"Dirty" Powder

[dale2242]

I was just reading the thread on old vs new Unique.
Rather than hijack the thread, I decided to start this one.

What does "dirty" powder mean to you?
More carbon in the barrel?
Unburned powder in the barrel?
More smoke?
Leading?
I have read about "dirty" powder for over 50 years.
I use NRA 50/50 lube so all my cast handgun loads are "dirty".
Let`s hear what your idea of dirty powder is.....dale

[Shiloh]

With handguns it means more soot around the slide on autos. Cylinder and frames get sooty on wheel-guns.
I love my Unique powder though.

SHiloh

[Walter Laich]

means Bullseye for me. sorta like shooting Black Powder-Lite

[44man]

Just more carbon inside and outside. What is in the bore should be taken care of with lube and shoot out with each shot.
I use a LOT of 296 and my .44's are the worst but larger is not as dirty. I use 4759 in my 45-70 and brass does not even need wiped off and 4759 was an OLD powder.
I never found Unique that bad and it doesn't mean anything anyway.
Most smoke is from lube and I still think Alox is the worst and burns in the bore to leave ash.

[gnostic]

I'm considering moving away from 3.5 grains of BE and 158 gr cast 38Spc. that I've shot for 50 years. As, a 1/3 of a coffee can, of my handloads, turns my hands black. I lube with NRA 50/50 and the smoke, even outdoors is awful. I've made a new batch of bullets lubed with Ben's LL. in the hopes of less smoke, cleaner hands, clothes and smoke in my face. I'm not leading or seeing unburned powder, just lots of smoke in my face, dirty hands and the accompanying health risk.

[thegatman]

Try different loads and tighter crimps. A little soap works too.

[gnostic]

More crimp is a good idea, how's the soap work on your lungs?

[runfiverun]

getting it in there ain't so hard rinsing it out is what takes all the time.

a dirty powder to me is one that's sooty you see the black poof and the gunk on the gun and your hands.
just about every powder will have a point where it burns inefficiently once you get the pressure above that point they will clean up considerably.

some powders don't ever really hit that point and are considered the 'dirty' powders.

[Char-Gar]

The whole concept of "dirty powder" is one of my pet peeves. It would seem that the new generations of shooters don't want to clean their pistols or wash their hands.

I am now 58 years into handloading and shooting handguns with a couple of million rounds to my credit. I don't run and gag when some powder smoke blows toward me or run for the wipes when a spec of powder residue show up on my hands.

I clean my guns after every shooting session and pay no mind to gunsmoke or powder residue. It is part of the game. I have just laid in two 8 lbs kegs of Bulleye, so that tells you just how concerned I am about this whole silly issue.

[Char-Gar]

I'm considering moving away from 3.5 grains of BE and 158 gr cast 38Spc. that I've shot for 50 years. As, a 1/3 of a coffee can, of my handloads, turns my hands black. I lube with NRA 50/50 and the smoke, even outdoors is awful. I've made a new batch of bullets lubed with Ben's LL. in the hopes of less smoke, cleaner hands, clothes and smoke in my face. I'm not leading or seeing unburned powder, just lots of smoke in my face, dirty hands and the accompanying health risk.

Health risk? What a bunch of horse hocky. Don't go outside and breath the air either lots of particulate in it also. Stay out of the sun also. Don't eat meat and do a deep colonic cleansing every six months also. Jeeze ain't nobody ever died from shooting handguns, unless they were the target.

Don't let this throw you into a panic, but you are going to die sooner or later. If you have been shooting for 50 years, it will be sooner rather than later. Clean up any messes you have made with God and people on this earth and get ready. While you are waiting for your ticket to get punched, enjoy shooting as you always have. Shoot, then wash your hands and clean your guns. When you die, as you surely will, it won't be gunsmoke and powder residue that did you in.

[bangerjim]

I gave all of my 3+ pounds of Unique away to a "friend" (poor guy - he is now stuck with it) because it was the dirtiest, grimiest smelliest powder I have ever used. I know everybody on here loves it, dreams about finding it, and drools when finding it, but I would not even haul it home from the store if it was free.

I am taking:

Lots of smoke (I shoot indoors 90%) And I PC everything, so it IS powder smoke, not grease.
Black gunk in barrel
Black gunk in fired brass
Black gunk on the outside of my guns
Black gunk on my hands
Stink

I have found much better cleaner powders that are also universal......one is ETR7.

Now that I have weeded out the dirty Unique, I now can clean my guns (1-2 patches) every 3-4 trips, and get hardly anything out of them due to using very clean-burning powder and PC. Unique left lots of black gunk in there, even with PC. My hands are virtually clean after a range sesson......no powder gunk or bare lead.

My biased opinion.......works great for me.........use what you want and can find.


Good shootin' !!!

bangerjim

[lotech]

As it is part of the process, I fail to see the point in complaints about "dirty" powder. I've used many different powders in rifles and handguns and must conclude that they're all dirty, some maybe a little more than others. Regardless, cleanup still requires the same amount of time, solvent, and effort.

[codgerville@zianet.com]

Health risk? What a bunch of horse hocky. Don't go outside and breath the air either lots of particulate in it also. Stay out of the sun also. Don't eat meat and do a deep colonic cleansing every six months also. Jeeze ain't nobody ever died from shooting handguns, unless they were the target.

Don't let this throw you into a panic, but you are going to die sooner or later. If you have been shooting for 50 years, it will be sooner rather than later. Clean up any messes you have made with God and people on this earth and get ready. While you are waiting for your ticket to get punched, enjoy shooting as you always have. Shoot, then wash your hands and clean your guns. When you die, as you surely will, it won't be gunsmoke and powder residue that did you in. Well said.

[codgerville@zianet.com]

Started reloading in 1961, can't begin to say how much Bullseye and Unique I've burned up in various pistols and revolvers. Light loads seem a little smoky, full charges not so much. I shoot, clean the weapons, wash my hands, sit on the back porch with a pipe and some good tobacco, and a cold Heineken. Works every time.

[C. Latch]

I hear bows and arrows are clean.

[EMC45]

I normally shoot revolvers (mostly with Hercules/Alliant powder) until my hands look like they are covered in graphite. Not sure if it is the powder, the lube (beeswax/Moly grease homemade) or a combination of both. I wash my hands and clean my guns when I get done. Easy as that. Dirty Unique? Give me some!!

[Blackwater]

I'm with Char-Gar on this issue. And if a powder's burning "dirty," I've always regarded that as a cue that I'm trying to use it in an application and at a pressure where it doesn't like to burn well at, and move on to a different and more appropriate powder. I think I have well over 30 partial 1 lb. cans of powder, most of which are near empty. Many are powders I've used and found wanting in performance for me, either in accuracy or some other factor, and I'd try them on occasion for other calibers or uses. In reloading, if we don't experiment, we don't generally learn much. Yeah, it costs a bit to do that, but done over time, it's really no big deal, and keeps shooting more interesting and edifying, so I surely can't claim I didn't get anything out of it in the process.

I'll also never understand wanting to load several guns with a single powder. Factories don't do that, and it's MHO that we shouldn't want to, much less do that either. Many powders can be "stretched" beyond their best applications, but when I shoot, I want the BEST and most ACCURATE ammo I can find, and I'll do what it takes to get that. Otherwise, I'm just making noise and abusing myself, and probably not doing my guns many favors either. Many people are so-so shots because they've never really attempted to get better. I could never justify that sort of thinking, myself, but if it pleases folks, I guess that's up to them. It's just never been my way. So I've had very little problems with loads. I just try to use powders that do the job well, give me the performance and accuracy I demand, and .... things have turned out pretty well doing that. 2400 seems to burn "dirtier" than 296, but has given me better accuracy in my .44 Ruger, so .... that's what I use. As Char-Gar says, I've never resented getting to pet my guns with an oily rag after I shoot, or run a brush or patch through the bores. If my loads are good and I did well, I just sit there and try to figure out how to do better next time. Reviewing the day's performance is a good way to get better, and cleaning time is tailor made for that.

[Hick]

I mostly use 700X in my S&W 38 special, and like the way it shoots. There's always left over soot in the frame and a little on the outside of the cylinder, but nothing a little light cleaning can't take care of. So--, I'm not sure what some would consider "dirty", but this doesn't seem bad to me.

[blikseme300]

I hear bows and arrows are clean.

Airguns are clean also. The sissified people that are afraid of any dirty things need to get a life! It seems that clean and smoke free are more important than accurate & consistent shooting.

[Mica_Hiebert]

To me it means unburnt powder especially in my d/a revolvers and it gets under the case ejector star and jams up 1 gun in particular my sp101 with real tight head spacing.

[gnostic]

So I shot a bunch of bullets today, that were tumble lubed and there was a huge difference in the smoke and crud on my hands. If I had to guess I'd say there was 75% less smoke with Ben's LL then the NRA 50/50 lube I'm using in my RCBS sizer. Obviously, it wasn't 'dirty powder,' it's the grease I'm lubing with and I'll fix that...

[mdi]

I believe that most of the talk about "dirty powder" is ignorance, and the new "buzz word". I've been reloading for 30 years, off and on, and have never had a gun stop working, semi-auto or revolver, from "dirty powder". I've only been reloading a rifle semi-auto for 8 years and again, no stoppages from "dirty powder".

Powder burns and it, like everything else that burns, leaves some sort of residue. I have made up some loads that were like shooting a sand blaster, and that was my fault, but that was with a light load of a slower burning powder, way under loaded. The powder, used correctly, isn't considered a "dirty powder" it was just used incorrectly.

I'm in the "clean your guns" group and guns don't go more than one session without cleaning. I keep a small hand towel(s) in my range bag/kit and if my hands get sooty, I can wipe them off. The indoor ranges I frequented had rest rooms with soap and water. When I go shootin' in the hills, I take water with me and can wash up before I drive home.

I wonder if cooks/chefs worry about a "dirty cooking oil" when frying chicken? Or do hikers only want "improved" trails so they don't have to hike on "dirty" trails? Some things just are. Every gun I have fired, even 22 rimfire, will leave some soot, or burnt powder, and that's just the nature of the beast. Live with it or change hobbies...

[MarkP]

Shotgun perspective -- sooty shell mouths, sooty piston assembly (gas operated guns), gummy bolt (autos). Unburned powder in bbl. no big deal for me.


Revolver - residue on end of cylinder and frame.

[unique]

The only powder I consider to burn dirty is black powder but that is compensated for by the wonderful aroma it gives off.

[Mk42gunner]

Dirty powder to me is BP or its subs. I think most of the "dirty smokeless" has more to do with bullet lube than with powder.

Same gun, same load, one lubed cast bullet, one j-word; which gets your hands dirtier? I'll give you a hint, it is not the jacketed round. That tells me the powder is not usually to blame.

Shoot, clean, wash hands. If you are going to eat before cleaning your guns, wash them before eating.

Robert

[bangerjim]

Dirty powder to me is BP or its subs. I think most of the "dirty smokeless" has more to do with bullet lube than with powder.

Same gun, same load, one lubed cast bullet, one j-word; which gets your hands dirtier? I'll give you a hint, it is not the jacketed round. That tells me the powder is not usually to blame.

Shoot, clean, wash hands. If you are going to eat before cleaning your guns, wash them before eating.

Robert

But.................I shoot exclusively powder coated lead boolits and the "black gunk" is totally from the powder. Absolutely ZERO exposed Pb. And I found Unique and 231 were the dirtiest burning powders I ever did shoot.

So in my experience, all the gunk is from the powder and Unique is a "dirty" powder in my book. You grease lubers will have the added "black" from handling raw lead also.

Washing your hands is definitely in line!!!

[warf73]

Ill regardless of what some say there are powders cleaner than others. Not saying everyone is using the powder with the right boolit, powder charge, crimped correctly which all those do make a difference in how powder preforms. But it was stated above some powders just never clean up no matter how heavy the boolit gets, how high of a charge you throw or how heavy you crimp.

Sooty brass is caused by lack of pressure to make the case swell to seal the chamber, some powders just produce sooty cases.

I load a lot of CFE pistol now and started at the min and worked up my load, like most of us do with a new powder or new powder/boolit combo.
I set the crimp and roll crimp as heavy as possible without sizing down my boolits. I do this prior to loading the first live round, it's just how I do pistol right or wrong but it works for me.
With the min charge in both 357mag and 380acp it produced very sooty brass. I slowly upped the charge and the sooty brass went away.

Like others I've got a boolit weight, design in mind and try to work the powder around what I want to shoot. In doing so some powders are just dirty compared to others.
I'm not just talking sooty brass. I'm talking after a 150~200 round range session you can't tell my stainless gun is stainless it's more of a matt blue finish. My hands look like I've been playing in coal, go to blow my nose and it looks like I've been out in the field all day rotary hoeing on an ol Farm All tractor.

So yes some powders are cleaner than other call me a sissy, a girly boy it makes no difference. Because I've got a load that shoots good and doesn't leaving me and the gun dirtier than a coal miner after a 12 hour shift in the mine.

Warf

[dubber123]

99.9% of my shooting is with old "dirty" powders. The new stuff probably does burn cleaner, but I don't care much. If anyone can show me consistently better groups using the new stuff, I would consider changing. Until then, I'll be content washing my hands afterwards :)

[FISH4BUGS]

I use WW231 in all my cast lead bullet pistol caliber loads. Yes it is "dirty". When I shoot them out of submachinegun, they don't seem as "dirty".
Who cares?
Cleaning your guns is part of the deal.

[MT Gianni]

When I hear someone talk about dirty powder I am reminded of a teenage girl who says the convenience store bathroom is too icky. Consider your options.

[44man]

You fellers live wrong!
I wanted sight settings for my Ruger Old Army and could not hold still so I slapped the blast shield on and shot creedmore. Me, the shield, gun and my pants looked like I was dipped in tar.

[bedbugbilly]

For those that find Bulls Eye, Unique and Red Dot "dirty" . . . or any other powder that they may find "dirty" . . . please PM me and I will send you my address so that you can send it to me and I will "dispose" of it for you as a pubic service. LOL

And as a public service to those that have issues with "dirty" powders . . . I believe Wally World is running a special on "hand wipes" and "white gloves" this week . . . . . :-)

As my Dad used to tell me when I was a kid . . . "If you're worried about getting dirty, you can avoid it by holding the right end of the shovel or pitch fork handle . . . "

[Petrol & Powder]

I'm with Char-Gar, FISH4BUGS, Mk42gunner and others on this issue with a caveat. I clean my guns after I shoot them and I clean my hands after I clean my guns. Done.
I don't care about soot on guns, so that's not an issue but some powders do produce more unburned powder than others in some applications. For example, WSF works great in 9mm but I cannot get it to burn completely in a 38 Special case unless I'm at the upper end of the charge weights. That doesn't mean it's a bad powder, it just doesn't seem to be efficient in some applications so my solution is to use something else.
Maybe we're using the term "dirty" when we should be saying "inefficient"?

[44man]

That is funny! :bigsmyl2:
A story, I started at UAL washing airplanes, DC-6's and DC-7's. You don't know about exhaust tracks from the big recips but they had a special paint on them. The soap we used was NASTY and you never wanted to get a drop in your eye.
We finished and the super would come out of the office with white gloves on to see how clean we got them. I could sell that stuff for bore cleaner! It never harmed aluminum but ate carbon like crazy. We used brushes and mops with about 12' handles so I would need to include one with every bottle. Plastic gloves and wood soled shoes so you don't slip as you scrub your gun!
Hoppe's still works but M-Pro 7 will remove what Hoppe's can't touch. Scrub with M-Pro 7 and a suede brush, then rinse the cylinder in hot water--DONE. It will remove the rings from the cylinder front.
Guys are correct, if it does not harm accuracy, forget it. You can't change your oil without getting dirty and the best hand cleaner EVER is still Boraxo instead of those cleaners that dry your skin.
I have Ed's Red and don't like it. Best cleaner for all is Butch's Bore Shine.
I have drawers full of cleaners touted to work, forget that! I have special SS grease, forget that too, STP works best.
I know you like a clean gun but experience shows some products make it easy while others stand back and spit baccy juice.

[Don Fischer]

I used to use a lot of Red Dot in cast handgun loads, always shot dirty but I still like the stuff. I don't have a problem cleaning my gun's. As for my hands, I wipe them off on my pants! lol

[mdi]

I used to use a lot of Red Dot in cast handgun loads, always shot dirty but I still like the stuff. I don't have a problem cleaning my gun's. As for my hands, I wipe them off on my pants! lolReal men don't need no stinkin' "clean powders"!:mrgreen: :mrgreen: