how to keep light oils from migrating to the powder and primer. Needs to be both thick and a good high speed lubricant. Anderoll comes to mind. Anderoll is /was a thin gell that we used on aircraft guns that had to operate in low temperatures at high altitudes.
Felix and Bullshop will tell you to try some and when you have some success report back here. Of course I don't speak for those guys, though I will say, Try some and when you have some success, report back here.
Life is good

[Junior1942]

Report back here if you have bad success, too.

[leftiye]

I've read about how boolit lube isn't about lubrication as it is generally concieved. Harrison may not have been the first, but he said it back in the 1950s. And I've used triflow with no other help in the bores of muzzleloaders with plain lead boolits to get fine accuracy. Now bullshop is putting his Bullplate lube, and nothing else (beeswax for carrier) in lube and it works just fine he and others who have used it say (and I do believe them). My next lube experiment will be Speed Greenwith carnauba, and MDS (moly).

I guess my perspective here (for failure to find a better way to put it) is that the old lubes may well be enshrined, but they have never been satisfactory, and entering that arena is to open a huge can of worms. Simple answers may be to be avoided, but good answers don't exist yet in my opinion. It is plenty late to go ahead and find out what really works as we would want it to.

[jhrosier]

... My next lube experiment will be Speed Greenwith carnauba, and MDS (moly). ....

All I know is what I read... I have read enough bad stuff about Moly to never allow it in my bore. YMMV

Jack

[jonk]

I would be very leery of dipping my bullets in oil. Back when I first started shooting milsurp ammo and found out it was corrosive, I routinely oiled my bores as a final measure of protection after the water/soap/bore cleaner routine. It was a good idea then and is a good idea yet; the difference was I did NOT know to remove the oil. I thought, oh well, a little slippery oil (I used a lot of 10W30 then) in the bore is a GOOD thing.

Wrong.

I managed to ring a few barrels that way as too much oil in the bore couldn't get out of the way of the bullet and so ringed the bore instead.

Now cast bullets have lube grooves and there is a big difference in the bullet carrying the oil along vs. trying to displace it ahead of the crimp groove. Still, either way, I'm leery of any liquid in the bore now. Bullet lubes are universally pastes or dried liquids which have formed coatings and except for that part actually in contact with the barrel, don't melt per se. Ergo no liquid mess is being displaced in front of the bullet.

That goes out the window with Mobil 1 or any other liquid oil.

Now using Mobil 1 mixed with beeswax as a carrier is another matter- though methinks it might combine more readily with parrafin, being as both are petroleum based. Hmm..... that would be worth a try perhaps.

[docone31]

That is the idea. One of my what-ifs.
I would never allow any measure of liquid to be present when a bullet is traveling down the bore. Pressure does amazing things to materials, liquids become solids, solids become liquids.
My primary thought would be a very light film. The lube grooves would be with contemporary lube, perhaps a thin film on the ogive forward.
I have seen engines run dry on Mobil 1 for a longer than would be expected time. In shop class, we ran two dry. One on Mobil 1, one on regular dino. The dino lasted for about 20 minutes. The Mobil 1 about two hours. This is with only what was in the oil channels at start up.

[runfiverun]

i have been thinking of adding some synth oil to a carrier of some sort.
like a hard lube to soften it up.
as i think lube helps to lower friction but different lubes "work" at different temps.
like in a lubrisizer wwith a heater.

[leftiye]

R5R, My main lube right now is Lar's C-Red mixed with bullplate lube 6 to 1. I like it. It's way beyond worrying about leading, and I use fairly soft lead. Haven't tested it head to head with 50/50 for accuracy yet though. Don't let Larry know.

[Boerrancher]

I use to make a lube that used STP, Parafin, and Liquid Alox. I can't say that it worked any better than any other lube I have used, nor can I say it was any worse. I really don't see where slick has anything to do with performance of a lube. All the lube has to do to prevent leading is lay down a thin layer of material to keep the vaporized lead from soldering itself to the barrel.

Best Wishes,

[mike in co]

All I know is what I read... I have read enough bad stuff about Moly to never allow it in my bore. YMMV

Jack


jack ,
with that attitude, you are missing about half of what is available in the shooting world.
can you provide me several documented problems with moly ? heck even one. there are lots of ol'wives tales which are just that....bs. the bs from advertisers added to the wives tales created a big pile of bs. as with any change in reloading process, you basically have to start over and work your way to sucess. i have been shooting moly in 99 percent of my guns for years. moly does one, and only one thing: it allows the same accuracy longer(between cleanings). moly does not attack bbls, it does not cause a decrease in accuracy, it does not extend bbl life.

it does require that you change your cleaning procedure: get rid of the brushes and find a carbon remover.

seems strange that manufactures tell you not to shoot reloads/cast boolits in your guns , but you do that...by working up from scratch....try the same with moly....you will be surprised....they even moly coat lead boolits!

mike in co.

[dwtim]

Lead is slippery enough as it is. Lead bullets just need to be large enough.

I wouldn't want to add any modern lubricant designed to creep into the smaller spaces of modern tight-tolerance engines; I'd be too afraid that it would contaminate the charge.

However, I highly recommend modern engine oils (not just Mobile 1) for greasing up the moving parts of your reloading equipment. I don't think there is any engine oil marketed that doesn't have some level of synthetic ingredients. Grease gets pushed to the side, and light oils like RemOil drip off. However, when I put Castrol GTX on my press rams, it stays put for a long time.

[John Boy]

Using petroleum based lubricants burns and forms a varnish in the bore that decreases accuracy of a firearm.

Mobil 1 is a petroleum based product:
All motor oils are made up of base oils and additives. In general, fully synthetic motor oils contain non-conventional, high-performance fluids. Synthetic blends usually use some non-conventional, high-performance fluids in combination with conventional oil.

To meet the demanding requirements of today's specifications (and our customers' expectations), Mobil 1® uses high-performance fluids, including polyalphaolefins (PAOs), along with a proprietary system of additives. Each Mobil 1 viscosity grade uses a unique combination of synthetic fluids and selected additives in order to tailor the viscosity grade to its specific application.

Take the cylinder head off an engine and what do you see? Varnish - Any Engine!

[docone31]

Ah ha, that darned varnish.
I hadn't thought of that. I wonder if the lubes we use do the same thing.
Lead is slippery, oil in engines works more to cool than lubricate. It creats a non-compressible barrier.
I do so wonder on so many things. I plan on wrapping heavy bullets for both my .303, and 30 cals. Paper makes an excellent polisher.
T'was a question, and the answers so far have me thinking of many wonderful things to make the simple, complicated.
I got to thinking last night, of waxing the bores. That way, the first shot might have a layer of lube to then deposit the latter layer of lube. That way, each sucessive bullet would have a primary layer of lube.
But, then again, lead does slide. After the first swageing into the rifling, how much actual pressure does it take to keep the bullet sliding?
When a lead bullet hits steel at the end of the range, it vaporizes pretty much. The kinetic energy comes to a complete stop. Immediate, total. Starting a bullet recquires pressure. The path of the bullet is another issue.
Dang, I love this forum. People are not asleep here.

[waksupi]

Doc, I don't know about that stopping suddenly at the steel target. I have yet to have a boolit stopped from my .358 win, at either 100, or 200 hundred yards. Punches a nice hole right through. HAven't had a chance to try it furthur, as my buddy complained about his half inch thick targets getting holes in them.

[Ricochet]

But, then again, lead does slide. After the first swageing into the rifling, how much actual pressure does it take to keep the bullet sliding?Try slugging your bore. Once you get the slug formed into the rifling, it's not very hard to push it on through.

[Larry Gibson]

If one bothers to read Hatcher's Notebook you'll find some of the problems they had with oiling bullets. Might be "old" technology and not applicable to cast bullets but there's lessons learned there none the less. I tried Molly in my 7.62 and .223 match rifles. It was a pian because it took a lot more than 2 sighters to properly fol the bore. Clean the bore and you're right back where you started. I also never saw any of the accuracy benifits claimed.

Hey Leftiye, let me know if Carnuba/bullplate lube concoction is any better than 50/50. I am always trying other things besides adjusting for RPM. Might want to try it myself.

Larry Gibson

[docone31]

I have hand lapped bores. I know what you mean. The first push is the biggee, then it skates. We had to watch changing pressure on hand lapping. It would leave a mark.
Most of this has been for my gathering information. I figuire, the only stupid question is the one not asked and acted upon.
I mean, shoot enough shots and the barrel has to be either freshed, or replaced. At this point, even with crappy loads the rifle shoots better than I do.
Once again, this is a great forum. At least for me. I have read so many threads, I cannot remember them all.
I am probably going to wrap my .30s and the .303. The .243 I am probably going to go jacketed. The rifling is set up for fast 100gn.
Long ago, I tried to cast bullets. Phooey. I made crap, messes, and never tried one.
Yesterday, I fired up 50 185gn .312 bullets. I sized them to .311. I will cast some more and size them to .309.
I have had more fun lately than in a long time.
I also loaded up some of my castings, ready to try.
This is a great site.

[jhrosier]

.....
can you provide me several documented problems with moly ? heck even one. there are lots of ol'wives tales which are just that....bs. the bs from advertisers added to the wives tales created a big pile of bs. ......

I am not prepared to dig up what I originally read.
The gist of it was, that the moly breaks down from the heat of the propellant gasses and forms compounds that later combine with moisture to form sulphuric acid, which can quickly ruin a bore. I had no reason to doubt the motives or veracity of the source, but the implications were serious enough to concern me.

I do know enough about moly to believe that it is nearly impossible to remove from steel. That is a good thing of it has some benefit and no drawbacks, otherwise it is a critical fault.

Perhaps there are factors that cause the alleged corosion to happen sometimes and not others.
My viewpoint is that until or unless the matter is proven one way or the other, I wouldn't chance ruining my bore.
Is it possible that the relatively low humidity in your area has worked in your favor?

You are right about the BS, though. There are so many lubricants and cleaners that it is hard to know where advertising hype ends and science begins. Maybe there is no perfect bore cleaner or universally effective bore/boolit lube (yet.)

BTW, what have you found to be most effective for removing carbon?

Jack

[jack19512]

I managed to ring a few barrels that way as too much oil in the bore couldn't get out of the way of the bullet and so ringed the bore instead.









Are you serious? You can actually ring a barrel by putting oil inside your barrel! How much oil was you putting in your barrel and shooting? :confused:

[leftiye]

Docone, Regarding your idea about waxing your bore, investigate Carnauba. Felix says it will coat your bore, and not build up because it's brittle. Due to all of the comments I've seen on lube threads about bullets leaving the gun with lube still in the grooves, and it even being there after impacting who knows what, I'm about half convinced that big deep lube grooves do next to nothing. Due to other comments concerning the question as to whether a boolit lubes its own way down the bore or lubricates the boolit that follows it, I'm convinced that the latter is the case. Other comments say that the extreme heat of the burning powder gasses strips the bore of all lubricans, but we've all looked at too many bores covered lightly with lube to believe that. Lube stars would be impossible if that were the case. And I have muy pretty, clean shiny barrels with the C-Red/ bullplate lube. My point being that I think that that shiny clean layer of Carnauba points the way to the true path to at least mortal bliss. Less lube, cleaner bores, cleaner powders. And hopefully we can shoot forever without fouling shots as some here do. Barring problems like Harrison had with graphite, and moly building up and affecting accuracy, I'm thinking that it could just make a good thing (coating) better.

[jhrosier]

Try slugging your bore. Once you get the slug formed into the rifling, it's not very hard to push it on through.

Yes, but what happens when you strike the base of the boolit with an 8,000 pound "hammer?" (area of a .30 cal boolit base x 40,000 psi ) Does the obturation of the boolit overcome the lubricity and stick the surface of the boolit firmly to the inside of the bore?:confused:

Perhaps the science-tiffically inclined among us could walk us through the process.

Jack

[softpoint]

I've been wanting to try some Slick 50 grease as a bullet lube base. It' s synthetic and almost thick enough as it is. also, the high temp synthetic grease stays about the same thickness over a broad temperature range.

[jhrosier]

...... My point being that I think that that shiny clean layer of Carnauba points the way to the true path to at least mortal bliss.

"Wax on, wax off." Where did I hear that before?:)


...Less lube, cleaner bores, cleaner powders. And hopefully we can shoot forever without fouling shots as some here do. ....

Now ya got me thinkin'... JPW as a bore conditioner, sounds like it just might work!

I have a gun that shoots nice tight groups (with the occasional flyer) with a clean dry bore. It shouldn't take long to see a change for better (no flyers) or worse (big group.)

Thanks leftiye.

Jack

[Larry Gibson]

"BTW, what have you found to be most effective for removing carbon?"

I use GM Top Engine Cleaner. Pretty much identical to Butch's Bore cleaner only 1/3 the cost. Works good.

Larry Gibson

[mike in co]

If one bothers to read Hatcher's Notebook you'll find some of the problems they had with oiling bullets. Might be "old" technology and not applicable to cast bullets but there's lessons learned there none the less. I tried Molly in my 7.62 and .223 match rifles. It was a pian because it took a lot more than 2 sighters to properly fol the bore. Clean the bore and you're right back where you started. I also never saw any of the accuracy benifits claimed.

Hey Leftiye, let me know if Carnuba/bullplate lube concoction is any better than 50/50. I am always trying other things besides adjusting for RPM. Might want to try it myself.

Larry Gibson

larry,
you do not clean a moly bbl like a regular bbl. in a reg bbl you try to clean down to the original metal; in a moly bbl you do not want to disturb the moly coating on the bbl. to that end...NO BRUSHES!. WET AND DRY PATCHES ONLY. i start with a couple patches of gm top engine cleaner to remove carbon, then with #9 to check/remove copper.....

the only accuracy from moly is "longer between cleanings" nearly ideal for an 88 round match. you must work up a load, not just use an existing load with a moly bullet.
i still shoot any/any 600 yd matches...with moly.....
mike in co.......

[crabo]

Leftiye said, "And I have muy pretty, clean shiny barrels with the C-Red/ bullplate lube. My point being that I think that that shiny clean layer of Carnauba points the way to the true path to at least mortal bliss."

What is the lube formula you are using?

Crabo

[mike in co]

I am not prepared to dig up what I originally read.
The gist of it was, that the moly breaks down from the heat of the propellant gasses and forms compounds that later combine with moisture to form sulphuric acid, which can quickly ruin a bore. I had no reason to doubt the motives or veracity of the source, but the implications were serious enough to concern me.
MORE BS. THE HARD BLACK DEPOSIT FOUND IN MOLY BBL'S IS CARBON. IT PLATES OUT DUE TO THE BARRIER THAT THE MOLY HAS PUT UP. WITHOUT USING A CARBON REMOVER IT GET WORSE AND WORSE, ACCURACY GOES DOWN HILL AND MOLY GETS BLAMED. MOLY DOES NOT BREAK DOWN AND RECOMBINE TO FORM A SULFUR TO ATTACK YOUR BBL...JUST MORE WIVES TALES.

I do know enough about moly to believe that it is nearly impossible to remove from steel. That is a good thing of it has some benefit and no drawbacks, otherwise it is a critical fault.

Perhaps there are factors that cause the alleged corosion to happen sometimes and not others.
My viewpoint is that until or unless the matter is proven one way or the other, I wouldn't chance ruining my bore.
Is it possible that the relatively low humidity in your area has worked in your favor?
I STARTED USING MOLY IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA...ALONG THE COAST, I NOW LIVE IN CO.

You are right about the BS, though. There are so many lubricants and cleaners that it is hard to know where advertising hype ends and science begins. Maybe there is no perfect bore cleaner or universally effective bore/boolit lube (yet.)

BTW, what have you found to be most effective for removing carbon?
MOST OVER THE COUNTER TOP ENGINE CLEANERS HAVE AN ARESSIVE CARBON REMOVER: GM TEC IS ONE, SO IS SUBARU'S.

CONSIDER NOT BELIEVING WHAT YOU READ IN GUN RAGS.( ITS SORTA WHY THIS SITE EXISTS)
I KNOW OF THREE MAJOR ERRORS PUBLISHED BY RAGS.
ONE MAJOR GUN ACCURACY PARTS SELLER QUIT SELLING MOLY KITS WHEN THEY SECTIONED A BBL AND FOUND "LARGE HARD BUILD UPS OF MOLY".....IT WAS CARBON...THEY HAD NOT BEEN CLEANING PROPERLY AND THE BBL WENT SOUTH......ME THINKS THEY WERE SO EMBARASSED BY THIER ACTIONS THEY HAVE STILL IGNORED MOLY( WELL NOT THEY SELL MOLY BULLETS...LOL).
SIERRA SELLS MOLY BULLETS BUT ONE OF THIER TOP TECHNICIANS "DEBUNKED" MOLY......HE WAS RIGHT ON NO BETTER BBL LIFE, NO IMPROVED ACCURACY...BUT MISSED "MAINTAINS ACCURACY LONGER" BETWEEN CLEANINGS. SPRAYING MOLY ON SEATED BULLETS IS COSMETIC, IT NEED TO BE ON THE BEARING SURFACE.

RICK JAMISON IS A RELOADER , NOT AN AMMO CRAFTER. HE PUBLISHED THAT MOST MOLY ON THE BEARING SURFACE WAS SCRAPED OFF BY THE SIDES OF THE CASE. ALL HE DID WAS PUBLISH HIS INABILITY TO PROPERLY PREPARE A CASE FOR LOADING. HE FAILED TO DE-BURR THE INSIDE OF THE CASE NECK! HIS PULLED BULLETS NOT ONLY SCRAPED OFF THE MOLY BUT ACTUALLY SHOWED DAMAGED TO THE BULLET....WHAT JERK.

ON THE POSITIVE SIDE LAPUA SELLS MOLY COATED BULLETS. THEY PUBLISHED THE DATA THEY USED TO MAKE THIER CORPRATE DECISION. PUBLISHED AND DOCUMENTED MAINTAINED ACCURACY LONGER. AS A SIDE NOTE, THE WAX COATING APPLIED TO A MOLY BULLET PROVIDES APROX 25% OF THE AFFECT.
MIKE

Jack


SEE ABOVE

[leftiye]

Crabo, Lar's Carnauba Red mixed 6 to 1 with Bullplate lube by weight. It's pretty sticky is its biggest detraction. I originally mixed it that way to make it go through my lubrisizer at 60 degrees without heating it.

[Larry Gibson]

larry,
you do not clean a moly bbl like a regular bbl. in a reg bbl you try to clean down to the original metal; in a moly bbl you do not want to disturb the moly coating on the bbl. to that end...NO BRUSHES!. WET AND DRY PATCHES ONLY. i start with a couple patches of gm top engine cleaner to remove carbon, then with #9 to check/remove copper.....

the only accuracy from moly is "longer between cleanings" nearly ideal for an 88 round match. you must work up a load, not just use an existing load with a moly bullet.
i still shoot any/any 600 yd matches...with moly.....
mike in co.......

I know, I read all the stuff at the time and followed that procedure. Just didn't work. Also I saw no advantage to it. All 4 of my match rifles (2 service rifles and 2 bolt guns) can go a full 100 shot match without cleaning using regular bullets. It's the quality of the barrel I guess. Last time I shot an 80 shot 600 yard belly match I shot a 200 - 11X on the last string, that without cleaning between strings. I know many use Molly with success. I just didn't find any improvement is all.

Larry Gibson

[jonk]

Are you serious? You can actually ring a barrel by putting oil inside your barrel! How much oil was you putting in your barrel and shooting? :confused:
Yes indeed, I did and you can. I can't point to any one culprit in terms of how much- but usually I would take an oil can with a flexible head and pump a good squirt of 10W30 into the chamber, then push that through with an oiled patch, working it back and forth as I went.

10W30 is pretty thick stuff.

I have also used WD40 and RemOil in a similar fashion- though I think they were light enough and left little enough residue that they weren't to blame.

The barrels I rung were on an M1 Garand and Krag 1898, just to add insult to injury. I still shoot both as there is no bulge and I've not had an issue, but I guess I COULD.

[EDG]

Has anyone toyed with the use of a true synthetic lubricant such as Krytox for a lubricant?
Krytox is very inert and may be be better suited for a black powder lube due to it's inertness.
I don't think anyone is going to run out and buy a pound of it since it is about $300 for a 14 oz grease gun cartridge. There are also silicone greases loaded with powdered PTFE (Teflon) that are much less expensive than Krytox. I have been wondering what Alox would do with some powdered Teflon mixed in.

From wiki

Krytox is a trademark of a family of high performance synthetic lubricants (oils and greases) used in many things from spaceships to computer chip manufacturing. It is a chemical polymer belonging to the ether family that was patented by the chemical manufacturing giant DuPont. Krytox oils are a fluorocarbon polymers of polyhexafluoropropylene oxide, with a chemical formula

F − (CF(CF3) − CF2 − O)n − CF2CF3,

where the degree of polymerization, n, generally lies within the range n=10-60.[1] This mixture of compounds are collectively known by many names, including perfluoropolyether (PFPE), perfluoroalkylether (PFAE), or perfluoropolyalkylether(PFPAE). A unique identifier is their CAS registry number, 60164-51-4.

In addition to PFPE, krytox grease also contains telomers of PTFE, and in many ways krytox is designed to be a liquid or grease form of PTFE. Krytox is thermally stable, nonflammable (even in liquid oxygen), nontoxic, and insoluble in water, acids, bases, and most organic solvents. It has very low vapor pressure and can be used between about -60 and +316 to +399 °C. It is highly resistant to ionizing radiation, making it useful for aerospace and nuclear industry. It can withstand extreme pressure and high mechanical stress.

[Lloyd Smale]

it may be petroleum based but i usually burn my drain oil and ive tried burning the stuff and its about impossible to get to start. Only way to do it is to get my wood stove very hot and slowly add it to the fire. I dont think your ever going to get up to those temps in a gun
Using petroleum based lubricants burns and forms a varnish in the bore that decreases accuracy of a firearm.

Mobil 1 is a petroleum based product:
All motor oils are made up of base oils and additives. In general, fully synthetic motor oils contain non-conventional, high-performance fluids. Synthetic blends usually use some non-conventional, high-performance fluids in combination with conventional oil.

To meet the demanding requirements of today's specifications (and our customers' expectations), Mobil 1® uses high-performance fluids, including polyalphaolefins (PAOs), along with a proprietary system of additives. Each Mobil 1 viscosity grade uses a unique combination of synthetic fluids and selected additives in order to tailor the viscosity grade to its specific application.

Take the cylinder head off an engine and what do you see? Varnish - Any Engine!