Winchester Model 1892 circa 1909

[ATCDoktor]

Several years ago I started looking for a "shooter" grade Model 92 in 25/20 wcf and couldn't seem to find one at a price point that I could I could stomach.

So about 18 months ago I found myself loafing around in my LGS when an older gentleman walked up to the counter and informed one of the employees that he had a bunch of guns in his car he wanted to "get rid of".

Being a regular in the store I offered to help the counterman bring them in for evaluation.

Most of what he had was what we all would consider junk but amongst the trash there was an abused M92 in the pile and lo and behold it was marked "25/20 WCF".

Now, when I say abused, I mean to all outward appearances this rifle looked like it had been given to several generations of kids to play cowboy's and Indians.

There was dust and dirt caked on it as thick as the skin on your big toe, the stock was chewed up, gouged and desiccated with longitudinal splits in the wood.

The rear tang screw had been replaced at some time with something that closely approximated the original, the rear sight had been replaced with something that appears to be handmade and last but not least the magazine tube was bent away from the barrel approximately 25 degrees.

When we got the guns upstairs I talked to the store owner and told him I'd like to have first refusal on the Model 92 (even in it's decrepit state) and he said he'd get it checked out and let me know,

It was my intent to pick the gun up cheap, have it rebuilt into a shooter so as to sate my appetite for a 25/20 and I eagerly awaited a call from the store owner as to what the disposition of the rifle would finally be.

After a couple of weeks of not receiving a call I got ahold of the store owner and asked about the M92 and he informed me at that in its present condition there was no way he could sell it and it was his intent part it out.

I told him I understood and appreciated the consideration and sort of half heartedly got along with quest for another "shooter" in 25/20.

Fast forward to last week and I'm walking through the shop and the owner comes up to me and asks if I remember the rough old M92 in 25/20 he had a while back.

I told him 'yes" and he stated that he finally got it cleaned up, the magazine tube straightened and asked if I was still interested in it and I shared that I was.

He brought it down and I checked it over again and while I looked it over he said, "look at these and tell me what you think" and he handed me a couple of 25/20 cases that they had fired in it and the were all swollen and nasty looking.

He then handed me a chamber cast they made and said, "it's been re chambered to something but we don't know what it is".

When I looked at the brass and the chamber cast I knew that at some time in the distant past it had been re chambered and rebored to 32 20.

I shared my thoughts reference it being a 32 20 with the store owner and he said they thought that might have been the case but the chamber cast and brass "just didn't look right".

He asked if I still was interested (even though I had wanted a 25/20) and I said I was depending on price and he said to give him a day or so to come up with a number.

Well, after all this time and a little back and forth I picked it up on Friday.

And this is what $200.00 model 92 looks like in my area of Arizona (Serial Number 4896XX):

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/ATCDoctor/DSC00359_zpsbsrlvqke.jpg (http://s30.photobucket.com/user/ATCDoctor/media/DSC00359_zpsbsrlvqke.jpg.html)

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/ATCDoctor/DSC00363_zpsufuw9lsz.jpg (http://s30.photobucket.com/user/ATCDoctor/media/DSC00363_zpsufuw9lsz.jpg.html)

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/ATCDoctor/DSC00362_zpsvzfueebd.jpg (http://s30.photobucket.com/user/ATCDoctor/media/DSC00362_zpsvzfueebd.jpg.html)

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/ATCDoctor/DSC00367_zpsubnovzqk.jpg (http://s30.photobucket.com/user/ATCDoctor/media/DSC00367_zpsubnovzqk.jpg.html)

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/ATCDoctor/DSC00360_zpskpb5lkv2.jpg (http://s30.photobucket.com/user/ATCDoctor/media/DSC00360_zpskpb5lkv2.jpg.html)

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/ATCDoctor/DSC00364_zpsnchb0ung.jpg (http://s30.photobucket.com/user/ATCDoctor/media/DSC00364_zpsnchb0ung.jpg.html)

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/ATCDoctor/DSC00372_zpstinxsimx.jpg (http://s30.photobucket.com/user/ATCDoctor/media/DSC00372_zpstinxsimx.jpg.html)

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/ATCDoctor/DSC00369_zpsci1qutna.jpg (http://s30.photobucket.com/user/ATCDoctor/media/DSC00369_zpsci1qutna.jpg.html)

The bore cleaned up ok and has no pits with a hint of frost throughout it's length.

I was able to run a few Remington factory loaded 32 20's through it Friday afternoon at 25 yards and it did ok with the crude rear sight and Remingtons dead soft 100 grain swaged bullet.

The sight was well centered at that range but the POA was about 4 inches low at that distance.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/ATCDoctor/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsmr92jieu.jpeg (http://s30.photobucket.com/user/ATCDoctor/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsmr92jieu.jpeg.html)

It's not exactly what I wanted reference caliber but it'll do.

I got dies, brass and some commercial cast bullets (sized .313 for it's .312 sized bore) to see if I can make it shoot the way I want.

If I can't, it'll take a ride to Taylor Machine for a reline.

I figure at 200 bucks for the rifle there's a little room for to move before I'm in to it so deep and can't get most of my mony out of it.

[pietro]

.

I like it !

A little love, and it'll make a great knock-around gun.


.

[ATCDoktor]

A little love, and it'll make a great knock-around gun

Thats what I'm thinking.

If I can get it to group the way I'd like at 75 - 100 yards it'll definitely bum around the desert with me.

I am cautiously optimistic as to its shootability reference it's performance with the Remington factory ammo.

Handloading will hopefully make it shine.

[modified5]

Great find! I like it!! I definitely would have bought it for $200.
That front sight looks really tall. Not sure what the profile looks like but if you could knock it down that would bring the groups up. That and a taller rear sight of course.
It will be interesting to see what hand loads do with the group. Keep us posted.

[shoot-n-lead]

You could probably get half your money back from parts...so, you aren't out much.

Personally, it is a little too rough for me.

[TXGunNut]

I think the 32-20 makes a better CB cartridge anyway. I think you did good!

[modified5]

Looked again after a decent nights sleep and noticed the picture of the muzzle with a great shot of the front sight. :-)
shouldn't post after working so hard around the ranch on the weekends.
Anyway, there is plenty of metal there to file away to chase those boolits to there proper place on the target. Find out what size CB's she wants and I bet that old girl will shoot just fine. :-)

[northmn]

I have a Marlin 94 CL in 32-20 and love the thing. As to Remington factory loads. It groups much better than mine does. Mine patterns them. My CL however shoots handlaods beautifully. I am not one to really hotrod 32-20's. I ahve used mine on small game and have other rifles for deer. As to that rifle. I have bought old double hammer shotguns and refurbished them. A couple of wall hangers that I was able to built up for shooting. If that rifle shoots and has a good bore, one can fix it up to be a little less rough. While I am not big on collecting, be careful on fixing it up, but a shootable 32-20 fixed up is worth more than $200.
At this time the the 25-20 is getting tough to find components for. I can load my 32-20 with 32 pistol bullets, and it shoots very well out of cast bullets from a Lee 120 30 cal mold that drops at 311-312 and get lubed with Lee Liquid Lube. I ahve shot a variety of powders in mine as I have a bunch of stuff that I want to use up.

DEP

[runfiverun]

that has rode around in a saddle sleeve a long time, I'd say a sheep herder had it.
a re-crown rounding the barrel back the way it come would help.
a little judicious filing to square things up front and a new rear sight wouldn't hurt either.
the new rear sight should bring the poi up on it's own.

btw except for the cracks in the stock that actually looks about 5 times better than either of mine in 25-20 do.

[smokeywolf]

In addition to being rechambered for 32-20, you have a rifle barrel on a carbine frame. Carbines utilize a barrel band just rearward of the front sight to secure the mag tube. The rifle model used the magazine hanger.

[ATCDoktor]

[QUOTE]In addition to being rechambered for 32-20, you have a rifle barrel on a carbine frame. Carbines utilize a barrel band just rearward of the front sight to secure the mag tube. The rifle model used the magazine hanger.

I knew something didn't look right reference it having a saddle ring frame and that's it; rifle barrel and hanger.

I would have rubbed what's left of my hair off trying to figure out what it was.

That makes it that much more of an odd duck.

No telling (short of lettering it) what it's original caliber was (32 20 or 25/20).

I would imagine there could have been significant damage to the original barrel and loading tube to have to swap the barrel and loading tube out.

That or whoever rebarreled it had a rebored 25/20 rifle barrel and loading tube laying around and it was a simple swap.

Who ho knows it could have been caliber swapped several times over the last 107 years.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I think the rifle is in very good condition except for the butt stock. Good grief guys it still has much of the original bluing and no rust pits. Having owned many '92s I think you did well. At one time I had six of the little rifles. I can't speak of the barrel's bore but the metal I see looks very good. You did well. here are pictures of a 32-20 that is worth much more than $200 and it is not as clean as yours.

[runfiverun]

it could have even been a 357 at some point.
there were so many of them made up on the original 25/32-20 rifles the original ones are getting hard to find.
which is odd because I have never seen a converted 357.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I remember several people who converted '92s to 357 back in the 1960s. That conversion has to be done on a '92 in either 25-20 or 32-20 since the hole in the front of the action and placed higher than on the 44-40 or 38-40. I owned one '92 in 25-20 that would shoot a group a little over an inch at 100 yards. It was a rifle that was converted to carbine. Some former owner sent it to Winchester and had them install new carbine barrel on it. My brother has it now.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, this can hardly fail to be a good $200 worth, and quite possibly much better. That barrel hanger is definitely wrong for the 92 as then produced, but Winchester did various features on special order. It isn't in the special order list in the 1899 catalogue, and it is hard to imagine a private person specifying that as an extra, and no others. But a dealer might have. This rifle doesn't really justify the cost of a factory letter, which might or mightn't tell you. But if any kind person has a subscription for inquiries the Buffalo Bill Center, he might be able to find out.

The other possibility is that someone has reduced a rifle barrel by 4in. from the rear. In this case it will be slightly smaller in diameter than it used to be, but that shouldn't matter in the .32-20. Recrowning the barrel would be worth doing, and for the amateur who doesn't want to lay out a lot of money on tooling, the best method is probably a ball-shaped tungsten carbide burr. But this shouldn't be rotated at high speed, when it can easily cut more on one side than the other. It should be held in a vice and the barrel rotated against it.

I don't know if the dealer meant the chamber didn't look right for .25-20 or didn't look right for .32-20? There is always the possibility that it has been badly chambered, and setting the barrel back a thread or two and rechambering with a modern reamer might effect an improvement.

[chajohnson]

I have three 25-20s; two '92s and a Marlin 27-S pump. I love the caliber, but darn If I can find brass. Remington, which is my favorite, has discontinued making it, and Winchester seems to be unavailable, as well. One can still find loaded ammunition, but it's almost $2.00 a round now. Starline doesn't make it and recommends converting 32-20 brass, something I have little interest in. I was bidding on some once fired on Gunbroker but quit when it got to $1.50 a case. Other than Hornady 60 gr., no one has any jacketed bullets for it. (one of the '92s WILL NOT shoot lead.) I've got 2 Lyman GC molds and an old Redding PB. At present, I'd say someone did you a favor on the caliber conversion. Congrats on your find.

[smokeywolf]

chajohnson, look up "Grumpa" in the member list and send him a PM. I think he might be able to provide some 25-20 cases at a pretty reasonable price point.

[pietro]

In addition to being rechambered for 32-20, you have a rifle barrel on a carbine frame. Carbines utilize a barrel band just rearward of the front sight to secure the mag tube. The rifle model used the magazine hanger.


AFAIK, the OP's Winchester is a Carbine (model) with a Carbine barrel, defined by a pinned-in front sight blade mounted in a square post brazed to the barrel; and not a "Rifle" (model) front sight (normally directly mounted in a barrel dovetail).

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/ATCDoctor/DSC00372_zpstinxsimx.jpg






For comparison, this is a Model 1892/92 Rifle (model) front sight (below):

http://merzantiques.com/images/guns/29704/dsc08517_(1024x576).jpg


.

[smokeywolf]

Dog gone-it pietro, I do hate it when I'm wrong. But your post made me do a bit of digging and I discovered that there indeed were '92 carbines made with magazine hangers as opposed to barrel bands.

I am a little confused by your reprint of the OP's pic of his front sight, which you label as "a Model 1892/92 Rifle (model) front sight:"

[smokeywolf]

OK, it seems that only the '92 carbines chambered for 38-40 and 44-40 used the barrel band forward of the front sight. As far as I can tell, all the 32-20 and 25-20 carbines utilized the magazine hanger.

It was a good day. I learned something.

Thanks for adding that pic pietro.

[pietro]

.

My label was for the pic below my comment, I just forgot to add "(below)" to my comment.

Thanks for bringing my lapse to my attention - I just "fixed" (edited) it.


.

[smokeywolf]

No problem pietro. And thanks to you I'm just a little better educated today than I was yesterday. The main purpose of the cast boolits forum.

[gbehrman]

Over the last three months or so I have been watching a Model 92 in the back of LGS; tag says M92 made in 1926 38-40cal. No price. It has a button mag and rifle stock. Finally got the owner to talk and as we looked it over saw no caliber marking on barrel and no other markings.????? I negotiated price at $400 and bought a box of 38-40 marked $83.99 (ugh) owner let me have ammo for $50. Got home and 38-40 would not fit. 32-20 would not fit.??? Now what. So I happened to have a dummy 38spl. round. It fits. Wow now I try a .357 and it fits. Shoots good, first 357 conversion I ever saw. Then sold the box of 38-40 to a buddy for 50$ so rightfully so I am a happy camper.

[smokeywolf]

Sounds to me like it might be worth your while to do a chamber cast.

Not only will that verify cartridge/caliber, but will give some idea as to best boolit dia.